/lit/ - Literature

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/wg/ - Writing General #2 Anonymous Fri Jul 31 17:31:35 2020 No.16013458 [Reply] [Original]

For talking about the craft.
Last one was excellent lads, keep it up.
Previous: >>16005171

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 17:32:49 2020 No.16013464 Has anyone here transitioned into writing screenplays from specifically writing novels and short stories? https://www.ivanachubbuck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Good-Will-Hunting-Entire-Screenplay.pdf

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 17:56:21 2020 No.16013596 Is it possible to get published if you don't cater to the woke narrative?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:21:36 2020 No.16013771 >>16013596 Yeah, most big, popular published books aren't woke, there are a lot of small boutique publishers who flood the space with woke pretentious garbage where the author gets paid 3000 in the course of 10 years, but it's non viable.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:31:02 2020 No.16013843

>>16013464
I actually transitioned from being an unsuccessful screenwriter to being an unsuccessful novelist.

I really didn't find much different. With screenwriting, you just cut out pretty much all description an leave it as a bare bones dialog driven narrative basically, you let the actors and directors to fill in the gaps. With regular writing, you fill in everything.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:33:54 2020 No.16013865

>>16013596

Well, get what published, specifically?

But in general, I used to get published fairly regularly, but since the woke stuff started getting real nuts, within the last year or two, my publishing has all but dried up.

I've also seen a dramatic increase in magazines going fucking bonkers. I came across one the other day that advertised that its next is going to be titled "We are all antifa!" and it's going to be based on the notion that antifa is noble and right, and trump is so evil for not liking them, and also they want 50% of the writers to be black.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:41:38 2020 No.16013914 >>16013865 Do you write things that would offend woke sensibilities or is it just not diverse enough/you're not minorityu enough?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:45:22 2020 No.16013943 Would I stand more of a chance getting my novel published under a male or female pseudonym?

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:48:32 2020 No.16013967

>>16013914

I think I just tend to ignore race and wokeness in general, just not something that interests me, or that I really have anything worth saying over.

Definitely within the summer and fall issues of most everything, I would expect pretty much everyone to devote their entire issues to wokeness. Some places I saw say you have to sign a diversity statement if you want to get published. I just ignore them and look elsewhere. I would imagine all this will pass over, and if not I bet most of these mags will just go out of business until they come to their senses.

I don't know why, but the publishing industry seems to think of itself of the frontline in race relations and wokenes, and they've been desperately trying to find minority voices for years now, with not much success.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:48:38 2020 No.16013969 >>16013464 I did. I basically just follow Eisenstein's theory of montage and a modified, simplified version of Truby's manual.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:50:18 2020 No.16013979 >>16013967 It's almost as if minorities are minorities because there aren't that many of them

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:52:36 2020 No.16013991 >>16013969 >modified, simplified version of Truby's manual where can I find this specifically?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:52:37 2020 No.16013992 >>16013979 Yeah...that's weird huh? They should pass a law or something to make more of them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:55:56 2020 No.16014016 This is the third one OP I have been obsessing over a great dark fantasy idea the last few days and I'm actually gonna write it this time Only problem is I have no idea how to write romance which will be an element of the story Any pointers?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:56:43 2020 No.16014025 >>16014016 Tell us a synopsis of the story or characters you need to romance so we have something to work with

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:58:54 2020 No.16014041 >>16013991 If you mean Truby's book, you can buy it on amazon. It's also on libgen. If you mean the modified manual, you can't because I wrote it myself.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 18:59:46 2020 No.16014046 >>16014041 t-thanks... I guess

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 19:14:49 2020 No.16014153

>>16014016

Make it so that the female love interest physically exudes some sort of drug that the mc becomes addicted to.

And then....oh shit...get this! Then a third girl comes into the mix, a third love interest, she physically exudes the antidote for the drug addiction!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 19:21:13 2020 No.16014195 >>16014153 That sounds gay. Switch the genders and sell it as a YA and girls will love it

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 19:22:57 2020 No.16014209

>>16014016
A couple notes about romance:

1. Romance stories have very predictable beats (the meet-cute, the misunderstanding, the reconciliation, the sacrifice etc.) Study a few classic romance film, like It Happened One Night, The Apartment, and Roman Holiday (I guess you could also read Romeo or Juliet or something but the language can be distracting since you only care about the structure) and take note of the beats that are in common. Roman Holiday is especially useful and should be watched last because it twists all the usual beats. Especially fruitful is comparing RH with IHON.

2. Please, please, please, don't do the usual fantasy thing and make the woman a prize for the man, i.e just pure eyecandy. This isn't because of any SJW muh wimins reason but simply because its been so overdone that you're better off omitting romance entirely instead. In a good romance, both participants are main characters. This is extremely important. Look to the movies I suggested above for reference.

3. Remember that the characters love each other and want to be together but that a romance story is about why they're apart. You can contrive reasons (our parents hate each other, I'm poor she's rich, I'm from Mars she's from Venus, I'm a professor of literature she's a 12 year old girl etc.) but it's stronger to write their deepest traits in fundamental conflict Usually the female is the "healing goddess" the one who helps the male overcome some flaw in his personality (or she leaves him because of it) but this is often inverted (see movies above).

4. If the romance is a sideplot, then be flexible and combine it with some other purpose. Put the lover at risk, kill her off to raise the stakes, make her betray the main character, make her the villain, make her the comedic relief, and so on. But still pay attention to #2, don't make her flat because then the romance is just a form of reward and at that point you may as well just write porn.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 19:38:52 2020 No.16014324 >>16014195 Oh yeah, I get it, act like you didn't just hurriedly jot that down to steal it.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 20:11:33 2020 No.16014528

>>16014016
No relationship is the same, maybe your weird take on it will be actually a positive point. Write the romance you have in mind now, and edit the shit later. You're going to write it because it contributes to the story and not because you think there has to be romance, r-right?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 20:19:03 2020 No.16014565 File: 15 KB, 567x503, B24D2B6B-1A20-481E-8E90-27ABA7573AB1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Reply with your favourite short story collections, your favourite story from it, and why you like it so much right now! I need inspiration.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 20:20:42 2020 No.16014571
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>>16014209
>You can contrive reasons (our parents hate each other, I'm poor she's rich, I'm from Mars she's from Venus, I'm a professor of literature she's a 12 year old girl etc.)
You forgot the most important one: "she has a dick". Hephaestion was the best waifu.

>>16014565
>I need inspiration.
Keep a dream diary, then develop each night's dreams into short stories.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 20:21:46 2020 No.16014575

>>16014016
Write dark and angry protagonist, basically a Heathclift. The love interests would be his slave/servant against their will. Make it an abusive relationship, love hate etc etc, then have the girls moments of power for bonus feminist points but subtly keep the theme of male domination throughout. That way you have the appearance of being woke and at the same cater to the female deepest desire

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 21:00:27 2020 No.16014748 >>16014575 Hey, it worked for the first and third Star Wars trilogy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 21:01:03 2020 No.16014753 >>16014575 Isn't this literally every trashy romance novel? Wasn't 50 Shades exactly this?

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 21:52:43 2020 No.16015033

A small contribution to literary theory that I've been pondering for the last week:

Suspense can be created by understanding and employing the concept of the absurd. Absurdity is defined by Albert Camus as "the gap between intention and reality". The example he gives is that of a man charging a machine gun nest armed only with a saber. This gives us a good foundation for understanding how a writer may create, manipulate, and maintain suspense in a work of narrative fiction.

Simply put, a suspenseful situation is one in which a character's ability and experience are outstripped by the forces which oppose them in their goal. It is the goal of the writer to widen this gap as much as possible without straining credulity and breaking the suspension of disbelief by creating a problem which can not be resolved except through the introduction of a deus ex machina. The problem must be one which the protagonist can not ignore: a threat against their survival is very common, but large financial sums or material/sentimental loss also work. Typically the protagonist stands to lose much more than they gain. Very often, success means a return to their position at the beginning of the story.

A story which succeeds in this endeavor is "The Most Dangerous Game", wherein a big game hunter, Rainsford, falls overboard and winds up on an island inhabited by the psychotic aristocrat, General Zaroff, who hunts men for sport. The General has far more experience than Rainsford, not only with hunting in general, but with the terrain of his island in particular. Rainsford is quickly proven to be no match for Zaroff, who follows Rainsford's trail and avoids his traps with ease. Rainsford stands to gain nothing but his own survival by defeating Zaroff. The writer actually manages to weave several layers of suspense. Above the level of Rainsford attempting to survive Zaroff's challenge, we wonder: even if Rainsford survives for three days, will Zaroff really let him leave? We also see Rainsford struggling with problems beneath the main conflict: at one point Zaroff sends his hounds after Rainsford, which creates another problem which Rainsford must conquer before he can return to the original problem of Zaroff, which by itself seems insurmountable. The story has several technical issues (pacing, description), but thoroughly succeeds in terms of theme and plot.

Do you guys think I'm on to something original, or is this just pseudophrenia? I'll admit it's pretty rough and not fully developed, but it feels like I've struck the foundation of suspense on a level you don't see in a lot of advice articles, which mostly focus on technical advice like "write short sentences." I can expand on this if you guys think it's helpful.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 22:02:29 2020 No.16015099

>>16013914
This is a perfect instance of that old Nietzche quote, "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you"
Deliberately casting your mind on woke themes will confine you to its lobotomizing logic and banalities. Anyone who deliberately contemplates conforming their creations to fit the woke narrative isn't an artist, but a propagandist. Such people can only be viewed with contempt.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:09:43 2020 No.16015554 File: 63 KB, 194x185, Lit quarterly.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16013458 Where have anons been published?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:19:44 2020 No.16015604 >>16015554 any published author would unironically have their careers ruined if it was figured out that they posted on 4chan, the normie association is that 4chan = /pol/

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:23:20 2020 No.16015624 >>16015604 Tao Lin exists, has even written about 4chan in an ironic way, and has flourished past being cancelled over statutory rape. You're just a coward and fear backlash that nearly every author has to face over being "problematic"

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:25:36 2020 No.16015632

>>16015033
That makes sense, the suspense is increased by the extent that is the predator-prey relationship, if you maximize the predator-prey dichotomy to it's limits, then it'll lose realism (in terms of reader relation) the goal is to extend it as far as you can while still being believable, by extension of the protagonist being a prey, the reader is so, too.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:26:43 2020 No.16015644 >>16015624 That's dumb. The other poster is merely saying that attaching your real name to 4chan is a risk people would be conscious of. Nobody but a retard (you) would disagree.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:30:13 2020 No.16015664 >>16015644 Then stop posting here.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:33:46 2020 No.16015692 >>16015664 When is the last time an anon here posted their published work here?

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:37:37 2020 No.16015724

>finish first draft of first novel at 142k words
>read & toss because deeply flawed and was pure trash
>rework it, get 62k in
>much better, but not where I want it going, so I toss it again
>now 31k into third attempt, outlining for everything done and am happy with it so far
>feel like I'm wasting time sticking to one project

Should I shelve it, anons?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:38:29 2020 No.16015728 >>16015692 ESL? reza negarestani for one if you want someone who isn't famous, then there is an australian anon called lewis woolston >>/lit/thread/S14476815#p14477766

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:39:50 2020 No.16015735

>>16015724
Complete it & upload it to one of those sites where you can turn your word doc into a novel, then put it on your bookshelf. It might have some great ideas that aren't executed professionally. It's also a great memento that indicates your progress.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:41:03 2020 No.16015743 >>16015724 If you've done that much work and it's going well now why the fuck would you stop? It'd be different if you were making no progress but stopping now sounds stupid based on what you wrote.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:41:18 2020 No.16015745

>>16015033
According to the genius level physicist David Deutsch a good explanation is one whose terms are difficult to vary. Meaning, if you can substitute many variables for the premise and get the same consequent, it isn't a good theory.
In your case I feel that you could substitute the "absurd" for many other things. Like courage, love, insanity. You would have to establish a more rigorous definition of what you mean by the absurd and I am not satisfied by what Camus has to say about it.
Granted, not everybody has such an autistic view on literary theory as me. I do think on some level it is a crapshoot. But Deutsch's statement is essentially a philosophical one and isn't confined strictly to scientific explanations.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 23:55:57 2020 No.16015813

>>16015724
>feel like I'm wasting time sticking to one project

no, finish what you start. Doing otherwise leads you down deviantart tier fanfiction style of starting shit and tossing it the moment the going gets tough or something else grabs your attention

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:02:34 2020 No.16015838

start, he didn't know how to start
he kept asking questions on how to start
i'm glowing with ideas on my idea to start but I didn't know so i thought I'd ask on how to start
he's telling me one thing but I wouldn't know until I start, but to heck with that start instead i should start
he kept asking how to start start start

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:10:35 2020 No.16015881 Writing multi-chaptered smut as we speak.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:11:19 2020 No.16015886

>>16015838
Write about a stray dog fondling a blooming bush with his pointy nose. Then proceed to telling how the oncoming passerby that the narrator managed to see as he stood staring at the dog had a bouquet in his hands of flowers much alike the ones the dog was sniffing.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:19:14 2020 No.16015929

>>16015745
>In your case I feel that you could substitute the "absurd" for many other things. Like courage, love, insanity.
I don't follow. Absurd might not be the right word, but the concepts you listed seem to fit much worse. How could suspense be generated by stretching "love" to it's limits without breaking credulity?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:24:27 2020 No.16015955
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I wish I could create simple hooks. Like just an example, Misery's hook draws you in right off the bat and its like a sentence long. "Author is trapped alone with his crazy number 1 fan"
Idk I feel very unlearned and uninspired.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:26:56 2020 No.16015968 >>16015813 Agreed, the importance of building the habit of finishing writing projects can't be understated.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:37:16 2020 No.16016036 >>16013943 Yes

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 00:41:29 2020 No.16016061 >>16015692 >>16015728 Stumped retard? Where is your response?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 01:40:57 2020 No.16016389 How much should you rush the first draft if you have a rather detailed outline? Is it better to write blandly to spew everything out, or take time in some places to better convey whatever the fuck you're jotting down?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 01:46:26 2020 No.16016409 >>16016389 Do whatever you want you fucking retard

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:11:31 2020 No.16016540 I've realized that I'm only insecure in my writing because I'm fat

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:20:17 2020 No.16016591 >>16016540 Writing is literally the best outlet for fat people, what could you possible be afraid of? Even using a pen name is normal, you can complete disassociate from your fatness

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:27:27 2020 No.16016637 >>16016591 I guess I mean that my writing insecurity stems from my overarching insecurity of being fat in general Time to get shredded so I can confidently write in peace.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:32:15 2020 No.16016666

I don't understand when people say that half of having a successful novel is luck, if not the majority reason. Popular authors routinely say this, everyone says this. I'm under the impression that if you write an amazing book, it will eventually become big. Am I wrong?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:32:33 2020 No.16016668 >>16016637 Just care about books. Nearly every successful author is skinnyfat.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:35:43 2020 No.16016691 >>16016668 Skinnyfat is only important in regard to health consequences and relative lack of muscle mass, it doesn't look that bad or impede your mobility the way actual fatness does.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:36:44 2020 No.16016697 >>16016666 You are entirely wrong. It's not luck though it's just shoving your book in everyones faces and screaming to the ends of the earth to market it.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:39:01 2020 No.16016713

>>16016666
The guy who wrote A Confederacy Of Dunces couldn't get published for years, had a breakdown, and committed suicide. His book only made it to print a decade later after his mom took the manuscript around harassing people until someone actually read it. It's now a classic novel.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:39:50 2020 No.16016720 >>16016713 I wish my mom would do that for me.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 02:56:16 2020 No.16016808

>>16013458
I am a writing genius and have primarily learnt my craft from writing constantly on 4chan and /lit/, and I have ceased to regularly write down my thoughts because of how quickly they come and how easily I solve them, and in respect to how I understand they will not be used until far in the future in accordance with a specific act such as reading a figure.

I just need to read and write some more... and I'll be there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 03:00:22 2020 No.16016838 >>16016666 A deal with the devil won't help you!

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 03:02:51 2020 No.16016852 >>16016697 Pretty much this. You can eliminate the whole element of luck simply via relentless shilling. The more time and money you pour into advertising, the more popular you'll get. It's the guaranteed Disney formula.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 04:31:54 2020 No.16017280 >>16015099 >>16013914 Fitting the anti-woke narrative isn't a good move either. Before there was woke, there was no anti-woke. So the best thing is to find (rediscover) what a thinking devoid of the woke/antiwoke dichotomy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 04:34:48 2020 No.16017295 why do i keep seeing that cover

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 04:43:40 2020 No.16017345 File: 116 KB, 700x466, 1563631537650.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How old were you when you finished writing your first full-fledged work of fiction? Assuming you have, of course

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 04:55:13 2020 No.16017383
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>First work spirals into a mega project
>Reached the word count of Return of the King
>Only halfway done

Anyone have advice for long term projects and keeping up the pace? It's like a baby that I can never abandon but I get tired of taking care of it for periods of time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 05:17:49 2020 No.16017462 >>16017345 Define "full-fledged work of fiction". I think everyone has written short stories in elementary school, at the very least.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 05:19:08 2020 No.16017466 >>16017383 Cut, cut, cut, cut, cut.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 05:57:04 2020 No.16017611 >>16017280 Anyone who has any kind of soul is already doing this. There is unfortunately risk that your work will get caught in the crossfire once you send it out into the world though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 06:05:52 2020 No.16017638 File: 126 KB, 632x499, 20200801_193400.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Is there any place worse for writer's discourse than reddit? They just talk like this back and forth.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 06:34:05 2020 No.16017769 >>16017638 I hate reddit so much

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 07:03:34 2020 No.16017906 >>16017638 >oh no my internet points

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 07:36:58 2020 No.16018010 >>16015955 IMDB has one-line hooks for every movie. Get sum inspiration from there.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 07:40:53 2020 No.16018029

>>16015728
>reza negarestani
>"I once in a while get these gossip screenshots from the pits of WWW. I must be honest I've looked at 4chan, it's not too cognitively maimed and not too mentally promising either. But what is up with these kids? Haven't they taken their vitamic C for the past 10 years?"
Holy crap, he does sound like a /lit/poster.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 07:45:54 2020 No.16018046

>>16017383
Is return of the king even that large? I had a paperback that was rather handy, maybe the width of 2.5 fingers.

Cut the shit up in parts though. If you go above 100k words, the chances of publishing it sink exponentially with each 10k words more unless you're already famous.

And then when you have multiple books, you can focus on the pacing of each, ensuring the stuff works on a smaller scale.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 07:57:30 2020 No.16018101 >>16016808 You're probably not a genius

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 08:18:16 2020 No.16018190

>>16018046
RotK is 137k words.

But yeah, no, don't go for the multiple books meme, especially if it's your first work. Just don't. If your word count nears or crosses 100k with no end in view, then it does not, in all likelihood, mean you have struck a gold vein so big it won't fit in one cart. But, more likely, you're writing tons and tons of completely uninteresting, unnecessary, superfluous, meandering fluff that is better off removed altogether.

In that case, it's time to take a step back and look at the big picture. Go through the draft from the beginning and ask yourself, "would removing this segment cause everything to fall apart and make the narrative incomprehensible? Is there something vitally significant here the reader absolutely needs to reach the end?" Or is it just there because you think it's "nice", the way the 80th pair of shoes your girlfriend buys are "nice"? Maybe it's time to do some life-saving surgery on your baby.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 09:23:38 2020 No.16018526 I'm gonna ask it: what are you lads writing? Don't vomit on me, just give me the tip

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 09:29:29 2020 No.16018544

>>16018526
I'm writing what started out as a fairly concrete idea of exploring identity as a veteran in the US but has rapidly become extremely experimental. I still like and believe in the ideas I had in mind when I started writing, but I'm also just having a lot of fun going a little off the deep end.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 10:20:52 2020 No.16018809 >>16017638 I can think of one place, yeah...

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 10:21:58 2020 No.16018813 >>16018544 >experimental Always hate when people use this. Basically, you mean you have no idea what you're doing, and this thing you're doing became incoherent.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 10:23:30 2020 No.16018827 >>16018809 Then why post here if you imply it's shit? Never understood why /lit/ gets flac

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 11:05:41 2020 No.16019088 >>16018827 Not him but for me it's the format. If you know any other site with a relatively large community and no need to make an account, I'm all ears.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 11:15:07 2020 No.16019150
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>try to write fiction
>begin well, make a story about a king or officer or something
>immediately devolves into the protagonist's monologues and the abstract way in which he sees the world
>protagonist's ramblings become my own and he's no longer who I wished him to be, now he's another copy of myself
>bin the project and begin anew, invariably falling prey to the same trap
Has modernism got to me, anons? How do I escape this cycle? How do I not write about me me me me?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 11:51:08 2020 No.16019400 >>16016637 It worked for G.K Chesterton.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 11:55:40 2020 No.16019431
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>>16018190
>>16018046
A fair assessment. The reason the book has stretched on so long that it has three distinct parts that all needed their own build up. The first part being traditional historical fiction fare requires fleshing out the period setting for the audience who may not just innately know so much about Renaissance history. The second part is the establishment of sci-fi elements through some aliens interacting with and helping the protagonist who is trapped in a predicament. So besides resolving her situation I have to get the groundwork for the alien's culture which is similar to modernity fleshed out as well as the secret alt-history of humans interacting with them. The third part then details the estranged protagonist living as an outcast before deciding violent takeover of the country and resolves all the themes built up in the first two parts (wow a dialectic, based and hegel pilled!).

The original format I was writing for was a Visual Novel and they average anywhere from a quarter million words to a million, as the reader expects a gratuitous amount of immersive reading to justify their purchase. My plan was to post it on one of those online sites WattPad or whatever one chapter a day to build interest and leverage my z-list e-celeb following for the initial views. Then after getting feedback from a few hundred readers do a final edit and try to get a deal with a indie VN company to get the art and music done.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 11:57:17 2020 No.16019446 >>16013596 A couple chapters into Antkind and Charlie Kaufman is skewering the woke stuff hard. Dunno if that changes later on though. Also the man is a hugely popular screenwriter already so that might have helped

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 11:59:53 2020 No.16019464 >>16014565 The Nine Billion Names of God by Arthur C Clarke, from his collected short stories It's the single greatest horror story ever written, and by a man who wrote science fiction for a living

>>	Sage Sat Aug 1 12:01:06 2020 No.16019470 >>16019150 Just write on you then. When you wrote it all and get tired of repeating you, you'll advance.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:05:55 2020 No.16019500 >anon recommends truby's anatomy of story >~400 pages fuck, I want to be able to write asap, how do I approach this book?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:12:17 2020 No.16019546

>>16019431
>estranged protagonist living as an outcast before deciding violent takeover of the country
Based.

Although with the parts before that, it feels you're overestimate the amount of build up needed. The information to flesh the shit out is definitely important for you as the writer but only traces of it are needed for the reader to understand and get immersed into the story. Check out papa's Iceberg theory if you haven't already (https://www.turnerstories.com/blog/2019/7/29/how-to-use-the-iceberg-theory-to-tell-compelling-stories))

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:15:18 2020 No.16019566 >>16019500 Same anon. Try skipping to the exercises. Anything you don't understand go back and re-read that section.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:16:02 2020 No.16019572 >>16018813 sounds like you're speaking from personal experience there, that's pretty specific!

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:23:24 2020 No.16019635

>>16019546
Yeah I totally understand that aspect of things, basically omitting information at all turns to give the impression of depth and let the reader assume what is going on. I'm certainly not just info dumping and there is plenty of action spaced throughout the story. A book that I quite like, Seveneves by Neal Stepehson is fuck huge and the first half is an expertly told procedural drama of an apocalypse scenario. He basically leaves nothing untold but it is still entirely compelling to read.

In this case it requires a big set up for the reader to then buy the whole sci-fi magic upending Renaissance society resolution. If I just say, its magic ain't gotta explain shit, then it just comes across as cheap chuuni nonsense. I will definitely be trimming some stuff down once this draft is done but it will probably clock in at least 180 to 200k. And besides I don't care if the book is financially successful I just want people to read it so I can discuss the ideas I'm interested in with other human beings. Anyways thanks anons, I'll get back to work.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:30:25 2020 No.16019677 >>16019431 Boy now I feel very stupid for replying at all

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:38:43 2020 No.16019715

>>16019677
Yes regale us all with how you have encapsulated the essence of real literature and published works at the standard of quality and style that will be entered into the English canon after your death and lucky rise to fame. The perfect is the enemy of the good, and there are youtube videos about the history of some faggot's minecraft server that will have more human engagement then anything we ever write. Yes it is some genre fiction nonsense, but again the billion dollar porn game franchises based off of basement level prose will still have more cultural impact and memetic existence than anything you or I write.

Feel free to live up to the intelligentsia's idea of classic literature for a base of readers and consumers that won't even exist by the end of the century. Make trash for the trash world so at least some people consume it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:39:24 2020 No.16019718 >>16016808 >I am a writing genius Prove it

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:43:18 2020 No.16019744 >>16019715 Based and redpilled.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 12:47:26 2020 No.16019768

>>16019572
I think any writer who's honest and actually tries new things has ran into that. Whereas most just scrap the idea, or rework it somehow, idiots just muster right through it and create some indecipherable bullshit, which they then try to pass off as "experimental".

I would mind it so much if most lit mags weren't like 75% full of this garbage.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:09:13 2020 No.16019909 >>16019768 >indecipherable bullshit maybe it's neither indecipherable nor bullshit, and you can't decipher it. how do you know it's bullshit if it's indecipherable?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:14:13 2020 No.16019944 >>16019909 >how do you know it's bullshit if it's indecipherable? Because it's indecipherable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:17:32 2020 No.16019975 >>16019944 >i believe this is indecipherable >this is factually indecipherable can you explain to me the difference between these two statements

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:23:44 2020 No.16020030 >>16016389 You should just write your first draft and get as much of your idea on the page as possible. Don't worry about style or anything like that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:28:23 2020 No.16020071 >>16019715 I don't think your weeb epic with ancient aliens justifies getting on a horse that high

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:28:39 2020 No.16020074 >>16014565 "Ficciones", by Borges. My favorite story: Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius The motherfucker turned metaphysics into a fiction.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:35:33 2020 No.16020118 >>16020074 Please refrain from talking about Borges, knowing a blind man is one of the best and most loved writers ever makes me feel inadequate.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:37:07 2020 No.16020129 >>16020118 Why would blindness affect writing ability? He wasn't blind from birth or anything.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:39:44 2020 No.16020145

>>16019975
Because it's random bullshit thought up by a moron who has no idea what he's doing, who then just tries to cheat and pass it off as an incredibly intricate and complex narrative thought up by a total genius.

It's pretty much the number 1 go to technique for really bad artists.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:40:07 2020 No.16020150

>>16020071
Sure, but there are ton of idiots on /lit/ who obsess over trying to be the next Cormac, write garbage anyways, or don't write at all for fear of not being enough like a famous author. Just encourage people to write in general, stop with the bucket crab mentality it just comes off as extremely cringe to see nobodies try to be taste makers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:42:53 2020 No.16020167 >>16020145 you stated your personal beliefs pretty fluently there! i was almost convinced.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:45:26 2020 No.16020185

>>16015099
>Deliberately casting your mind on woke themes will confine you to its lobotomizing logic and banalities
Satire chameleons played straight can absolutely thread the needle. It has to be inscrutably vanilla and PC to the uninitiated (or bog standard mind)

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:45:38 2020 No.16020187 How do I become the next DFW?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:47:10 2020 No.16020196 >>16020187 read a lot and write a lot. a nice first step will be just doing more than you're doing right now

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:47:40 2020 No.16020204 >>16020187 >graduate the top of your class, so consistently get top marks in every course you take in undergrad >switch over to an MFA after undergraduate >read while you do all this and copy a bunch of pynchon and delillo

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:49:39 2020 No.16020215

>>16015033
Unreliable narrators writ large, slippage leading to incommensurable interpretations of events, all clashing with the author/reader surveying it, questioning what's fictive or confabulated even within the narrative to its players. Haneke films approach this.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 13:56:46 2020 No.16020268
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Wonder if any /lit/erati can give me some advice.

I've finished up my degree in English Lit and luckily have received offers for study it at Master's level.

However, I also put in an application for a Creative Writing MA. It's the most prestigious and selective one in my country, where Sebald taught and Kazuo Ishiguro graduated from, and they have a long, long list of published alumni. I have just found out they're offering me a place.

On the one hand, spending a year improving my writing and paving the way to my dream of becoming a published author sounds like a dream come true. However I worry it is more of a risk and a less 'safe' choice, that I might not be able to teach in places I might have otherwise if my writing doesn't pay off.

Do I go for it or not?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:03:00 2020 No.16020305 >>16020268 Art is inherently risky. If you worry about risk, it's a bad idea to put all of your eggs into that basket.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:09:08 2020 No.16020351

>>16020268
>>16020305
This

If you're not prepared to take the risk then you're not prepared to create art. The great passionate musicians who go to top conservatoires aren't going because they know it'll lead to a 9-5, they're going for passion and love of the music

I say go for it but I guess it's easy when it's not me. What did you have to do to get in btw?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:11:42 2020 No.16020370 >>16020351 >>16020305 as long as that risk doesn't count as being experimental, then it's bad risk, right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:17:17 2020 No.16020416 >>16018526 A roguish thief crosses paths with a naive princess searching for ancient treasure.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:17:50 2020 No.16020419 >>16020268 Can you post some of your work? I want to see the level it takes to get into these programs.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:17:50 2020 No.16020421
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>>16020370
I would say any sort of art is an experimental risk. In this case the risk is mitigated by the prestige of the school, since if he isn't bullshitting the school he's talking about is UEA (pic rel).

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:19:11 2020 No.16020432 >>16018526 A short story about a woman recalling childhood memories as she travels to deliver the news of her brother's suicide to their mother.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:27:03 2020 No.16020485 >>16018526 picaresque novel

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:29:36 2020 No.16020501 >>16020150 Chill, bro. By that plot description, I honestly thought you were taking the piss on me. But if you insist it's legitimate effort, then cool

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:31:48 2020 No.16020517

>>16013464
Yes, and in the end I had much more to say than just dialogue -- mostly walls of inner thoughts, which you can't really express in a screenplay. So now instead of a shitty screenplay it's a shitty book.
The thing that sealed it for me was a quote I read along the lines of "Assume that the companies reading your screenplay hate actually reading." Screenplays are all about plot, so why would I work so hard at writing effective dialogue if they're hardly going to appreciate it, and then change it anyway if it sold?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:32:06 2020 No.16020520

>>16018526
A tangent filled story about a mentally ill homeless man who fights against the Church's charity. I'd like for a significant part two involve the psych ward based on my experience there, eventually resulting in the main character killing himself out of spite.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:40:09 2020 No.16020569 >>16020416 Already sounds more fun than most of the self-obsessed shit on /lit/.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:50:26 2020 No.16020647
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This may not be applicable to everything, but I find that writing a chapter in screenplay format then transcribing it into prose is great for circumventing the usual bad writing habits. Stuff like overly descriptive passages, filter words, etc. It requires very minimal editing beyond the initial transcription before I'm satisfied enough with it to move on to the next chapter

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:51:36 2020 No.16020655 >>16020647 Can you post a before and after example?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 14:54:46 2020 No.16020689 File: 1.93 MB, 500x281, yesyesyes.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16015033

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:00:13 2020 No.16020736 >>16017638 Up-based rescinded, fag.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:01:54 2020 No.16020752

>>16017383
Have you ever seen someone actually raise a baby(or had one yourself)? It's exhausting. It occupies your entire life. That baby becomes the parents' life. There is nothing else left. So your baby analogy is spot on. The answer to your question lies in how most parents don't put their babies in baskets to float down the river. (the answer is that the grandparents help)

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:04:55 2020 No.16020783 >>16020752 >It's exhausting. It occupies your entire life. Not if you have money to pay for part of its upbringing

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:12:53 2020 No.16020849 >>16020783 Same here, really. One can hire tons of different editors and ghost writers to do all the bits you don't want to do.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:16:43 2020 No.16020880

>>16015033
Seems overcomplicated. How to create suspense is already there in the name. Suspense comes from the latin, suspensus, which means hovering, suspended, or doubtful. So the key is just creating a situation whose outcome is in doubt and prolonging it ("hovering") as long as possible. Kafka's The Trial is an extreme example of this. Or consider the test they give to elite soldiers: running for an indeterminate distance and time.

All the other techniques like character switching, plot twists, disparity of power between protag and antag, increasing stakes and risk, etc. are all derived from the above principle. A lot of thrillers or horror novels can fail when they don't adequately set up true doubt. That's why they leap to risking the person's life and have people killed off to build suspense. Some try to subvert this, like Psycho killing off the main character in the middle of the movie, but as Kafka proves, you get better results looking at it from a psychological pov instead of physical.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:34:20 2020 No.16021007

>>16018526
Three childhood friends return to the countryside where they grew up. They realize that they have nothing in common with each other or the land that has changed. The main character laments the changes in himself and the distance he's placed between the present he doesn't recognize and the past he can never get back.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:36:19 2020 No.16021024 >>16020421 UEA isn't that prestigious in the UK.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:50:31 2020 No.16021152

>>16020849
not really. can you imagine ghostwritten sections in gravity's rainbow or lolita? although i guess you could theoretically run even further with the analogy and say that when you don't particularly care about the quality, you can hire a ghostwriter, but that in order to make something truly special, you have to both write it yourself and have the innate capacity to do so.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:56:01 2020 No.16021194 >tfw got big offer from chinese studio to write screenplay and i have to shit out 30more pages this weekend to deliver first draft.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 15:56:52 2020 No.16021210

I've planned my plot out reasonably in depth, so that I have a bullet points for each chapter.
The one thing I'm struggling with is the message I want to get across. There are two characters who are central to the plot who are in prison together, get released on the same day as part of a cost cutting initiative by the government. One of the ex prisoners kills his wifes lover when he finds her with him on the day of release and they are forced to go on the run. That's chapter one and two, at the end there is a betrayal where the guy who killed the lover leaves the other for dead after he is shot by a policeman.
I want to really drive home the parable of the duck and the snake where it offers to take it across the river, snake bites it, duck says "why did you bite me, now we'll both die" and the snake says "you knew I was a snake".
Finding the best way to convey this to the reader without making it overt and too obvious is difficult.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:03:22 2020 No.16021289

>>16021152
Ghostwriters could still do the bulk of work based on your instructions and then you could give it the final touches. As long it's not fucking Finnegans Wake, they are bound to reduce at least some of the workload.

Though sure, one would need to be still someone capable of doing it and having the ideas what to do.

>>16021210
>Finding the best way to convey this to the reader without making it overt and too obvious is difficult.
At least in this example it's rather obvious. If you expect the readers to be complete retards, some one liner when the guy leaves the other will do the job. Though the story seems a bit too long for such a simple message.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:05:51 2020 No.16021317 >>16021024 UEA as an institution might not be but the writing program is by far the best in the country, beating out Warwick and even Oxford

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:08:27 2020 No.16021341 >>16021317 Fairs. I was meaning more along the lines that the prestige of the uni may not mean much. I didn't mean to be that negative though. I went to Warwick. Didn't realize the programme was that well regarded. Interesting.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:21:05 2020 No.16021442 Do you guys have anything published? It'd be neat to know if there's any level of success behind all this blustery pompous conjecture about a pretty straightforward art.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:29:10 2020 No.16021520 >>16021442 I never give advice because I suck.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:31:59 2020 No.16021547 >>16021442 I make sure to preface any sort of criticism or advice with "muh opinion, bro" or some call to authority.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:32:45 2020 No.16021557

>>16021442
I know right? There are discords full of small children writing fan fiction, sub reddits and coomer 4chan threads with more writing output than /lit/. I refuse to believe that anyone that has published would be afraid of getting depersoned because of being associated with 4chan unless their writing was milquetoast shit to begin with or they were already wildly successful. Most of them would benefit from plugging shit in a thread one in awhile.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:34:47 2020 No.16021573 >>16021194 Don't forget to be nationalist as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:38:45 2020 No.16021598 >>16021289 It's pretty much purely for the character development. The book is going to be a very gritty adventure story where I want to show the world I've created to the reader. The characters are going to be the medium to show it.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:40:33 2020 No.16021614

>>16021210
Whoever the snake is supposed to be should be well meaning and actually likable. He should probably be the most likable character in the story, but at key points he always makes mistakes. Instead of at the end a mistake ends up costing both the duck and the snake, but the snake is full of regret. He doesn't know why he always makes mistakes and they end up going back to prison.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:40:44 2020 No.16021618
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>>16020305
Yes, true. I think that it's a risk I will take.

>>16020419
I won't post anything that I've written recently, but I would say that my writing now retains the voice of this passage while being technically more proficient. The story I submitted was, on the whole, substantially better. I still have a lot to learn, though.

>>16021024
>>16021341
As the other anon said the creative writing course is the figurehead subject of the uni, really. Just as Sports Science is for Loughborough, English is for Warwick, Maths for Cambridge etc. A big boon is how highly its regarded in industry - there are regular wine and dine events where you mingle with actual agents and publishers, which is really just as valuable as the workshopping.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:41:17 2020 No.16021625 >>16021442 I'm published, but I don't really offer any advice here, and just pop in occasionally to throw out a veiled insult.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:49:23 2020 No.16021710 I finished my book. It's online and purchasable as an ebook. Now I got to figure out how to get people to read the damn thing. Hopefully the answer isn't just 'ads'.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:54:01 2020 No.16021745 >>16021710 https://selfpublishingchecklist.com/

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:56:11 2020 No.16021761 Editing is not the hell I expected it to be. What sucks is that now I don't see a point in anything I have written.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:57:13 2020 No.16021772

>>16021710
If you have no community following you to speak of and little social media pull or friends then your best bet would have been using one of the many web novel sites that direct traffic to stories of different genres. Yes they have a lot of cringe content but they are the equivalent of youtube for writing in the west. Now that you have already self published on I assume amazon you just have to go around and shill it among the market you think would like it. So likely you are doomed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:58:33 2020 No.16021785 >>16021772 Yeah probably. It's not the first in a series and it's just a novelette, so I'm not too bummed if it doesn't get traction right now.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 16:58:34 2020 No.16021786

>>16021557
>Most of them would benefit from plugging shit in a thread one in awhile.
Threads like this die when they turn to outright plugging. It's best it stays at freely sharing excerpts and anonymous, or otherwise nonprofit stories, discussing the techniques and practices of writing, and related topics. You should take it for granted that no one here is successful and just sharing their personal opinions without any special merits or authority, and not care about the individuals behind the posts.

And don't be a little bitch and get all salty when someone posts something a little opinionated.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:02:07 2020 No.16021807 >>16021710 >just ads You fucking wish. Unless you have a huge budget and connections, it's less "just ads" and more "just become an e-celeb."

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:02:33 2020 No.16021811

>>16021786
Of course I'm not saying to just constantly self advertise in the thread, although honestly given the average level of exposure of any given author a little spreadsheet of self admitted /lit/ authors who may or may not post in the thread would probably benefit most of them.

I remember a month or two back there was a guy who namefagged and shilled his fantasy wizard stoner comedy and a 300 reply thread made fun of him and his shit book, but I'm sure he got a few readers out of it despite that. We'll see if this general stands the test of time or fades away like the other times it was tried.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:05:18 2020 No.16021833 >>16021811 If it's done in context of "X asks what we're writing and Y gives a short sum up and link of their work" I don't see what would be wrong with shilling either way. Why would anyone mind if it's not spammy?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:06:24 2020 No.16021841 >>16021833 Yeah, that would be fine. If the thread turns into just people shilling their book every thread obviously just report those posts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:06:35 2020 No.16021843 >>16021745 Could explain why my self published book has been out for 2 years and sold two copies (one of those was from somebody I knew). Ah well, was just a goof anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:09:10 2020 No.16021858 >>16021843 Now you know for the next one. The check-list is useful to realize what is necessary if the plan is to live off it.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:11:47 2020 No.16021884

>>16021858
Nah, I'm not doing a next one. I mean, one of the purposes of the first one was just to learn the whole self publishing thing and see if it's even worth it or makes sense, after looking at it, hell no. I'll just keep going to traditional route.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:12:33 2020 No.16021892

>>16021843
As nasty and unpalatable as it may seem the best way to get people to read your book is to be an e-celeb and work and develop communities related to who your readership may be. Yeah you can try to follow that check list and work with all these old guard readership funnels but then you are writing for a very specific audience. In the modern day just get eyeballs anyway you can, farm those social media numbers and get a community around you. If you are writing genre fiction or have some smut in your story there are certainly enough degens or addicts you can track down to read your work, the key is to go to those nasty web novel backwaters where they hang out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:15:53 2020 No.16021907 >>16021892 Would Tolkien do that?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:18:13 2020 No.16021921 >>16021907 Do you write like Tolkien?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:18:17 2020 No.16021922

>>16021907
Unless you are writing for wine aunts or woke school children then I really don't see a point in traditional publishing. If Tolkein was writing today I don't think any publisher would pick up his work, and I don't even think he would be popular. Of course this is somewhat a chicken and egg thing with genre fantasy using so many Tolekinisms but that aside I think he wouldn't be successful in the modern day.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:20:54 2020 No.16021937 >>16021922 Brainlet take, and a massive cope too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:22:46 2020 No.16021950 >>16021937 Have you met anyone in the young reading demographic who really liked Tolkien or even read him? I'm not talking about skimming through the book as required reading for social clout but teenager or college aged Tolkien fans.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:25:14 2020 No.16021968 >>16021950 Yep. I know of one. Knew his lore backwards and forwards. But that was just one guy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:27:17 2020 No.16021986 What's the longest amount of time you've spent writing the least amount of words? I've read about some idolized author's staring at a piece of paper for hours, for an entire day, to write one sentence.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:29:58 2020 No.16022015

>>16021950
how can you allude to the chicken and egg problem but go on to ask why younger fantasy fans are more familiar with tolkien-derivative works rather than tolkien himself? do you think maybe these theoretical young people might be more receptive to tolkien if he was as innovative today as he was in his era? it's literally impossible to separate tolkien from the context of the state of literature when he was publishing, because to do so is to arbitrarily separate him from the very thing that made him notable. it's a completely pointless exercise.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:30:44 2020 No.16022019 >>16018526 >Renaissance a 26 book golden age detective-type nineteen thirties-set series featuring a twelve year old girl

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:32:19 2020 No.16022034 >>16021618 If you have the money to throw at it and it's what you want to do, then do it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:32:42 2020 No.16022037 >>16021986 I probably spent like 2 years writing the query letter for my first novel, that was only like 250 words. They always say it's going to take twice as long to write your first query than it took to write the first book. It's fucking true.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:32:58 2020 No.16022041

>>16021950
I believe in objective merit in art. That includes Literature. Tolkien was an objectively good writer and deserves the acclaim he received.

Tolkien aside, although 4chan likes to make out that you can't be published unless you're female or a minority, that proves time and again not to be the case. I have a steady surety that objective value will continue being published amongst the schlock. Nobody has ever heard of or respects a self-published author, and their works will continue to dwindle in obscurity; yet there are works not yet written that will be traditionally published, receive rightful critical acclaim and be studied by academics 50 years from now.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:33:05 2020 No.16022042

I thought of an epic writing prompt inspired by this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOxMYz0Qf0

Epic Mission: Vlogging

So this is in the vein of Futurama or Tomorrowland but The U. S. is actually light years ahead of Australia. As such Australians live as Aboriginals when scaled back down. Anyways a lucky individual gets to make vlogs. Each vlogger is based on a regular person and their camera only records present day times of Tomorrowland/Futurama. Needless to say the locals don't approve however so long as it''s for dissidents they consent. The higher ups also want to promote their camera for the locals to see and use.

She would be awkward to the point of being rude like in Sara's Weeknight Meals when they were talking about the Mount Fuji method of cooking rice or Rick Steve's Europe Bulgaria when he nodded his head "No" and shook his head for "Yes." It could start with some sort of grading and she gets selected for the mission. They would show her the camera and she's living in The Outback and they give her a suit. The suit looks like it was made by erector set but it's very powerful. It's sort of like an exoskeleton and it has an on off switch like a safety on her shoulder. While getting into arguments she'll say her suit is off as a de-escalation technique and she has backup for when they do get into fights. In the backroom meetings they'll say she was following protocol and they shouldn't have started the fights in the first place.

As for Amanda Diaz's vlog she'll drink poison for the ginger shot and get tortured to death for the photo shoot. The person it's based on got sent to the sun so she'll take a near sun rocket flyby and she'll see the sun coming through the windows of her jet in the head up display while on the rocket ship.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:37:42 2020 No.16022068

Anyone have any advice for someone picking up a piece of writing long after you wrote it? I wrote 85% of a short story that touches on themes I really like and relate to but I didn't finish it. I've come back to it recently as I want to finish it but I don't know what to do and I end up just staring at the page. I don't feel the same connectedness I had with the characters or story. Lately I've been thinking I should re-write/edit it all and then, by the time I reach the ending, I should be in synch with the story a bit more but I'd be interested in hearing the consensus here.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:39:06 2020 No.16022078 >>16022068 The advice is to just write it again from memory.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:42:13 2020 No.16022097 >>16022078 Thank you, that sounds like what I was planning to do. I appreciate the help.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:44:52 2020 No.16022105

>>16022041
Maybe what you are saying made sense before the invention of television and the internet, but I think this a pretty stupid way to view things now. I've read authors who are relatively obscure compared to the quality of their work and because of the cultural fabric which is entirely a top down affair simply will never be relevant. If you measure success of art by its cultural effect then Pewdiepie Let's Plays, the Baby Shark music video and Fortnite will have more of an effect on the psyche and fabric of society than the last 20 winners of whatever book award you choose as literature diminishes as a relevant form of art. And don't even get me started on how scholasticism never ended and the academic class outside of brief moments always expressed whatever the elite wished them to.

Stupid japanese porn novels have had more readers and analysis than most of the shit that gets published in western countries. This is nearly a spiritual appeal to authority to an abstract platonic god of taste which is really just a amalgam of social attitudes pushed and assembled by the ruling class.

I view it very simply, if your work survives as a meme (Dawkins sense) survives into the future among a larger number of people you have beaten the rest of the authors and creatives at the act of memetic reproduction. So even if some anon here is a snobby autist and writes according to this mystical standard of the canon, and they become a best seller there will be barely anyone left reading fiction anyways by that point. Extrapolate how many people will hold or utilize ideas in your writings far into the future and realize the best method in the current day is to package it within mass consumed schlock to survive the immense flood of information and crumbling status of the written word.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 17:52:46 2020 No.16022148

>>16022041
You might be able to define "objective" value for art but the real problem with the concept is you'll never find a complete consesus about what that is. That's not to say everything is equal but you'll never be able to draw clear lines unless you're going by your own standards or clinging to arbitrary ones that someone else made for you, and it's hard to call those objective. Even if we go by your standards of "objective merit", the merit of the work would have little to do with the form in which it is published, and the other anon is right that in this world it really just doesn't matter anymore. The "masses" have an idea of artistic merit which is extremely different than yours, and they're the ones making market demands.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:00:14 2020 No.16022198

>>16022037
Holy crap, same here, though never saw the quote so just thought I was completely retarded. Pretty much read the entire QueryShark archive and hundreds of other queries for preparation and it was still such a pain to do.

Although at least there were fun moments too. For me the synopsis was the least rewarding thing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:22:55 2020 No.16022342 >>16022105 >>16022148 If you write to attract mass market philistines you only have yourselves to blame. Poetry has lasted 2000 years and the novel is in its infancy. Imagine preferring monetary success to genuinely deserved adulation

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:25:35 2020 No.16022356

>>16018526
A low-fantasy early-history-esque story. I have no idea how to summarize its appeal, but I’m sure it will come eventually as I keep writing and fleshing out its ideas.
But just in case, what do you guys think is the key to formulating a good pitch?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:26:45 2020 No.16022363
File: 110 KB, 540x524, 1 (69).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Has anyone got any good resources for learning to write dialogue better? I find it extremely easy to write detailed and vivid descriptions of things and events, but the more I write the more insecure I am that my dialogue is weak and just robots exchanging plot points in order to get to the next event.

Maybe this is just my autism in not being good at human interaction manifesting through my writing lol

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:28:34 2020 No.16022374 >Just wrote 600 words >reread it and didn't cringe once I did it, fellas

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:29:36 2020 No.16022387 >>16022363 You have to talk to people verbally and have social interactions. Maybe if you are a savant you can make a simulacrum of it by reading other people's dialogue but that is unlikely.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:34:17 2020 No.16022411

>>16022342
You were expressing a belief that things with objective value will survive and get recognition but this seems unlikely. You're biased because good things have survived. However those poems spent centuries only preserved and known by a handful of monks. Consider how many great works have probably been lost forever. Even now, the amount of people who care about the classics is dwindling again. A future where they're forgotten and records are even eventually lost is not at all impossible.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:34:51 2020 No.16022413 >>16022342 This. Nobody will be reading Harry Potter in 200 years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:34:52 2020 No.16022414 >>16022363 What kind of characters are you writing for? I feel like the setting and social class of the characters determine what expectations the readers would have for dialogue.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:35:53 2020 No.16022425 >>16022374 That’s super based, good job anon. We’re all gonna make it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:36:29 2020 No.16022427 >>16022413 Nobody will be reading in 200 years in their nerve injected VR pleasure simulations. I'm sure a few of those simulations will be Harry Potter themed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:43:03 2020 No.16022463 >>16022374 That could also mean that you didn't take any chances and your novel is boring.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:45:34 2020 No.16022483 How does one make a story "deeper"? Inserting philosophical quotes? Making the plot a bible allegory?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:49:51 2020 No.16022510

>>16022483
>Read philosophy and develop a world view
>Have story and characters embody that philosophy and world view so you can explore the idea via fiction.

If you don't do this your story becomes an arbitrary assembly of tropes from secondary or tertiary authors.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:52:22 2020 No.16022531

>>16022483
>>16022510
The biggest problem with the aspiring authors of /lit/ is that you look externally for everything instead of looking internally to create something good. You should ask and answer these questions yourselves. It's the difference between an author and an imposter. You don't want to be a writer, you want to pretend to be one.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:55:42 2020 No.16022554

>>16022413
Mainstream stuff from 200 years is still pretty popular, even well respected. Shit, Shakespeare is way older and was regarded even worse by the elitists back in the day. Now sure, HP doesn't have the originality and cleverness but for children's books, it's still very passable. Unless Rowling murders her reputation completely, it'll survive the next centuries just fine.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:56:32 2020 No.16022557

>>16022531
Shut up retard, if I didn't read philosophy when I did I would be a hyper depressed coomer with no direction. Now at least after getting a good grasp of some of it and intellectual history I actually have things to say in my work. I think it is impossible for an author to say anything unless they understand the intellectual environment they persist in and have some sort of take on the status of man in the world.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:56:51 2020 No.16022558

>>16022531
I very much agree with this. It's always "how do I create a quality work that people will read", rather than "how do I effectively express this original thought". I don't believe that everyone should write, and I think education for the masses was a mistake.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:58:14 2020 No.16022570 >>16022557 You're a pretentious idiot whose never going to get published. If you have to ask about "how do I make a story deeper" I'm here wondering if you've ever read a fucking book before.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 18:59:08 2020 No.16022578 >>16022570 I was responding to the poor sap asking that question and telling him to read philosophy so maybe he wouldn't be such a dullard.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:01:04 2020 No.16022590

>>16022557
Instead you sound like a depressed coomer who thinks he found a direction.
>Now at least after getting a good grasp of some of it and intellectual history I actually have things to say in my work.
Based on what? What can you really say if it relies so much on what you read about what others said?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:02:56 2020 No.16022605
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>tfw come to another point in my big literary work where I need to fill in specific plot details
>tfw going to pray and think about it some

Does anyone else take kind of a loose, organic approach to building a plot? Like, I know the general, broad outline of how I want this story to go. But I've never actually sat down and written out an extensive, detailed outline or synopsis. What I so often do is that when I come to the end of my specific section that I'm writing, and need to go further into a part I don't know about yet, I kind of sit back a little, maybe even a few days, and wait for things to come to me. I always wind up having really good luck doing this; the few times I've actually tightly plotted out a story were never as good as all the times I have just let a story come to me organically. If there are some bumpy connections between parts of the story I can always fix those when I edit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:03:29 2020 No.16022610 File: 183 KB, 771x804, aaf.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16022483 >Making the plot a bible allegory?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:03:48 2020 No.16022612

>>16022590
Because I spent the better part of a year and a half discussing and debating ideas in a public before developing my own. I guarantee whatever original donut steel life philosophy you think you have is derivative and you don't even know the author you are copying whose hand is puppeteering your psychology through your sphincter.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:08:37 2020 No.16022649 >>16022605 i only do this and it always works

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:10:04 2020 No.16022657 I think you all worry too much about forcing philosophy and deeper meaning unto your works instead of letting it fall into place organically. It all sounds very shallow. Reading Plato doesn't suddenly give you capacity for higher thought

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:11:35 2020 No.16022666 >>16022605 Congrats, you're a pantser.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:14:45 2020 No.16022690

>>16022612
>whatever original donut steel life philosophy you think you have
>implying I have one or think my approach to life is original or unique
Why?
>and you don't even know the author you are copying
It ain't copying if you steal from multiple sources. And I doubt muh psychology is as much affected by muh ideas. Feels like the environments and life circumstances had a bigger impact on shaping my thinking.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:16:42 2020 No.16022706

>>16022657
>>16022690

>Greek memes
Confirmed for illiterate person. Look here is the structure of ideas. You have primary philosophy authors, you have secondary analysis authors and you have authors of tertiary ideas which is where most fiction falls. If you do not have at least a basic grasp of which old dead guy wrote what when, then you don't know where the particular ideas you have sit in this relationship. You may erroneously believe these ideas to be original which is never true in almost any case.

So earlier in the thread someone mentions Tolkien derived works. Tolkien derived his work from his own mind sure, but the opinions and ideas he expressed in the work were based off his takes on the Bible and other works. So you have primary Bible -> Secondary Tolkien -> Derivative author.

And if you make a story based off this derivative author you are playing a game of idea telephone which would only ever interesting or original by virtue of assembling tropes in a funny way. But this isn't really a good way to write or present ideas. You should research where your biases or moral principles or metaphysical assumptions come from so you can write with full understanding of them and how your story and characters interact with them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:16:48 2020 No.16022709 >>16022690 Because he developed an original donut steel philosophy that he is very proud of and put a lot of effort into, and props up his ego by imagining that everyone else does the same thing but fails to be as original and deep as him.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:18:14 2020 No.16022720

>>16022605
I sorta did it at start of my writing but since I want a series, it felt too risky to leave up sooo much to my moods.

Though my approach to a rough outline is still pretty much the same. Instead of writing I just picture muh story scene by scene and note down key developments. If I get stuck, I let time sort it out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:18:30 2020 No.16022721 >>16022706 Why did you (You) me when nothing I said goes against your points stated here

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:20:52 2020 No.16022735 >>16022721 Because I felt you were implicitly assuming I was taking a pseud internet flexing stance with your post. I should have just made my original post to the anon asking how to make deep works include that analysis.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:21:08 2020 No.16022738
File: 37 KB, 317x451, Sucks to be you.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16022041
>Nobody has ever heard of or respects a self-published author
>traditionally published
>critical acclaim
>be studied by academics 50 years from now
Imagine needing the validation of these people!
You're deluded if you think they can give you an objective evaluation. Publishers only care about money, and critics and academics are professional pseuds.
Art is made for art's own sake, and it's a purely subjective thing. If you think otherwise you're a bugman who's dancing to the tune of the market and pseuds.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:25:53 2020 No.16022760

>>16022706
>You may erroneously believe these ideas to be original which is never true in almost any case.
Why would I though? Why would the originality of the idea even matter? I don't give a shit whether "sucking dick to get a burst of inspiration" is original or not, I don't even care whether it's true, it doesn't feel appealing to do.
>And if you make a story based off this derivative author
And why would you do that? There is a Tolkien and his stories already. Though Tolkien specifically is a fun example since he was probably one of the reasons I started writing. I don't even like most of his ideas or the themes he niggered from the bible, The Hobbit was just a very comfy book and I liked the idea of taking someone on a comfy adventure.
>You should research where your biases or moral principles or metaphysical assumptions come from
Now that's actually a good point. It's a shame you had to frame it with so many assumptions.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:26:15 2020 No.16022761

>>16022706
I agree with the premise that there are no original ideas but I don't necessarily agree with the idea that you need to research past authors to understand your views and their place. It's certainly a legitimate way of doing so, but it's not the only way. Past authors weren't the progenitors of their ideas either, they simply refined them and left records them in a form that others after them were influenced by and riffed off of. But there is no ultimate source for any ideas at their core, not an identifiable one, because the spread of concepts is more like a web than a linear passing-down through time. Because of this it seems to me there are almost infinite ways to explore and come to an understanding of what your ideas are and where they stand in the greater context.

I'm not either of the people you replied to by the way I just found the post interesting.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:27:14 2020 No.16022763

>>16022735
That was simply the general attitude I garnered from the thread in general, not any one specific post.
For what it's worth, I agree that you need to understand on some level why concepts and themes in literature exist, and where they stem from. However, again, the general feeling I got from the overall discussion is this need to shove in learned knowledge into your work just to let others know that you know it, which feels inauthentic.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:35:06 2020 No.16022803

>>16022760
Sorry anon, I don't mean to sperg at people but basically my world view is that people who don't run analysis on their ideas give up their agency and that civilization is a malicious force that fights against human agency via writers. So sometimes I sperg about it.

>>16022761
True enough anon, thought is fairly unlimited which is why I lament poor people who unwittingly embody the ideas of others.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:38:53 2020 No.16022828 >>16021745 >>16022198 >selfpublishingchecklist.com >queryshark.blogspot.com Saved. Thank you, anons.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:40:48 2020 No.16022842

>>16022803
>my world view is that people who don't run analysis on their ideas give up their agency
Kek, so we even agree on that half fully. Though I'd just put it under something as simple as "self-reflection".
>that civilization is a malicious force that fights against human agency via writers
Now that sounds a lot more controversial, though guess going deeper would be jumping out of the context and the purpose of the thread too much.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 19:59:03 2020 No.16022949 >>16018526 Weebshit

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:00:55 2020 No.16022956 >>16022605 >Does anyone else take kind of a loose, organic approach to building a plot? Yes, most all of the c list writers who regularly get published in lit mags do this. As long as you throw in whatever is fashionably righteous, you're good.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:17:40 2020 No.16023019
File: 595 KB, 375x211, rwF1yy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>"This isn't bad, or even not-good. It's well-written. It doesn't clunk. But it's also not compelling. It doesn't grab me. It doesn't make me eager to read on."
What's your worst fear, /wg/?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:17:46 2020 No.16023020 >>16022956 obsessed tbqh

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:18:57 2020 No.16023024 >>16023019 being caught in crowded building thats on fire while people are getting stuck in the doorways trying to get out

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:21:10 2020 No.16023031 >>16023024 i dunno i kinda like it

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:21:45 2020 No.16023034 >>16022531 >>16022558 Take both of these into account; of course there's nothing wrong with asking questions from other people, but you have to ask the right questions, which generally aren't broad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:28:10 2020 No.16023058 >>16023020 Nah, I get what he's saying. I mean, from the first paragraph of most any published story these days, you can practically see the the writer has no idea where this is going.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:32:53 2020 No.16023082

>>16023019
That one must hurt.

I got "I’m sorry to say that I’m not quite clicking with your writing here, and should step aside for someone with a clear vision of how to represent your work." which did feel worse than the average form rejection ... since it sounded like someone actually engaging with it.

Though I can't say I fear any sort of feedback. It's like dating, not everyone is the right person for you and vice versa.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:36:23 2020 No.16023103 >>16023082 >This piece doesn't really resonate with me and grinds to a halt near the middle. It's also overwritten in several places.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:38:13 2020 No.16023112 >>16023103 That actually sounds pretty helpful since you at least get a direction to check. I'd slap a cat for an agent telling me something as precise.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:39:45 2020 No.16023119 >>16023019 "It's well written but has no substance"

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:39:51 2020 No.16023121 >>16023112 Yes a direction. This was a 90k word novel.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:40:29 2020 No.16023127 >>16023121 Is that ALL you got after sending in a full?

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:42:45 2020 No.16023139

Think this can get published?
Part 1:

Seaside Way was a small street that ran along the south side of the Aqua Towers complex
a block below Ocean Avenue. Although it was a through road, there was never much traffic
other than residents going into or coming out of the underground parking garage. Uniformed
officers had blocked off the road at each end of the complex and Jen was glad there wouldn’t be
much pressure to open the street back up to traffic any time soon.
She parked behind the third squad car on the west end of the street, across from the Crime
Scene Detail van. When she got out and looked toward the site of the impact, she couldn’t see
anything on the other side of the screens that had been set up to conceal the body. Turning her
eyes up toward all the balconies, she wondered how many people had already looked down and
seen the victim. There were maybe a dozen people watching from up there now, scattered
among the hundred or so balconies spread across the two buildings of the complex.
“You ready for this?” Jen asked as they ducked under the yellow crime scene tape.
“I think so,” he said.
From the uncertainty in his voice Jen knew he hadn’t seen the body when he’d been here
earlier.
“You never know what you’re going to get with the victim of a fall,” she said.
“Sometimes it’s really bad, sometimes it looks like they just laid down for a nap.”
The officer in charge was a patrol sergeant who Jen knew in passing but had never
worked closely with. As he approached she couldn’t remember if his name was Adkins or
Askins so she went with the old standby. “Hey, Sarge.”
“Detective Tanaka. Good to see you.” He glared at Baxter.
“Theo,” he said, extending his hand.
The Sergeant looked down at it curiously before reaching out and shaking. “I know who
you are. Is there a narcotics angle here we should be aware of?”
“No,” Jen said. “He’s working homicide now.”
“Oh.”
Jen wondered what was behind the sergeant’s dull monotone response but knew this
wasn’t the time to explore it. “What do we know so far?”
“A young woman fell from the fourteenth floor.”
“Any ID on her yet?”
“Based on the balcony we suspect she fell from and giving her description to the security
guard we think her name is Marianne Evans. Haven’t confirmed anything yet.”
“Who’s here?”

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:43:53 2020 No.16023151

>>16023139
Part 2
“One crime scene analyst is down here and one is upstairs waiting for you. Coroner’s
still on the way but should be here soon. They said about fifteen minutes.”
“Thanks,” Jen said. “We’ll take a quick look down here and then head upstairs while we
wait for them.”
The sergeant nodded and headed back toward the perimeter.
“Shouldn’t we stay down here with the body?” Baxter asked.
“We can’t do anything with the body until the coroner’s finished. So we’ll make a quick
initial assessment down here, be sure the crime scene analyst is on top of everything on the
street, and then go up and see if we can figure out how she got down here. You ready?”
Baxter nodded and they walked around the screens.
Before she saw the fragments of skull and skin and hair, before she saw the impossible
angles of the neck and the arm and shoulder, even before she saw the darkening pool of blood
and viscera, Jen saw Marianne Evans’ feet. They were propped up on the sidewalk across the
street from the Aqua Towers, her knees lined up and bent so perfectly at the top edge of the curb
that it seemed impossible that they hadn’t been placed there deliberately with care and precision.
“Don’t get too close for now,” Jen said as she looked at Baxter to observe his response.
He frowned as he surveyed the body but she couldn’t tell what, if anything, was behind the
expression.
“Look at her legs,” he said. “Could someone have put her there like that?”
“What do you think?”
He studied the pattern of the blood around her head on the asphalt. At the edges of the
congealing pool were directional spatter stains that radiated from the remnants of her skull.
“Probably not? It looks like her head hit here, almost right where it is, and the rest of her
collapsed away from the building and her legs just wound up that way.”
“Could be. That’s what it looks like to me too but we won’t really know until we’ve got
all of the analysis from the coroner and the crime scene techs. Never assume anything and never
let what you see lead you to a conclusion before you have all the available evidence.”
Baxter nodded
“You’ll be surprised how often it turns out that things aren’t really what they look like at
all.”
Jen checked in with the crime scene analyst and they went inside. As they passed the
huddle of uniforms at the concierge desk and crossed the lobby, Jen spotted a security camera
above the elevators and made a note to be sure someone was already collecting the recordings.
She hoped it wasn’t the only one.
“How’d they figure out which condo she came from?” Baxter asked.
“They looked up,” Jen said.
“There must have been more to it than that.”
“Think about it for a minute.”

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:46:52 2020 No.16023173 How do you stop using "For example," when writing non-fiction?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 20:48:16 2020 No.16023184 >>16023173 By using exempli gratia instead.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 21:00:03 2020 No.16023253

>>16023019
"I haven't read the whole thing so take this as you will, is there like... an actual story in here anywhere? Because I don't want to sound rude but... this feels like reading the lore codex of a strategy rpg more than a novel. It's incredibly dry exposition and not a whole lot else."
I haven't gotten any real critique after I flipped the narration around following this, but things are kinda looking bright since then.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 21:01:11 2020 No.16023261

>>16023139
Muh super personal take, also it's 3am. Mostly focusing on the negatives, so it'll might sound a lot harsher than it's meant to be.

I got annoyed by the opening with a fucking road instead of giving me a character or at least a reason to care about the shit, specially if the description didn't have any noteworthy aspects or some eye-catching phrases.

Then you lost me at "When she got out and looked toward the site of the impact, she couldn’t see
anything on the other side of the screens that had been set up to conceal the body."
Saying that she couldn't see nothing is clumsy and boring. If I were reading this normally, I'd zone the fuck out already, which is a shame because the next sentence is actually good.
>There were maybe a dozen people watching from up there now, scattered
among the hundred or so balconies spread across the two buildings of the complex.
Seems like another wasted opportunity though. You could wrap this information in a more interesting way if you have to give it. Let the personality of the character flow into the shit.
Dialogue was decent enough until
>knew in passing but had never worked closely with
Redundancies like that tilt me the wrong way yo. What's the point telling the reader they never worked closely given the first part and her not remembering his name (a much smarter way to deliver the information)

Part 2 didn't have anything to make me sperg out, but I can't say it had anything to make me actually care either. There could be more conflict or more touches of Jen's personality.
>Jen said as she looked at Baxter to observe his response.
Is the closest it got for me, hinting that she is sensitive enuff about the feels of her co-workers.

Though that all said, I've seen much, much worse works getting published and it's not bad by any stretch of the word. For me, it's just not "yeah, I want to read on - good" yet.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 21:41:18 2020 No.16023484 >>16023261 Thanks.

Anonymous Sat Aug 1 22:39:36 2020 No.16023820
File: 3.11 MB, 2980x1985, a01_jd_25dec_monks2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16022649
>>16022666
>>16022720
>>16022956
I guess the thing is, I have always legitimately done some of my best thinking when I have to think on my feet. Sometimes when I'm in a jam and need to force myself to find a way out in a story, that's when I do some of my very best writing. So the more spontaneous way of writing has repeatedly yielded good, even brilliant results for me, and that's why I keep it up.

Maybe I also incline towards this style because I am a poet, in addition to a prose writer. Writing short poems inclines you towards this kind of spontaneity because often a poem is the locus of a single idea, and that idea can come to you at the most random of times.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 1 22:47:58 2020 No.16023879 >>16015554 Was gonna be published in Juice Magazine until the dude I wrote about came out as a shoot nazi.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:08:02 2020 No.16024262 >>16023879 Who did you write about?

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:10:30 2020 No.16024272 File: 129 KB, 2241x708, early type up.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Currently writing a book. Just started and I am going to redo this part over. Just needed honest criticism on writing style and flow. Flaming welcome.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:19:09 2020 No.16024329 >>16020129 People overcoming disabilities while I have no disadvantages whatsoever is the issue, anon.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:34:10 2020 No.16024413

>>16023820
Some people (like actual writers) can pull it off. Most can't.

Most read like:

>Uh...there was this guy and he went to the store and uh...nothing really happened, but there was this other guy and he, ok, he liked that store, he went there all the time, and then uh....they said hi, 'cause like they know eachother, and there's totally a story behind that and like a TON of history, but i'm not going there, ok? So then they're like hey, man you going to the dinner party and he's like Oh, sarah won't like that.
>So sarah, she used to be a devote catholic, but sarah, she almost died from an overdose. and now she isnt.
>so Sarah is at the dinner party and uh...neither of the guys are there, because honestly I didn't have anything for those two but i'm too lazy to rewrite and just focus on this boring bitch. So sarah she's at this party and they're all like "hey sarah, you look so happy now and she's all like, "yeah I totally am!" and everyone's like, man she's happy, fuckballs that's crazy man. So then she leaves the dinner party, but she's totally not really happy, and that's totally original by the way, I HAVEN'T been just unconsciously channeling Woolf's masterpiece this whole time, I'm actually fooling myself into believing that this is original, even though I'm not going anywhere.
>So uh...there's two guy, at the store...and....no, not those two guys, it's another store. I mean, i mean, yeah it's another store, but it's two other guys too. Or.........is it?
>word limit reached, time to submit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:35:25 2020 No.16024418 >>16024272 god I fucking hate you pretentious faggots on /lit/

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:39:48 2020 No.16024443 >>16024418 Please enlighten me. In order to think others are pretentious you must know better yourself. I have yet to find the opinions or axioms that prove otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:45:23 2020 No.16024465 >>16015724 If you've gone this far, why stop now?

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 00:48:01 2020 No.16024478

My stupid flash fiction.

>It's a strange thing to hear a voice inside your head. Though he had had the neural implant for nearly a year, he had never quite gotten used to hearing sound without feeling any vibration or hearing the usual echo in his bare studio apartment. He groaned in frustration when he heard Marie's voice. "Why do you want to get rid of me?"

>He muttered under his breath, "we broke up weeks ago. Why can't I scrub your data?" But that was the problem with these new neural implants. Data tends to leak from silicon to gray matter and the brain doesn't store things neatly at well-defined memory addresses. He had removed her data from the implant's storage memory, but clearly something of her had remained. Flashing the implant hadn't worked. Distracting himself with drink had only left him with a throbbing headache and given Marie's voice a more judgmental tone.

>"Come on, you don't really want to start removing bits of memory. We had some good times." Edgar sighed and rubbed his temple. She wasn't wrong, even if she was just a disembodied voice.

>"I suppose not. But my other memories are less distracting. They don't talk to me."

>"Well, those were before you had perfect, machine-like recall." He could hear the smile in her voice. "Or maybe I'm just more interesting."

>Maybe that was it. Implant or no, this was all in his mind. Edgar sat back, closed his eyes, and began to focus on the feeling of breathing. Deep and slow. Her voice intruded again, but it was fainter this time and trailing off. "I'll still be here..."

>Edgar continued his meditation. There was no sense in running from your own memories. He knew how to make peace with his ghosts, silicon or otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 01:15:46 2020 No.16024592 File: 25 KB, 680x680, fc2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >come up with new idea >eh, I dont know if I'm ready for something of that scope, shelve it for later >never actually commit to writing anything as a result l-lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 01:41:19 2020 No.16024731 >>16024329 You can always blind yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 01:43:48 2020 No.16024744 >>16023019 How underwhelming fearlessness is, I guess.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 01:46:28 2020 No.16024755 >>16024731 That doesn't really do anything except save me money on the paper bags I put over your mom's head when I bang her.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 01:47:27 2020 No.16024762 >>16024262 Duane Peters

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 01:48:47 2020 No.16024769 >>16024755 looool

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 01:48:49 2020 No.16024770 >>16024755 >>16024329 You already have a disadvantage. You're retarded.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 02:16:02 2020 No.16024915 >that feeling when you post drivel for feedback and get asked for more merely because they enjoyed reading it So there are others out there with shit taste like me

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 02:21:58 2020 No.16024952

>>16013596
You overestimate how important that is desu, I also assume you are not very much familiar with contemporary literature. Sure, treating woke topics is very profitable right now, and many big literary prizes (like the booker) seem to be more interested in that, but there is still a space for literary fiction. But if you are serious about publishing, you have to find those spaces and get familiarized with them. It always is like that, there is this very profitable topic in the market most writers will bend towards, in Mexico for example it happens with the Narco novel, most of them are shit, but even here there is a space for literary fiction of a better quality.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 02:23:40 2020 No.16024961 >>16024952 >literary fiction Many books that have woke topics are probably literary fiction too but I think you know what I mean.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 03:36:22 2020 No.16025298

>>16022363
If one thing's for sure, you don't write good dialogue with a guide. I'm afraid there's no other real choice but to talk to real people, or at the very least listen to people. If that's impossible, then read books that you think have good dialogue and watch a lot of movies.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 03:39:07 2020 No.16025306

>>16022531
>The biggest problem with the aspiring authors of /lit/ is that you look externally for everything instead of looking internally to create something good. You should ask and answer these questions yourselves.

No less huge a problem is attempting to answer questions that have already been answered, and coming up with wavering, awkward reiterations of ideas great minds have thought already thousands of years before. No matter what, you have to start with the Greeks

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 03:46:06 2020 No.16025331
File: 35 KB, 400x304, erryday.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16023019
I saw one comment online about my work like, "it was well written, I guess, but I just found no satisfaction in it. I probably won't be reading any more."
oof. I couldn't think any response to that even in my head.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 03:53:10 2020 No.16025346 >>16023019 >What's your worst fear, /wg/? Experiencing intimacy with another human being.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 03:58:49 2020 No.16025364

>>16023019
The worst thing I can think of is making a good novel (haha, yeah right) and then never being able to make another one. Like Ralph Ellison spent like 40 years unable to write another book. Juneteenth had what, 2000 pages of material from which the published version was edited?
Imagine that. Half a century of trying to make another book and not being able to do it. Dying a one-hit wonder is worse than dying a hack or in complete obscurity.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:02:52 2020 No.16025381 So what do you guys think I should do once I finish my (traditionally) unpublishable manuscript? besides burn it, of course

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:04:50 2020 No.16025390 >>16025381 Editing and rewriting would probably be a good first series of steps.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:05:44 2020 No.16025392 >>16025390 I consider it finished only once it’s edited.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:06:42 2020 No.16025400 >>16025392 Hide it, then rewrite it from memory.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:07:09 2020 No.16025401 >>16025392 Maybe decide whether or not you actually want to try to publish after all. If you do, draft query letters and start sending them out. If you don't, maybe start working on something else.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:07:33 2020 No.16025404 >>16025381 Post it here, obviously. Since it's not going anywhere

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:08:31 2020 No.16025407 >>16025401 Trust me, it’s unpublishable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:09:43 2020 No.16025411 >>16025404 Oh, this. Totally this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:10:03 2020 No.16025414 >>16024478 I hate myself for liking it.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:19:18 2020 No.16025440
File: 103 KB, 770x536, 20200512majora_s_moon_by_vincentbisschopd7m35oh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16025364
Similarly, I'd really like to develop a good work ethic with writing. I want to be capable of being shameless as shit, cranking out novel after novel. A honed craft

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:36:24 2020 No.16025494

>>16025364
Imagine being more than capable of writing more books, but the publisher rejects all of them for arbitrary reasons, like not representing transgender penguins, and your contract prohibits you from offering your second novel to another publisher. Then the audience will declare you a one-hit wonder, despite the pile of manuscripts in your garage. Oh the horror

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:37:36 2020 No.16025498 >>16024478 PKD/10

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 04:59:14 2020 No.16025557 >>16023019 >"I don't get it."

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 05:43:38 2020 No.16025718 >>16025306 Or you could just write the thing, then start with the Greeks and then see where the you v2 stands on it.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 06:20:06 2020 No.16025869

>>16025306
>No less huge a problem is attempting to answer questions that have already been answered, and coming up with wavering, awkward reiterations of ideas great minds have thought already thousands of years before.
This can just as easily apply to someone who IS well read and informed.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 06:29:48 2020 No.16025896

>>16021614
Interesting.
I was planning the end as him surviving, finding the body of the guy who betrayed him (also killed by police) then making his way from the area they've been surviving in, only to see police blocking the exit and being forced to turn back, so he has to stay.
Your idea may be better, where he awakes in prison and sees the guy who betrayed him dead in a pile of bodies on the floor.
I'm trying to make it ambiguous on why they were even in prison in the first place. The main character was actually innocent. The 'snake' said he was.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 06:53:06 2020 No.16026003 What is the best place to publish if I have no intention of making money from my work? Personal website?

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 06:54:53 2020 No.16026011 >>16026003 Yes or like a blog or something. I'm thinking about making a wordpress or a blogspot so I can post my shit, whether it be my stories or random thoughts.

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 11:33:01 2020 No.16027352 >>16025869 But the likelihood of repeating cliches is vastly lower if you're well-read. At least your ideas then aren't something every entry-level reader will have stumbled upon before

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 11:35:15 2020 No.16027366

>>16026003
I started out with a wordpress blog and had like whopping 2 visitors per month. It wasn't working out. If you don't have a big circle of friends, I'd recommend one of those fiction sharing platforms out there. There are a lot to choose from these days, of different genres. It's better to be ignored because of too much traffic than because of no traffic

>>	Anonymous Sun Aug 2 12:50:02 2020 No.16027868 I have zero writing experience (without counting the obvious school projects). Are you supposed to break the whole thing into parts (characters, locations, relationships, stories) then put it all together or some pople 'just' write?

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 12:54:11 2020 No.16027888

>>16027868
Everyone is an individual. You have to discover your own process. To do this you have to just write. Write down who the people are, what's you want to do, write scenes that are in your mind, just write. Cobble it together however you feel comfortable with, just so long as you write it. Revision and editing and complete rewriting comes later.

Anonymous Sun Aug 2 14:50:14 2020 No.16028724

>>16027868
Yeah, you need to come up with your own methods. Then you hone it by requesting (more specific) advice or you read one of the zillions books about writing. But write first, then you have something to shape, some method to refine. Otherwise it's just wasted time.

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