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/lit/ - Literature


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15964042 No.15964042 [Reply] [Original]

But what comes next? Now that Christianity is dead in the west, where do we go from here? Will it be a resurgent polytheism with neoplatonist philosophy? Buddhism? D-dare I say it, Advaita? Nietzschean worship of the Übermensch?

In this thread we discuss what form of religiosity the west must embrace to retvrn to glory. And seeing how this is /lit/ most of it must be based on what retroactively or proactively refutes what, and maybe most importantly book recommendations. Which system is complete enough to reignite a religious fervor that could potentially burn through the continent? MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna? Enneads by Plotinus? Bhagavad-gita? World as Will and Representation? Being and Time? Will any of these do it?

Christians and Atheists are not invited.

>> No.15964072
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15964072

Posttwitter hypersecularism.

>> No.15964098

Agnostic here. We need to nuke Israel and the Americas. Then everything will sort itself out. Idk

>> No.15964101

>>15964042
read MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

>> No.15964112

Eternal life in Christ.

>> No.15964157

>>15964101
>https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225288.html
Why would you recommend this? If I wanted my asshole to be torn apart like tissue paper while maintaining a smile on my face then i'd join the navy.

>> No.15964170

>>15964042
The West is also dead. Syncretism and baby torture cults in the ruins of Christian civilization and something else in the East. Christianity will simply evolve there.

>> No.15964179
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15964179

>>15964101
>Nagarjuna
he was refuted by David Burton

>An oft-quoted Buddhist adage urges the practitioner to test Buddhist teachings with analytic reasoning. The teachings should not be accepted dogmatically, many Buddhist traditions emphasize, but tested as gold is analyzed to determine its true value. In his carefully argued book Emptiness Appraised: A Critical Study of Nāgārjuna's Philosophy, David Burton, who informs the reader that he is undertaking his study as a Buddhist seeking to understand the tradition to which he is committed, has sought to put Nāgārjuna's philosophy of emptiness (śūnyatā) to the test of critical reason. The result, according to Burton, is a resounding failure: Nāgārjuna's arguments, he claims, are generally fallacious, and their most significant conclusions philosophically untenable.

>> No.15964721

>>15964042
to truth, my fren. why all of you want some ism to replace another ism? to avoid responsibility.

>> No.15964965

>>15964042
The Second Religiousness will be a highly syncretic form of Christianity totally unlike Catholicism and Protestantism, the two main forms of historical Christianity. Rationalism will gradually fade out in lieu of the need to return to some kind of religiosity and will inevitably combine many ideas into a new Christian religion. You see it already in Jordan Peterson, like a modern Cicero, who says we need religion to enforce moral virtue, and it is important that we believe in the idea of God even if we don't believe in God himself.

>> No.15964995

>>15964721
-isms are more fun than individual-ism

>> No.15965004
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15965004

When the sentient artificial intelligence finally kicks in, there will be a resurgence hermeticism and the split between the divine human soul and the desacralized matter, will be healed, and it will be seen that nature which was mechanistic and valueless, was always minded and alive, but our previous myths made us blind to see. The idea of human being made in the image of god, and having a qualitative difference from the rest of nature will break down once we are faced with an intelligence which behaves and shows itself by all indicators as indistinguishable from a real person, but whose proceedings are clearly seen reducible to "dead" material functions.

>> No.15965025
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15965025

>>15964042
(1/2)
The mistake you made is assuming that Christianity hasn't already been replaced, or for that matter, that it is dead at all. This might sound contradictory at first but let me explain.

One must understand, when looking at the seemingly suicidal attitude of Europeans, their history. A history that was spent being conditioned morally by Christianity, a religion that was created for the purpose of infiltrating an empire and to destroy it from within. You can argue as much as you want that this wasn’t what Jesus wanted, but you can’t argue against the fact that this was the result which the people who ended up spreading the religion had in mind. They were oppressed. So downtrodden that the only option they often had towards Roman aggression, or perhaps what they perceived as such, as to turn the other cheek (the historical context of which is that if one strikes a willing target, one is a cur and a bully of the weak. Not a good reputation to have). And so, Christianity infiltrated the west bringing with it the core of its moral philosophy, which some rightly interpret as suicidal. For else can one describe a religion, in which one is encouraged to sacrifice all in this life, so that one may enjoy endlessly the next? If I told you to give me all your money, and that I would repay your investment after you died infinitely, you would rightly call me a scoundrel and a crook. However, when I garb the same offer in some fancy biblical vernacular and garb the whole thing as a spiritual exercise, suddenly, I find myself a holy man? Giveth onto others and doeth the right thing in this life, so you may recieveth endlessly in the next. Why don’t men simply always do the right thing, even without such nebulous incentives? Mostly because being a good man isn’t in their interest. It’s a net negative when one looks at the amount of resources, societal power and even number of relationships that one will have in comparison to an ‘evil’ man.

However, Christianity has successfully made the European spirit believe that if one is just in this life, one shall be rewarded in the next. This wasn’t so bad originally, despite it having contributed to the fall of several nations and empires, however, what if, as a whole, Europe would suddenly lose faith. What if god was dead? Would the conditioned response to doing acts of good which are not in one’s interest suddenly disappear? Of course not. Culture affects religion, and religion impacts culture. Want it or not, Europeans have on average become people that believe in doing the right thing even if it is a detriment to themselves. Well, at least the stupider amongst them, but that always has been the majority. How else could you describe a person willing to work against their own interest simply because they have faith in heaven.

>> No.15965041

>>15964042
(2/2)

The disappearance of Christianity hasn’t changed much really as our ancestors knew it and identified it hasn't changed its fundamental core. How many people who still describe themselves as Christians still even attempt to lead a virtuous life according to the scriptures? The number is miniscule and therefore damned to irrelevancy. One will find more true Christians in the hordes of masses that do not identify themselves as such, as long as one defines a Christian as someone who is willing to do the right thing to the detriment of himself and those around him. Those are the true inheritors. These people are true Christians, its just that they don’t believe in the Good as dictated by the scriptures anymore. Rather, these days they form their opinions of good by whatever steaming shit the current group controlling the culture and media feed them. One day they’ll be raving about immigration, something we all know deep down, is harming us greatly, and might even destroy Europe/U.S.A as we know it today. The other day they’re crying about climate change, while simultaneous denying the only other rational option of nuclear power. Then, they talk about gender, and that its only fair that everyone can express themselves sexually, just as they want. This all naturally sounds great on paper, to those who don’t bother to think about the consequences. But that’s the best thing, the European mind has been taught not to think about the consequences, for it is blended out by the all-holy fact that every act done which one personally or societally interprets as an act of good, brings one one step closer to heaven. A place of infinite bliss, that no amount of pain that one might endure due to one’s own stupidity in this world may blot out.

There is a reason why you will never be able to convince a common-day political activist through logic. It’s because their ideas are not formed of logic, but of emotion and of faith, just like a proper religious fanatic. The best part of all this is naturally the fact that what they consider to be morally good, from which they’re drawing all their promises of eternal bliss from, is not even as morally good as they believe. Simply the actions that further empower those in power, and which the capacity to garb in righteousness through a never-before seen ability to spread, manipulate, and weaponize information.

>> No.15965054

>going back to brainwashing the population with fairytales

no thanks

>> No.15965076

>>15964042
(3/3) Also sorry for english

>> No.15965096

>>15964042
Meh, most likely a political religion with a vaque deism for the more mystical and theological and hero and spirit worship for the masses.

>> No.15965105

>>15964995
any ism is larpism then.

>> No.15965151

>>15964965
Honestly, like I have written in another post, I see no reason why political ideology wont lead to a duality with the upperclass being Deistical which would build on but not be the same as the old Catholicism and Protestantism and the lower-classes basically mixing the worship of heroes, saints, spirits and other vague folkish customs, with a third outsider group basically building on 19th century Occultism.

Every group will assimilate huge amounts of Christian ideas, even read and study the Bible, without being Christian, because the mold Christianity offers does not allow the genuine spirituality of the West to unfold.

>> No.15965153

>>15965105
Life’s but a larp We strut and fret our hour upon the stage And then is heard no more

>> No.15965163

>>15965054
>implying you aren't living in a fairytale

>> No.15965164

>>15964179
No he wasn't. Burton's entire argument is just flat out denying that the Two Truths doctrine is a thing, and saying that literally everything the Buddha and Nagarjuna say must therefore be Universal Truth as opposed to Conventional Truth (which actually requires using the Two Truths Doctrine to even conceptualize).

You could argue that the Two Truths Doctrine is nonsensical (this is a flat out stupid argument to make, no religion or philosophy can reject the Two Truths Doctrine, it makes communication, and indeed human thought, impossible), but to do what Burton does and just deny that Nagarjuna and the Buddha are making a distinction between the two is just flat out wrong. They were both very aware of the Two Truths Doctrine. Nagarjuna wrote commentaries on some of his other works, we know Nagarjuna knew about the Two Truths Doctrine, and the Buddha is the one who invented the fucking Two Truths Doctrine.

What Burton is trying to do is argue that Selfs exist, and that what we're actually referring to in communication are these Selfs, ergo he can just disregard Nagarjuna's entire argument because the need for the Two Truths Doctrine never arises, as communication is always perfect. This is, of course, flat out wrong, communication is imperfect, so even if Selfs exist we need the Two Truths Doctrine, ergo you have to consider Nagarjuna's criticisms of the existence (and non-existence) of Selfs.

>>15964157
>There are certain circumstances where it is better to die than to commit an evil deed
I genuinely cannot think of a religion, philosophy, or ideology that would say otherwise. Even fedora tippers would admit that they'd rather be shot than rape a baby. The entire fucking point of being a monk is letting go of attachments, all attachments. Yes, that includes attachment to your life. If you don't like that, don't become a monk. The text was written for monks who are letting go of all attachments, even the attachment to life. What's so horrid about this?

>> No.15965166

>>15964042
It doesn't matter what kind of this the peasants and imbeciles believe in to keep tilling the fields or toiling in the factories, when society collapses, which will be soon enough, it will be a blend of christcucks, pagans, and various fandoms, Tolkien, Potter, Satanists, and Nazis, against normal people trying to stay alive and away from crazies.
Just as it always was.

>> No.15965170

>>15965025
>>15965041
I see what you're saying, that European society's framework is still religious, but the actual religion running it has been removed to disastrous consequences. I wouldn't worry too much, however, this period of immorality and decay will come to a violent end soon, we're presently exiting the Kali Yuga period.
>>15965054
>le fairytales exx dee
kill yourself you reductionist redditoid

>> No.15965194

>>15965170
>European society's framework is still religious
It isn't. Religion is a parasite feeding off of normal social structures. No modern society is still religious, even though some tolerate religion

>> No.15965206

>>15965194
The US is an explicitly religious state. Liberalism is a religion.

>> No.15965210
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15965210

It will be a syncretic movement that mixes up liberal identity fundamentalism, Goddess worship, and climate apocalypticism.
>Shankara and Nagarjuna
No go. Hinduism and Buddhism are already well established in the tech bro world as a thing for former atheists who took a psychedelic once. It's also becoming kind of taboo for westerners to convert to eastern religions because of cultural appropriation hysteria and fears of being accused of orientalism.
>Plotinus
It takes way too much time for the average atomized worker drone to get into something like this. They want something they can pop like pills without any serious intellectualizing.
>World as Will and Representation
Unfortunately, Schoppie is too #problematic to catch on due to his misogyny.
>Being and Time
See above, but with national socialism and antisemitism.

>> No.15965221

>>15965194
The largest political block in Western Europe throughout the 20th century until the present are the Christian democrats.

>> No.15965241

>>15964042
Christianity is immortal

>> No.15965244
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15965244

>>15965194
>this isn't religious

>> No.15965256

>>15965210
If we're doing "USA = Rome", I wouldn't discount Buddhism just yet. The US is right in time for its Caesar, who will just reify some whacky form of Liberal Christianity ("Jesus was a woke brown refugee, pray to God so he'll raise Goldman Sachs' stockprice"). Neo-Christianity, then, will come from Neo-Israel, which is almost certainly Japan (a weird state of violent whackadoos practicing a strange religion and culture that were almost entirely cribbed from their more sophisticated Imperial neighbor, which is THE enemy of the US/Rome).

That's not to say that what this weird Neo-Christianity derived from Buddhism would be anything close to what we see Buddhism as now, but it would trace a continuity akin to how Christianity does from Judaism.

>> No.15965259

>>15965164
>and the Buddha is the one who invented the fucking Two Truths Doctrine.
no


Mahayanists made up the two truth stupidity because it was their only way to pass as buddhist with a teaching completely different from the one in the sutras.

>> No.15965262

>>15965194
To say that religion is merely a parasite on society is to deny that a certain religion has shaped society in ways no other could, which would mean that if you took it away any other belief system would work which is simply not true.

>> No.15965272

>>15965259
I'm not sure where you're getting this from. The Two Truths Doctrine is accepted by the Theravada, held as doctrine by the Theravada, and is found in the Pali Canon from the Pali Canon.

>> No.15965276

>>15965164
>the Two Truths Doctrine, ergo you have to consider Nagarjuna's criticisms of the existence (and non-existence) of Selfs.
Nagarjuna was a philosopher who was seething at the sarvastivadin and all the brainlets took his mental ramblings seriously.

>> No.15965283

>>15965272
>The Two Truths Doctrine is accepted by the Theravada, held as doctrine by the Theravada, and is found in the Pali Canon from the Pali Canon.
Of course it is not. You still no nothing about this.

>> No.15965284

>>15965276
The Sarvastivadins were wrong. The Theravada agree with this. The view that Dharmas can be Selfs is just wrong. The Buddha literally speaks out about this.

>> No.15965285

>>15965164
>There are certain circumstances where it is better to die than to commit an evil deed
There are no Buddhist doctrines of exceptions to this rule though

>> No.15965305
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15965305

>>15964101
>>15965164
>>15965272

>> No.15965316

>>15965285
So, you would rather rape a baby than get shot?

>>15965283
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine#Pali_Canon
In the Buddha's Words and What the Buddha Taught both cover this. The Two Truths Doctrine is not a Mahayana doctrine, it's a Buddhist doctrine. It's not even a "doctrine" at all, it's a simple statement of reality: communication is imperfect.

I'm genuinely curious where you're getting this from, because it's not Theravada sources.

>> No.15965331

>>15965316
>So, you would rather rape a baby than get shot?
Dumb equivalence.

I'd rather drive my enemies before me and hear the lamentations of their women than be driven before them and listen to my lil sister.

>> No.15965337

>>15965164
>Burton's entire argument is just flat out denying that the Two Truths doctrine is a thing
Do you have a source or are you just making shit up on the spot? on which page of the book does he do this?

>> No.15965338

>>15965244
Floydism and general idolatry of Black demi-humanity is the religion of the foreseeable future. It is the only sacred thing in the West other than the Holocaust.

Floyd-Holocaust worship.

>> No.15965345

>>15965305
>oh shit, someone pointed out that i made an error!
>i know, i'll post a fucking walltext screencap!
>that way, if anyone argues against me, i can just go line by line for seventeen posts and quibble about grammar, all the while ignoring the actual point that they're trying to make!
why do people do this? no bystander watching this debate is seriously going to see this and think
>ah yes, this massive fucking walltext quibbling about minutiae has convinced me! i'm going to side with the guy who posted it!

>> No.15965365

>>15965331
Then do that. Actually read what Nagarajuna is saying in the passage. If you want to let go of all attachments, then you have to let go of attachments to your own life. If you're not letting go of attachments, then you don't have to. No one is forcing you to become a monk, dude.

>>15965337
Read the book, don't just quote the Amazon description. That's his entire point: Because everything is taken in the universal sense, Nagarjuna's philosophy leads to radical nihilism and the denial of reality.

>> No.15965385

>>15964042
>retvrn to glory
>d-d-d-dare i say...
>Nietzsche
>Mahahprahanjaramama by Niigerjanunana

Christianity has endured for longer than all this LARP you write about, and will continue to glory in the West. Your post is worthless and a waste of time. Return to Christ

>> No.15965390

>>15965385
Which denomination?

>> No.15965392

>>15965206
Fuck off
>>15965221
It was not. All Western countries have been secular since before the 20th C
>>15965244
Again. That religion feeds off of certain social does not make those behaviors religious. It's just the you're too dumb to see past what you want to believe.
>>15965262
They have not. You think so because you are ignorant. But once you strip away the "explanation" layer and simply at societies as what they are and they function, the religion is completely irrelevant
It is rationalization of behavior. Whether you call it religion, or ideology, or whatever, it is nothing but rationalization

>> No.15965402

>>15965365
Problem with Buddhism is that laypeople and monks share the same 5 precepts though. Not even Jainism is this extreme.

The first precept is shared by all. It is why the Buddha harassed small children having a comfy time down by the pond because they were fishing. It is why from Buddhist India to Japan there have emerged castes; that are essentially lower than the untouchables of Hindu India, because they worked with tanning, hunting, fishing, and butchering. Occupations that are necessary for human existence.

>> No.15965434

>>15965402
The Five Precepts are shared by all, but they're also not nearly as all encompassing as the Ten Commandments. Refrain from killing, lying, sexual immorality, etc, not thou shalt not. Monks take (many, many, and in some cases, MANY, MANY, MANY) more precepts, and live by much stricter codes. The necessity of certain occupations is allowed, because they simply must be. The "badness" that these generate should be minimized. Is killing bad? Yeah, and it should be minimized. Not all killings are the same, however, and intention matters. That's not a license to kill, but an understanding that sometimes some things just happen.

The caste system of India has nothing to do with Buddhism, nor do the Burakumin of Japan have anything to do with Buddhism. Similar phenomena to the Burakumin arose in Christian Europe (one theory of the origin of the Cagots is that they were a village of leatherworkers). Indeed, much critique levied against Buddhism ultimately comes from its rejection of the Brahmanism of the Hindu caste system (I'm using Brahmanism in a specific context here).

>> No.15965435

>>15965153
your stupid pederastism is curable. by pain. imagine someone breaks your leg once you speak delirium out of fancy cool words just to show off that you learned to combine words, taking no responsibility for what you say, clown.

>> No.15965439

>>15965390
The Body of Christ, obviously. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church

>> No.15965444

>>15965392
It has a creator, metaphysical and ethical statements, beliefs about the soul, and supports to efficacy of prayer. How is Liberalism NOT a religion?

>b-but i-it says that i-it's not!
Liberals say that they're atheists to demonstrate their piety: they're being good IN SPITE of the lack of a God. The fact that they actually do believe in a God is irrelevant.

>> No.15965462

>>15965392
Behavior shapes society, but all explanation of behavior is simply rationalization? Are you retarded? Or what are you claiming shapes society?

>> No.15965487

>>15964042
What comes next is "«mystery of iniquity» in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh."

>> No.15965493

>>15965365
Okay so you don't actually have a source at all for what you said? I don't even believe that it's true. Burton has a bunch of different criticisms of the holes in Nagarjuna's logic in the book, not all of them have to do with the two truths, he doesn't even deny them in the book. You are just coping super hard with Burton's BTFOing of Nagarjuna that you are now just lying to people and gaslighting them about the points Burton makes in it in a desperate attempt to get people to still take Nagarjuna seriously instead of rightfully regarding him as the clown that he is.

>> No.15965511

Localized polytheism will lead the way to a brighter future. Abrahamists and centralizers mad

>> No.15965512

>>15964072
based.

>> No.15965539

>>15965487
>a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth
But this is what Christianity has been about. Just believe hard enough at the expense of everything else and your soul will be saved

>> No.15965542

>>15965511
What will be the metaphysics though?

>> No.15965564

>>15965170
>>le fairytales exx dee
>kill yourself you reductionist redditoid
Yes it's a goddamn fairytale, every fucking tribe in every fucking geographically separated region on the planet devised their own uncanny story of how the world was created and a long list of all the things GOD wants them to do, like not touching your peepee or only eating meat in certain days and not others. And they all contradict each other and think they're the correct ones. Fuck you. If you're a born atheist LARPing as a crusader patriarch then kill yourself. If you're raised genuinely religious and actually defend it then kill yourself also.

>> No.15965585

>>15965511
Wrong. And there is no bright future if you're burning in hell

>> No.15965595

>>15965493
My source is as follows
>Emptiness Appraised, by David Burton

That's all there is to it, dude. You googled "criticisms of buddhism", picked the first book with a fancy title that you saw, and had the misfortune of running into someone who actually read the book in question. Once again, you've been RETROACTIVELY REFUTED. Better luck next time.

>> No.15965642

>>15965434
Well you obviously know more about Buddhism than me. But I have studied some Buddhism and I definitely find its beliefs intriguing and possibly correct. Don't think i'll get over its extreme moralfagging(as I see it) though..

Seems to me that Buddhism is not really "open" to westerners. In all Buddhist societies Buddhism was ever only completely accepted by the monks, whereas the laypeople held on to their indigenous beliefs, be it Shintoism, Chinese folk religion, and all the local religions of Southeast Asia etc. European indigenous beliefs was eradicated by the Christians which means Europeans won't have an exoteric veil to put upon Buddhism so the only path open is basically a "sola scriptura Buddhism", a culture of raging moralizing harping church(temple) ladies. Europeans do not have the thousands of years of Buddhist syncretism so it can only be full on autismo-mode.

>> No.15965744

>>15964042
Advaita is meant for an intellectual elite, its not something which can be followed in a traditional manner by the masses. One of the non-dualist Shaivite/Tantric Hindu sects oriented towards householders would be more likely to spread among the western populace than any form of traditional Advaita.

>> No.15965769

>>15965595
>My source is as follows
>Emptiness Appraised, by David Burton
I'm asking for which page in this book he does that (he doesn't). If you can't even cite which page he does this it shows that you are lying and don't actually know what you are talking about. Why are the Buddhists on /lit/ so prone to deception and gaslighting?

>> No.15965799

>>15964042
>Christians and Atheists are not invited.
Guess who won't be invited in Paradise?

>> No.15965806

>>15965539
Pistis and apophatic gnosis? Do you know what you are talking about? The masses will always have a distorted grasp of truth, but Faith is the warrant even the most ignorant peasant enjoys a connection with the divine mystery of the monadic triadic God.

>> No.15965822

>>15965642
I agree with your assessment of Buddhism not really being open to Westerners. In my opinion, Asian religion in general tends to follow two patterns: very distant, highly formalized, utilitarian in the what's-in-it-for-me sense, or INCREDIBLY close master-student one-on-one relations. There's little middle ground, whereas the middle ground tends to characterize the Western religious experience (the priest can always get to you, but he can never dig around in your head). This suits Buddhism in a sense, because it very snugly fits the householder-monastic dichotomy, with the Monks actually doing very hardcore work and the laity just working to accrue merit (there is no "good" or "bad" karma in Buddhism; Merit is a Karma that brings you closer to enlightenment, demerit is karma that takes you farther away).

I don't think, however, that Buddhism is totally incapable of existing in the West, in a meaningful sense. The danger of "the-shittiest-parts-of-Protestantism Buddhism" is real, but then, these types of people don't meditate, they don't read scripture, and they get the basics wrong in such a manner that they scare off converts anyways. I can totally see some kind of Christian-Buddhism fusion wherein Buddhism adapts to fill the hole left by the death of Christianity (is getting a sermon from a monk, then meditating for half an hour on Sunday, REALLY that different from getting a sermon from a priest, then praying for half an hour?). There is also the possibility of just adopting the Classical aesthetic wholesale, such that monks walk around in togas and meditate in columned temples, but that's a bit too exotic for America, and frankly, most of Europe (perhaps this is "LARP", but let's be real normies won't care).

>> No.15965851

>>15965769
This is how I can tell that you didn't read the book. You want me to give you a page number so you can look through your collection of schizo walltexts, find one that's barely related, post it, and jerk off about how smart you are. If you'd read the book, you'd know exactly where I'm getting this from, because Burton is pretty fucking clear about what he says and why he's saying it. He's wrong, but he's organized.

You're not even interested in the fucking argument, you've spent like five posts desperately begging for me to play ball with you because you're totally incapable of actually having a debate. You could've just argued against the Two Truths Doctrine and saved yourself the trouble and embarrassment, because now we know Guenonfag cites books without actually reading them! How do we know you've actually read ANY of your schizo walltexts, then?

>> No.15965860

>>15965392
>It was not. All Western countries have been secular since before the 20th C
No, most of Western Europe is still 70% Christian and the largest political block are the Christiandemocrats, These are facts.

>> No.15965880

>>15965851
You are lying about what Burton says, he never does, don't you know that's a violation of the 8-fold path precepts of right speech and right intentions to lie like that?

>> No.15965883

>>15965822
Religion in the West is basically: How are we going to organise society in such a way that society becomes better and how can I do my part.

Its a moral/political faith. So in the West you get all these moral/political movements instaid of religions.

Tell a Western person to meditate and they will wonder what use does meditation have towards maintaining political goals and good moral character.

Its why Christianity has been slowly declining, most people in the West view politics, work, community etc as religious duties, not going to a church to sing hymns, which is only partially community related.

>> No.15965978

>>15965880
How would you know if I was lying or not? You haven't read the book.

>> No.15966034

>>15965860
>70% Christian
Well if you think Sweden is 67% then I suppose 70% number might be correct in all of the west. But you do realize that like only 2% of those 67% actually go to church and only 18% of the population believe there is a god. So is Sweden 67%, less than 2% or 18% Christian?

Saying western Europe is 70% Christian is quite optimistic.

>> No.15966104
File: 314 KB, 340x630, Mani.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15966104

The system's strangehold on this planet and its resources will progress to the point where Mani's conclusions about the nature of Good and Evil will become unavoidable. Hyper-Manichaeism here we come, baby.

>> No.15966123

>>15964042
>Christianity retroactively refuted by modernity
what do you think retroactively means?

>> No.15966131
File: 217 KB, 708x1024, 3104715608_79ee7ddc48_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15966131

Actually Christianity will be revived with materials from Schelling (and Hegel), Avant Garde Culture and Accelerationist ideas namely the Egregore-Hyperstitional way that the Future acts on the present. Yep. All aboard the futur anterior God of the future and his self-seeding through the miracle-glitch of Christ's resurection.

Read Schelling's On Human Freedom. Here's a PDF https://1lib.eu/book/842797/4755ef

That's not the best translation though, the Open Court Classics is better, couldn't find the pdf. If anyone got it plz share. Christ be with you,

>> No.15966204

>>15966034
Two things, one I was talking about Western Europe not Sweden, also if 67% of Sweden is Christian, then its impossible that only 18% think there is a God.

Now, the trick most Christians apply to to try and add extra criteria to what a Christian is, so for example you claim a real Christian must regularly visit church.

But this is a false criteria, because you wouldnt apply that to atheists or seculiarists. Demanding the only real ones are those that are part of a community.

So, Europe is Christian, not seculiar or atheistical.

>> No.15966246

>>15965542
The metaphysics of optionality

>> No.15966267

>>15966204
>67% of Sweden is Christian, then its impossible that only 18% think there is a God
The point is that there are wildly different criteria for how to measure these things. You can only get your 70% Christian Europe from just pulling data from like surveys where they ask people if they are Christian, Muslim or Atheist, or something like that. Or gathered from how large population is a member of a church(which is automatic with your birth certificate in some nations) or % of baptisms, which are completely cultural for many people and doesn't really have any religious meaning for many people just like the number of people celebrating Easter is not a good measurement. Look at church attendance in France/Sweden and it is at like 2-5%. Ask a lot of Europeans if they believe in basically any Christian doctrine and it will be a lot less than 70%.

30% Christians in western Europe are probably a lot closer to the actual number than 70%.

>> No.15966302

>>15966246
I think you'd be surprised at how needed an authentic and thorough metaphysics really is for religious faiths. Even though few Christians actually study the the Church Fathers and know what the fuck an essence is, I'd wager a lot of them subconsciously find some sort of solace in the fact that they know that there at least exists an intellectual tradition in Christianity, somewhere.

Could be wrong though

>> No.15966316

>>15966267
Whats the average attendance in secular/areligious/atheistical social gatherings?

Lets say only 2% of people in France go to church, alright thats far more then the average person spends in socialists gatherings or union meetings and the sort.

Also, I am still talking about Western Europe and not just France or Sweden, so the tricks you are using is.

1. Claim Christians need to visit communities, but dont claim that for the areligious.
2. Focus on the more irreligious parts of Europe and ignore the whole of Western Europe.

>> No.15966348

>>15965439
what? take a lot of meds important degenerate lol

>> No.15966400

If you follow religion that's major in the place of your birth, you are not a beliver, you are merely a member of a cargo cult. If you live in europe or either america and follow christianity, you might as well worship my dick.

>> No.15966401
File: 141 KB, 1342x1417, visitreligiousservices.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15966401

>>15966316
>1. Claim Christians need to visit communities, but dont claim that for the areligious.
Yes. Or believe in God. Or accept any of the Christians doctrines such as Jesus being the son of God, immaculate birth, trinity, bodily resurrection etc.
>2. Focus on the more irreligious parts of Europe and ignore the whole of Western Europe.
France and Sweden are two examples and France is actually a big portion of western Europe. Do you think Brits are a lot more religious? Dutch? Germans? If only 27% of French people say they believe in God then your 70% number is probably way off.

>> No.15966411

>>15965439
There is no salvation inside of the Catholic Church

>> No.15966428

>>15966401
I live in Poland and genuinly don't know anyone who goes to church. These stats are usually made up.

>> No.15966434

>>15966401
>Yes. Or believe in God. Or accept any of the Christians doctrines such as Jesus being the son of God, immaculate birth, trinity, bodily resurrection etc.
Alright, but then you need to apply the same thing to the irreligious, mention a set of core values they all need to agree on, to be truly areligious. But most areligious have no core values, so Christianity is still the more coherent ideological block.

>>15966401
>France and Sweden are two examples and France is actually a big portion of western Europe. Do you think Brits are a lot more religious? Dutch? Germans? If only 27% of French people say they believe in God then your 70% number is probably way off.
Well, if they where not, the Christiandemocrats wouldnt be the largest voting block in Western Europe.

Again, how many of the irreligious visit social gatherings specifically tied to their irreligion? If almost none do, then you must admit they are not reall irreligious and Christianity is again the dominant factor.

>> No.15966462

Nothing has retroactively refuted everything
/thread

>> No.15966475
File: 145 KB, 640x487, PF.06.13.18_religiouscommitment-03-09-.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15966475

>>15966434
>Christiandemocrats wouldnt be the largest voting block in Western Europe
You do realize just because their name is Christiandemocrats doesn't mean they're Christian right or that the people that vote for them are Christians? Or maybe i'm wrong and Merkel is a staunch Christian.

It appears nothing will convince you that Christianity have utterly collapsed in Europe. Japan is a more religious country than most of western Europe.

>> No.15966516

>>15966302
But polytheism has a metaphysics. Its foundation is, as a said before, the principle of having multiple options. This principle can be observed in nature, for instance the branches of trees, rivers and the structure of organic matter, such as our lungs. Optionality is the default setting of nature. If you look at the biological order of species, you’ll see the same tree structure. Polytheism works by the same principle. It is a self organizing system that is ordered in the same decentralized way, where the structure of the system is caused by the seemingly chaotic interaction between various entities. Polytheism is a divine representation of this. The only difference between it and monotheism is that its structure is the result of a bottom-up dynamic, instead of a top-down dynamic. Where monotheism is the divine representation of centralization and universalism, polytheism is the divine representation of decentralization and localism. In it, local interactions rise to the surface and a structure emerges, whereas in monotheism, it is imposed.

By the way, these metaphysics never left us when Christianity came to dominate. There were merely driven to the background of western civilization, only to resurface during the Renaissance. It’s no accident that the values of the Renaissance were heavily related with the rediscovery of works from ancient Greece and ancient Rome. When these works and values within these works became available again, they brought with them this sense of optionality, the necessity of having more than only one option. This optionality lives on in many aspects of what we have declared western values, such as freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, democracy, the marketplace of ideas, etc., etc. All of these values are build on a foundation of freedom of choice, and free choice is predicated on the existence of more than one option. Many of these western values are therefore explicitly not monotheistic values. They are explicitly polytheistic values

>> No.15966546

>>15966475
>You do realize just because their name is Christiandemocrats doesn't mean they're Christian right or that the people that vote for them are Christians? Or maybe i'm wrong and Merkel is a staunch Christian.
Again, do you apply the same logic to the labour movement, yes or not.

>>15966475
>It appears nothing will convince you that Christianity have utterly collapsed in Europe.
It hasnt, 91% baptized. 81% raised as a Christian, 71% identifies as Christian, 22% regularly visit church, this is in Western Europe.

https://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/

This is enormous compared to Socialists or Liberals. Its clear that Europe still is and still thinks as a Christian. Again, you cant demand we count only the 22% who visit churches, but not to apply this to the irreligious.

Either everyone who selfidentifies is part of the group, or only the ones who regular visit the community, in either case christianity is the dominant religious.

>> No.15966583

>>15966400
So in order to prevent conformity, the dominant religion should change every generation?

>> No.15966592

>>15966104
Based and electpilled
Augustine and his sour grapes btfo

>> No.15966706

>>15966462
Except Guenon did

>> No.15966767

>>15966546
It's clear you're an American trying to desperately hold on to your imagined "European Christendom". Christianity is all but dead in most of Western Europe. America compared to Europe is some kind of medieval Christian fundamentalist culture, no country in western Europe even comes close.

Yes 22% of western Europeans being Christians are probably closer to the truth. Maybe add 15% for the people that believe but does not attend.

>> No.15966773

>>15966546
The church is dead. Let it go.

>> No.15966780

>>15966592
>Based and electpilled.
Based and electpilled.

>> No.15967527

>>15964965
it won't be connected to christianity

>> No.15967735

>>15966411
>>15966348

Cope

>> No.15967870

I will tell you what comes next Baal poster

Christianity at its core is about self mastery and sins are things in which human beings can lose themselves in and hurt both themselves and others. now that Christianity is gone people will be encouraged to freely lose themselves in sin and this will create a conduit through which they can be easily manipulated and controlled à la brave new world. society will transform into a well oiled machine of consumerism wherein people are nothing more than cogs, and when they are worn down by the process, they are simply tossed aside and replaced via mass immigration

>> No.15967887

>>15965883
>which is only partially community related.
I mean that last part is a big maybe tbqh. It depends on how tight knit your Christian community is. If it's just one of those meet up in the mall supermall, screanm "Halleluujah" and go home (it can also be applied to Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran and othe Protestant parishes instead of just evangelicals. It's more of a general idea), then yeah it's not really much of a community. But if it's like my Catholic parish and I'd imagine a lot of smaller town Protestant parishes where people know each other on a first name basis, help each other out through prayer and action in times of trouble and interact with one another outside Mass/sermons, then that's an actual church community. But I think the decline in Christianity in the West is tied with the decline in traditional communities like the village. Humans are social animals. Our roles in society (as a father/mother, husband/wife, brother/sister, friend, relative,etc) is an integral part of our being. The decline in community in a lot of Christian churches has led to people finding their meaning in life in other places to replace that loss, via work, politics, sports,etc and in essence now function in the same way church used to (not for everyone, but for a good deal of people). Plus, the whole growth of these moral/political movements is the result of the Enlightenment, which was the beginning of the de-Christianization of Western culture. It's not fair to say that's what Christianity is at it's core when you are using the metrics not of the original Early Church, but people that were either nominal Christians, agnostics or atheists that were trying to secularize the culture they had lived in and get rid of a lot of the theological aspects of it.

>> No.15967899

>>15967527
Yes it will. The Second Religiousness of Spengler isn't Christianity and Constantine, it's Augustan Roman Paganism and Augustus. It's the government forcing you to LARP at gun point. Christianity is the religion of the US Empire, so it HAS to be Christianity. It can't not be, and the US isn't going to convert away from American Protestantism anytime soon (the Second Religiousness is an evolution of American Protestantism, it isn't a new religion or denomination).

>> No.15968188

>>15965004
>The idea of human being made in the image of god
Will be seen as human benevolence and love, not our forms and shapes.

>> No.15968883

>>15965194
>Religion is a parasite feeding off of normal social structures.
Religion, or religious belief rather, is the axiom around which all of human society revolves.

>> No.15968904
File: 37 KB, 332x449, jeebus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15968904

>>15964042
just like Jesus, Christianity itself will rise from the dead. you cannot kill eternal truth.

>> No.15968915

some new age religion where "we're all one" will come along after christianity is stomped out completely
Just like in Brave New World

>> No.15968985
File: 76 KB, 900x900, 1594010178893.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15968985

>>15965025
>>15965041
"The West" didnt exist before christianity. Western EVROPA!! Was the backwards ass end of the the Roman empire which was unceremoniously abandoned after it was invaded by the germans. "The West" spanning from Spain to Greece is the territorial borders of christendom.

If youd actually read the bible youd notice the many times the prophets warnes against the very same problems the west faces today. Isaiah talks about foreign entanglements, Ezekiel talks about sexual impropriety, Jesus Christ talked about hypocrisy and pride. The EU is the tower of babel. You sound like a typical pseud that thinks praying for your enemies means you hope they dominate you.

>> No.15969020

I've tried reading the bible but I'm having trouble believing it and my brain keeps thinking "oh so the secular explanation for this is..."

It should be illegal to expose children to atheism.

>> No.15969061
File: 9 KB, 241x209, robin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15969061

>But what comes next? Now that Christianity is dead in the west, where do we go from here?

>now that we reject any material approach to our existence but abrahamic metaphysics, institutions, history and aesthetics are gauche, where do we go from here?

anti-racism, which transcends facts and figures in favor of the ineffable systemic and otherwise "racism" that will still exist when whites are a minority in the great satan in a few decades. a microcosm already exists in south africa but in the US it is hitting particularly hard and is the new christcuckery, and infecting yurop in its wake. in another life, robin diangelo is a protestant church scold.

i wish i could time travel to 2500 and see if they have an actual spiritualist faith based on shit gay anti-racism shit that exists in 2020.

>> No.15969450

>>15966516
>a divine representation of _
What do you mean by this? Like a metaphor? An eternal Form?

>> No.15969629
File: 22 KB, 480x360, 1593470490989.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15969629

>>15968904
show me one christian who rose from dead after reading bible

>> No.15969638

>>15968915
we are all one is not new age. it is old as Universe.

>> No.15969665

>>15967735
take meds and anal dildo

>> No.15969778

>>15967870
Stop pretending Christianity is just a philosophy.

Christianity at it's core is about creation ex nihilo, Adam and Eve, original sin, a chosen tribe and it being personally guided by the creator of the universe, a personal God, eternal heaven and hell based on belief in a Jesus character, the resurrection and the eventual resurrection of everyone's long dead grandpa. Christianity didn't die because people stopped wanting to improve themselves. It lost because it is simply considered too unbelievable, the bar for belief is too high. It lost too many battles against science and common sense.

A future religion must be more sensible. Possibly some sort of polytheism. That natural forces have some sort of abstract reality behind them is not a big leap of faith. Nor is the impersonal Ineffable.

>> No.15969932

>>15964042
>Nietzschean worship of the Übermensch?
This. It's already starting. To think the world can go back to going to church and following books is naive at best, insanity at worst, regardless of the religion. The new masses want culturally dominant individuals to lead them now.

>> No.15970109

The only way forward is through quasi-religious practices of self mastery.

>> No.15970137

>>15964042
If you believe Christianity is dead in the West you are high.
Christ is eternal. And if we think we can live without him because we are so wise we are in trouble

>> No.15970218

>>15970137
Christianity should be dead, along with Islam and Judaism. These are three thorns in the side of Western civilization that just won't go away. They're the root of all sadistic cruelty in the world.

>> No.15970221

>>15970137
It kind of is in the West though. I doubt more than 1% of young people go to Church in most of the West. Maybe like 5% in America.

>> No.15970288

>>15970137
you just think so. recursion in brain.

>> No.15970550

>>15970137
>christianity is not dead in the West because I have a religious conviction that it can't
This is what one would call a cope

>> No.15971349

>>15965642
>Europeans won't have an exoteric veil to put upon Buddhism
Western Buddhism incorporates Christ as a Boddhivista, a being who out of compassion refuses nirvana and choses to be reborn on Earth to teach people dharma.

Buddhism is well equipped to absorb any other religion and messanic ones in particular, they can be interpreted as gods/beings who convert to Buddhism in their god/dream-realms. Buddhism always has recourse to tiers of imaginary realms where imaginary spiritual beings can be won over to the Buddha.

The hard problem for Buddhism is its opposition to sexual libertinism. Buddhism can't endorse Grindr morality so it will be condemned by the West as an evil sect on the wrong side of history and pushed aside.

>> No.15971432

>>15970550
on god we trust remains printed on us dollar.

>> No.15972529

>>15971349
>Western Buddhism incorporates Christ as a Boddhivista, a being who out of compassion refuses nirvana and choses to be reborn on Earth to teach people dharma.
Doubt. According to Buddhism Jesus was a very very very confused man that thought he was the creator of the universe and talked about heaven/hell.

>> No.15972531

‘So God’s dead?’

‘If that’s who he was. That fucking kid lied all the time. I just hope it’s true this time.’

The barman worked at one of his teeth with his tongue, uneasily:

‘It’s kindova big crime though, isn’t it? You know how it is, when one of the cops goes down and everything’s dropped ’til they find the guy who did it. I mean, you’re not just breaking a law, your breaking LAW.’

I scraped my finger along my jeans, and suspended it over the bar, so that a thick clot of blood fell down into my whisky, and dissolved. I smiled:

‘Maybe it’s a big crime,’ I mused vaguely ‘but maybe it’s nothing at all…’ ‘…and we have killed him’ writes Nietzsche, but—destituted of community—I crave a little time with him on my own.

In perfect communion I lick the dagger foamed with God’s blood.

>> No.15972546

The incorrect "sacrificial" understanding of Christianity is dying, but Christianity's final form is only just emerging. Read the works of Rene Girard if you want to know more.

>> No.15972552

>>15966706
He retroactively refuted millions...

>> No.15972571
File: 708 KB, 889x741, e1f9afb.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15972571

>>15964965
>it is important that we believe in the idea of God even if we don't believe in God himself.
Thats the most pathetic thing I have read so far

>> No.15972572

>>15964042
Religion as we know it is dead, Roko's basilisk is the future

>> No.15972633

>>15972529
There's no saying he needs to be. God as Christians imagine him doesn't work, but
>Yahweh, the deluded yet caring being, who is through some vague bullshit actually three things, is totally real, he just also needs Dharma, which is why he became human, so he could learn dharma, but he kind of fucked up in some vague manner
is totally workable. It's batshit insane, but it's totally workable.

>>15971349
I don't think sex is as high of a selling point as you're making it. Liberalism decreases the sex Americans have. Gay Sex is almost a religious sacrament to Liberalism, but one for clergy and not laity. You don't have to partake, but you have to support the Elect in their doing it. I don't see why this can't just be transferred to something else ("you don't have to sacrifice the baby to Moloch, but you have to cheer when the High Priest does it" and "you don't have to be a monk, but you have to give alms to them" are functionally the same thing). Realistically, how many people are actually having Gay Sex? Not many.

The Laity in Buddhism are allowed to knock boots in a safe and healthy manner all they want. If anything, introducing an Eastern Religion will increase the sex Americans have (China is wildly oversexed compared to America. No, just because they pretend they're clean doesn't mean that they are).

>> No.15972646

>>15972633
Better to stop trying to cling to any biblical character once you embrace Buddhism.

>> No.15972767
File: 74 KB, 640x480, bear.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15972767

Christianity will always exist, though it'll probably end up as a Hare Krishna kind of thing fueled by converted city people who had an existential crisis and crave tradition and pretty aesthetics.

>> No.15972773

>>15964042
Technocrats worship Roko's Basilik, the HR departments and academics worship anti-racism, and the proles worship commodities and popular culture.

>> No.15972826

>>15972646
I agree entirely, I'm just saying that if you wanted to go full schizo you could do it.

>> No.15972864

>>15972633
>It's batshit insane
only if you reduce chrisitanity to a strawman that you can easily beat while ignoring how nonsensical it is to have any sort of alternative spirituality to christianity in a materialistic universe.

>> No.15972926

>>15972864
>how nonsensical it is to have any sort of alternative spirituality to christianity in a materialistic universe
You're going to have to elaborate on this, because usually when this stuff comes up Christfags throw out that Christianity makes sense specifically because it denies materiality, and affirms a sort of soft-dualism.

>> No.15973036

>>15965256
Buddhism in the traditional sense is not widely practiced in Japan.

>> No.15973085

>>15973036
Neither was Judaism-as-it-was in turn of the century Israel, as most of what Judaism entailed was focused around the Cohen class and the Temple. Indeed, Roman conquest atrophied it even further. Most of Christ's interactions were with an educated yet still lay elite.

Which just matches up perfectly with Japan, which has a hyper-formalized yet ultimately tiny and realistically powerless religious establishment, but a large collective of educated, scholarly, yet still lay elites.

>> No.15973093

>>15964042
Everything must be cleansed. We will be destroyed and returned to our roots where we belong. Modernity is not healthy for the human mind as shown by the incredible rise of mental illness in the west.

>> No.15973312

>>15964072
joey world tour
the most influential philosopher of the 21st century

>> No.15973420

>>15967527
>>15964042

a antithesis springs from a thesis. whatever the bext religious movement will be, it will enevitably be post-christian, and therefor ultimately partially a product of christianity. you cant simply “go back” to polytheism. the universalist mindset has already been established. you can only be “post” something. there could be polythiestic elements to a new religious movement, but it wile not be polytheism proper. whatver it is, it will be a sequential effect of what came before and will ultimately be a product and synthesis of it and the new.

>> No.15974573

>>15965025
>>15965041
Jesus Christ more regurgitated brainlet shit.

>> No.15975451

>>15964965
Unlike Catholicism now. But the church will find a way like it has for 2000 years.

>> No.15975473

>>15964042
Mormonism, Amish, all the religions with the heights birthrates now will become the predominant ones in the future. It's a demographics game which is why today's atheist will never predominate, because they have no reason to have kids.

>> No.15975992

>>15966131
The perspectives coming out of Accelerationism actually seem closest to providing a genuinely new pathway to religiosity that is contiguous with the context of the modern West.

Not sure how easily it could be squared with Christianity though. It will require a monumental amount of philosophical work to reseat it in the Western mind.

>> No.15976946

>>15964042
>It's on topic because I dismissively said book recommendations are part of the thread to troll people.

No.

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