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15951526 No.15951526[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

So we know Capitalism will fall, probably within our lifetimes. We know Communism is a joke and will not replace it.

The only questions remains, what actually will?

>> No.15951532

>>15951526
techno feudalism

>> No.15951534

>>15951526
The realization that nothing was ever in place

>> No.15951554

nothing, North Korea will nuke USA before collapsing and they'll go to a war that will last for 5 hours at best

>> No.15951558

>>15951526
Tyranny, the natural default

>> No.15951560
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15951560

>>15951526
Capitalism will never fall. It will keep evolving, adapting to its new environment. Capitalism plays off man's instincts and base desires like no system ever has. Communism cannot compete, neither can fascism, socialism, national socialism, "fourth positionism", or any meme ideology. You ever wonder why communism has so much theory? Its because thats the only way it can ever exist. In theory; as an abstraction. Capitalism is so natural that we were practicing it before we even had a name for it. No one had to "theorize" capitalism, fight a "capitalist revolution" or do any of the pathetic shit commies had to do to get their political system in place. If there were an alternative we would already be living it.

>> No.15951623
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15951623

READ DUGIN NOW

>> No.15951774

>>15951526
I dunno I gather Fascism. At least after some sort of tyranny as the other anon said.

>> No.15951785
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15951785

>>15951526

>> No.15951861
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15951861

>>15951526
The other thing.
It’s called communism, socialism, anarchism. I even heard someone say it’s just that capitalism Adam Smith advocated. Non accumulative currency, non market economy.

>> No.15951880

Transhumanist robofascism

>> No.15951902
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15951902

>>15951560
This, capitalism will evolve and become more and more complex with time, to the point that no human will be capable of understanding it anymore, it will become and entirely abstract notion that we used to call "capitalism" the future is on AI and we are all doomed

>> No.15951930
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15951930

>> No.15951987

>>15951526
Capitalism doesn't have to fail, but it will need to be more adaptable to get rid of the endless growth meme and consumerism.

A new system of valuation is important, instead of aiming for a number with lots of zero's in their bank account, richfags could focus more about social respect. It'd be still the same ego driven shit we have now but with more reasons not to be a selfish dick.

>>15951930
Is a decent idea but fails because the values are decided by the state. Doing it more like social media with likes and dislikes by actual people would be actually representative to the values of the population.

>> No.15952258

>>15951526
who knows man lmao

>> No.15952271

>>15951902
>>15951560
agreed hypercapitalism is most likely.
or>>15951532 but that’s basically the same thing if we consider all property fiefdom.

>> No.15952280

>>15951861
so hypo-capitalism then?

>> No.15952338

Literally impossible for capitalism to fall now that globalization happened, anything else you hear is a cope. Until the day we die we’re gonna have the same 5 social media corporations and news networks driving all public discourse

>> No.15952352
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15952352

Recursive Matrioshka Brain Universe.

>> No.15952361

>>15951987
>Is a decent idea but fails because the values are decided by the state. Doing it more like social media with likes and dislikes by actual people would be actually representative to the values of the population.
That's the most horrifying idea I've ever heard in my life. I'd rather be judged by a Xi Jinping than by every retard with a phone.

>> No.15952372
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15952372

>>15952280
I wouldn’t call it capitalism, no.

>> No.15952408

>>15951526
The notion of ideologically pure economic systems is somewhat of a myth. We do not have pure capitalism in the United States. China does not have pure communism. It is naive to root for one system or the other, the way one would root for a sports team. In truth, existing economic systems borrow from a wide range of theoretical ideas. In most cases it is the ideology and material conditions of the ruling class that wields the strongest influence over economic policies and decides how resources are distributed.

In a true democracy the out-sized influence of the wealthy and powerful is theoretically mitigated by the popular vote. No such democracy exists today - certainly not in the US. The majority of people are passive, uneducated, and quick to choose convenience over conscience. They have been tamed by decades of propaganda, exploitative labor practices, and a misguided sense of trust in the system. The elites have a stranglehold on the levers of politics, and they use it to serve themselves at the expense of the less fortunate.

>> No.15952417

>>15952408
For the sake of simplicity, let us imagine a future where the internet has fostered a greater sense of civic duty and political awareness among the general public. People are generally well educated, voting is seen as an important duty, and the governing powers have been forced to be more transparently receptive to the public will. What needs would such a system prioritize? What economic features would it have? How would it differ from existing capitalism?

One major weakness of capitalist systems is accounting for external costs. Fossil fuel companies don't pay for the environmental damage they cause - in fact they profit from it! The producers of medical supplies have no financial incentive to hold stockpiles in case of a pandemic event: capitalism dictates they are to maximize short term profits, not act in the best interest of society at large. If corporations can only be counted on to act selfishly, then it is up to the government to regulate their behavior to prioritize the greater good over personal profit. Environmental regulations, labor laws, progressive tax policy, and antitrust legislation, all of these are necessary for keeping corporate greed in check. In the US today many of these regulations are being dismantled as special interest groups and lobbyists buy politicians - and in some cases write the laws themselves. This is an unsustainable and ultimately destructive state of affairs.

In the future, the division between the corporate sector and government authority must become as sacrosanct as the one dividing church and state.

>> No.15952430

>>15952417
We are quickly approaching a time when the majority of labor will be performed by machines, at a fraction of the cost. If we are to avoid a feudal dystopia where those who own these machines accumulate unimaginable wealth while the rest of us jostle for the scraps, we must think carefully about how these resources will be redirected towards public welfare.

The economy of the future must provide a minimum standard of living for every citizen. Education, healthcare, housing, and perhaps even food will be part of this package, paid for by taxes on the skyrocketing profits of automated industry. As the number of viable jobs decreases, a universal basic income will become necessary. The costs of these programs will be high, but manageable if financial resources are prevented from accumulating in the hands of the privileged few.

Existing capitalism generates incredible wealth, but also promotes incredible greed. A society stratified by vastly unequal access to wealth and resources is doomed to collapse. The flaws of existing capitalism must be mitigated by a strong, transparent, democratic governmental authority. If we fail to address the problems of inequality and environmental damage, the long term survival potential of our species is nil.

>> No.15952436

>>15952408
>The notion of ideologically pure economic systems is somewhat of a myth
Totally a myth.

>> No.15952450

>>15952361
>be anti-authoritarian
>Winnie Poo judges you -1000
>TEH people judge you +500 -500
How is the first option better? No matter what you do or say, there is a good chance there are millions of people around the world who'd think it's something positive. With the Chinese system there is zero plurality of opinions on the other hand.

>> No.15952457

>>15952436
True. It would be hard to define what even constitutes "ideological purity" for any school of thought.

The majority of people are under the impression "capitalism good, communism bad", and their insight into the issue ends there. This is a huge problem.

>> No.15952522

>>15951558
You faggots don't know the first thing about what's natural. Like everyone else, you have a fantasy about the human prehistory and then you cherrypick examples to prove your point

>> No.15952532

>>15951560
Why don't you take the fourth position over my dick

>> No.15952703

>>15952522
This is so common, and so frustrating. Human nature is complex. We are a social species, a communal species, and certainly not predisposed to wanton tyranny and violence. The main obstacle to human coexistence seems to be the scope of our perceived outgroup. If this can be broadened, then there’s no reason why an empathetic global society cannot exist.

>> No.15952733

>>15951526
>So we know Capitalism will fall, probably within our lifetimes.
Why?

>> No.15952858

>>15951526
A strange new system where there is no major government because there are no more majorities. No more national borders. All currency is crypto. There will be collectives based on various commonalities like race, former nationality, wealth, culture, ideology, and so on.

>> No.15952872

>>15952703
>We are a social species, a communal species,
true
>and certainly not predisposed to wanton tyranny and violence
absolutely not true

cooperation and conflict are both in our nature

>> No.15952919

>>15952450
No, thanks. An authoritarian state persecuting its political enemies is easier for me to deal with than an institutionalised lynch mob. I don't have a high opinion of "the values of the population".

>> No.15952974

>>15952450
Actually both are fucking awful

>> No.15953335

>>15952919
>I don't have a high opinion of "the values of the population"
But you depend on it in a democracy either way. Might as well make it more direct and transparent.

Besides, the key part is getting money out of the equation since people "hoarding moneys" is what lead to basically any issue we have to deal with now. If we switch it to hoarding likes, even people driven purely by ego would contribute to society. It would fix the unsustainable nature of capitalism without taking away the greed factor.

>> No.15953343

>>15952858
But how would solve global questions? Say collective A wants to rape collective B. Or something more basic like shitting into a lake other collectives also use.

>> No.15953356

>>15951526
The reintegration of oligarchy, then eventually autocracy, then feudalism and true monarchism. Societal trends are cylical

>> No.15953400

>>15953343
Who knows? Will there still be "global" questions? Maybe automation will render such conflicts impossible, and all that will be left are conflicts of the virtual kind.

>> No.15953404

>>15952430
I like this post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is some wisdom.

>> No.15953421

>>15951526
state capitalism, Dengist model. You only think capitalism is failing because the ZOG world order is collapsing. China has seen real wage increases for the past 20 years.

Jewish usury will probably survive this as well -- they will purchase the remaining land from the boomer's children as the nigger mob creeps ever closer to their suburb.

>> No.15953491

>>15951554
inshallah brother

>>15952352
Everything outside of the top right quad looks dope

>> No.15953589

>>15952430
>>15953404
What 430 described is exactly SocDem, which I am absolutely sympathetic towards but can't shake the notion that the capitalist elite will always be capable of chewing through their binds and just going right back to owning the government again.

Maybe if the population has a strong class consciousness and a widely shared genuine hatred for the rich it would be more feasible, but I just don't know. Most of all I fear technology, as a computer science grad. An ideal system would be minimizing human labor and maximizing automation, but human labor is cheap as chips right now and all our social lives are soon going to be a completely online twitchurbate nightmare realm

>> No.15953797

>>15951902

Imagine being this Little Eichmann and right when you think you're about to hit the ground, you see the ground open up into an orange-red pit and you keep falling for a few more minutes.

>> No.15953807

>>15951526
Actual capitalism.

>> No.15953936

>>15953589
Class consciousness, civic-mindedness, and quality education are the keys. Unfortunately, they are doing everything they can to prevent us from having any of these.

>> No.15953942

>>15951526
National syndicalism. Much of fascism is an evolution of the leftists movements and ends up fixing a lot of the major glaring issues. Of there are issues of their own.

So of course commies hate it, fascism has made communism outdated.

>> No.15953948

>>15953807
>My special kind of capitalism hasn’t been tried yet!
Yes it has. And it led to gulags

>> No.15953952
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15953952

>>15951560
Picrel bolsters your position.

>> No.15953954

>>15953942
of course they have their own issues as well*

>> No.15953959

>>15951560
Based

>> No.15953983

The computer on your desk and cellphone in your pocket with be worth tenfold what they are now by the end of the century. Scarcity is returning soon enough, prepare well it is easy.

>> No.15953990

>>15953983
>well
Fuck I am retarded. Stand by my take though.

>> No.15953998
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15953998

>>15951560
>No one had to "theorize" capitalism, fight a "capitalist revolution
THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT THE FRENCH REVOLUTION WAS YOU STUPID FUCKING PSEUD. GOD DAMN I CANT STAND HOW AHISTORICAL AND RETARDED YOU ARE

>> No.15954015

>>15953589
>>15953936
>class consciousness
I don't see what this would solve. The herd knowing that it's the herd isn't beneficial to the herd. Herds will always exist; most people will always seek a supreme authority to be commanded by. Or am I misunderstanding the purpose of it?

>> No.15954021

>>15953998
>French revolution
>capitalist
Liberalism =/ capitalism

>> No.15954032

>>15954021
>what is a bourgeois revolution

>> No.15954036

>>15954032
Yeah what is that?

>> No.15954037

>>15952352
The fuck is a Globohomo Vampire-Elite Enslavement?

>> No.15954039

>>15951526
Planned economies with market socialism.

>> No.15954042

>>15951560
If it is so natural it makes one wonder why anyone practices any other 'ideology' or how it could ever lose to socialism

>> No.15954043

>>15954039
Yeah because that was great for the 6 years it lasted in Yugoslavia

>> No.15954049

>>15954042
If homosexuality is so natural why is isn’t everyone gay?

>> No.15954057

>>15954049
If heterosexuality is so natural why isn't everyone straight?

>> No.15954060

>>15954043
Worked out reasonably well. Planned economies of some sort will be needed in the future, and political instability is not likely to leave the present capitalist structure untouched.

>> No.15954063

>>15954057
If breathing is so natural why doesn’t everyone do it?

>> No.15954068

>>15952372
The government you want will never exist unless it's an ethnostate

>> No.15954069

>>15954063
If dying is so natural why isn't everyone dead?

>> No.15954077

I don’t know if it’ll fall within our lifetime but it’ll be replaced by Caesarian of some sort

>> No.15954078

>>15953983
Yeah, capitalism as we know it is predicated on the premise of limitless growth which will eventually face a reckoning. Certain minerals are bound to be mined to extinction, particularly essential production inputs that go into electronics.
This isn't directly a fault of capitalism because any economic system would run up against these limits. It's just that capitalism is optimized for growth. It is less primed maintaining sustainable, stable states.
I would like to hope that a more eco-friendly economics emerges in the coming decades, perhaps forced by a dialectic with climate change induced environmental disruptions to the current developed world living standards.

>> No.15954081

>>15954068
Butterfag doesn't want a government, which is precisely why its so retarded

>> No.15954090

>>15953983
Based and resource limitation pilled

>> No.15954092

>>15951526
whole world starting ftom west slowly becomes a mental hospital and labour camp combined. you name it with some -ism.

>> No.15954094

Post-Scarcity Anarchism, hopefully. Hyper-Capitalism, most likely (and unfortunately).

>> No.15954101

>>15954081
Even more then is there a need for ethnostates
Blacks and whites will not be in tribes together

>> No.15954102

>>15954094
>Anarchism
lolno

>> No.15954134

>>15954101
Ethnostate implies state, which butterfag has a problem with as an anarkiddie

>> No.15954139

>>15954094
>post scarcity
No such thing

>> No.15954154

>>15954021
and why's that? Because they have different names? Liberalism is capitalist ideology through and through. It's all about muh freedom to do whatever I want with muh property.

>> No.15954160

>>15951526
Merit-based utopia. It will take a long time to transition to this, though. We already see it in the zoomer generation, and how they don't value careers or work, and just want to live and enjoy life without the pressure of working for a living. This will be passed to future generations as technology and automation continues to advance, until almost no manned labor exists. All will be controlled by quantum computers and uber-fast wireless internet-based apps. I think we will be to that phase by about 2045.

>> No.15954167

>>15951861
it will work this time

>> No.15954179

>>15951623
Dugin doesn't touch on economics much nigga. He flat out rejects materialism.

>> No.15954181

>>15954160
>Retards like this think the rich will just hand over their power
Once automation gets bad enough they will have no use for most plebs like you and me. And don't think we can force them to help us with the government. The ultimate blackpill is that economic collapse is good for the working man. If growth and innovation continues most people will be lucky to be slaves.

>> No.15954187

A mixed system, because utopias are for retards and never work

>> No.15954197

>>15954101
They're already in tribes together.

>> No.15954218

>>15954181
It's gonna happen, bro. Like I said, the transition will take a long time, tho. When it comes to societal changes, you can't rip the bandaid off. You have to peel it off slowly over the course of decades. In the future, everyone will be provided an identical living. If you want more, you will have to do something that provides to society above and beyond just sucking air and eating food and shitting in toilets. If you want more than the average person, you will need to earn it. That is just how it's going to be.

>> No.15954246

>>15954181
"The rich" aren't some mythical creatures but just people who lucked out. Most billionaires don't even come from especially rich families but basic middle class shit.

Obviously some will protest losing their power with any means but many will accept whatever comes.

>>15954160
You don't even need futuristic shit or automation for it. Something as simple as basic income would instantly shift the balance and employers would be forced to reward workers better while a safety net would take the forceful aspect out of work too.

>> No.15954333

>>15954160
Automation is the big question which will likely determine the fate of capitalism. More so than endless growth or other criticisms IMO. The existing body of theory was designed around the idea that labor is half the economy. New ideas will have to be formulated to accomodate it.

The problem of automation is the assumption that it will form a perfect circuit, we can call this pure automation. That is unlikely, as there will likely be holes in the automated process where humans have to step in. This is the view that automation is labor-augmenting rather than replacing. The machines will still have to be told what to do and be guided by human intelligence.

But the wider implication is that automation is essentially the replacement of labor with capital. But the purpose of an economy is to produce material value for a population. If there is nobody to buy the goods produced by automation because nobody has an income because they've been replaced by a robot, the motive for producing the robots ceases and the entire rationale for automating collapses in on itself. The logical result then is that the existing models have to be tossed out. At point of theoretically perfect automation there will no more need for money as we currently understand it. Research shows that as production becomes better (easier, cheaper, more efficient) the cost of the output decreases.

Of course these theoretical idealizations are bound to fall short of the reality. We're likely to be stuck in a shitty half-automated state that sucks for many people and nothing is done about it because a tiny elite wield all the power and couldn't be bothered to do anything about and face no consequences.

Sorry if this post comes of as spergy but I wanted to think each detail through.

>> No.15954380

>>15954333
Automation and AI would do what Asian wageslaves do now. Not something that matters in the first world because we have a service economy with a touch of research and the likes.

Creative jobs or stuff where people want to interact with another human won't be touched.

The only critical part is a safety net for the people who have yet to develop skills to contribute beyond physical labour.

>> No.15954400

>>15951526
Fascism

>> No.15954524

>>15951558

We never moved away from tyranny you dummy.

>> No.15954637
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15954637

>>15954380
service economy, yes. to solve a problem for money you learned how to create problems.

>> No.15954650

>>15954637
The problems are basically infinite given we're creative animals that respond to a fulfilled wish with more. Service economy just monetizes the stuff.

>> No.15954659
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15954659

>>15954094
>Not Post-Scarcity Monarchism
>Not having automated armies that build themselves
>Not waging war against all the degernate hippies around you not to acquire their land or resources, but because it's your calling as a self-actualized man
shiggy

>> No.15954731

>>15954060
>state collapsed
>went reasonably well

>> No.15954733

Humanity will fall far sooner than capitalism, sadly.

>> No.15954746

>>15951526
>So we know Capitalism will fall
Myself I know that OP is an illiterate faggot.

>> No.15954754

>>15952352
Archeofuturist Miyazaki Patchwork sounds pretty neat

>> No.15954758

>>15954659
what are you going to do with all that land and resource? Sit around and masturbate?

>> No.15954761

>>15951526
capitalism? a meme, there are no "systems", everything is fundamentally the same, and cannot change

>> No.15954786

>>15954167
This but unironically

>> No.15954870

unironically anarcho hyper-capitalism
Let us quickly acknowledge the worrying socio-political trends that will soon cause great upheavels. The politics of the day promotes equality, diversity and accepts mass migration as the standard, which is enforced by both the state (for the economic boon of balancing generational accounts) and the people (adherents to our modern religion). The direct and indirect consequences of such migration is division and civil strife, a huge glut of cheap, unskilled labour and increased competition for upskilling (the extension of the educational system to the point where it's become a business) to the point where even top jobs are beginning to experience a glut of labour. Couple this with what Graeber terms 'bullshit jobs' and no real national unity you have the beginnings of a disaster. Climate change will adversely affect the most population dense non-white shitholes, creating huge swarms of climate refugees which will only exacerbate our problems.
In all previous industrial revolutions, more jobs were created than lost; that is simply not the case here. In this fourth industrial revolution we find that the jobs being created are at the extremes of the skill spectrum: many high-paid abstract, complex jobs and many low-paid manual, routine jobs. The problem is that these routine jobs are the ones most suspectible to automization (middle class jobs seem to be at particular risk). So, a decline in current jobs, slow growth in new jobs and the collapse of the middle class can't be good. What's left is tons of service jobs (which are swallowed up by cheap minority labour) and complex abstract jobs (which are swallowed up by the elites). Naturally, this breeds resentment and doesn't lend itself well to our political religion of equality.

>> No.15954875

>>15954731
Nothing lasts forever anon, that was also mostly due to long standing ethnic feuds than economic reasons.

>> No.15954904

>>15954870
Next, we have to look at our upcoming economic and financial realities. The economics of nation-states piling on huge amounts of debt to fund the welfare state will only get worse and worse. At present we are witnessing the beginnings of this transformation, as the covic pandemic has acted as a sort of catalyst for the shift in labour force dynamics. One can reasonably expect that many more people will become slaves of the welfare state.
Public spending on the welfare state is funded by tax and debt. With the loss of jobs comes the loss of tax; couple this with the reality of globalization, i.e. the free flow of capital around the globe, one can begin to understand that funding public spending through tax is ever more difficult. For example, it's no secret that corporations and elites don't pay even a sliver of the tax that workers do. The gap between progressive income tax and corporate and capital gains tax is huge; furthermore, one can reduce their capital gains and corporate tax liabilities through certain tax and legal structures.
This, then, means that nation-states must, in the face of growing demand and discontent, fund their public spending out of debt. In the context of ever-falling tax income, this debt is simply unsustainable in the long-term, and an ineffective panacea in the short-term. Investors aren't stupid, either; why would they lend their capital to failing nation-states instead of the plethora of other worldwide opportunities? Studies show that there is a huge bias towards one's own nation-state, but even so: the writing is on the wall and nobody wants to be left holding the bags. The only rational choice for a failing nation-state is to inflate the money supply, but with the slowdown of the economy we're witnessing deflation that acts as a significant counterweight.
the tl;dr for this section is that individuals are losing faith in nation-states

>> No.15954915

>>15951560
imean its not wrong

>> No.15954917

>>15954904
>The only rational choice for a failing nation-state is to inflate the money supply,
Or simply raising taxes for richfags and taking 90% off inheritance if it's above a mil or so. (Also the Chinese approach to lend land instead of selling it is based) Do it somewhat globally among first world countries and they have no place to run to.

>> No.15954919

>>15953998
>THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT THE FRENCH REVOLUTION WAS YOU STUPID FUCKING PSEUD.
Hahaha, not really. At least point towards the glorious revolution next time to be 10% more accurate

>> No.15954929

>>15954904
Together with globalisation we've recently witnessed the birth of cryptocurrency, that is a decentralised, trustless currency. The implications of this are simply outstanding: one can transact quickly and efficiently peer-to-peer without the need for a trusted medium to verify the transaction. Yes, modern payments may seem 'instant' to you, but they are in fact credits, with the money 'floated' through many, many mediums before finally being debited. Plus, cryptocurrency is impossible to regulate; nation-states cannot steal it from you, like they do with traditional currency. If, as I suspect, nation-states gradually raise tax, the public will be ever more incentivized to transition to a crypto-currency based payment mechanism in order to avoid punitive and excessive tax. If, as I suspect, the 'makers' begin to weary of providing for the 'takers' in a bloated welfare state, then we'll see mass adoption of crypto-currency or some other method of transacting between individuals without any medium.
This next part is pure conjecture, but we could potentially see the fall and total collapse of nation-states. If such a thing occurs, the most likely outcome is for the rise of charter cities where the capital- and skill-rich elites flee to, abandoning the masses to their fate.
Regardless, anarcho hyper-capitalism is the most likely successor to our bastardized capitalism simply due to the fact that current trends point to its inevitable adoption.

>> No.15954933

There is no reason to think communism wouldn't work once we have enough resources to go around for everyone.

>> No.15954936
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15954936

>>15951526
Synthetic technocracy

>> No.15954944

>>15954933
>enough resources to go around for everyone
There's always been enough resources to go around, it's always been a question of how much.

>> No.15954945

>>15954037
the population becomes the slaves of predatory elites

>> No.15954955

>>15954917
Great in theory until you realise that the ony richfags being taxed will be those in high incomes. Capital-rich richfags will simply hide their assets, move them offshore to tax havens and threaten to withdraw their capital from national circulation, which will hurt the nation-state more than it would gain from taxing them higher. Of course, they could seize their real estate and other physical assets or introduce stricter capital controls, but that would merely serve as a more powerful catalyst in the transition to crypto-currency. The Chinese approach to lending land would never be accepted here; even there it's on a 99-year lease. Also, first-world countries won't coordinate to clamp down on worldwide tax havens, much as the French wish it were so. There are simply far too many powerful interest groups, particularly in the US and UK, for that to ever happen.

>> No.15954980

>>15951526
We no longer rely on capitalism, while life qualities and the human civilization grown significantly. The Net, with it grand vision, prove to be far more efficient on controlling the resource flow than the old, self-sufficient systems of decentralized economy. Money disappear, people work and gain now calculated by The Net. But it is a little hard to achive, if we consider the thirst for power of people too