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16404671 No.16404671 [Reply] [Original]

Neoplatonism is the only theological system that makes sense.

>> No.16404705
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16404705

>>16404671
Thats where you're wrong, kiddo

>> No.16404737

>>16404671
>theology
>system
thats their flaw

>> No.16405076 [DELETED] 
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[ERROR]

>I mistrust all systematizers amd I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity.

>> No.16405093
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16405093

>I mistrust all systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity.

>> No.16405130

>>16404705
thats St Athanasius not Valentinus

>> No.16405177

>>16404671
so what church do you practice under?

>> No.16405194
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16405194

>>16404671
Sorry I prefer Plato to Neoplatonism, as much as I appreciate and admire the latter; and Christianity first.

As a good Heideggerian, I am a closet Catholic.

>> No.16405241
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16405241

>>16405093
Crypto-systematician

>> No.16405401

>>16405194
Neoplatonism is just esoteric platonism, which wasn't accecable back in the plato days

>> No.16406657

>>16404671
Been studying Neoplatonism for a while now and I honestly do not even understand why there was any philosophy after this. They solved everything. They gave the most thoughtful accounts of ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, aesthetics, and everything else philosophy could ever hope to provide.

Consider me officially on team pagang.

>> No.16406826

>>16406657
>pagang
The Neoplatonic initiatory lineage only survives within Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Sufi Islam. The pagan line died with Damascius.

>> No.16406869

>>16406826
If initiation means the initiation into a midwit version of Neoplatonism then consider me forever uninitiated.
>tfw uninitiated into the pagan line of Damascius
feelsgoodman

>> No.16406877

>>16405093
nice system
>>16405241
this. based.

>> No.16406898
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16406898

>exile Neoplatonists
>get a plague

>> No.16407290

>>16406826
Based Jung was initiated by Shankaracharya through visions and dreams. Read his Memories, Dreams, and Reflections. We won't be discouraged by your bland doomerposting.

>> No.16407300

>>16407290
I'm not doomerposting if I'm pointing out that you can seek initiation into a metaphysical system without having to resurrect an ancient system with forgotten rituals.

>> No.16407308

>>16407300
>only salvation lies with abrahamist trash
Fuck off

>> No.16407317

>>16407308
idk what your heritage is, but do you have any proof that Plotinus would have been particularly hostile to Eastern Med groups such as Levantines ?

>> No.16407340

>>16407317
Probably the part where you have to join the globalist, iconoclasm-enthusiast gang. There's literally no reason to worship Yhwh unless you are a jew, in which case I wish you good luck in your next life. Read From Yahweh to Zion by Guyenot. Judaism and its mutant children (Christianity and Islam) are pure evil.

>> No.16407344

>>16404671
Yah, we know, thats why pretty much every western and middle eastern theology is some branch of neoplatonism.

>> No.16407350

>>16407340
you're a larper who gave no real evidence that plotinus the greek would have been particularly hostile to the jews or arabs, and that he would have favored the germanics over them.

>> No.16407365

>>16407350
>you're a larper
That is true, I play Amtgard.

>who gave no real evidence that plotinus the greek would have been particularly hostile to the jews or arabs, and that he would have favored the germanics over them.
This is also true, I never gave any such evidence because I don't fucking care. Go cut off your foreskin, creep.

>> No.16407367

>>16407350
All well-reasoned men are hostile to Christianity. Plotinus was well-reasoned. Therefore he would have been hostile to Christianity.

Plotinus does not eat the crumbs that falls off a random ethnics table.

>> No.16407373

>>16407367
>All well-reasoned men are hostile to Christianity.
retarded LARP. nuff said.

>> No.16407378

>>16407367
>All well-reasoned men are hostile to Christianity
This statement is in no way Apodictic. and you trying to present it as such implies you to be not well-reasoned.

>> No.16407381

>>16407373
You don't even know how the term "LARP" came to describe radical posters on the Internet. You are a newfag parading around like you're hot shit because you found /pol/ in 2015. Kill yourself nigger.

>> No.16407398

>>16407381
the other didint quite have the correct context to use LARP, even if your general discourse indicates that it could be a strong possibility. You are kinda projecting too though with a similar amount grasping at straws.

>> No.16407405

>>16407398
He's larping in the sense that "All well-reasoned men are hostile to Christianity" is such a stupid statement that everyone knows it's false, and to say something like that is a role play. I don't care how much he fakes it, he knows it's role play deep down.

>> No.16407406
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16407406

>>16407398
Shut the fuck up.

>> No.16407417

>>16407378
We're all just messing with you and you could have avoided it if you didn't feel it necessary to preach your Christianity in every thread about Platonism.

Yes yes we know you think Platonism has polished up Christianity reaaaaaaaaal good but some of us would rather just go with Platonism than whatever it managed to polish. You see a polished turd, the rest of us just see a turd.

>> No.16407420

>>16407405
We are multiple people btw

>> No.16407439

>>16407417
sorry buddy if you want to talk about neoplatonism than someone will bring up the living traditions of which it's imbued in. Hey, he also said that Islam itself woudl qualify.

>> No.16407441

>>16407417
I did not say as such and am not christian. I just said your argument was retarded.

>> No.16407442

>>16405093
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read

>> No.16407470

>>16407439
>Hey, he also said that Islam itself woudl qualify.
That is just a way for him to seem less preachy. If someone would have gone with the Sufi alternative then he would have gone right into why Christianity is superior in every way.

/lit/ decided that we must mock his weak attempts at blending Christianity with Neoplatonism and I'm just trying to do my part. We must all pitch in.

>> No.16407512

>>16407470
He's right though.

>> No.16407607

>>16407340
>>16407365
>>16407367
Platonism is of eastern origin so it is completely unreasonable to dismiss its pervasive force in it, mainly in Plotinus, Iamblichus and Damascius. It is obvious that these people lack even a superficial understanding of what Platonism, Christianity, Islam and the ancient faith of the Hebrews are. The religion of the Jews is closer to your pagan phantasy grounded on political interests, evident in ethnocentrism, than to Platonism, Christianity and Islam, These latter ones have universalist theologies (you know this but in your blind hatred you draw it to a political analogue, surreptitously showing your inclinations off), which is still not restricted to these for it is also a thing in Buddhism. Iconoclasm is something rejected by christian creed, iconography has always been part of Christianity, the Son is the Image of God. Read John Damascius on it and Leonid Ouspensky on the millenary tradition of orthodox iconography.
>Worship Yhwh
Christians worship the Triune God. Do you know anything about Christianity? It seems you know as much about it as you know about Platonism.

>Plotinus was well-reasoned.
I agree, at last, with you. And for this reason we know he had his will directed to the true One God more than to principles clothed as ethnic deities.
''On the day of the New-Moon and other holy-days, and once asked Plotinus to join in some such celebration: Plotinus refused: ''It is for those beings come to me, not for me to go to them''.

>> No.16407644

>>16406869
You don't know the relevance of initiation and what it means, do you? If you had read any platonic text you would know that platonism (philosophy) is itself an imitation of the ancient Mysteries. Late platonists even attempted to incorporate the initiatory practice out of the intellectual to the practical locus of being.

>> No.16407671

>>16407442
have you read any other nitzsche?

>> No.16408970

Where do i start with neoplatonism? Has anyone got a chart or something?

>> No.16409002
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16409002

No.

>> No.16409035
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16409035

>>16404671
Christian platonism is the only theological system that makes sense

>> No.16409044

>>16408970
I've found the Enneads to be surprisingly easier to understand than the Republic. Just start with the sources.

>> No.16409084

>>16407644
as plotinus himself says, you can initiate yourself through meditative practice

>> No.16409196

>>16409002
based
But in a way, both systems share an “emanation” principle (which Spinoza describes as modes and affects) and almost the same epistemology. The big differences would be that Spinoza doesn’t recognize god as “good”, and there’s only one substance.

>> No.16409244

>>16407607
>Christians worship the Triune God
Huge cope. This is why nobody takes christianity seriously any more.

>> No.16409271

>>16407607
>Plotinus refused: ''It is for those beings come to me, not for me to go to them.
Yes he was in communion with them already. Absolutely based and polytheist.
>the true One God more than to principles clothed as ethnic deities.
Which is why.... he would have been worshipping the God of the Jews? lel

>> No.16409487

>>16409271
>it is for those beings to COME to me
>communion
why would i even talk to someone who can't read? also check what the word henotheism means and start reading plotinus

>>16409244
great answer, you don't know what christianity is. for the basics: christians believe the trinity and christ were manifest in many passages of the ot.

>> No.16409563

>>16409487
>>it is for those beings to COME to me
>I s-swear god changed his mind and now he's a god for everyone! d-don't mind the old testament!
>start reading plotinus
I have. Hence the polytheism.

>> No.16409613

>>16409563
you don't even know what a verb (come) means, how would you understand anything plotinus wrote? do you know how to read? no wonder what you say has no compatibility with platonism, lol

>> No.16409682
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16409682

>>16405093
>>16404737
The system of Neoplatonism is its nonsystem, half the time, even Proclus (the worst offender of systematization) embraced the true unintelligibility of the Good. Why we have a word for the sphere of the "intelligible". Damascius brought back the paradoxes of Plotinus and the Mysteries of Iamblichus.

>> No.16409704

>>16409613
lol

>> No.16410129
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16410129

>>16407607
>Platonism is of eastern origin

>> No.16410144

>>16410129
>what is pythagoreanism, orphism
at least read iamblichus

>> No.16410156

>>16404671
if it makes sense then why do all of the Neoplatonists disagree with eachother?

>QED

>> No.16410239
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16410239

ITT: People who think you can be "initiated" by dreams like "based" Jung, people who think any of the Abrahamic religions offer a "living tradition" (LOL) and people who think Plotinus loved to suck off Christians.

>> No.16410284
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16410284

>>16409084
which includes studying all of Plato, and the Platonists and the myths, as well as Physics (nature) and Logic, and preferably also some artform or math. These are all contemplation. The true artist doesn't even need contemplation to reach the Beautiful, their attuned senses are already connected with their higher self compared to most others, it is similar to the willingly descended poet from whom inspiration flows out of like a window to heaven. The artist is also similar to how Plotinus one day at age 27 suddenly needed philosophy and went around the city looking for the truth and could easily discern the charlatans (almost everyone) until he found Saccas whose words were the most exceptional music.
Also why art (like statues and icons of the gods) is sacred, the artist is linked to Apollo (most of the time unwittingly) and what they the shape is shaped by the hands of God.

>>16410144
>egypt
>eastern origin
>Augustine, Civ. 10.32 reports (triumphantly) that Porphyry concluded his De regressu with the statement that he had been unable to discover any philosophical or religious sect offering a satisfactory “universal way” for the liberation of the soul, having explored “true philosophy,” the “ethics and disciplines of the Indians,” and the “inductio of the Chaldaeans.” On this see Smith (1974, 136–41). Iamblichus claims to be able to show Porphyry the Way of Hermes, revealed by Ammon and interpreted by Bitys, at Myst. VIII.5.267.11–268.1; cf. X.7, this in response to Porphyry’s demand for the answer to salvation to be revealed according to the Egyptian Way
>So forget these conjectures, which fall short of the truth, “whether he who is invoked is either an Egyptian, or uses Egyptian speech.” Far better to understand this: that since the Egyptians were the first to be granted participation with gods, the gods when invoked rejoice in the rites of the Egyptians.

>> No.16410410
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16410410

>>16410156
>why do all of the Neoplatonists disagree with eachother?
they don't, and even then we don't hold any one man (except Plato, but who has to be interpreted) to be correct in everything he says.
That all the 'philosophers' disagree is ancient christian midwit propaganda.
Proclus system is a systematization, it goes without saying that such extreme specificality brings with it some problems when put under extreme scrutiny, even if Damascius agrees with everything Proclus says he adds necessary qualities, buts and ifs, to the terms that show that what Proclus established in the Elements of Theology (his first work which he wrote at like age 25) can't be used as dogma but introduction to thinking. Eveything Damascius postulates can be derived from Proclus, the latter was just not as willing to throw an eye into the abyss; to hand-feed you: Proclus like Aristotle sacrificed higher truth to perfectly number the orders of the spheres [Being], while the others sacrificed clarity and some sanity to reach beyond the spinning wheel.
Other Platonists like Ammonius was a teacher and what we have from him are the works of his students writing down his lectures, which were obviously simplified, but there are echoes in his works of even 'higher philosophy'. The Athens-Alexandria split is a bit overblown, just as the differences between the philosophers are overblown by modern academicians who abhor paradox (like Aristotle) "everything must be logical". Olympiodorus talks about building defensive walls when speaking too openly would only get you killed for nothing (he was practically the last public non-christian), this is likely reflected in his works.

>> No.16410457

>>16410284
Egypt is not eastern? Phoenicians, Chaldeans and other near-eastern theopoeses are not eastern?

>> No.16410467

How does nonmaterial consciousness interact with a material body? How come blows to the head, drug abuse, etc. impact your nonmaterial conscious and ability to recollect what was already in your soul?

>> No.16410496

Where is a good place to start with neoplatonism after finishing all of Plato. I was about to start the enneads but not sure if I should read other stuff before

>> No.16410500
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16410500

>> No.16410506

>>16410457
Egypt wasn't Eastern for a thousand years. Read a book. What even are the Ptolemaic and Roman eras? Egypt was only "re-Easternised" with the Islamic conquests and even then Islam could appreciate the operations of intelligent scholarship, so its Neoplatonist academy remained open centuries after the Greeks closed theirs.

>> No.16410540

>>16410457
Your describing Mediterranean

>> No.16410547
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16410547

>>16410457
no?
If not for Islam these would all be counted with The West, but we're not talking about shit from the past 1000 years.
The east begins/began east of Taurus mountains and Caspian sea.

Also Orpheus was from Thrace.

>> No.16410560

no theology makes sense, because reality *is*, and that is sensorial and therefore apparent.

Plato's realm of Forms is not the original myth of western thinking. Objectivity is

The Realm of Forms is simply Mind; it's like space wherein all phenomena occur, yet it is incomprehensible (even apparently, unlike all apparent objects which are both epistemically and ontologically ofc; noumenon)

and unrepresentable

Reality is ineffable, simplicity is profound

Awareness is the absolute

Hegel was correct in so far as he knew he did not understand a self. He was his awareness, not a particular partition of it called Memory, abstracted and hypostasised into history, and then further into a self, and then further into a philosophy.

Ideas do not exist; they're the original subject of that original myth I spoke at the beginning about. You've only ever sensed thought, there's no such thing as an idea ^_^

If you interpret this as nihilism, that nothing therefore exists, or as solipsism to assert that Mind only exists, you're wrong in either case, that is merely a sense: it's subsidiary to awareness. Appearance as action (cause-effect) is utterly ineffable: Mind is the hypothetical divine plan

we are being. not Being

There's no absolute which is substantial, it is non-conceptual reality. Reality is not an assertion

sense is *not* made, it's perceived by Awareness ^_^

imagination is like vulcan; he's only making waves in water however

>> No.16410577
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16410577

>>16410560

>> No.16410608

>>16410467
You are conflating nonmaterial consciousness with material functions available to consciousness. Obviously, the material body is an important vessel for immaterial consciousness without which interaction with the material world becomes impossible.
>>16410560
>no theology makes sense, because reality *is*, and that is sensorial and therefore apparent.
Right, so just because you sense a reality, you therefore conclude that only what you can sense counts as reality and things you can't sense aren't real? Brilliant.

>> No.16410683
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16410683

>>16410467
Through the semi-material (semi-bodily*), obviously, matter is in every sphere, we just call the matter of Body as 'matter-matter' because it is the least intelligible matter, since having to in every sentence add that Soul is matter to the Intellect or Intellect is matter to the One would be quite vexatious. Matter is the indefinite dyad in an deprived way, or rather in a pre-provided way, before the Eye eternally looks.
One can dare to postulate that the journey of 'Soul' in the Mone-Prodoos-Epistrophe is the whole of being, that Body is the initial stage of illumination of the Indefinite Dyad by the Monad into the One-Being/Intellect.

>> No.16410776
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16410776

>>16410467
>>16410683
also
>how does the the pupil see color when there's no color in the eye?
Matter interacts with the Form BECAUSE it is matter and has no form.
The soul isn't absolutely simple, the body is part of our 'soul' (our self). Matter-body-irrational soul-dianoetic soul-eye of the soul-intellect/nous. When we look into the indefinite our utterly intelligible is fragmented and parts of our soul becomes body, our body.
This is the microcosm and macrocosm, our whole essence mirrors the whole of existence.

>> No.16410827

>>16410506
>Roman egypt
>thousand years

>''re-Easternised''
do you know what that prefix means?

So do you really think ancient egypt, ~5000BC to first century BC was western?

>>16410547
I mentioned platonism, pythagoreanism and orphism, why do you assume I was referring to AD egypt? My pointing to orphism was not referring to Orpheus' homeland (the same for pythagoras of SAMOS), but to their main influences: egyptian, phoenician and other near eastern theologies.

>>16410540
Yes, did you know mediterranean comprehends places like Syria, Israel?

>> No.16410851

>>16410827
When was Plotinus alive? 5000 BC? Come on now. At the time Plotinus was born, Egypt had been Greco-Roman for half a millennium.

>> No.16410866

>>16410851
can you read? seriously, can you? i am talking about platonic origins and influences.

>> No.16410879

>>16410851
oh also:
>~250 years
>half a millennium
you can't read and can't count.

>> No.16410887

>>16405093
based, from Twilight of the Idols if anyone is curious. but you cannot free yourself from systemizing completely, it must be impossible?

>> No.16410900

>>16407367
Christianity is not any different than the other ideologies, including the one you believe

>> No.16410916

>>16410866
>"I'm talking about Platonic origins and influences!"
>names three scholars all of whom lived after the 3rd century
>>16410879
>300 BC to 200 AD is 250 years
I feel bad for you.

>> No.16410925
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16410925

>>16410827
>Orpheus
>influences
The only influence on Orpheus was Apollo.
OK, I would say Egypt is Egypt and was neither eastern or western but just 'Egypt' it is a region if not a whole world in of itself. It's only eastern thanks to Islam which is 7th century not first.
And if we go the secular path then if you the Chaldeans/Akkadians eastern you have to call the Latin/Etruscan and Greek culture and myth eastern since Hesiod supposedly just imitated the Akkadian Theogony. How the Etruscan and Latin mythos also copied them is another whoops, because their mythos is also similar to the Akkadian/Assyrian/Chaldean. Or perhaps, unlike Jewish religious ethnocentrism, the gods Inspired the same truth to most people. Differences arise because, again, the gods inspire they don't compose the text word for word, likewise there are degrees to Noetic reach. What use are signs he can't read, or that the people can't grasp? There they receive as much as they can hold, or emphasizes the strengths of the culture communing. This is also why perennialism (and universalism) is untenable.

>> No.16410936

>>16410866
>>16410879
>Ptolemaic Egypt founded in 305BC
>Alexandria surrendered to the Muslims in 641AD
So that's 946 years. So, yeah, you're technically right, his claim about Egypt being part of the same socio-cultural-economic system as Europe for 1,000 years was incorrect, he was 5% wrong.

But then, you're also 100% wrong for thinking that Plato stole his doctrines and ideas from Egypt. 100%-5%=95%, so you're wrong. Provide a source showing that the doctrines of Plato can be found in Egypt before Plato was born, or we're just going to keep going with the historical consensus that has been in place since Plato was alive, which is that the Greeks attributed things to Egypt to make them seem old and wise and esoteric, just as we do now with Ancient Greece. If you cannot do this, shut the fuck up and go back to plebbit you illterate sperg.

>> No.16410980

>>16404671
Correct. I am with the Platonists. I say that without distinction from Plotinus, Plethon, or Thomas Taylor. The best sects that even came out of the Jewish religions are all attempts at syncretism with Platonism.

>> No.16411002
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16411002

>>16410925
Also
>>16410129
The pagan Slavic mythos is monarchical, a first cause, a God of God's who's also omnipresent.

>> No.16411006

On the topic of Orphism, why did a cult form around a guy who was noted for fucking up and dying in despair

>> No.16411026

>>16410936
>But then, you're also 100% wrong for thinking that Plato stole his doctrines and ideas from Egypt. 100%-5%=95%, so you're wrong. Provide a source showing that the doctrines of Plato can be found in Egypt before Plato was born, or we're just going to keep going with the historical consensus that has been in place since Plato was alive, which is that the Greeks attributed things to Egypt to make them seem old and wise and esoteric, just as we do now with Ancient Greece. If you cannot do this, shut the fuck up and go back to plebbit you illterate sperg.
Read James P. Allen's Genesis in Egypt.
If you understood Platonism you'd see the connection, while Allen argues the Bible is syncretism from Egyptian myth, one should rather observe that Platonism is the continuation of Egypt and that Christianity is a further multi stage corruption of Platonism.

>> No.16411038
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16411038

>>16407671
>In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am englightened by my intelligence.

>> No.16411043

>>16410916
>>16410936
You are dishonest and you know it. We were talking about Romanized egypt which was not a thing until the first century AD. End of story. Ptolemaic dynasty was not a Greco-Roman regime which was the one in discussion, you vermin.

>three scholars
Now Pythagoras, Iamblichus, Plotinus, Porphyry, Plato, Diogenes Laertius, Thomas Taylor and the Mysteries are not authorities on Platonism and its origins?

>Plato stole his doctrines and ideas from Egypt.
''Stole''. Read a book for once you animal.

>>16410925
>Apollo
hahahahahahahahahaha holy shit, you got me there, can't go further on your post, sorry.

>> No.16411051

>>16411006
>If you understood Platonism you'd see the connection, while Allen argues the Bible is syncretism from Egyptian myth, one should rather observe that Platonism is the continuation of Egypt and that Christianity is a further multi stage corruption of Platonism.
Holy shit the absolute state of modern academics

>> No.16411053

>>16411026
>muh AYYYY LMAOS BUILT THE PYRAMIDS
Right, we're going to continue believing the historical consensus that has been in place since the Greeks, and you're going to go take your meds.

>> No.16411059

>>16410608
there is no conclusion, because there is no why, only how

>> No.16411060

>>16411043
>>16411038

>> No.16411061

>>16411026
Agreed with the first half of your post.
>Christianity is a further multi stage corruption of Platonism.
Without Christianity there wouldn't be platonic writings and platonism would be even more dead than it is.

>> No.16411063

>>16411043
No, anon made his point pretty clear, you're the one misunderstanding him, just like you've misunderstood Plato. Actually, given that you haven't read Plato, I'm starting to think you didn't read anon's post at all. Take a breather, you're getting angry and making mistakes.

>> No.16411093

>>16411063
Go on and tell me where I misunderstood his posts and he didn't deviate from GRECO-ROMANIZATION of egypt to PTOLEMAIC EGYPT out of nowhere just not to admit he was wrong.

>Plato
we didn't even comment on Plato, are you retarded?

>> No.16411101

>>16411043
>Ptolemaic Egypt
>literally Greek Egypt
>not Greco-Roman
Holy shit what the fuck man
>Now Pythagoras, Iamblichus, Plotinus, Porphyry, Plato, Diogenes Laertius, Thomas Taylor and the Mysteries are not authorities on Platonism and its origins?
Oh, I'd love to see you argue how all of these are "Eastern".

>> No.16411105

>>16407607
This is really fucking cringe.
>>16408970
Obviously with Plato.
Pretty much everything Plato did, Plotinus, Proclus, Iamblichus.
>>16410936
Orientalists are fucking cancer.
They just want to concede to not reading. They claim they love Egypt so fucking much but won't even pick up a book to try and savor something of of its tradition preserved by a great man.

But as for you, lets not neglect the importance of Egypt, either. Greece and Egypt are very much related in a real way.

>> No.16411113

>>16411051
>>16411026
meant this for this
>>16411059
Clearly your "how" is extremely deficient because you couldn't even comprehend what I was telling you.

>> No.16411137

>>16411061
Without christianity there would be more platonic writings and Platonism would be even more alive than it is.

>> No.16411140

>>16411101
>names three scholars all of whom lived after 3rd century
>ow Pythagoras, Iamblichus, Plotinus, Porphyry, Plato, Diogenes Laertius, Thomas Taylor and the Mysteries are not authorities on Platonism and its origins?

you don't have a brain and you need to deviate from the main point of discussion that platonism (pythagoreanism, orphism and the other mysteries) is not original in content and has eastern origins. see how you accuse me now of saying that those were easterners when I already made it pretty clear that they vouched for the same origins of their doctrines as i am trying to tell you.

leave this thread.

>> No.16411141

>>16411061
Lol what.
Does this retarded faggot actually think only Christians read Plato. The Byzantines had a metric fuckload of straight up platoboo heretics and kept great libraries not because they were good Christians, but because it was their ethnic history as Greeks. The Catholic world magically is the only place that "lost" Plato for 1000 years before having it reintroduced to the Latin speaking world during the fall off the Byzantines.

Beside this, Plato consistently held a strong tradition in the Islamic world. If you knew fucking anything about this subject you'd at least have considered any of the philosophers in that part of the world at the time and that all of them wrote extensive commentaries on Plato and Aristotle.

>> No.16411149

>>16411093
Anon was pointing out that Egypt had ceased being the mystical orient for a long time. I pointed out that Egypt had, in total, been part of the same socio-cultural-economic unit for almost 1,000 years. It would not be until the Islamic conquests that Egypt would be part of a separate socio-cultural-economic unit. You then argued, and are still arguing, that in spite of this, Egypt was some kind of weird mystical orient always kept apart. That wasn't the case, at all. For just about 300 years, Egypt was literally run by ethnic Greek kings, bureaucrats, and administrators.

If you're not arguing this, then you need to take a step back, get some fresh air, and get out of your basement, because you're arguing against your own point.

>> No.16411157

Why should I read the theology instead of the myth? And what is so good about neoplatonist theology?

>> No.16411170

>>16411105
Of course they are, Greece had an enormous impact on Egypt. But no evidence has been produced demonstrating the doctrines that anon claimed Plato had supposedly taken from Egypt. The Greeks themselves mocked the whole "let's attribute this new thing to Egypt so it's ~esoteric~" thing. Later Neoplatonists are not evidence of this, as of course there was Platonism in Egypt in Iamblichus's day, Platonism had been there for centuries, introduced by the Greeks. In absence of any evidence that Plato's attribution of these ideas to Egypt was in fact him literally getting them from an Egyptian (or some Egyptian text), we have to concede that it's just the same thing as Hermes Trismegistus: The Greeks introducing something of their own invention to a foreign land, and then saying "ah, yes, it's here, so it's clearly always been here".

>> No.16411172

>>16411137
Difficult. Platonism could not sustain itself without that which legitimate religions have, Revelation. Iamblichus knew this and tried to syncretize genuine religious practices and extend philosophy out of rationality.

>> No.16411180

>>16411140
>not original in content and has eastern origins.
Not him, but you're a total faggot.
Greece IS the "East," they are not some thing separate from it. They are the active participant, not just some plagiarist.

The works of Plato is effectively the only recorded authority of a lot of different experiences - not exclusively Egypt outside Greece. His importance can't be understated.

>> No.16411191

>>16405093
>intentionally gets syphilis from a whore and dies in an asylum

epic

>> No.16411197

>>16411170
> But no evidence has been produced demonstrating the doctrines that anon claimed Plato had supposedly taken from Egypt.
Not him, I am, >>16411180
But try Philosophy as a Rite of Rebirth by Algis Uždavinys.
https://mega.nz/file/y0FVXABb#vUNrCInULm_89ckWAJ6Ua8sMLrFoDwppQ9Bgmu1JwXE
This is probably the best book on the subject ever written.

>> No.16411212

>>16411191
That was just Wagnerbro trying to save Nietzsche's reputation so people didn't think he died a virgin

>> No.16411217

>>16411149
>Anon was pointing out that Egypt had ceased being the mystical orient for a long time.
Oh, orient, you say? Anyway. Did Egypt cease to be what it was by the time Solon, Pythagoras, Thales and Orpheus and even Plato communed with the egyptian priests there? Why did they hide their knowledge from commoners like in old times? Why did those greeks have to prove themselves worth receiving their doctrines which were not disclosed freely to anyone?

> I pointed out that Egypt had, in total, been part of the same socio-cultural-economic unit for almost 1,000 years.
Don't you think you are inverting the flux of influence here? Egypt had a established civilization for millenia by the beginning of the greek world.

>Egypt was some kind of weird mystical orient always kept apart.
See above about egyptian mystagogy.

>For just about 300 years, Egypt was literally run by ethnic Greek kings, bureaucrats, and administrators.
In 600-400BC?

Start here: Golden Chain by Uzdavinys, very very basic reading for anyone interested in platonism.

>> No.16411223

>>16411170
>>16411197
Sorry for confusion. I am the person you were responding to, not the orientalist.

>> No.16411224

>>16411140
>can't do maths
>can't do history
>can't even understand basic language
Make your argument genius. I can see that you're still seething after those humiliating responses you gave earlier, but that's not my problem. Make an actual argument. Demonstrate that your "sources" actually make the argument you claim they make rather than latching onto semantics and relieving yourself of the responsibility to provide real arguments on that basis.

>> No.16411238

>>16411170
>Greece had an enormous impact on Egypt. But no evidence has been produced demonstrating the doctrines that anon claimed Plato had supposedly taken from Egypt.
Yes. Greece influenced Egypt but Egypt, a civilization lasting more than 10 thousand and predating Greece for millenia had no impact on Greece?

Have you read Plato you idiot? He all the time cites the mysteries, orphism and pythagoras, and egyptians. The injunction of the temple of Delphi was inspired by egyptian temples. I know, you have no idea about any of these things and you'll just accuse me of inventing it because you simply are uneducated.

>> No.16411242

>>16410925
>Or perhaps, unlike Jewish religious ethnocentrism, the gods Inspired the same truth to most people. Differences arise because, again, the gods inspire they don't compose the text word for word
Their religious traditions were similar because they descended from the same people. The more different they are, the longer ago they were separated.

>> No.16411247

>>16411217
>Why did those greeks have to prove themselves worth receiving their doctrines which were not disclosed freely to anyone?
You literally have zero understanding of esotericism which is why you're so far out of your depth. There hasn't been a single esoteric tradition in the history of the world that hasn't been extremely restrictive with its content in normal circumstances. Plato himself stated that revealing his metaphysics on text would be nonsensical precisely for that reason. Taoists, Tantrists, Buddhists, Sufis and every serious esoteric tradition would offer the same response. The secrecy of esoteric doctrines does not imply anything at all about the superiority or inferiority of exoteric doctrines.

>> No.16411250

>>16411238
This was already discussed, read the thread.

>> No.16411253
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16411253

>>16411149
Think you might not grasp how little Greeks replaced the native culture or people. One reason why Christianity flourished in Egypt was because the Egyptian peasants disliked the Hellenes. It was also focused around Alexandria, and neither did greek myth replace the egyptian mythos but Syncretized with it. Serapis, the main god of the later egyptians, was a fusion of Osiris and Apis, which is a continuation of Amun-ra with Greek Zeus aesthetics. Which also parallels with Mithraism and the slaying of the bull and the Aries , which all focused on the Zodiac and the astrological ages.
Which also connects to the Orphic hymns to Dionysus (who was and wasn't his father, or rather: both were the sun, just as in Egypt Ra is every god but each god is not each-other).

I call upon loud-roaring,
reveling Dionysos,
primeval, two-natured,
thrice-born Bacchic lord,
savage, ineffable, secretive, 3
two-horned and two-shaped,
ivy-covered, bull-faced,
warlike, howling, pure.
You take raw flesh in triennial feasts,
wrapped in foliage, decked with grape clusters,
resourceful Eubouleus, 6
immortal god sired by Zeus
when he mated with Persephone
in unspeakable union.
Hearken to my voice, O blessed one,
you and your fair-girdled nurses,
breathe on me in a spirit 9
of perfect kindness.

>> No.16411255

>>16411224
>literally cited more than 7 direct, primary, sources.
>demonstrate that your sources make the argument
what about reading them? have you ever considered reading platonists to actually talk about platonism?

i swear this board is the worst.

>> No.16411258

>>16411238
You should read Spengler, or really any book on this. The answer to literally every statement you have made is "No, you are wrong". Go read a book, it's pretty clear you haven't.

The House of Hades is a particularly good one on the various Mysteries in the Greek world. No, they had no inheritance from the Egyptians. You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>16411217
Take a breather, you're arguing against your own point here.

>> No.16411265

>>16411217
If you've read Uzdavinys then you wouldn't be saying nothing about Platonism is original lol. Even in context of the Egyptian influence the delivery is completely sterilized. Plato has taken all of the essence with nothing left over, developing very real experiential lessons into a system. The Eleusinian Mysteries had significant effect on Plato to his very own testament, yet what he says and learned can reveal us nothing of the method.

This are other influences, like the reconciliation of Parmenides and Heraclitus in this system.

>> No.16411266

>>16411172
>extend philosophy out of rationality
Aristotle was the one who shoved analytic rationalism into 'philosophy', not Plato.

>> No.16411278

>>16411253
>Think you might not grasp how little Greeks replaced the native culture or people.
You think like a liberal democrat, no one in the Classical Age gave a shit about replacing the mass of the population of a conquered territory. On the contrary, success was defined by the ability to create a pure, autonomous and preferably upper caste community from the original culture.
>>16411255
Saying that something supports your claim doesn't count as a citation fuckboy.

>> No.16411287
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16411287

>>16411247
In all honesty, do you have any mental impairment? You said Egypt had ceased being ''mystical'' for a long time and I told you that their practices were still the same in covering knowledge, much like all restrictions in esoteric traditions as you pointed out.

>The secrecy of esoteric doctrines does not imply anything at all about the superiority or inferiority of exoteric doctrines.
When did I say this? I merely pointed out how Egypt conserved the same application of esoteric revelation, that is, it was not freely, superficially done to the masses. Can you understand a single post of mine or are you just dishonest like all the others to whom I've been replying?

>> No.16411300

>>16411266
Hard pill to swallow, I know, but Plato is not pure theopoesis.

>> No.16411319
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16411319

>>16411265
>Even in context of the Egyptian influence the delivery is completely sterilized.
Uzdavinys for all his brilliance and erudition was a poor study on Plato directly, didn't understand him at all, in spite of how much he read the neoPLATOnists.

They are, my son—very crude people. But these others, whose
mysteries I am going to tell you, are a much more subtle type. These
mysteries begin from the principle on which all that we have just been
saying also depends, namely, that everything is really motion, and there
is nothing but motion. Motion has two forms, each an infinite multitude,
but distinguished by their powers, the one being active and the other
passive. And through the intercourse and mutual friction of these two
b there comes to be an offspring infinite in multitude but always twin births,
on the one hand what is perceived, on the other, the perception of it, the
perception in every case being generated together with what is perceived
and emerging along with it.

>> No.16411325

>>16411300
No but Theopoesis is pure Plato

>> No.16411343

>>16411287
>In all honesty, do you have any mental impairment?
I am not the guy you were responding to, but I am about to demonstrate that you're the one with the mental impairment.
>You said Egypt had ceased being ''mystical'' for a long time
The anon in question obviously meant "mystical" in the sense of "alien". This is obvious because he specifically says "mystical orient". He then specifically points out that Egypt was familiar territory because of the long-term Greco-Roman presence in the region.
> I told you that their practices were still the same in covering knowledge, much like all restrictions in esoteric traditions as you pointed out.
That Egypt must have had its own esoteric Mysteries (different from "mysticism" or being "mystical" as simple foreignness) is very likely. That is besides the point, however. Esoteric Mysteries do not even concern themselves with philosophy or ontological systems unless it is convenient to do so for completely unrelated purposes.
>merely pointed out how Egypt conserved the same application of esoteric revelation, that is, it was not freely, superficially done to the masses. Can you understand a single post of mine or are you just dishonest like all the others to whom I've been replying?
Or maybe you're just wrong.

>> No.16411387

Why do Christians always get so jealous and insecure when something other than their cult is being discussed?
>>16406898
Man and you know Belisarius wasn't the only cuck between the two.

>> No.16411430
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16411430

>>16411343
>Esoteric Mysteries do not even concern themselves with philosophy or ontological systems
You can make a theogonic diagram out of every faith.
And it depends on what you mean with 'philosphy', Platonism (philosophy) IS Esoteric Mystery, it's the whole poin behind it.

pened yet to anyone for human offspring.
“Even you, Socrates, could probably come to be initiated into these rites
of love. But as for the purpose of these rites when they are done correctly—
that is the final and highest mystery, and I don’t know if you are capable
of it. I myself will tell you,” she said, “and I won’t stint any effort. And
you must try to follow if you can.
“A lover who goes about this matter correctly must begin in his youth
to devote himself to beautiful bodies. First, if the leader45 leads aright, he
should love one body and beget beautiful ideas there; then he should
b realize that the beauty of any one body is brother to the beauty of any
other and that if he is to pursue beauty of form he’d be very foolish not
to think that the beauty of all bodies is one and the same. When he grasps
this, he must become a lover of all beautiful bodies, and he must think
that this wild gaping after just one body is a small thing and despise it.
“After this he must think that the beauty of people’s souls is more
valuable than the beauty of their bodies, so that if someone is decent in
c his soul, even though he is scarcely blooming in his body, our lover must
be content to love and care for him and to seek to give birth to such ideas
as will make young men better. The result is that our lover will be forced
to gaze at the beauty of activities and laws and to see that all this is akin
to itself, with the result that he will think that the beauty of bodies is a
thing of no importance. After customs he must move on to various kinds
of knowledge. The result is that he will see the beauty of knowledge and d
be looking mainly not at beauty in a single example—as a servant would
who favored the beauty of a little boy or a man or a single custom (being
a slave, of course, he’s low and small-minded)—but the lover is turned to
the great sea of beauty, and, gazing upon this, he gives birth to many
gloriously beautiful ideas and theories, in unstinting love of wisdom,
until, having grown and been strengthened there, he catches sight of such e
knowledge, and it is the knowledge of such beauty . . .

>> No.16411436
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16411436

>>16411430
“Try to pay attention to me,” she said, “as best you can. You see, the
man who has been thus far guided in matters of Love, who has beheld
beautiful things in the right order and correctly, is coming now to the goal
of Loving: all of a sudden he will catch sight of something wonderfully
beautiful in its nature; that, Socrates, is the reason for all his earlier labors:
“First, it always is and neither comes to be nor passes away, neither
waxes nor wanes. Second, it is not beautiful this way and ugly that way,
nor beautiful at one time and ugly at another, nor beautiful in relation to
one thing and ugly in relation to another; nor is it beautiful here but ugly
there, as it would be if it were beautiful for some people and ugly for
others. Nor will the beautiful appear to him in the guise of a face or hands
or anything else that belongs to the body. It will not appear to him as one
idea or one kind of knowledge. It is not anywhere in another thing, as in
an animal, or in earth, or in heaven, or in anything else, but itself by itself
with itself, it is always one in form; and all the other beautiful things share
in that, in such a way that when those others come to be or pass away,
this does not become the least bit smaller or greater nor suffer any change.
So when someone rises by these stages, through loving boys correctly, and
begins to see this beauty, he has almost grasped his goal. This is what it
is to go aright, OR be led by another, into the mystery of Love: one goes
always upwards for the sake of this Beauty, starting out from beautiful
things and using them like rising stairs: from one body to two and from
two to all beautiful bodies, then from beautiful bodies to beautiful customs,
and from customs to learning beautiful things, and from these lessons he
arrives in the end at this lesson, which is learning of this very Beauty,
so that in the end he comes to know just what it is to be beautiful.

>> No.16411454
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16411454

>>16411430
>>16411436
These winds have been offered me by the Maidens:
The North Wind is she who caresses sea-washed islands,
spreads wide her welcoming arms to the ends of earth,
Grows quiet at night
to further her lover’s designs each new day.
She is the breath of life, the North Wind,
offered to me
and through her I live.
These winds have been offered me by the Maidens:
The East Wind is she who raises the lashes of seeing,
discloses dawn,
makes glittering way for the footstep of God
when he strides over eastern horizon.
Oh, let Rê hold fast to my arm,
Place me there in his field,
at peace amid rushes,
There leave me eating and drinking forever,
blessed by Osiris and Seth.
She is the breath of life, the East Wind,
offered to me
and through her I live.
These winds have been offered me by the Maidens:
This is the West Wind, brother to Ha,
fiery lord of the Libyan desert,
offspring and image of Iaaw,
bird god of ancestral Lapwings,
Alive since the day of the One People
(before ever the share became Two),
companion still to the Land one once more.
He is the breath of life, the West Wind,
offered to me
and through him I live.
These winds have been offered me by the Maidens:
This is the South Wind, African,
who flows from the ancient Source,
god bringing Egypt water
that life be sturdy and prosper.
He is the breath of life, the South Wind,
offered to me
and through him I live.
Be praised, O you Four Winds of Heaven,
unseen spirits of sky,
I call you each by your Name,
by the unspeakable Name They gave you;
And I know your manner of birth,
once your Name appeared in the world
Back before man was conceived,
before even gods came to be,
Before ever birds had been snared,
before the taming of cattle,
Before the Wailer’s jaws were tied shut,
daughter of Dawnstar,
before ever Mind mastered Trouble—
possessor of heaven and earth.
I sought these Names from the Lord of Powers,
and He it is gave them to me.
‘‘Come, come along, to ferry the skyways together!
I grant you to view the sky-ship,
embark,
sail waves of the starry sea.’’
‘‘No, no! It is I myself who fashioned a vessel
to cross to the precinct of God;
And there, I shall launch the thousand-foot ship
and sail to the Staircase of Fire!’’
Confronting the Sun, before the bright face of God,
may he sail to the Staircase of Fire!

>> No.16411462

>>16411343
>The anon in question obviously meant "mystical" in the sense of "alien".
This is possible and I hope this was what he really meant. I know the term mystical is most of the time employed in a rather simplistic way but it has a semantic origin in the mysteries as you said, as alien, foreign, that is, it conserves its sense of ''esoterism''.

> Egypt was familiar territory.
Indeed, for Greek culture was founded on many egyptian myths and had their sciences continued with them.

>Esoteric Mysteries do not even concern themselves with philosophy or ontological systems unless it is convenient to do so for completely unrelated purposes.
The Mysteries presented even mythological exegeses and enacted their disclosure. Read Thomas Taylor. Theology and metaphysics are the basis of every myth.

>> No.16411482

>>16411430
>You can make a theogonic diagram out of every faith.
Esoteric Mysteries aren't faiths, they are sets of operations designed to fulfil specific functions on the spiritual plane. Any conceptualisation of the Mysteries as "faiths" (or even religious institutions) will lead to a deformation of the Mysteries to the point of being unrecognisable.
>And it depends on what you mean with 'philosphy', Platonism (philosophy) IS Esoteric Mystery, it's the whole poin behind it.
Platonism is highly congruent with esotericism and with Mysteries of various kinds, but the philosophy of Platonism itself bears little relevance to the actual object and substance of the Mysteries or other esoteric practices.

>> No.16411485

>>16411258
Refute anything I have posted. All I have said is grounded on Platonists.

>> No.16411505

>>16411462
>This is possible and I hope this was what he really meant. I know the term mystical is most of the time employed in a rather simplistic way but it has a semantic origin in the mysteries as you said, as alien, foreign, that is, it conserves its sense of ''esoterism''.
The meanings of both "mystical" and "mysticism" have been extremely diluted throughout the centuries. I don't even consider them to refer to the Mysteries unless specifically stated otherwise.
>Indeed, for Greek culture was founded on many egyptian myths and had their sciences continued with them.
You absolute buffoon. I can't believe you've done this.
>The Mysteries presented even mythological exegeses and enacted their disclosure. Read Thomas Taylor. Theology and metaphysics are the basis of every myth.
Depending on your definition of metaphysics you can just cut out theology. With that said, not everything that passes for metaphysics would qualify as the origin of a "myth" (in the sense of a high myth, Mystery, etc). This is also specifically why I said "ontology" rather than "metaphysics", though.

>> No.16411543

>>16411482
>Esoteric Mysteries aren't faiths, they are sets of operations designed to fulfil specific functions on the spiritual plane. Any conceptualisation of the Mysteries as "faiths" (or even religious institutions) will lead to a deformation of the Mysteries to the point of being unrecognisable.
AH so you're saying initiation from some ancient tradition isn't truly necessary, even if that would improve your chances a thousandfold, as Plato and Plotinus said?
>"The word telete or initiation" says Hermeas, in his MS. Commentary on the Phaedrus, "was so denominated from rendering the soul perfect. The soul therefore was once perfect. But here it is divided, and is not able to energize wholly by itself" He adds: "But it is necessary to know that telete, muesis, and epopteia, differ from each other. Telete, therefore, is analogous to that which is preparatory to purifications. But muesis, which is so called from closing the eyes, is more divine. For to close the eyes in initiation is no longer to receive by sense those divine mysteries, but with the pure soul itself. And epopteia is to be established in, and become a spectator of the mysteries.

>> No.16411569

>>16411543
>AH so you're saying initiation from some ancient tradition isn't truly necessary, even if that would improve your chances a thousandfold, as Plato and Plotinus said?
The Esoteric Mysteries are reserved for people who have already been initiated. As far as I am aware, initiation itself does not count as a Mystery. Anyway, to address your question, being initiated is itself just another operation that necessitates neither "faith" nor "religion" - its only requirements are an initiation ceremony and an adept to serve the function of the initiator.

>> No.16411574

>>16411505
>The meanings of both "mystical" and "mysticism"
Yes and I read in a rush, didn't have time to think of the subtleties underlying the terms he employed, but it seems he misunderstood me in the same way with my rhetorical questions. I thought he meant that by that time egyptian mystagogy had already become what it would be under Roman regime.
We are in agreement here.

>You absolute buffoon. I can't believe you've done this.
Will you tell me there had no influence by the part of the egyptian mythopoesis on greek culture?

>Depending on your definition of metaphysics
I mean it in the most comprehensive sense, comprehending ontology. We could say metaphysics is the rational substrate of theology.

>With that said, not everything that passes for metaphysics would qualify as the origin of a "myth".
Read above. It can be because it is a rational basis for what the myths represents and their interdependence.

>> No.16411590

>>16411569
>initiation itself does not count as a Mystery
it is initiation into the mysteries, there is no other implication in the word.

>> No.16411642

>>16411574
>Will you tell me there had no influence by the part of the egyptian mythopoesis on greek culture?
Cross-pollination between esoteric traditions exists and occurs regularly, but to claim that the esoteric traditions of the Greeks were based on the esoteric traditions of the Egyptians is leaps and bounds away from the modest assertion of cultural exchange. I am confident that many Greeks were curious and interested in learning about, utilising and adapting Egyptian esotericism. I am also confident that the Egyptians on their part too must have shown such an interest towards the Greeks and if they did not, that would be a mistake on their behalf, rather than something to be proud of. Greek thought and spirituality has its own pure, powerful and autonomous origins. That many members of the Greek people have had interest in foreign options in these fields - to negative or to positive ends for Greek culture as a whole - can not be denied. This by no means invalidates the idea of an independent Greek worldview.
>metaphysics
I'm not sure what to respond with here because I am not sure what the point of contention is. A highly developed metaphysics can result in variable but nevertheless effective myths and Mysteries. These however would have little in common with popular or "mystical" (in the modern sense" myths which have always been the product of inferior metaphysics.

>> No.16411660

>>16411590
The state of perfect metaphysical clarity (where one is aware of the secrets/mysteries) is not the exact same thing as the awareness and participation in the ritual operations of the Mysteries, which lead to the former but are in and of themselves just rituals. The semantics here are very contentious, though. You get my point anyway.

>> No.16411665
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16411665

>>16411569
fucking protestant theology, "the sacraments are just symbolic", fuck off, I'm not christian but literally the same retarded thinking.
There is no initiation without the mystic experience and the experience only comes through faith.

"For being pure," says he, "and liberated from this surrounding vestment,
which we now denominate body, we obtained
this most blessed muesis and epopteia, being full of intelligible
light. "For the pure splendor [which he mentions] symbolically unfolds
to us intelligible light. Hence, when we are situated in the intelligible,
we shall have a life perfectly liberated from the body. But elevating the
head of the charioteer to the place beyond the heaven, we shall be fi11ed
with the mysteries which are there, and with intelligible silence. It also
appears to me that Plato sufficiently unfolds the three elevating causes,
love, truth, and faith, to those who do not negligently read what he has
written. For what besides love conjoins with beauty?
Where is the plain of truth, except in this place? And what else than faith
is the cause of this ineffable muesis? For muesis in short, is neither through
intelligence nor judgment, but through the unical silence imparted by
faith, which is better than every gnostic energy, and which establishes
both whole souls and ours, in the ineffable and unknown nature of the
Gods. These things however, have proceeded to this length from my
sympathy about such like concerns.

>> No.16411720

>>16411665
>fucking protestant theology, "the sacraments are just symbolic", fuck off, I'm not christian but literally the same retarded thinking.
This is in fact the opposite of what I am saying. The Protestant interpretation that you're thinking of conceives as the sacraments as purely material operations with symbolic value. In my view, the Mysteries (and also the Sacraments which are just degenerate Mysteries) are purely spiritual operations which physical actions only allude to on the physical plane.
>There is no initiation without the mystic experience and the experience only comes through faith.
The "mystical" path is the opposite of the "initiatic" or esoteric path. Initiation into the Mysteries is supposed to awaken knowledge of the spirit within the initiate. The mystic is too weak for that, so he has to externalise his spirit onto a divine image and then experience his own spirit as a "divine revelation". The mystical path is a possible, if flawed, path, but it's just one path. There are others.

>> No.16411747

>>16411720
Icarus is a warning to hard mind-body dualism.

>> No.16411780

>>16411660
>The state of perfect metaphysical clarity (where one is aware of the secrets/mysteries) is not the exact same thing as the awareness and participation in the ritual operations of the Mysteries
Yes, it is not. The former is rationalization of the latter which is an - ekstatik - experience. That is why as this anon says >>16411665 faith is needed to surpass rationalization and discursivity.

>>16411642
>but to claim that the esoteric traditions of the Greeks were based on the esoteric traditions of the Egyptians.
This is an evident fact, you cannot deny their powerful influence. If you mean anything other than the Mysteries, Pythagoreanism, that is, Platonism, then feel free to show me any other Theology independent of external influences, which is not the case if the one mentioned.

>I am also confident that the Egyptians on their part too must have shown such an interest towards the Greeks
They were obviously receptive to a the greek world as in their cultural and scientific exchanges, but the impact in egyptian civilization is not even comparable. Egyptians molded a part of what ancient greece was.

>Greek thought and spirituality has its own pure, powerful and autonomous origins.
What is greek thought? Be direct and tell us these autonomous origins. I just want to remind you we are talking about the most developed theological/metaphysical doctrines in ancient greece: Platonism.

>> No.16411792

>>16411720
>Sacraments which are just degenerate Mysteries
Both share in theurgical act, anon. No reason to nurture such hatred to end up being irrational.

>> No.16411854

>>16411747
What makes you think that I'm a supporter of mind-body dualism, even if we assume your interpretation of Icarus to be the only true one?
>>16411780
>That is why as this anon says >>16411665 faith is needed to surpass rationalization and discursivity.
That anon is also wrong. Metaphysical clarity is not merely rational - it extends to the rational dimension but stems from higher divinity.
>This is an evident fact, you cannot deny their powerful influence. If you mean anything other than the Mysteries, Pythagoreanism, that is, Platonism, then feel free to show me any other Theology independent of external influences, which is not the case if the one mentioned.
Stating that something is an evident fact does not make it so.
>They were obviously receptive to a the greek world as in their cultural and scientific exchanges, but the impact in egyptian civilization is not even comparable. Egyptians molded a part of what ancient greece was.
Past the main cultural exchange of Greece and Egypt, Egyptian civilisation ceases to exist, so your claim here is inapplicable.
>What is greek thought? Be direct and tell us these autonomous origins. I just want to remind you we are talking about the most developed theological/metaphysical doctrines in ancient greece: Platonism.
Precisely because the thread is about Platonism I've avoided getting into schizo territory. Do the terms "solar spirituality" and "Olympian worldview" ring any bells?
>Both share in theurgical act, anon. No reason to nurture such hatred to end up being irrational.
The Sacraments literally are degenerate Mysteries and that is an objective fact. The only way they can accomplish their original purpose is on pure accident by being used by or on a particularly spiritually aware person. The mass character of the Sacraments has profaned them extremely badly.

>> No.16411865

>>16411792
>>16411854
The last line here is for you anon.

>> No.16411911

>you will never see a real oracle
>you will never have a Kemetic priest reveal the identity of your daemon
>you will never attend an Iamblichii theurgy ritual in Syria
feels bad man

>> No.16411932

>>16411911
Simply make direct contact with the spiritual dimension and learn how to conduct your own rituals

>> No.16411953

>>16411854
>Metaphysical clarity is not merely rational.
It is not merely rational but still bound to reason. Reason points out to its own inability to discursively present that to which it points. The experience is the complete abandonment of this discursivity. One is described the other is felt. But they are close, yes that is why Metaphysics is Intellectual, not merely rational.

>Stating that something is an evident fact does not make it so.
Not accepting a fact does not make it disappear from history. Here we go with the irrational denials. Read all the authors I cited in this thread for fuck's sake.

>Past the main cultural exchange of Greece and Egypt, Egyptian civilisation ceases to exist.
Then what is your point you dumbfuck? You are literally saying Egypt got from greeks too and now you say they disappeared with the emergence of greek world.

>Do the terms "solar spirituality"
Do you think this symbolique of Sun is greek? You can't be this dumb.

>Sacraments degenerate.
The original purpose is theurgical purpose which is not hindred by being performed in front of more people. There were performative festivals in pagan world, greek, roman, egyptian, indian, with the same purpose. The Sacrament means Mystery and is founded on the Mystery of the Living God.
How can you be angry at it being Revealed when you don't even know about what the ancient Mysteries and Platonism were as is evident in our whole discussion?

>> No.16412050

>>16411953
>It is not merely rational but still bound to reason. Reason points out to its own inability to discursively present that to which it points. The experience is the complete abandonment of this discursivity. One is described the other is felt. But they are close, yes that is why Metaphysics is Intellectual, not merely rational.
Metaphysics - understood in the highest and broadest sense - is only bound to (material) reason insofar as it intends to interact with material reality. A purer form of reason is experienced through the "abandonment of discursivity", to use your language.
>Not accepting a fact does not make it disappear from history. Here we go with the irrational denials. Read all the authors I cited in this thread for fuck's sake.
I really do not know how to emphasise this enough - claiming that something or someone agrees with you is not a citation. It is literally, factually, definitionally not what a citation is.
>Then what is your point you dumbfuck? You are literally saying Egypt got from greeks too and now you say they disappeared with the emergence of greek world.
I am saying that both the Greeks and the Egyptians must have shared valuable information with each other, but that your claim that one benefited from this in an extremely disproportionate manner is incoherent because the influence of Greco-Roman civilisation on Egypt never had the opportunity to manifest since any residue of Egyptian civilisation was wiped clean by the Islamic Conquests.
>Do you think this symbolique of Sun is greek? You can't be this dumb.
No, it's visible in many traditions but it's most prominent in Indo-European ones.
>The original purpose is theurgical purpose which is not hindred by being performed in front of more people. There were performative festivals in pagan world, greek, roman, egyptian, indian, with the same purpose. The Sacrament means Mystery and is founded on the Mystery of the Living God.
How can you be angry at it being Revealed when you don't even know about what the ancient Mysteries and Platonism were as is evident in our whole discussion?
I really think the crux of our disagreement can be found in your statements here. You seem to have spent some time studying these matters from a secular-materialist-academic point of view and therefore fail to see the forest for the trees. Broadly speaking, we can say that the aim of Mysteries is to infuse the sacred into the profane. Initiation unlocks the sacred dimension in man more generally, whereas something like marriage is meant to sanctify the bond between a man and a woman. The meaning varies according to context but the aim is always the same. The Sacraments utterly fail at this. No spiritual quality is added to a partnership by the marriage ceremony anymore, nor does man gain something from baptism or confirmation. The Sacraments actually profane the sacred by reducing the experience of the sacred for the masses to empty and ineffective rituals, thus discrediting spirit.

>> No.16412126

>>16404671
Gimme some recommendations for it then to introduce me (preferably modern ones)

>> No.16412133

>>16405194
Based closet Catholic Heideggerian

>> No.16412159
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16412159

>>16412126
John M Dillon - Neoplatonism: Introductory Readings

>> No.16412223

>>16412050
>claiming that something or someone agrees with you is not a citation. It is literally, factually, definitionally not what a citation is.
I thought you had read Plato, Uzdavinys, Diogenes Laertius, Thomas Taylor etc. See >>16411287 for example. Stop playing dumb.

>both the Greeks and the Egyptians must have shared valuable information with each other...
One predated the other for millenia, literally. One was already established and the other starting to flourish. Just move along.

> it's most prominent in Indo-European ones.
hahahahahahahahahaha, shhhh don't tell him that it was prominent in... Egypt! too.

>the aim of Mysteries is to infuse the sacred into the profane.
Divinization of man, Eucharist, Baptism, Chrism. What else do you need?

>Initiation unlocks the sacred dimension in man more generally, whereas something like marriage is meant to sanctify the bond between a man and a woman.
Read above and read about marriage. Marriage is not the only form of Sacrament (even though yes marriage is a symbolique of spiritual unification but i'll not extend myself on it because there has been so many writings about it i'll not make them justice).

>The Sacraments utterly fail at this.
You couldn't even cite the central Sacraments as the ones I pointed above, much less understanding each one of them.

>No spiritual quality is added to a partnership by the marriage ceremony anymore, nor does man gain something from baptism or confirmation.
Just confirmed my last point. You know nothing about them.

Anyway, what a waste was all of this. In all sincerity, start reading about what you write before posting here.

>> No.16412242

How is eternal hell compatible with an immortal soul rising and descending endlessly from the One?

>> No.16412290

>>16411053
wtf are you talking about

>> No.16412293

>>16405093
How does that show lack of integrity? Isnt integrity a system of itself?

>> No.16412297

>>16412223
>I thought you had read Plato, Uzdavinys, Diogenes Laertius, Thomas Taylor etc. See >>16411287 for example. Stop playing dumb.
>No source
>No context or details
>Just some guy saying Pythagoras brought something to Greece from Egypt
Wonderful. My position has been dismantled.
>One predated the other for millenia, literally. One was already established and the other starting to flourish. Just move along.
Nice way to evade my point. Older =/= better btw.
>hahahahahahahahahaha, shhhh don't tell him that it was prominent in... Egypt! too.
>in your mind, somehow this invalidates my position
>Divinization of man, Eucharist, Baptism, Chrism. What else do you need?
You'd need it to actually work, presumably. Currently, it does not.
>You couldn't even cite the central Sacraments as the ones I pointed above, much less understanding each one of them.
Was I supposed to list each and every Sacrament to make a point about their general character as a whole? Why?
>Just confirmed my last point. You know nothing about them.
It must be very comforting for you to believe so.
>Anyway, what a waste was all of this. In all sincerity, start reading about what you write before posting here.
Same to you. Good luck out there.

>> No.16412321

>>16412293
One systemises as a substitute for integrity.

>> No.16412335

>>16412223
>Divinization of man, Eucharist, Baptism, Chrism.
A bunch of Bible nonsense.

You're more likely to drive people away from Neoplatonism with your obsessive demands for people to accept *squints* the Torah too than you are bringing more people into church.

>> No.16412405
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16412405

>>16412242
>SOCRATES: And if he or anyone else he cares about acts unjustly, he should voluntarily go to the place where he’ll pay his due as soon as possible; he should go to the judge as though he were going to a doctor, b anxious that the disease of injustice shouldn’t be protracted and cause his soul to fester incurably. What else can we say, Polus, if our previous agreements really stand? Aren’t these statements necessarily consistent with our earlier ones in only this way?
Olympiodorus:
'And incurable' ( 480b2): Why 'incurable'? What? Is he punished eternally, and is never freed [of the evil]? No, punishment is
not eternal, presuming that God wants to turn us towards the good,
whereas whatever pays the penalty eternally is eternally in a state
contrary to nature. [This is] especially [so] if we are being turned
around so that we may lead a sensible life in future; 465 so punishment will be pointless if we are punished eternally. We shall
learn in the myth how eternal punishment beneath the earth is
spoken of: that there are cycles which he calls 'aeons', and that one
must submit [to punishment] for the duration of these so as to be
healed.
later, elaboration:
Note that souls who have committed modest wrongdoing are
subject to judgment for a little time, then after purification proceed.
When I say 'proceed', I do not mean physically, but through life;
for indeed Plotinus says 'the soul proceeds not by foot but by
life'. 1003 Souls who have committed very great wrongdoing are
sent 'straightaway' to Tartarus. That means 'very swiftly': he says
'straightaway' since the straight line is the shortest of those [routes]
which have the same beginning and end. And these souls are
subject to judgment 'for ever', never to be purified. It is worth asking why he says 'for ever'. What? Is there never to be a cessation of
punishment? 1004 Note that it is necessary for us to be converted by
>...some elaboration about the rotation of the spheres...
Now it is the length of the rotation it takes for the seven spheres
to be restored to the same position relative to the fixed stars that he
calls 'ever'. The souls of parricides or matricides or suchlike are
punished 'for ever', i.e. 'for the length of this rotation'. Suppose
someone says 'If a parricide dies today, and after six months, years
or even days have elapsed the seven spheres are restored to the
same position relative to the fixed stars, are they punished just for
that length of time?' 1010 Answer 'That is not what I maintain, but
that they are punished for the number of years that it takes for a
restoration to the same position. For example if the restoration to
the same position takes a thousand years, then, whenever he dies,
he is punished for a thousand years'. He calls the duration of
this rotation 'ever', for it is impossible to be punished without
limit.
aka an 'aeon' of punishment is a whole universal (solar sphere) cycle/age.