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/lit/ - Literature


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16044105 No.16044105 [Reply] [Original]

For me, it's Nietzsche.

>> No.16044122

Some discussion questions to get us started.

What is your favorite discourse in Zarathustra, /nietz/? For me, I like The Lich and the scene where all of the higher men end up worshipping the donkey.

Also, what was Nietzsche's opinion on the relationship between science and philosophy? I know that the conscientious man in Zarathustra talks about science and Nietzsche does talk about science at one point in BG&E, but I can't remember what was said about it.

>> No.16044128

>>16044105
Been reading The Will to Power lately, it's my first work by Nietzsche and I find it great.
Though I gotta ask, sometimes it seems to me like Nietzsche is making phenomenological arguments or atleast phenomenological observations. I've tried finding interesting essays about it, but without much luck. Anyone else have some information about Nietzsche as a proto-phenomenologist?

>> No.16044146

>>16044105
Heidegger's lectures on Nietzsche are some of his best work. Investigate

>> No.16044153

>Remember, the simplest Surrealist act.

>> No.16044159

>>16044122
>Also, what was Nietzsche's opinion on the relationship between science and philosophy?
I think he thought that they were very close. I think there was a thing where he thought the will to power could be scientifically proven. And he saw the Uberman as man's real future in evolution so there is that factor as well.

>> No.16044203

>>16044128
>reading The Will to Power lately, it's my first work by Nietzsche
You think its easy to understand Will to Power having not read anything else by Nietzsche? I own that book as well but I intended it to be the last thing read by him.

Wish I could talk more about the phenomenology question you have, but I don't really understand what phenomenology is--guess I haven't progressed that far into philosophy yet.

>>16044146
I got Heidegger's lecture on phenomenology of spirit recently (unintentionally, thought I ordered the actual hegel book). I felt weird picking it up at the store considering Heidegger is a nazi. I think I might get and then read Heidegger's lectures on Nietzsche first since I'm much more familiar with Nietzsche than I am with Hegel (that is, not at all).

>> No.16044219

>>16044128
>Been reading The Will to Power lately, it's my first work by Nietzsche and I find it great.
Why do people insist on reading the distortions of his brainlet sister instead of any of his actual books?

>> No.16044223

>>16044203
>You think its easy to understand Will to Power having not read anything else by Nietzsche?
Would not really say it is easy to understand, some passages go right over my head, and some I have to spend alot of time on, but alot of the concepts and things i feel to be missing can be supplemented by reading other texts.

>> No.16044229
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16044229

What would we get if we placed them all together in a single room bros?

>> No.16044236
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16044236

>>16044105

>> No.16044241

>>16044219
these "distortions" were Nietzsche's own thoughts, they were notes written down in his own notebook, the only thing his sister did was remove and change somethings so it could be easier swallowed by the nazi leadership (i.e removing his praise of jews, his disdain for germans and their culture, his hate for nationalism etc.) The copy I am reading has had these errors corrected. These writings are not the "distortions" of his sister, it was nietzsche who wrote it and his sister who assembled the work after his death.

>> No.16044247

>>16044219
This

>>16044229
None of them would be able to handle the banter, maybe Nietzsche, but they'd all silk off. That's what I think would happen.

>> No.16044249

>>16044219
The only distortions Nietzsche's sister did was changing the recipient's name in some of his letters.

>> No.16044257

An anecdote I think about a lot: the first time I learned about Nietzsche was in senior year of high school. We were reading Crime and Punishment and our teacher had a couple lectures on Nietzsche, mainly focused on the ubermensch concept. He taught us that Crime and Punishment is a warning against the ubermensch mindset. Raskolnikov developed his own moral system outside the realm of christianity and attempted to make his moral system a reality--Raskolnikov's moral system was essentially "its okay to kill someone if it benefits society." This is a really common interpretation of Crime and Punishment, but the way he taught his lecture made it seem that 1. Crime and Punishment was made AFTER (and as a response to) Thus Spoke Zarathustra, which isn't true, and that 2. the Ubermensch is a universally despised concept. At no point in his lectures, did he suggest the ubermensch was anything 'good.' He strictly focused on Dostoevsky's warning (which I guess makes sense since we were reading his book). It wasn't until in the last two or so years, when I began reading and studying Nietzsche on my own, that I saw people discussing the ubermensch as a positive concept.

>> No.16044265

>>16044247
Have you read Nietzsche's letters? He's just as likely to silk off. Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky would probably liven things up rather than silk off. I'm not sure what Kafka's liable to do.

>> No.16044275
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16044275

>>16044223
>Would not really say it is easy to understand, some passages go right over my head

Don't worry too hard, that's all of Nietzsche's work. I remember reading Beyond Good and Evil first, barely understanding shit, then reading a lot more of his other works, and eventually going back to BG&E and understanding so much--more than I thought I'd ever be able to understand without a proper annotated guide. Nietzsche's thoughts on morals, truths, society, etc. are scattered throughout his entire life's work and sometimes it feels like putting together a massive puzzle.

>> No.16044276

>>16044236
Go team mini

>> No.16044374

Ok so hear me out this one. Nietzsche didn't like religion and alcohol because they validate mediocrity. That is they make you believe everything is fine and you don't need to work on self improvement. I think if Nietzsche were alive today he would say that watching porn also validates mediocrity because it convinces us that we are fine and we have no trouble finding a mate and we don't need to focus on self improvement at all.

Thoughts? Tell me to piss off if I'm wrong but this a thought I had a while ago.

>> No.16044396

>>16044374
I can see that, though I feel that Nietzsche's hatred of religion and alcohol go beyond what you suggest.

Does Nietzsche ever discuss drinking alcohol vs alcoholism? Moralcucks and underage will try to tell you there's no difference, but there is. There's a difference between watching porn and having a porn addiction as well.

>> No.16044402

>>16044396
Nietzsche himself drank so I think you're correct.

>> No.16044407 [DELETED] 

>>16044229
Kierkegaard, Nietszche and Dostoevsky watch as Kafka cuts his wrists and hangs himself

>> No.16044451

>>16044396
I would say Nietzsche's problem with alcohol was something similar enough to what his problem with religion was. He'd see christcucks getting criticised by atheists saying "You're just looking for an easy way out, you don't believe in any of this nonsense you just want to let the church do everything for you and tell you what to think" and then they'd knock back another pint right after they finished saying this.

Nietzsche said "Wait a minute how is what they're doing any different from what you're doing? You're just looking for an easy way out the same as these god believers when you spend the night drinking, for a while all your problems are solved and you are no different from the Christians"

The story goes that Nietzsche only drank water and I've read that the real reason he was against drinking was because one time he was caught in a drunken stupor at his college and he was humiliated and vowed never to do it again.

>"Alcohol and Christianity are two great narcotics in European history" -Nietzsche
He would say that alcohol and Christianity "validate mediocrity"

I feel like he was reasonable enough with it, like he wouldn't get too triggered if all you do is have half a glass of white wine on a Friday night once a week. Perhaps the same conclusions could be made from how we have porn today?

>> No.16044464

>>16044402
He drank water lmao

>> No.16044489

>>16044122
The pale criminal is breddy gud.

>> No.16044869

>What Belongs to Greatness. Who can attain to anything great if he does not feel in himself the force and will to inflict great pain? The ability to suffer is a small matter: in that line, weak women and even slaves often attain masterliness. But not to perish from internal distress and doubt when one inflicts great suffering and hears the cry of it - that is great, that belongs to greatness.
what did he mean by this?

>> No.16044897

>>16044869
The reigning morality of most times are imposed by immoral means. See christianity, even though it proposes a "life-denying" morality, turning the other cheek etc. It still commited horrid acts to spread it's morality, to be powerful one needs to smite enemies I guess?

>> No.16044916

Nietzsche was only against using alcohol in excess or in quantities that undermine one's intellectual potential. That's why he mainly criticized people in academia for it. He greatly admired the role Dionysian/Bacchanalian festivals played in Greek/Roman culture. Wine was an inseparable element of what he calls Dionysian intoxication, an opposite of Apollian sleep (both of which are a guise for reality.) It's no mistake that he called himself the last disciple of Dionysus (God of wine among others)

>> No.16044959

>>16044105
Nietzche was a retard that failed to understand religion is part of biological determinism, and that you can experience the benefits of religion without subscribing to any Abrahamic religion.


That's why he died the way he did, alone, sad and insane as he descended into the abyss

>> No.16044966

>>16044105
What to read after beyond good and evil? Twilight of the idols, the antichrist and the genealogy of morals all look interesting to me

>> No.16045049

>>16044105
Where should one start reading Nietzsche? We covered him in HS, but that was a really long time ago....this thread has me intrigued but I haven’t a clue as to where I should begin! Advice?

>> No.16045063

>>16044959
>that you can experience the benefits of religion without subscribing to any Abrahamic religion.
Nietzsche would have been a lot more interesting if he had gone full on pagan.

>> No.16045086

>>16045063
You are, of course, assuming he wasn’t. It’s not as though being pagan was exactly an accepted way of life.

>> No.16045092

>>16045049
Start with Beyond Good and Evil, Then read Twilight of The Idols.
:)

>> No.16045100

>>16044966
>>16045049
>>16044275

>> No.16045112

>>16045086
I am intrigued. Please redpill me

>> No.16045201

>>16044128
Anon. Will to Power isn't a real Nietzsche book. His sister took a couple of his notes and mixed them together with her proto-fascist (soon to become actual fascist) beliefs. The result is a work that Nietzsche would have undoubtedly denounced. His literary canon was already complete before then.

The best book to start with is Geneology of Morality.

>> No.16045229

>>16044257
Your teacher was retarded. They completely misinterpreted both authors.

>> No.16045246

>>16045229

Aren't most philosophy teachers retarded?
It attracts pseuds by its very nature

>> No.16045246,1 [INTERNAL] 

Hot Take: His best book is Human, All Too Human.

Nietzsche is at his very best when he's observing 'the human scene' with his cruel and funny aphoristic sniping.

This right here is one of my favorite passages, as Nietzsche celebrates the man who transcends politics, doesn't vote, hardly discusses current events with the herd because it'll freak them out:

Permission to speak!

The demagogic character and the intention to appeal to the masses is at present common to all political parties: on account of this intention they are all compelled to transform their principles into great al fresco stupidities and thus to paint them on the wall. This is no longer alterable, indeed it would be pointless to raise so much as a finger against it; for in this domain there apply the words of Voltaire: quand la populace se mêle de raissonaire, tout est perdu! (when the masses are involved, all is lost) Since this has happened one has to accommodate oneself to the new conditions as one accommodates oneself when an earthquake has displaced the former boundaries and contours of the ground and altered the value of one’s property. Moreover, if the purpose of all politics is to make life as endurable for as many as possible, then these as-many-as-possible are entitled to determine what they understand by an endurable life; if they trust to their intellect also to discover the right means for this goal, what good is there in doubting it? They want for once to forge for themselves their own fortunes and misfortunes; and if this feeling of self-determination, pride in the five or six ideas their head contains and brings forth, in fact renders their life so pleasant to them they are happy to bear the calamitous consequences of their narrowmindedness, there is little to be objected to, always presupposing that this narrowmindedness does not go so far as to demand that everything should become politics in this sense, that everyone should live accord- ing to such a standard. For a few must first of all be allowed, now more than ever, to refrain from politics and step aside: they too are prompted to this by pleasure in self-determination; and there also may be a degree of pride attached to staying silent when too many, or even just many, are speaking.

>> No.16045323

>>16045201
>His literary canon was already complete before then.
Well no it wasn't, he planned four volumes for his Revaluation of All Values, of which only the first, the Antichrist, was completed. Those notes undoubtedly contain a lot of content intended for the subsequent volumes. Also, just because it's a bunch of notes, doesn't mean it's bad. A will to a system is a will to weakness...

>> No.16045323,1 [INTERNAL] 

>>16045323

The Will to Power + Cambridge Edition of 'Early Notebooks' + Cambridge Edition of 'Late Notebooks' are all great readings to flesh out his thoughts.

But I'd read in this order:

1. The Birth of Tragedy
2. The Dawn
3. Human, All Too Human
4. Beyond Good and Evil
5. Genealogy of Morals
6. Truth and Lies in the Extra-Moral Sense
7. The Anti-Christ
8. Twilight
9. Zarathustra
10. Ecce Homo
11. Notebooks
12. Will to Power

I didn't read the stuff about Wagner, Schopenhauer, David Straus because I'd need to go check the source materials first.

>> No.16045323,2 [INTERNAL] 

>>16045323,1

Oops I forgot the Gay Science. It should be read after BGE

>> No.16045407

When I read Zarathustra, I remember reading something about Givingness. Anyone here knows where he talks about it ? Or if he evens say something about ?

>> No.16045466

>>16044959
>Nietzche was a retard that failed to understand religion is part of biological determinism,
Wrong.

>> No.16045677
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16045677

>> No.16045893

>>16045092
Much appreciated! Sometimes it’s so difficult to know where to begin, so begin I shall!

>> No.16045896

>>16044959
>I didn't read on the genealogy of morals
Ok retard

>> No.16045928

>>16045112
I’m not saying I know anything for sure, but he clearly has a poor opinion of Christianity while simultaneously aligning himself with Dionysus/Bacchus.....it merely makes one ask if, in fact, was he at the very least pagan-leaning. But in MOST Western societies doing so would lead to disaster - they don’t exactly have the best track record on the subject.....which is why most pagans have historically practiced in secret.

>> No.16046106

>nobody understands Nietzsche

>> No.16046144

>>16044959
>understand religion is part of biological determinism

what do i need to read to be this bluepilled?

>> No.16046580
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16046580

What am i in for?

>> No.16046599

>>16046580
Haven't read that one yet actually

>> No.16046610

>>16046599
No
I'm getting to Nietzsche now

>> No.16046637

>>16046610
Its a great book to start with and I'd highly recommend it. He discusses where good and bad come from and how christianity has effected our worldview. I hope you enjoy it.

>> No.16046689

>>16045677
Nietzsche dedicated most of his writings to tearing down other philosophies without building anything meaningful in their place, of course he's going to be perceived as a nihilist.
He knew nihilism was unsustainable, had some inkling as to how it was to be overcome, and tried to encourage others to take the leap, but he failed to do so himself.

>> No.16046726

>>16046689
>but he failed to do so himself.
No he didn't

>> No.16046764

>>16046689
>we don't know how to do it so it's impossible!!!
Let me guess... Christcuck?

>> No.16046850

>>16046726
oh ok then
>>16046764
Literally never said that

>> No.16047294

I got Kauffmans "Basic Writings of Nietzsche" and "The Portable Nietzsche," should I start with GoM because of it's more essay style (haven't read a lot of philosophy,) or BoT?

>> No.16047341

>>16044219
Absolute ignorant retard spotted. They are manuscripts. What his sister did was the arrangement, the thing has been investigated and rearranged

>> No.16047454

>>16046850
He knew that there would be a void after the death of christianity and made a point of saying we should fill it.

>> No.16047469

>>16047341
She manipulated his writings

>> No.16047509

>>16047469
Tried her best to impress her nazi husbandu with her brother's work. Very sad.

>> No.16047541

>>16046580
I wrote an essay from this book without reading anything about Nietzsche or philosophy in general. I didnt get the best grade.

>> No.16047544

>>16047469
This has been investigated. Elisabeth manipulated the recipients' names of about ten letters written by N. Mostly letters to N's mom changed to being letters to Elisabeth. This is the only retouching she did.

>> No.16047574

>>16047544
>In 1887, Therese Elisabeth Alexandra Förster-Nietzsche, the younger sister of philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, left Germany and moved to South America. Her aim was to create a utopian society consisted of only the Aryan race in the San Pedro region of Paraguay. The initial idea was that of her husband, Bernhard Förster, who was one of the leading figures in the anti-Semitic faction of a right-wing political party in Germany. The couple established the district Nueva Germania in Paraguay, where today some German descendants still live.
>However, she assumed the role of editing Nietzsche’s manuscripts and in so doing, reworked them to fit her nationalist ideology, which was quite often opposite the stated opinions of her brother. Years before, when told of his sister and brother-in-law’s plans to create a German colony, he had reportedly responded with mocking laughter. Nietzsche spoke out against anti-Semitism before his breakdown and his friendship to Richard Wagner was strained because of the composer’s views.
>Förster-Nietzsche used her brother’s name to publish his manuscripts containing ideas that contradicted his views and adhered to her own. She died at the age of 89 in 1935, exactly 35 years after the death of her brother. Her funeral was attended by several high-ranking German officials, including Hitler himself.

>> No.16047623

Did he ever defend the presumption that our goal should be the Ubermensch?
AFAIK, in Zarathustra he only states that it's what animals do generally - evolve, but doesn't really say why it should be our goal too. Also, we could say that the animals we evolved from didn't evolve purposefully by their will.

Also, what does he really mean by the death of God? At first I thought he meant the west abandoning tradition and ideals, but I'm not sure now..

>> No.16047774

>>16047454
Yes, that's exactly what I said, except I also added that he himself failed to fill in the hole.

>> No.16047809
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16047809

>>16044105
Foe me it's Nietzsche->Klages->Heidegger->Sloterdijk

>> No.16048010

Would Nietzsche still preach his teachings if he'd be born in Chad body?

>> No.16048167

>>16044105
I am a fan of this pure polishman as well

>> No.16048244

>>16048167
He kept his work polished. In all seriousness though he was a german. A self hating german.

>> No.16048606

>>16048010
I think so. What Nietzsche and Chad have in common is that they both got too much attention from women. Nietzsche grew up in a predominantly female household where he was the only male and all the women love Chad anyway. So they both got all the female attention they needed.

>> No.16049244

>>16047623
Bumpin

>> No.16049304

>>16049244
Wahey wahoo I'm bumpin too

>> No.16049334

>>16048167
Polishman? Are you a retard?

>> No.16049526

Any literature recommendations for a brainlet that wants to learn more about Nietzschean thought without having to put up with the man's edgy polemics? Preferably fiction.

>> No.16049584
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16049584

>>16044122
The one on war and warriors. Also the passage about last man is maybe the saddest thing I ever read

>> No.16049800
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16049800

>>16049334
>>16048244
not one drop of German blood!

>> No.16049872

>>16044229
Were Nietzsche actually an existentialist?

>> No.16050258

>>16049584
>The one on war and warriors
based

i dont know how you cant read that and not feel motivated

>> No.16050402
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16050402

Sup guys, check out this video!!1