/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15900294]

Would someone go to Hell because they can't understand the Christian God, thus making it harder for them to want to believe?

[Anonymous No.15900308]

according to the bible only the ones who received the message and chose to ignore it can go to hell.

[Anonymous No.15900324]

>>15900308
What does it take for one to have "received" the message? Do I need to read the entire Bible?

[Anonymous No.15900332]

>>15900294
this has precisely nothing to do with literature.
serious question, why do you not go to /his/ with this shit? It's as bad as twitter screenshot shit.

[Anonymous No.15900339]

>>15900324
i think it just means being aware of it

[Anonymous No.15900347]

>>15900294

Someone's got a lot of tacky crap on their desk!

[Anonymous No.15900361]

>>15900339
But you've only partially received the message if you haven't read the Bible.

[Anonymous No.15900377]

>>15900361
i think that's more than enough

[Anonymous No.15900387]

>>15900324
The Holy Spirit subjectively imbues your heart with a faith whose character justifies you before God. This only happens in the Elect. If you are not predestined by God to be saved through faith, you will never be able to comprehend or feel faith in Jesus in any meaningful way because the Holy Spirit will not illuminate you.

[Anonymous No.15900459]

>>15900294
Christianity is bullshit, anon. Hell and God are conditions of the heart.

[Anonymous No.15900573]

>>15900339
>>15900361
>>15900377
What if an islander's only contact with a Christian was some dipshit missionary who was a hypocritical and unappealing example of his religion? If God would damn such an islander for that, God would be an unjust idiot.

[Anonymous No.15900577]

>>15900459
This is the post of a reprobate who is not elect and who will burn in hell for eternity.

[Anonymous No.15900615]

>>15900577
Cope, pedo.

[Anonymous No.15900619]

>>15900573
i think the islander would have enough judgement to know the difference and act according to it

[Anonymous No.15900636]

>>15900615
Presbyterians aren't pedos.

>>15900573
That person was damned anyway then. If he were elect, he would find some way to faith in Christ. If not, he was predestined to hell. It is not contingent on circumstance but God's will. There I solved all your problems about mysterious island peoples.

[Anonymous No.15900644]

>>15900636
You're right. Presbyterians are cucks.

[Anonymous No.15900662]

>>15900573
God wouldn't damn you if the person delivering the message is incompetent or otherwise unable to effectively spread the Gospel, but with the caveat that he/she was living a virtuous life beforehand or is a child or otherwise know the difference between right and wrong. God is just. If someone spreads the Gospel in a way that's incoherent, it's not the recipients fault for not heeding it but at the same time they must live in accordance with natural law.

[Anonymous No.15900666]

>>15900636
I don't understand Calvinist thought. Why would a soul be predestined for eternal torture. It makes no sense and mental gymnastics is involved. Might as well cut out the middle man and not even have life in earth.

[Anonymous No.15900674]

>>15900666
Okay my get bothers me.

[Anonymous No.15900697]

Catholics teach that everyone is automatically damned unless they live long enough to go through the sacraments. How many babies die every second? Hell. How many children die prematurely with no real concept of religion? Hell. St Augustine believed that the human race was one damned mass of flesh.

[Anonymous No.15900706]

>>15900666
Every human, by virtue of original sin and personal sin, is destined for and deserves hell. God graciously saves a subset of people out of his mercy through election/predestination. We don't know the criteria or rationale for this, but whatever the reason, it is not based on people being "good" or receptive to faith or anything like that. It is not because they're better people. The reasons/rationale are not a part of revelation, save for the fact that those saved do not deserve it or are more deserving than others.

Whatever the reason, it is a good and just one because God is good and just. But those reasons are beyond human understanding until the last day.

At any rate, focusing on predestination to damnation misses the point. The good news is that some are saved from a fate that all deserve. You can decide to hear this news and be moralistically prideful and spiteful, but guess whether that makes you a likely candidate for election or reprobation?

[Anonymous No.15900716]

>>15900697
Catholics are retarded and Augustine believed in predestination and election, as did Jesus, Paul, and John Calvin.

[Anonymous No.15900730]

>>15900706
>Every human, by virtue of original sin and personal sin, is destined for and deserves hell. God graciously saves a subset of people out of his mercy through election/predestination.
Where can I read this in the Bible?

[Anonymous No.15900744]

>>15900716
Catholics believe in predestination, it's usually what they resort to when people ask too many questions rather than being at the forefront of their teachings

[Anonymous No.15900752]

>>15900730
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[Anonymous No.15900766]

>>15900744
Catholics claim to believe in predestination because it's what Augustine taught, and if they refute him, they are admitting to being Pelagian heretics, which they are. Instead they try to be Pelagian and Augustine by saying predestination and free will exist concurrently and this is a """"mystery"""" but the Bible does not teach free will. It teaches predestination. Period. This is why Pelagius was a heretic.

[Anonymous No.15900782]

>>15900730
>For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

>Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

>For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

>And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

>So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

>You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.


How many more do you need, breh?

[Anonymous No.15900790]

We can only hope

[Anonymous No.15900794]

>>15900294
Depends which Christian denomination.

[Anonymous No.15900822]

>>15900744
>>15900766
>Catholics claim to believe in predestination
No they don't. They have particular judgment after death and the final judgment, but predestination is a heresy. >>15900766 you need to look to Jansenism not Pelagianism. (Pelagius v Augustine was about whether progress or degeneracy are the course)

[Anonymous No.15900831]

>>15900822
Wrong.
>The Catholic Encyclopedia entry on predestination says: God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time, especially those that directly proceed from, or at least are influenced by, man's free will.

They believe in it, they just want to have it both ways.

[Anonymous No.15900835]

>>15900782
So believers in double-predestination would be somewhat confident that they are saved, right? Does the thought process go "I have sinned in my life, but I also see that I am fortunate enough to be a God-fearing Christian. I am saved." ?

[Anonymous No.15900856]

>>15900831
The catechism says specifically
>God predestines no one to go to hell;
and particular judgment after death is how they get around that. Predestination for heaven or hell is still a heresy, as it does not include freely chosen grace.

[Anonymous No.15900864]

>>15900294
No one can understand Him. To say so is to erroneously, and dangerously, place yourself in a position equal to Him.

[Anonymous No.15900875]

>>15900822
>Pelagius v Augustine was about whether progress or degeneracy are the course
You don't understand the Pelagian heresy at all. This is not surprising because you're brainwashed by the Catholic propaganda which recasts it as something it is not BECAUSE they eventually came to embrace Pelagianism in all its forms. Don't reply to me about this. You've already proven you don't understand it, so it's not worth discussing with you further.

>>15900835
There is, to some extent, the possibility that a person can be assured of their own salvation in some limited subjective way if they are very sure of their own faith and subjective experience of the Holy Spirit... but it's all very subjective. There are certain criteria listed in the Bible that explain evidence that a person MIGHT be saved. These include things like leading a righteous life and performing good works. Someone who is saved and undergone the process of justification will become an increasingly sanctified person over the course of their life.

I'd recommend you read about it because Calvinism is more about the question you're asking, not election itself (which is from the Bible)

>>15900856
Yes I'm aware they have it both ways. I don't feel like spinning wheels with a Catholic on this point because your religion is designed to do exactly that. Endless contradictory beliefs and postmodern reasoning. I don't care. I used to be a Catholic and stopped for this very reason.

>The Catholic Catechism says, "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace."

[Anonymous No.15900932]

>>15900875
>You don't understand the Pelagian heresy at all. This is not surprising because you're brainwashed by the Catholic propaganda which recasts it as something it is not BECAUSE they eventually came to embrace Pelagianism in all its forms. Don't reply to me about this. You've already proven you don't understand it, so it's not worth discussing with you further
Pelagianism was not embraced by the Catholic church in all its forms. This is easily seen by the fact that Catholics still believe in original sin, still believe in infant baptism, and the fact they believe that grace is at the source of moral acts, all of which are directly opposed to Pelagianism.
>>15900875
>Yes I'm aware they have it both ways. I don't feel like spinning wheels with a Catholic
No. You seemed utterly unaware that predestination as OP is talking about (regarding Hell) is specifically spoken against in their foundational texts, and or which heresy it falls under. People don't have to be Catholic to prove you ignorant and wrong, they just have to be capable of reading history or doing basic research. The fact you were a Catholic makes your accusation that they are all brainwashed all the more bizarre and grandiose.

[Anonymous No.15900972]

>>15900932
By asserting that Pelagius did not believe in infant baptism, you've proven yourself to be completely ignorant of the topic completely. Please stop engaging with me. I truly do not have an interest in talking to you.

As for the predestination thing, you're continuing to play words games that I want no part of. There is no fruit to this discussion. Your warped Catholic mind won't allow it. I'm not interested in the semantics of predestination; that was my point. Just go away. You haven't proved anything at all. I'm not even clear what you BELIEVE you're asserting. But I also don't care. You don't strike me as an intelligent person. That's the honest truth.

[Anonymous No.15900992]

>>15900972
It's literally on the wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagius
>Pelagianism was condemned at the Council of Carthage in 418.[6] Augustine, shocked that Pelagius and Celestius were not denounced as heretics, had called the Council of Carthage in 418 and stated nine beliefs of the Church that Pelagianism denied:

> Death came from sin, not man's physical nature.
> Infants must be baptized to be cleansed from original sin.
> Justifying grace covers past sins and helps avoid future sins.
> The grace of Christ imparts strength and will to act out God's commandments.
> No good works can come without God's grace.
> We confess we are sinners because it is true, not from humility.
> The saints ask for forgiveness for their own sins.
> The saints also confess to be sinners because they are.
> Children dying without baptism are excluded from both the kingdom of heaven and eternal life.

Are you just throwing around accusations like a schizoid or something?

[Anonymous No.15901011]

>>15900992
Yeah so you're going off of a Wikipedia article. That's your source. About what I thought. I'm almost tempted to get into it with you, but you've already proven to be such a pig ass about all this I don't care. Think whatever you want. I've read entire books on this topic.

I'll tell you what. If you can explain to me what Pelagius thought about infant baptism in a remotely accurate way via something other than Wikipedia, I'll respond to you again.

If not, kys.

[Anonymous No.15901024]

>>15900972
>Pelagius did not believe in infant baptism
He didn't believe in it as a cleansing for original sin. Which is what Catholics and Augustine did. Pelagius thought original sin was non-transmissible, and thought that adult baptism only cleansed people of sins they had personally committed. Anyone can check this up. Apart from you apparently since you decided to call me ignorant while ignoring basic fact yourself.
>>15900972
>the predestination thing, you're continuing to play words games that I want no part of. There is no fruit to this discussion. Your warped Catholic mind won't allow it. I'm not interested in the semantics of predestination; that was my point. Just go away. You haven't
OP was specifically asking about Hell. The Catholic catechism specifically says that God does not predestine anyone for hell. It's not a word game. The kind of predestination relevant to this thread is about whether and how God sends you to hell or not. There are other sects which do say God predestined some people for hell, but Catholicism is not one of them.

[Anonymous No.15901026]

>>15901011
>I got BTFO'd and I need to find an out to make me not look retarded.

There's a reason I left the numbered hyperlink in there. Also real Christian of you to go tell e to go kill myself.

[Anonymous No.15901042]

>>15901026
How exactly did you btfo him, anon? You didn't answer the question.

[Anonymous No.15901047]

Umm... Catholic bros...?

>Pelagius (c.AD 354 – 418) was a theologian who advocated free will and asceticism. He was accused by Augustine of Hippo and others of denying the need for divine aid in performing good works.

Why are we for free will if Pelagius was and he was denounced???

[Anonymous No.15901054]

>>15901042
Why would I want him to respond to me again?

>>15901047
See >>15900992

[Anonymous No.15901059]

>>15901047
Catholics believe you do good works with the grace of God. Pelagianism believe you do good works because you're choosing to be good. Basically Catholics believe that good can't happen without God's grace partially or wholly possessing you. Pelagians thought this sounded pagan.

[Anonymous No.15901061]

>>15901047
>>15901054
Also I hope you realize that there are more atheists and irreligious people on /lit/ than there are people of a Christian persuasion (regardless of which sect). The sad thing is even they are more knowledgeable of the Bible than you 9/10.

[Anonymous No.15901076]

Catholics are always really bitter and pathetic people. It's kind of true what the Calvinist said. They just spin their wheels endlessly because their gay religion has tons of ambiguous and contradictory statements. And they know this and it makes them feel insecure and uneasy, which is why they lash out for "not getting it".

But it's not that others "don't get it". It's that we see it for what it is (ambiguous/contradictory) and call it what it is. You can't call someone stupid because they won't indulge your cognitive dissonance. That's called being a well adjusted person.

[Anonymous No.15901087]

>>15901076
The Calvinist claims to be an exCatholic so I guess you're blaming him calling other people stupid and telling them to kill themselves and spinning his wheels on his upbringing and not on his current faith?

[Anonymous No.15901109]

>>15901087
see even this post made no real sense. it's just word vomit. it's tiring.

fortunately i'm not the only one who feels this way

[Anonymous No.15901126]

>>15901109
It's not a very hard post to parse.

[Anonymous No.15901135]

>>15901126
keep going man you've almost convinced me to be catholic. maybe one more post. your evangelism is excellent.

[Anonymous No.15901150]

>>15901135
I'm not trying to convince you to be Catholic. I don't know where you got that from.

[Anonymous No.15901169]

>>15900387
Yes, so a horrible pedophile rapist who in prison finds Jesus and is then forgiven goes to heaven, but a great scientist and scholar or a social worker who has helped and protected countless children will go to hell.

Because christianity is an amoral pleb religion.

[Anonymous No.15901173]

>>15900577
>This is the post of a reprobate who is not elect and who will burn in hell for eternity.
This does not bother you? Thinking of your fellow man in pain and agony?

[Anonymous No.15901246]

>>15900294
You die you die. There's nothing more.

[Anonymous No.15901409]

>>15901173
He's a Christian. His default mode of existence is hatred and a tendency towards sadistic torture. It's why he needs powerful institutions to force him to be generous and spiritual.

[Anonymous No.15901451]

>>15900294
First post got it. If a person lives out their life in total ignorance of God through no fault of their own they get sent to purgatory for cleansing if they lived a virtuous life.

[Anonymous No.15901468]

>>15900619
>>15900636
They can act decently but that missionary might disgust them enough that they could be good without needing to believe in Christ. And children raped by infiltrators smearing the idea of Catholic priests do often end up atheists, through no real fault of their own. You guys are nutjobs if you think the islander or those sexually abused children would deserve damnation.

>>15900662
Good explanation.

[Anonymous No.15901874]

>>15900308
are missionaries just dooming people to an eternity of hell?

[Anonymous No.15901879]

>>15900706
didn’t jesus die so i wouldn’t have original sin?
what the fuck was the point of his death if i’m going to hell anyways

[Anonymous No.15902820]

>>15901451
Where does the bible say that

[Anonymous No.15902824]

>>15901409
The irony in this post is truly palpable.

[Anonymous No.15902830]

>>15901468
What are you even talking about? People go to hell because they're Catholic, not because the Satano-catholic didn't do a good enough job spreading his Satanism.

[Anonymous No.15902843]

>>15901169
>Because christianity is an amoral pleb religion.
That would be Catholicism. As evidenced by the ongoing justification of child rape. Even Francis to this day is promoting and protecting known pedophiles.

>>15901173
Wherever a person goes, it's where God wanted, and God is perfectly good. If you fail to see this fact and derive hatred from God's will... then the only explanation is that you hate God and goodness.