Now that the dust has settled

[Anonymous No.16234643]

Who is the ultimate Italian?

[Anonymous No.16234690]

>>16234643
Michelstaedter

[Anonymous No.16234758]

[Anonymous No.16234762]

Gentile and Gramsci were both killed for their philosophy so I think they're both pretty admirable. They both wrote pretty good political philosophy too. Haven't read Croce or Evola. Along with Vico, Machiavelli, Campanella, Pareto and Mosca, Agamben, Bobbio, Negri, Italians have some great political philosophers.

[Anonymous No.16234763]

>>16234643
Probably Evola desu, the other guys are too specific, though I don't think Evola was more brilliant than them, I think he was probably less creative.

[Anonymous No.16234807]

>>16234643
Da Vinci

[Anonymous No.16234816]

>>16234763
This. They are all pretty bad when it comes to philosophy as a whole, Evola was probably the most well-rounded. However, he is a terrible philosopher, his arguments are extremely weak, and he mostly forces the original sources into a pre-packaged (platonic) philosophical frame. Historically speaking, though, it's a fundamental figure for Italian culture and should be studied more to understand the origin of a rather wide number of mistakes that are common in Italian culture and thought, both private and philosophical. Examples:
>old but gold fallacy = the Greeks/Romans/Hyperboreans/[insert past civilization] had it right
>the "everyone agrees with me therefore I'm right" fallacy = all religions say x, therefore x is true
>the metaphysical order fallacy = things are in order, therefore they are ordered, therefore there is a metaphysical order they obey to (rather than appearing or actually being ordered by chance)
>the cyclical time fallacy = nothing is new in history and everything repeats itself, so we'll go back to the old but gold one day. I have seen all history, so I know when the cycle starts and when it ends. No I'm not making arbitrary historical interpretations to fit events into my theory
>etc.

[Anonymous No.16234852]

>>16234816
Who do you think is 'good' when it comes to philosophy, out of interest?

[Anonymous No.16235005]

>>16234852
Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Hume, Kant, Leibniz, Spinoza, Frege, Wittgenstein are all very good philosophers, in that they have well-build, new and interesting Arguments. Evola is at best an historian of thought, and a very unscientific one. Almost anyone who engaged with history of religion or history of ideas in general by doing readings that are not Evola or Guenon can easily recognize how Evola consistently mistifies, misinterpret and misunderstands the sources he's using to make his arguments. Also, in general, I see no point in building arguments from authority as Evola does. The fact that all cultures/religions point towards a certain thery proves nothing about its truth. General agreement on any given point can reinforce a certain statement, but it proves nothing. Which is why is not generally considered a good argument in philosophy. Evola is a bad philosopher.

Also:
1. If all cultures agree with what you say, that says nothing on the truth of your theories.

[Anonymous No.16235123]

>>16234643
Michelangelo

[Anonymous No.16235135]

They were all racists and chuds

[Anonymous No.16235169]

>>16235135
>They were all racists
Based

[Anonymous No.16235450]

>>16234758
based

[Anonymous No.16235460]

>>16234758
Based Toward the Creative Nothing poster

[Anonymous No.16235486]

>>16234816
Yeah I agree with this, but I think the Perennialism in which you are referring to in point 2 is obviously something more complex than "all cultures, all true" though he may verbally say as much at times because he doesn't need to explain Perennialism and expects you to know it. And as for Evola being "an historian of thought", I would agree to this only in the sense that he is a collector of previous thought and a unique repackager or explainer of it.

[Anonymous No.16235509]

>>16235135
Damn I love them all

[Anonymous No.16235518]

>>16234643

[Anonymous No.16235541]

Machiavelli.

[Anonymous No.16235556]

>>16234643
>Ctrl + f "Dante"
>0 results
You people disgust me.

[Anonymous No.16235624]

>>16235135
green flag

[Anonymous No.16235772]

One can know you're all pseuds because Gabriele D'Annunzio isn't here already.

[Anonymous No.16235794]

Yo

[Anonymous No.16235808]

>>16234643
beppe grillo

[Anonymous No.16235826]

>>16235556
Dante sucks

[Anonymous No.16235854]

>>16234816
>fallacy
cringe

[Anonymous No.16236137]

>>16234816
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read on this website in the 11+ years I've been using it. You are the biggest, most stupid, malinformed, ignorant cretin in this whole board. Imagine ascribing the characteristics of a whole culture to a relatively unknown and uninfluential writer. Jesus fucking Christ the mere thought of a member of my own species thinking and writing what you wrote makes me red with rage.
>>16234643
the ultimate italian is obviously Leopardi

[Anonymous No.16236159]

>>16234816
No such thing as a fallacy

[Anonymous No.16236169]

>>16236137
>Leopardi
Based. I haven't read his poetry yet but I've been going over his Zibaldone.

[Anonymous No.16236311]

>>16235794
merda allo stato puro, le due cose che sapeva fare sto malandrino erano 1/ scegliere le sue epigrafe 2/ succhiare il proprio pene

[Anonymous No.16236338]

>>16236137
Leopardi = frocio schifoso, ma devo ammettere che lui m'ha fatto scoprire un emozione assai strana a metà strada tra il sbadiglio e la pena sincera per sto cazzo che pensava aver qualsiasi talento

[Anonymous No.16236357]

>>16234758
chi?
>>16234762
la sola opera volevola che ha fatta agamben era il suo ruolo nel vangelo di Pasolini. degli altri non mi stanchero' a parlare.

[Anonymous No.16236364]

>>16235826
Grasp thine throat and GRIP, thy philistine of culture.

[Anonymous No.16236395]

Per l'OP ti rispondero', fortunello che sei, ascoltami bene. In sta penisolo ci sono stati tre categorie di gente che sono valsi qualcosa: 1/ i poveri del mezzogiorno 2/ i pittori 2/ Orazio, Petronio, Dante, Visconti, Rossellini, Pasolini prima che diventasse una merda (cioè quando ha finito il vangelo), Anna Magnani e la carina nonna che mi alloggiava a Roma qualche anni fa. Basta.
>>16236357
valevola*

[Anonymous No.16236404]

>>16236357
>>16236338
>>16236311
(Tu)

[Anonymous No.16236406]

>>16236364
who is that

[Anonymous No.16236409]

>>16236357
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renzo_Novatore

[Anonymous No.16236417]

>>16236409
era ironia

[Anonymous No.16236529]

>>16236364
Name?

[Anonymous No.16236616]

>>16236417
boo

[Anonymous No.16236629]

>>16234643
Moose Linguini

[Anonymous No.16236785]

>>16235486
But you must admit that Perennialism itself is too eager to ignore differences in religions and philosophies so they can claim they all have 'the same source' or whatever

[Anonymous No.16236844]

>>16236406
>>16236529
Look, I get you're just lookin for a coom but I don't know.

[Anonymous No.16236858]

>>16234643
Unironically Stendhal

[Anonymous No.16236862]

>>16236785
Yes I would agree that is a common flaw in it, being in that way a reductive modern element. But it's still obviously not just an attempt to prove something true by its prominence in various cultures.

[Anonymous No.16236879]

Is gentile a real thinker or just a mussolinimeme?

[Anonymous No.16236941]

>>16236862
I would say it's taking neovedanta and then claiming every other religion is 'at it's core' or 'esoterically' basically neovedanta, then ignoring whatever contradicts that

[Anonymous No.16237693]

>>16234643
Bump for ITALIA

[Anonymous No.16237792]

Tommaso d'Aquino.

[Anonymous No.16237877]

>>16236879
Read Harris's book on him. He's not only a real thinker, he is *the* real thinker.

[Anonymous No.16237920]

>>16236879
He’s actually pretty legit

[Anonymous No.16237927]

Traditional vs organic intellectuals

Why does philosophy keep dogmatic tradition when it seems the tradition is dying precisely for its dogmaticism? White people scared?

[Anonymous No.16237957]

>>16237877

Reading his wiki, i think my tankie dick moved and I'm not even a tankie

[Anonymous No.16237968]

Why is it that most of Italy's great philosophers came from the south? The south is worse than the North in practically every metric (including quality of people), so you wouldn't expect them to have the better philosophical tradition.

[Anonymous No.16238003]

>>16237877
Whats the book called

[Anonymous No.16238042]

>>16237968
My friend, ask yourself this, who were the great philosophers of ancient Rome and Greece? Mediterraneans. (Phoenicians, Greeks, Italians mainly south, etc.)
>The south is worse than the North in practically every metric
Not simple as that, both are as important to Italy. Mediterraneans are more creative and imaginative than other peoples, but at the same time they are very volatile. Northern Europeans are better in modern civic cultures and economies for many reasons, the cold climate being one of them. However, the north is quite nihilistic in it's core, you can see that in most German philosophy for instance.

[Anonymous No.16238182]

>>16238003
The Social Philosophy of Giovanni Gentile. It's online here: https://archive.org/details/socialphilosophy0000unse/ .

You should also read Genesis and Structure of Society, available here: https://archive.org/stream/genesisstructure00gent

Harris has written a good foreword to it.

[Anonymous No.16238292]

>>16237968

From the cultural point of view, that's not exactly true. Northern Italy has some big cities and some interesting traditions, but bar some weird outliers most of the place is essentially a bunch of joyless rednecks. Venice for example isn't typically Northern Italian, it's Venice: and the stock population of the place is mountain people devoid of higher kultur or peasants that worked and obeyed Church and King just because, and even their higher classes weren't that removed from utter mediocrity.

[Anonymous No.16238526]

>>16234643
>60 posts
>only one mention of Vico

[Anonymous No.16238542]

>>16238042

You sold me on Italy. Although it feels like a circular drain where every Italian thought is destined to go down the drain as Italian rather than fly to heavens as a thought. Because the Italians are ultimately ignorant, selfish, prideful and useless. Nevermind. I talked myself out.

[Anonymous No.16239012]

>>16238542
Cretin.

[Anonymous No.16239090]

Bordiga

[Anonymous No.16239491]

>>16238042
>who were the great philosophers of ancient Rome and Greece? Mediterraneans.
>Civilizations centered on the Mediterranean have most of their great men come from the Mediterranean
Bravo Taleb. 10/10 best philosopher of all time

[Anonymous No.16239496]

>>16236844
>>16236529
anna speckhart

[Anonymous No.16239514]

>>16239491
I don't get your response, I was comparing Meds to northern Europeans.

[Anonymous No.16239576]

>>16234643
>>16234762
Machiavelli, Gramsci, Pareto and Negri are probably the most important Italian* philosophers.

*The designation "Italian" necessarily excludes ancient thinkers. I choose to include Machiavelli regardless of him predating the first Italian state, because he lived during the time of The Italic League where Italian culture emerged, prefiguring the later nation state(s).

[Anonymous No.16239595]

>>16237968
They are? I would say the vast majority of significant Italians are from no further south than Tuscany.

[Anonymous No.16239893]

>>16239595
Your ignorance on this matter is staggering to put it lightly.

[Anonymous No.16239951]

>>16239576
I don't think you can ignore Croce and Gentile as they defined all Italian culture from around the change of the century until the end of second world war.

[Anonymous No.16240103]

>>16239576
That's silly, Italy Is Over 2000 Years Old, it was unified by Rome in the third century BC.
>A sense of Italian national identity was reflected in Gian Rinaldo Carli's Della Patria degli Italiani, written in 1764. It told how a stranger entered a café in Milan and puzzled its occupants by saying that he was neither a foreigner nor a Milanese. "'Then what are you?' they asked. 'I am an Italian,' he explained."

[Anonymous No.16240214]

He took left wing syndicalism and somehow managed to bring it all the way to the right. The man is a genius. Terrible tactician, but a great political philosopher. Fascism is the only way truly forward.

[Anonymous No.16240396]

>>16240214
Early Italian fascism with its futurist influences was great desu.

[Anonymous No.16241397]

bordiga

[Anonymous No.16241401]

diego fusaro

[Anonymous No.16241486]

>>16239595
Aquinas and Vico alone dwarf every northern thinker except Machiavelli.

[Anonymous No.16241502]

>>16236941
From what I have heard from Evola, he doesn't seem like he was as into neovedanta as Guenon.

[Anonymous No.16241584]

>>16235135
Chads? I agree.

[Anonymous No.16241639]

>>16241502
He wasn't. Read "A Controversy Concerning the Vedanta" by Evola.

[Anonymous No.16242244]

>>16236395
>Pasolini prima che diventasse una merda (cioè quando ha finito il vangelo)
I've still to read most of his literary works and to watch his films, but do you really believe his value ended even before '68? I think that's a harsh judgement. (I'm Italian btw)

[Anonymous No.16242251]

>>16234643
Giovanni Tartufo

[Anonymous No.16242275]

>>16234643
Gramsci > Croce > Gentile > Evola

[Anonymous No.16242366]

>>16240214
>>16240396
Fuck the church, the monarchy, and the Germs for ruining what could’ve been

[Anonymous No.16242818]

>>16237792
This.
Thread closed.

[Anonymous No.16243130]

>>16238042
>Mediterraneans are more creative and imaginative than other peoples
Bullshit

[Anonymous No.16243281]

>>16243130
They literally are. France, Spain, Italy etc have been the centers of art for thousands of years

[Anonymous No.16243311]

>>16243130
Idiot, it's more than obvious they are.

[Anonymous No.16243440]

>>16234643
Trotsky isn't Italian silly

[Anonymous No.16243685]

>>16242244
L'avevo scoperto vedendo Mamma Roma e il Vangelo che ancora oggi ritengo capolavori. (sono francese e qui conosciamo solo teorema). Dopo ho visto teorema, une merda pretenziosa scevra di ogni qualità e odipo re che non ho nemmeno potuto finire. Col senno di poi teorema l'ho senz altro tollerato perché c'era il requiem da ascoltare. Poi la sua poesia è schifosa e i suoi saggi totalmente vuoti. Ne ho letto uno sulla giovinezza e la tragedia dove dice assolutamente niente. Generalmente in tutte le interviste dice assolutamente niente tranne l'unica idea che ha avuta, quella del anticonformismo, che ha espressa nel Vangelo. E mamma Roma l'ha potuto fare grazie alla Magnani, a Vivaldi (che ho dimenticato dell'elenco), e sopratutto grazie al fascino particolare dei poveri italiani. Dopo quelle due opera non aveva piu' niente da dire e purtroppo non si è fermato.

[Anonymous No.16243698]

>>16242244
ma scusi volevo chiederti, cos'è successo nel 68?

[Anonymous No.16243715]

>>16234643
Vico largely created the idea of a philosophy of history, his philogical and historical arguments are incredibly original, he disproves bigfoot, and pretty much came up with the idea of the end of history.....yeah it's Vico

[Anonymous No.16243862]

>>16243685
Sui film e sulla poesia non mi posso esprimere però il discorso che fa per esempio in Lettere Luterane sull'entrata dell'Italia nell'era dei consumi e la conseguente trasformazione antropologica mi è sembrato veramente importante, in un'epoca in cui tutti vedevano solo la ricchezza che aveva portato il boom economico e la politica voleva ritrarre il Paese in un certo modo. Poi parlava di legalizzazione delle droghe, per me sono affascinanti pure i discorsi che faceva sul calcio come ultimo momento sacro del nostro tempo. Ha raccontato grazie ai documentari l'Italia rurale e proletaria, il fatto che il fascismo non fosse riuscito a cambiare lo spirito del Paese, il valore di proteggere la bellezza delle città di carattere umanistico dall'urbanizzazione sfrenata ecc...
forse essendo italiano lo apprezzo maggiormente e non mi sto accorgendo di miei bias però, per quello che ho potuto ascoltare anche nelle varie interviste, credo che PPP sia stato un intellettuale di altissimo livello fino alla morte
>>16243698
beh la contestazione operaia/studentesca, in Francia credo fosse iniziata anche prima (?)

[Anonymous No.16243901]

>>16243862
Il 68 ha stato veramente il ponto storico più basso del secolo XX. Tutto è in una spirale discendente dopo questo. Fu un veleno per gli intellettuali europei che si sente fino oggi

[Anonymous No.16243929]

>>16243901
posso essere d'accordo fino a un certo punto, grazie al 68 la classe lavoratrice ha ottenuto reali benefici, le lotte sindacali hanno portato a maggiori tutele e via dicendo. La condizione della donna è oggettivamente migliorata. Questo si poteva ottenere solo con le sollevazioni di masse che sono avvenute.

[Anonymous No.16244010]

>>16243862
ah ok non sapevo che ci fosse stato la stessa cosa in italia. Per quanto riguarda l'intellettuale Pasolini, fratello non è questo un intellettuale 'di altissimo livello'. L'alto livello e' Einstein o Plato, non basta andare a chiedere alle milanese quante volte alla settimana scopano.

[Anonymous No.16244037]

>>16243901
Il punto piu' basso' è stato l'armistizio e la collaborazione francese. Nel 68 i giovani scesero per strada perché le lore genitori le facevano schifo, non è successo per caso.

[Anonymous No.16244039]

>>16234690
B
A
S
E
D

[Anonymous No.16244388]

>>16235135
So are all philosophers and men of note before 1950.
And most after 1950.
Being anti-racist is novel and doomed to fail.

[Anonymous No.16244417]

>>16235794
Amore mio! <3

[Anonymous No.16244434]

>>16240214
He came to power by following the orders of Christ.
And fell because he rejected his orders.
But he is vindicated.
Fascism is the way.
Ora pro nobis Sancte Mussolini.

[Anonymous No.16244443]

>>16240396
Futurism always appealed to me, even though I know it is impossible.
A kind of hopeless longing for a better future that is not to be.
Plus going fast.

[Anonymous No.16244466]

>no D'Annunzio
an italian author's greatest masterpiece should not be a fucking book but the life he led, since it is becoming of the Master Race of humans that they not only provide the world with immortal literature, but are also made legends in their own lifetimes

[Anonymous No.16244471]

Io ovviamente, e qualunque persone che non sia d'accordo è un pseud stronzo