/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16427227]

Utterly, and I mean UTTERLY, based

[Anonymous No.16427496]

Finished reading it two hours ago, my heart is still beating like mad. Outright psychedelic experience. When Aljosha cried from joy, I cried from joy, this book made me realize that life is good. No matter how life is, life is good.

[Anonymous No.16427703]

>>16427496
>Aljosha
?

[Anonymous No.16427709]

>>16427496
>psychedelic
also ?

[Anonymous No.16427748]

When I finished it I was also ecstatic, incredible book and characters

[Anonymous No.16427763]

>>16427496
>>16427748
>the part at the very end where whiskbroom sprinkles bread over his sons grave so the sparrows will keep him company after he leaves

[Anonymous No.16427783]

>the speech at the stone
brehs...

[Anonymous No.16428083]

>>16427763
Why are birds so cute? They're literally tiny flying dinosaurs that shit over anything, they have no business being so adorable!

[Anonymous No.16428106]

>>16428083
I like English barn owls the most
What’s your favorite bird fren?

[Anonymous No.16428184]

>>16427703
>>16427709
did you even read the book
>>16427783
hurrah

[Anonymous No.16428215]

>>16428083
I like how weird they act. Also while watching them they seem to be fairly intelligent when they look back at you but that could be me anthropomorphizing them

[Anonymous No.16428612]

>Ivan talking with the devil
too fucking kino

[Anonymous No.16429049]

>>16428106
I really don't have a favorite, I pretty much like them all. I'm a cityfag, so I've only really seen European robins, thrushes, blackbirds, pigeons, mourning doves, crows, magpies, sparrows, seagulls, and just once a hawk, more or less up close. Owls are adorable with their big eyes: https://youtu.be/FC4vbwE0OQc

>>16428215
Some birds are definitely smart enough to remember human faces, and will recognize you even though you change clothes. I know crows can (https://youtu.be/bOkj7lJpeoc)), and it seems like pigeons too can recognize you. Parrots too are pretty clever.

And outside of birds, I've read that jumping spiders have great vision, compared to other spiders, and as a result tend to be more clever in their hunting strategy (they don't just set up a web and wait until it jiggles, they actually chase and ambush their prey), and there's a study that claims that they even have different personalities and approaches to hunting. Though you're right about anthropomorphizing them, it's all too tempting, especially if you keep an animal as a pet...

I wonder if pets that are social animals in the wild recognize you as "one of them", albeit a weird-shaped one, or whether they really don't care, and just accept you into their group because you're nice to them. I wonder, because animals of very different species can bond and get along. For example...

- Cats and dogs can be very willing to play together: https://youtu.be/iriBuIunNYM
- Ferrets (and rats too, I've read) will consider part of their social group: https://youtu.be/OcCRZkeqFY8
- Pigeons can enjoy being petted by humans/think of them as their mates, and dogs can be tremendously jealous: https://youtu.be/itVzolHZt8E
- Geese and some other animals can imprint on humans, and think of you as their parent.

But it really makes you wonder up to what degree the genuinely get along, or whether it's just us thinking that they're behaving in a human-like manner. For example, I've read that pigs tend to be smarter than dogs, so it makes you wonder: do they see dogs as "pets" too?

But then again, intelligence is a hard thing to pin down. I've read that mice are just as capable of solving problems as rats are, it's just that we were being unfair to mice because we were using tests designed for rats for them (https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/10/rats-arent-smarter-than-mice-and-that-actually-matters/381430/).).

Rats and mice, despite looking similar, split ~20 million years ago (https://www.researchgate.net/post/When_did_rat_and_mouse_diverge)), while we split from chimpanzees about 7~10 million years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee%E2%80%93human_last_common_ancestor#Age_estimates).).

But in the end it doesn't really matter, as long as I can pet them and they enjoy it, it's enough for me.

[Anonymous No.16429054]

>>16427227
base and mean indeed

[Anonymous No.16429061]

I just finished reading the fifth chapter I think. Where they meet the elder zassimo and he consoles the peasant woman. What u anons like about this book. I’m a young anon

[Anonymous No.16429086]

What translation are you all reading? I have the Constant Garnett and fuck me it's a slog

[Anonymous No.16429101]

>>16429086
P and v

[Anonymous No.16429129]

>>16429049
Pretty autistic post but still very interesting.

[Anonymous No.16429141]

>In the light of the historical development of artistic vision, Dostoyevsky is a very fascinating phenomenon. If you examine closely any of his works, say ''The Brothers Karamazov,'' you will note that the natural background and all things relevant to the perception of the senses hardly exist. What landscape there is is a landscape of ideas, a moral landscape. The weather does not exist in his world, so it does not much matter how people dress.

>It is questionable whether one can really discuss the aspects of ''realism'' or of ''human experience'' when considering an author whose gallery of characters consists almost exclusively of neurotics and lunatics. Besides all this, Dostoyevsky's characters have yet another remarkable feature: Throughout the book they do not develop as personalities. We get them all complete at the beginning of the tale, and so they remain without any considerable changes, although their surroundings may alter and the most extraordinary things may happen to them.

>Dostoyevsky as we know is a great seeker after truth, a genius of spiritual morbidity, but as we also know he is not a great writer in the sense Tolstoy, Pushkin and Chekhov are. And, I repeat, not because the world he creates is unreal -all the worlds of writers are unreal - but because it is created too hastily without any sense of that harmony and economy which the most irrational masterpiece is bound to comply with (in order to be a masterpiece).

[Anonymous No.16429157]

>>16429129
I've always had a suspicion I may be on the spectrum... should I try and find out, or is it better to stay ignorant and think I'm just a loner/weirdo?

[Anonymous No.16429165]

>>16427763
Why didn't they let whiskbroom bury his kid by the rock? Also did Kolya murder him by hiding away Perezvon for so long?

[Anonymous No.16429208]

I really really liked brothers karamazov, and it inspired me to read more Dostoevsky. I made it through crime and punishment, but ended up stuck with Demons. At some point his writing is just very clearly the 19th century version of a russian sitcom and I'm just kind of over the schizophrenic character plots of a whole phone book of slavic one-offs

[Anonymous No.16429218]

>>16429049
Based bird poster. When I was a boy the house I grew up in was in a bird sanctuary. We had to have a certain number and type of tree in our yard, and we saw every bird native to Pennsylvania over the years. Now I live near a few nature preserves where I hike and spend my lunch breaks. You’re not autistic.

[Anonymous No.16429222]

This book has me considering my own religious beliefs a lot. If God is not real, then everything is permitted. There is no grounding for morality and there is no real reason to act virtuous when we know there will be no practical benefit from it. In the book, this is exemplified by Ivan taking the stand knowing that nobody would believe him, knowing that it would probably hurt his reputation, but doing it anyway for the sake of virtue. Without God, this act is absurd. However, I also have a hard time acting virtuously because there is a God. Is it not base to only do the right thing because some force expects it of us? Acting with virtue only because God is present seems like a child that does his chores just because his parents force him. The child is not actually responsible, he just fears punishment. I am not actually virtuous. I just fear God. That bothers me. I was wondering if anyone else had a different way of looking at it that might help me?

[Anonymous No.16429239]

>>16429061
Every scene with the dad is pure kino

[Anonymous No.16429256]

>>16429222
how old are you

[Anonymous No.16429258]

>>16429086
Not P&V.

[Anonymous No.16429265]

>>16429256
Why so you can call me a brainlet for having thoughts you had when you were 16?

[Anonymous No.16429278]

>>16429265
Not him, check out portrait of the artist as a young man, it’s about a boy then later young man living in a series of Christian boarding schools who had similar queries to yours.

[Anonymous No.16429282]

>>16429278
Alright thanks, I'll check it out

[Anonymous No.16429292]

>>16429265
Yes. And so I can continue to develop my profile on the average Dostoevsky poster.

[Anonymous No.16429404]

>>16429282
No problem man, tbk and Portrait are great explorations of Christianity from a very specific, very real point of view

[Anonymous No.16429438]

>>16429222
From the actual christian point of view god is the only way to good and virtue. When you act virtuos you recognize it hecause you are made in his image and long for your state prior to the fall.

Its not a matter of "do this or be punished" its more "do this or you will be pinishing yourself unnecessarily" even the idea of hell from the orthodox stand point is man choosing to be seperated from god which in turn means seperation from good.

[Anonymous No.16429470]

>>16429438
That is helpful thanks.

[Anonymous No.16429714]

>>16429218
That sounds extremely comfy... did you have a birdbath? It's adorable when birds go in the water and splash around. They actually seem cleaner than many other animals, who do all sorts of nasty things, like dogs when they roll in poop.

When I was younger, we rescued a bird. It didn't live long, and I wanted to bury it outside, but when my dad saw me and asked me what I was doing he told me I was a retard, and that I should get back inside, and that our neighbors would laugh if they saw me, lmao. I get his intentions, but he could've handled it a little bit better, with less shouting...

Lately I've been wanting to go out and befriend the local pigeons, and listen to their cooing. I know it's silly, and everyone thinks they're filthy and dumb and flying rats, and they shit on cars and people and whatnot. But I've had several dreams about feeding, and even petting one, all out of the blue. I starting reading about them on the internet, and about how there's a lot of misconceptions about them, and the more I read, the more I become fascinated with them.

It's weird how we've been living together for millennia, they saved numerous lives during the world wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_pigeon, they were even awarded medals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickin_Medal)) and now we just think of them as pests. It's unfair to ditch our birdbros all of a sudden.

>>16429222
>I am not actually virtuous. I just fear God. That bothers me. I was wondering if anyone else had a different way of looking at it that might help me?
I'm not too religious, so please take what I say with a grain of salt. I think you sort of answered your own question: you "just fear" God. But do you always need the threat of his presence, to "just fear" him, in order to do the right thing? I suppose that it's not necessarily bad to say that you would, as long as your fear of him will serve you as "training wheels" for your morality.

Ultimately, humans have free will, and are creatures of habit. I'm sure God would know about human nature, given that he's created us and all. As such, you can choose to sin/not be virtuous: and God knows that can happen. You can choose to continue to not be virtuous, and make a habit of it: and God knows that can happen too. But I think that ultimately, what God expects of you, is for you to stop being not virtuous.

If you need to be afraid of him to change, so be it. It may not be the ideal way, and neither of you is going to particularly enjoy it, but it's one way. What's important is that you don't give up your free will, and that you remember that you always have the choice to be moral. Ultimately, you should learn and *internalize* that being virtuous is the right thing to do, and do it out of the goodness of your heart. But now you could say, "am I still not doing these things mechanically, no longer out of fear, but because I've conditioned myself to be virtuous?" (cont.)

[Anonymous No.16429865]

>>16429222
>>16429714
I suppose that the difference between the two is that no longer doing things out of fear requires you to exercise your free will. First you have to break the habit of defaulting to the non-virtuous action, which denies you any choice. And then, you have to make a new habit of asking yourself, "what would the virtuous action be?"

You're no longer acting mechanically, you're asking yourself to at the very least, consider not to do something that isn't virtuous. And you should be doing it not because you fear what God may do to you if you don't, but because you were given the ability to recognize what is immoral and what isn't. I suppose that in most cases, the "immoral" choice will bring you immediate material benefit; but the "moral" choice will let your conscience rest easy at night.

[Anonymous No.16430220]

just got to the part where Mitya shows up at the inn and the dude cheats him at cards and gets kicked out. pretty good book so far and im seriously curious to see where it goes so i should probably stop browsing and pick it up I guess

[Anonymous No.16430256]

>>16429049
absolutely based post

[Anonymous No.16430357]

Like 6 years ago I used to read this book on a solitary forest way far from where I live, used to pack all of my things, 3L of water, a little of bread and butter, peanuts, tea or coffee, and sometimes I cooked anything like rice with chicken and put it on a Taper box to eat alone on my on, used to spent approximately ten to twelve hours on the woods, and i was just there , breathing and reading, before reading this book for the first time i was on a deep depression that fucked me over from a very long time, decided to pick this book and be my ''first brick book'' to read, changed me in a way that anything besides religion would give me, on 4chan's lingo; Doomer to Bloomer. If i have someday a kid , at a certain age I would give him the same copy of the book that I read almost once a year. Whatever anons, we all going to make it.

[Anonymous No.16430498]

>>16427227
Reddit post

[Anonymous No.16430591]

>When Aljosha cried from joy, I cried from joy, this book made me realize that life is good. No matter how life is, life is good.

[Anonymous No.16430601]

>>16430591
sad

[Anonymous No.16430626]

>>16429222
God in his entirety is a red herring. The only thing that matters is the subjective experience of pain or pleasure. That being said, there are massively complex calculations to be made in regard to long term/short term benefits, not to mention the fact that, due to the principle of synergy, working with other people brings greater return on investment than purely working alone. This means that traditional moral maxims tend to be reliable, but need to be measured by their effectiveness in achieving the most desirable outcomes possible. There is a reason reciprocity has been proven to be a massive evolutionary winner; it works. When you see someone down on their luck, help them, that way when you are down on your luck, someone will help you.

If this sounds cold and calculating, it's because the oldest and most animal part of your brain has a sentimental view of morality which doesn't like when the newest, and more reasonable part of your brain actually thinks through the foundation of morality and it's application. Reason, however, is far superior to sentimental morality, in fact, the only possible way to refute reasoned morality is to reason against it e.g. "sentimental morality cannot be corrupted by selfishness" which is obviously a reasonable criticism, not against reasoning, but against the corruption of reason.

[Anonymous No.16431030]

Which translation would be the best for a brainlet?

[Anonymous No.16431033]

>>16427227
i bought this recently but i'm reading the idiot rn and then i'll read crime and punishment and then this

[Anonymous No.16431045]

>>16431030
Fellow brainlet. P&V is very readable

[Anonymous No.16431069]

>>16429061
I too didn’t comprehend the fuss while I was in the middle. The build up is heavy but it all comes together into a huge woah. Also, be aware of the great inquisitor. I skimmed through it because I was too focused on finishing it rather than enjoying it

[Anonymous No.16431086]

If Im Polish, should i read russian lit in English or in Polish, which is a slavic language?

[Anonymous No.16431099]

>>16431045
Thank you brainlet

[Anonymous No.16431165]

>This book has me considering my own religious beliefs a lot. If God is not real, then everything is permitted. There is no grounding for morality and there is no real reason to act virtuous when we know there will be no practical benefit from it. In the book, this is exemplified by Ivan taking the stand knowing that nobody would believe him, knowing that it would probably hurt his reputation, but doing it anyway for the sake of virtue. Without God, this act is absurd. However, I also have a hard time acting virtuously because there is a God. Is it not base to only do the right thing because some force expects it of us? Acting with virtue only because God is present seems like a child that does his chores just because his parents force him. The child is not actually responsible, he just fears punishment. I am not actually virtuous. I just fear God. That bothers me. I was wondering if anyone else had a different way of looking at it that might help me?

[Anonymous No.16431169]

>>16431086
Skip reading books, become the owner of an underground gambling club for Russian Hussars.

[Anonymous No.16431181]

Thought I might as well ask this here.

I'm thinking about attending a russian orthodox Church, do I need to speak Russian to do so?

[Anonymous No.16431189]

>>16428083
youre too young for this book
>>16427227
ya it rules

[Anonymous No.16431210]

>>16431165
faggot

[Anonymous No.16431211]

>>16431181
hahahahah

[Anonymous No.16431214]

>>16431211
faggot

[Anonymous No.16431215]

>>16431211
They do the liturgy in Russian no? How the fuck am I going to follow along?

[Anonymous No.16431223]

>>16431181
no not really, just tell them you really dig the icons that OrthoTradGroyper1389 keeps bosting on his twitter acc and repeat BEGOME five times

[Anonymous No.16431231]

>>16431223
I know its some what of a meme but I genuinely do have interest in the faith, I come form an Anglican family and fell out of the faith and have been slowly returning to it on a personal level but would like to begin attending a church once more.

[Anonymous No.16431282]

>>16428612
best part of the book - especially the parable of the man wandering in darkness

[Anonymous No.16431294]

the bland inquisitor

[Anonymous No.16431307]

>>16427227
this was so incredibly boring

[Anonymous No.16431337]

>>16431086
If you can read Russian very! well, read the original. Otherwise, read in Polish. English is just too different and can't keep similar style

[Anonymous No.16431419]

>>16429222
>However, I also have a hard time acting virtuously because there is a God. Is it not base to only do the right thing because some force expects it of us? Acting with virtue only because God is present seems like a child that does his chores just because his parents force him. The child is not actually responsible, he just fears punishment. I am not actually virtuous. I just fear God. That bothers me. I was wondering if anyone else had a different way of looking at it that might help me?
I think you should see it in the angle that God is the most virtuous being in all of existence, and he watches over you, bringing you comfort knowing that as you act in virtue you make your father happy.

[Anonymous No.16431437]

>>16430626
>Reason, however, is far superior to sentimental morality
Morality transcends logic and reason, Jesus Christ never acted in reason, he acted on good and virtue. Kant is an autist.

[Anonymous No.16431443]

>>16431231
You shouldn't read Dostoevsky's comparisons of Western and Eastern Christianity literally. He criticized a secular Modern man, which in Russia appeared from the West along with “the progress”, so the answer to that, and to the church that allowed that, was, obviously, in “native faith”. Russian Orthodox church, officially a part of the empire state, could also be blamed for some of the very similar ills, but you simply couldn't criticize it in anything printed in Russian Empire.

If you think that faith can be found in a specific building, why do you read Dostoevsky?

[Anonymous No.16431445]

>>16431307
That's a shame, you should crawl back to /sffg/

[Anonymous No.16431463]

>>16430626
"Reasoned morality" is pure autism and counterintuitive to virtue.

[Anonymous No.16431488]

>>16431463
Either you reason what "virtue" is or you accept it from an authority. Will you decide for yourself, or follow like a child?

[Anonymous No.16431541]

>>16431488
I have reasoned that virtue is virtue by the power of divine creation and decree.

[Anonymous No.16431557]

>>16431337
>got Brothers Karamazov from sister for my birthday
>polish version has Great Inquisitor chapter removed as well some random tidbits about polish drunks etc. that are in the original
Tie me to a missile and fire me at Warsaw, I'm ready

[Anonymous No.16431561]

>>16431541
>I've reasoned that other people's claims about divinity are true and adopted those claims as my own virtue
If someone convinced you it was a divine decree to carry out genocide, you would. Talk about pure autism and counterintuitive to virtue. A slave to theocratic totalitarianism. Sad.

[Anonymous No.16431567]

>>16431215
I'm an American convert. The service is in Church Slavonic. Ideally you should go to an English speaking service in ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.) I'm learning Russian on the side but it's temporary until I move somewhere where the service is in English. Obviously you won't understand the liturgy but you can still appreciate its beauty. You can't be a catachumen for a priest that doesn't speak the same language as you

[Anonymous No.16431570]

>>16428184
there is no Aljosha in the book that i read
and there is nothing psychedelic in the book that i read

[Anonymous No.16431597]

>>16431561
>>I've reasoned that other people's claims about divinity are true and adopted those claims as my own virtue
>I've reasoned that other people's claims about virtue without divinity are true and adopted those claims as my own virtue.

[Anonymous No.16431604]

>>16431557
HAHA censorship in Eastern Europe?
that sounds really Unpolished desu

[Anonymous No.16431619]

>>16427227
what was lisa's problem? did ivan rape her?

[Anonymous No.16431642]

>>16429208
he was published in newspapers periodically, so it makes sense that it reads like sitcom

[Anonymous No.16431648]

>>16431086
don't, in all Dostoevsky books polish people are seen as thieves and scoundrels

[Anonymous No.16431650]

>>16431648
well, he wasn't exactly wrong

[Anonymous No.16431655]

>>16431557
The Demons also has usually a removed chapter everywhere, about some rape thing