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15890351 No.15890351 [Reply] [Original]

If you would not let random people off the street operate on a person or steer a ship then why should you let them decide the country's fate?

>> No.15890391

Because I don't want to show my power level if I can't win completely.

>> No.15890408

>>15890351
Because you don't know what's good for me better than I do.
That's the theory anyways, but I'm totally down for some platonic fascism, as long as the criteria for deciding who has voting rights is unbiased.

>> No.15890501

>>15890351
>you would not let random people off the street operate on a person or steer a ship
Yeah you would.

>> No.15890519

>>15890501
So if someome were dying right in front of you then you would walk up to some random guy and say "operate?"

>> No.15890520

>>15890408
Me too as long as the criteria is that I decide

>> No.15890529

>>15890351
The supreme government form would be a Stratocratic Republic a la Starship Troopers except in nation-states with a Third Positionist ethos

>> No.15890534

>>15890519
if somebody walked up and confidently said he knew what to do, I would let him proceed. Because I have trust in my fellow man, and that's what democracy is. Thank you.

>> No.15890547

there needs to be more restrictions on democracy. if you cant answer simple, basic questions on Candidate X or Issue Y you shouldnt be allowed to vote.
force every single candidate to write a short blurb on what they deem to be their main focal point and policy proposals
>im against abortion if it's past X week
then when people vote for Candidate X, they have to choose from a multiple choice selection that aligns the Candidate with his stated blurbs. if you get it wrong, your vote doesnt count.
start it off extremely stupid simple. itll be a good run if we can shave off just 5% of voters.
>but the poors! and the minorities! and the "who gives a shits!"
fuck 'em. in fact, let's bring back monarchy.

>> No.15890552

>>15890547
>>but the poors! and the minorities! and the "who gives a shits!"
>fuck 'em
absolutely based

>> No.15890554

>>15890547
Also, voting should be mandated by law. Either you vote or you get fined like the aussies do it.

>> No.15890572

>>15890519
Bad analogy.

>> No.15890586

>>15890572
That is the analogy that Socrates gives in Statesman though. Democracy would be having everyone in the nation vote on medicine and treatment and then choosing a random guy to operate following those laws.

>> No.15890603

Random people will never decide even a pinch of country's fate, so it's an empty question.

>> No.15890608

>>15890586
Maybe if the nation was full of complete retards.

>> No.15890621

>>15890608
That is what democracy is though. Politics is as important a science as medicine is, if not more.

>> No.15890623

>>15890534
I love you, anon.

>> No.15890644

>>15890586
Bad analogy.

>> No.15890667

>>15890554
nah, i dont think so. i would prefer a world where less people voted. mandating people to vote will just force people who arent interested to go through the motions to vote. its an incentive based around "not getting fined" vs "i kinda care."
an employee who actually gives a shit about their job is a much better employee than someone who's doing just enough to not get fired.

>> No.15890683

>>15890351
Because I'd rather live in an Athens that is ultimately doomed to fall to Philip than a Sparta that is ultimately doomed to the exact same fate. At least the next superpower will recognize my country's cultural, scientific, and artistic contributions to the world and send its best to be educated by my future generations.

Athens was *radically* democratic, and it did as well as any - and better than most - of its contemporaries.

>> No.15890709

>>15890534
read the republic. democracy is for fags, and if you think that mere voting makes a system a democracy your a good propagandee that would make the likes of hitler very proud. you weak buffoon

>> No.15890712

>>15890621
Democracy only equals insanity more than 50% of the voting population is insane. In an educated society they would democratically choose a fucking doctor.

>> No.15890719

>>15890644
So you're saying you're smarter than Socrates? When does your philisophical treatise come out?

>> No.15890730

>>15890712
You need to keep in mind, though, that in the Athens that Socrates, the vast majority of civic positions were decided by lot and not by vote.

>> No.15890737

>>15890351
Reminder to start and stop with the Greeks

>> No.15890753

>>15890586
Ancient greek cities actually did elect actual random people to serve at various positions. Today the analogue of this is jury duty, but it is pretty limited.

>> No.15890757

>>15890730
To follow up on this point, the Athenians would have considered rule by elected officials to be *oligarchic* and almost antithetical to democracy.

>> No.15890779

>>15890683
>>15890753
>>15890757
Best books on radical Athenian democracy and how it actually functioned?

>> No.15890795

>>15890779
THE REPUBLIC RETARD

>> No.15890813

>>15890795
Rude, I meant something like a secondary work of scholarship.

>> No.15890824

>>15890719
>When does your philisophical treatise come out?
When does his?

>> No.15890826

>>15890813
https://athenaeumreview.org/review/the-best-books-on-athenian-democracy/

>> No.15890828

>>15890351
How often is the crowd as a plurality wrong in Who Wants to be a Millionaire?

>> No.15890846

>>15890826
Thank you! Have you read any of these?

>> No.15890850

>>15890828
I don't know. I don't watch that. Often?

>> No.15891358

>>15890850
It's a super rare event. Contestants are allowed to ask the audience for their opinion on the trivia when they're having trouble. It stands to reason that the aggregate opinion of the crowd would out perform most of the contestants given their reliability in tough spots.

>> No.15891433

>>15891358
Can't the audience just use their phones?

>> No.15891478

>>15891433
They were effective long before smart phone use was wide spread. It all works out so long as there's enough smart people to balance out the ignorant even split of the dumb people.
Tfw clocking myself as a 90s kid accidentally.

>> No.15891603

>>15890520
Are you so childish that you can't admit when someone knows better than you?

>> No.15891622

>>15891603
My life would be so much better if we lived in the Republic society. I sure as Hell wouldn't be the king but I woild be a guardian at least and have been given a proper upbringing. My parents would have been executed long ago. No doubt about that.

>> No.15891631
File: 2.77 MB, 1027x916, thankyouscience.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15891631

>>15890586
>scientists and scholars tell you what to believe
>everyone votes for what the scientists and scholars tell them
>random guy aligns with the scientific and scholarly position
>scientific and scholarly position tends towards being politicized, farcical, and incestuous
Control the priests, and you control their followers. Just make sure to "ask your doctor" before voting in 2020.

>> No.15891643

>>15891603
I can't trust someone to abandon their ego and do their best to achieve objectivity and justice.

>> No.15891672

Because I trust the "experts" even less because of their loyalties. Not nearly so much room for opportunism in those other occupations

>> No.15891736

>>15890644
You mean bad system ;)

>> No.15891747

>>15891736
Democracy is the only system with a chance of working.

>> No.15891777
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15891777

>>15891747
hahahahahahahaha hahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>> No.15891816

No science works democratically. No scence would ever work if the opinion of the expert and the layman are treated alike, and the interpretations are placed over the facts. Democracy is the most fucking stupid system ever, and every person advocating for democracy is a dumb stupid retard or a woman.

>> No.15891824
File: 78 KB, 800x814, bust of Socrates.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15891824

>>15890351
I cannot imagine the sublime beauty of his face, his features, as in all geniuses the "great men"; and furthermore as derivative of the face of modest wisdom, the stayed conduct of his form.

I love him so much, I have tears in my eyes.

>> No.15891842

>>15891816
Non-sequitur.

>> No.15891847

>>15891842
Science does not work democratically and neither does the science of ruling a nation. I fail to see where he is wrong.

>> No.15891856
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15891856

>>15891842
hi babe. wanna fuck?

>> No.15891915

>>15891847
A nation should be run for the benefit of its citizenry. If you leave it up to elite 'technocrats' they will inevitably govern to advance only their own interests. As we have seen in the US in the past few decades.

>> No.15891924

>>15891915
Yes, Plato talks about tyranmies quite well. In his works, the Philospher king and class would be different because they would have no private property or money to power their greed.

>> No.15892363

>>15890547
Analytical understanding of an issue does not mean that one possesses the will to act and the stamina to navigate a nation against adversity.

It might be important, but it is secondary and not sufficient. You can hire such skills. You cannot hire willpower.

>> No.15892404
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15892404

>>15891824

>> No.15892407

>>15890547
Yes. An elective technocratic libertarian minarchist monarchy.

>> No.15892434
File: 183 KB, 671x715, 1594556848692.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15892434

>>15890351
>Loosen voting restrictions
>Utilize mass media tools and technologies
>Plebs think and vote how you want and middle class no longer has influence

Simple as.

>> No.15893120

>>15892434
>anime image
>absolutely retarded post
YIKES!

>> No.15893142
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15893142

>>15892407

>> No.15893199

>>15890351
because they're threatening to kill me if they don't get a say and there are so many of them

>> No.15893216

>>15890547
>>but the poors! and the minorities! and the "who gives a shits!"
>fuck 'em

very cringe

>> No.15893275

>>15891847
Of course science is democratic, they just call it peer review. The difference is that they get to select their citizenry, but as more and more PhDs get awarded, the scientific and the general citizenry get closer together.

>> No.15893290

>>15890408
When people are putting things up their arses and killing their children, I think it's safe to say that I know better than them what they should be doing with their own body.

>> No.15893329

>>15891915
>Thinking that technocrats have a good understanding of philosophy and aren't just acting on a two thousand year old blood feud.

>> No.15893770

>>15892363
i touched upon this in a previous post
>nah, i dont think so. i would prefer a world where less people voted. mandating people to vote will just force people who arent interested to go through the motions to vote. its an incentive based around "not getting fined" vs "i kinda care."
>an employee who actually gives a shit about their job is a much better employee than someone who's doing just enough to not get fired.
if you cant be arsed to learn some basic information about the candidates or issues, and if you cant be arsed to go through some basic hoops to vote, then you dont vote.
>and here is the world's smallest violin, played by the world's smallest green, little frog

>> No.15893786

>>15892404
):

I found that pic.

>> No.15893887

>>15890408
>Because you don't know what's good for me better than I do.
Speak for yourself. I certainly know more than some junky retard who wants some more welfare cash.

>> No.15893902

>>15890547
Heinlein had a good thing going on. In ST you had to do federal service (not necessarily in the military) for 2 years and be well educated to become a citizen and be allowed to vote. The key factor here is that you should participate in society and know more about it before being granted the privilege of changing it.

>> No.15894571

One can argue about who gets to make policy decisions and oversee enforcement but without having a very clear and detailed vision on what the foundational values and the telos of society is, how can you choose who should manage it?

>> No.15894624

Democracy is flawed, but every other system is far more susceptible to corruption.

>> No.15894694

In every modern country the power belongs to a very small circle of aristocracy. But if they ask the opinions of nation (or at least pretend to do so), then it's better for the nation than if they had no such pretense.

>> No.15894726

>>15890351
>why should you let them decide the country's fate?
Spoiler: we don't.

>> No.15894757

>>15894694
> ...it's better for the nation than if they had no such pretense.
The ruling elite, presumably, uses sociological tools to aid in their decision making. Sociology requires surveys and opinion polls to work. Hence, elections.

Maybe in the future they'll ditch "democracy" for a more direct data collection regime though e.g., Facebook or whatever. But that time is not yet now.

>> No.15894905

>>15894694
Is that the Iron Law of Oligarchy?

>> No.15894963

>>15890712
In most countries only 30% or so of the electorate (so less than 25% of the population) decides most elections.