/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15882312]

Is there any way to escape the spectacle?

[Anonymous No.15882323]

>>15882312
the door remains open

[Anonymous No.15882337]

>>15882312
Debord has solutions that he saw as creating situations that exist outside the spectacle, hence the name the Situationists. Baudrillard, a theorist who regularly references DeBord, sees the spectacle as having gone so far as to have transformed into an inescapable, new form of reality. He would say you can’t escape, that any attempt to escape will only result in creating more spectacle. Or in Baudrillard’s terms, an attempt to establish a non Spectacular reality will only result in a proliferation of simulacra

[Anonymous No.15882350]

[Anonymous No.15882357]

>>15882312
Chastity and Femdom, unironically

[Anonymous No.15882381]

>>15882312
Start an onlyfans. Become the last man and ubermensch of the last city with electricity.
https://youtu.be/Snibt3CNqBA

[Anonymous No.15882382]

>>15882357
You’re retarded, that’s more spectacle.

[Anonymous No.15882385]

>>15882381

[Anonymous No.15882394]

>>15882350
>atop
it's 'beneath'

[Anonymous No.15882432]

>>15882337
Then would the solution be to escape to a simalacrum as close as possible to reality?

[Anonymous No.15882447]

>>15882432
No.

[Anonymous No.15882448]

>>15882337
“A fire broke out backstage in a theatre. The clown came out to warn the public; they thought it was a joke and applauded. He repeated it; the acclaim was even greater. I think that's just how the world will come to an end: to general applause from wits who believe it's a joke.”

[Anonymous No.15882455]

>>15882394

[Anonymous No.15882462]

>>15882312
>>15882337
>>15882382
>>15882432
>>15882447
>>15882448
Seduction.

[Anonymous No.15882466]

>>15882455
didn't laugh

[Anonymous No.15882472]

>>15882432
The whole point is you will never get to reality
>>15882448
Kierkeggard, right? I gotta go back and reread him one day, he’s where I started.

[Anonymous No.15882483]

>>15882462
The perfect crime is the seduction of the world from the very beginning. But like any other crime it was not perfect, it left behind its traces

[Anonymous No.15882486]

>>15882312
Spectacle isn't real

[Anonymous No.15882495]

>>15882462
Based anon who actually read baudrillard. We will escape the spectacle by creating harsh, initiatory rules. The spectacle cannot defeat seduction.

[Anonymous No.15882506]

>>15882382
>>15882472
>Some writers in their manner and stance intentionally provoke challenge and criticism from their readers. Others just invite you to think. Baudrillard's hyperprose demands only that you grunt wide-eyed or bewildered assent. He yearns to have intellectual influence, but must fend off any serious analysis of his own writing, remaining free to leap from one bombastic assertion to the next, no matter how brazen. Your place is simply to buy his books, adopt his jargon, and drop his name wherever possible.

[Anonymous No.15882509]

>>15882337
what if overproduction of spectacles provokes a crisis in the spectacle

[Anonymous No.15882514]

>>15882495
The only one who can has seduce has already been seduced. Seduction isn’t a game of defeat, it’s something that always is.

[Anonymous No.15882522]

>>15882466
Because you didn't get it retard.
>>15882448

[Anonymous No.15882533]

>>15882506
Dude imagine being so filtered by the French you make a whole book to rag on them.
>>15882509
You have the 21st century lol just look around you

[Anonymous No.15882535]

>>15882337
Well, yes, but to be more precise, it is because fashion can absorb radicalism and anti-fashion, supplant it with its model, and neutralize it. Anti-fashion can even be effected as a trend in fashion, where everybody then consumes anti-fashion.

[Anonymous No.15882538]

>>15882312
What is up with Marxists being obsessed either with production or with consumption? Are they neurotic motherfuckers or what? Chill the fuck out, you're at a movie, enjoy yourself. It's not worth waxing philosophical over.

[Anonymous No.15882549]

>>15882535
For sure, films like the Joker are another great example of that. There’s an unending amount of things we could bring up to demonstrate this

[Anonymous No.15882569]

>>15882514
I... know. I am saying the spectacle will never achieve the perfect crime because of seduction, because it is always present, because nothing functions socially, but symbolically.

[Anonymous No.15882577]

>>15882538
Based. Enjoy the show.
https://youtu.be/eTnVVKToe5I

[Anonymous No.15882603]

>>15882506
Notice how there is not one argument in that paragraph.

[Anonymous No.15882605]

>>15882337
Spectacle is not the same thing as simulation.

[Anonymous No.15882642]

>>15882472
I'm not saying that you flee from simulacra, but you embrace it fully and you try and create your own reality with what you are given.

>>15882447
Pic related

[Anonymous No.15882653]

>>15882312
Maybe.
Stop consuming any media at all, including and especially the news.
Spend as little time as possible on the computer.
Spend as much time as possible with people you know in person.
You will start to feel normal after a while.

[Anonymous No.15882659]

>>15882569
>nothing functions socially, but symbolically
What? The symbolic is what we’re removed from by the semiotic conversion of values; the lack of ambivalence in our exchanges prevents them from reaching the symbolic register. The spectacle (and other things) has seduced our culture into empty forms that dance around a central nihilism of value. Seduction also isn’t the perfect crime, the seduction of the world is the perfect crime.
>>15882605
Never said it was
>>15882642
You cant create reality, only simulacra

[Anonymous No.15882664]

Getting high and walking down random streets or something

[Anonymous No.15882670]

>>15882486
This. Social relations don't exist. "Society" is just a meme

[Anonymous No.15882681]

>>15882659
>You can't create reality, only simulacra.
Then why not create a simulacra of reality. Become your own God.

[Anonymous No.15882695]

>>15882681
Yeah, go for it. Willing play into the irony of the object triumphing over the subject, that is actually a powerful movr

[Anonymous No.15882698]

>>15882312
why would you want to?

[Anonymous No.15882709]

>>15882350
such a beautiful and intelligent man

[Anonymous No.15882739]

>>15882538
>What is up with Marxists being obsessed either with production
>What is up with Marxists being obsessed over the whole point of their ideology

[Anonymous No.15882740]

>>15882659
You cannot remove the symbolic. This is Baudrillard 101. The perfect crime is the seduction of the world, but that was not the sense I was using it. The perfect crime is the crime of perfection, of the full integrality and unification of the world and the loss of the dual form, the full destruction of otherness. And to think I complimented you earlier...

[Anonymous No.15882744]

>>15882312
Simply wait, it will end sooner rather than later at this point in the game.

[Anonymous No.15882763]

>>15882739
>What is up with people who think like this
There, I resolved your obvious confusion for you.

[Anonymous No.15882780]

>>15882659
>Never said it was
No, but most Baudrillard posts itt implicitly conflate the two. And all of this talk about creating, escaping, destroying, or establishing spectacle and/or simulation is totally foreign to Baudrillard. None of that is his concern and it is all productivist jargon.

[Anonymous No.15882788]

>>15882740
Didn’t say you remove it, see pic related for an explanation. A large part of Baudrillard’s work is concerned with how we’ve removed ourselves from symbolic exchange, I’ll post another section that’s relevant shortly.

[Anonymous No.15882801]

>>15882763
See the base and superstructure, art and media is inherently a reflection of the values of the ruling class.

[Anonymous No.15882833]

>>15882740
Also no need to be rude, if I’m wrong about Baudrillard I legitimately want you to show me how, I really love his work. The last sentence of the first paragraph and the last paragraph show how his thought developed from the earlier quote I posted. This is from a later text
>>15882780
It is and it isn’t. Fatal strategies talks heavily about the idea of what we can do in the world as written By Baudrillard. The main reason I brought him up is because how debord, and 1968 influenced Baudrillard. I think it was in the transparency of evil where Baudrillard describes some machines as offering the spectacle of thought on display

[Anonymous No.15882838]

>>15882801
>creations are related to their creators
Whoa.

[Anonymous No.15882843]

>>15882740
Huh it lost my second pic

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.15882844]

>>15882312
Yeah

[Anonymous No.15882848]

>>15882838
More like
>creations are related to their sponsors
This is not to say you should never enjoy art or media, but there is always some sort of message embedded in them.

[Anonymous No.15882860]

Dubois, Wyoming

[Anonymous No.15882867]

>>15882848
There's a message in everything if you look (read: create) hard enough.

[Anonymous No.15882918]

[APPLAUSE]
Tom: "Hi, welcome to the show, my name's Dr. Tom Mayo and I'm here with my good friend Janice"
Janice: "Hi Tom, Hi everybody!"
(Jannice waves to the crowd)
[APPLAUSE]
(Janice laughs at the crowd's applause)
Tom: "Welcome to the show Janice! What are we going to be doing today for these fine people?"
Janice: "Today Tom, we're gonna being looking at 2 brand new redpills. I'm gonna take them right here on stage and I'm gonna let you know how I feel!"
[APPLAUSE]
Tom: "Hahahaha alright! Let's do it!
(Tom addresses audience)
Tom: "These things are everywhere! Now Janice if you could please, would you mind telling our audience which redpills you'll be taking today?"
Janice: "Sure Tom. Today I'm going to be taking two pills from newest vintage from Redpills [TM], hahaha"
Tom: "What's so funny Janice?"
Janice: "Do you follow Eron Zusk on facebook?"
[Audience laughter]
Tom: "Yes I do!"
Janice: "I love that guy. Someone needs to take his twitter away, but I love him"
[Audience laughter]
Tom: "You've got that right Janice, I wonder if he's watching the show right now? He'd be like "Redpills, took them long enough!""
[Audience laughter]
Tom: "OK Eron, here we go, our first redpill!"
Janice: "This is: "Coronavirus is a fart hurricane.""
[Audience laughter]
Tom: "Hey nobody said this would be civilized."
[Audience laughter]
Janice: "And the other- Ooh this is kind of a long one, it says: "typing how many people die each year from starvation" into google then dividing that number by 365. Wow these are spicy!"
[Audience laughter]
Tom: "Some great redpills for us here Janice! But we've all seen the commercials."
Janice: "Yes we have"
Tom: "You aren't going to take these redpills without heavy drink are you Janice?"
Janice: "Of course not Tom and when we come back from these quick messages I'm going to show you what hard liquor I've picked up for today's show."
[AUDIENCE APPLAUSE]
Tom: "Alright we'll be right back!!!"

[Anonymous No.15882936]

>>15882918
How retarded do you have to be to starve to death in 2020?

[Anonymous No.15882946]

>>15882535
yea they called it recuperation and it looks like there isnt anything the spectacle cant recuperate

[Anonymous No.15882967]

>>15882833
>Fatal strategies talks heavily about the idea of what we can do in the world as written By Baudrillard.
Well not only does he never explicitly name any particular thing that one can or should do, the very idea that one can or should do something, personally or politically, about simulation (in the same way that one should do something about poverty) should be read, I think, completely ironically. It's in the name: "fatal strategy," a contradiction, and this is the direction his thought tended in up until his death when only major events like 9/11 made him think once again that, if anything, simulation in some places undoes itself. He offers no program, lifestyle, or aesthetic.
>The main reason I brought him up is because how debord, and 1968 influenced Baudrillard
May 1968 made a big impression on him as he would always admit but tempting as it is, I don't think Debord and Situationism had any lasting effect on his work. By his first books he had already departed from them and thereafter kept his distance and if he brought them up, it was critically. You can find some more candid thoughts on this in his interview book Fragments. There are some other scattered interviews where he explicitly discusses Debord and Situationism.

[Anonymous No.15882970]

>>15882642
Derrida got so triggered by that question, he's such a fucking faggot. He deliberately makes no sense and subverts culture, then gets mad at you for asking him to comprehensively explain himself.

[Anonymous No.15883023]

>>15882967
What? Baudrillard’s use of the term fatal is tied to its meaning as destiny, as fate. In fatal strategies, one of his main ideas is moving from what he call banal strategies (triumph of subject over object) to the fatal (the subject recognizes the triumph of the object.
His writings on 9/11 boil down to his use of impossible exchange, and his views on death. The power of 9/11 was its fundamental inability to be absorbed by the system.
While I definitely agree that he quickly blows past debord, anyone who likes debord will probably be into Baudrillard. A lot of the people that influence Baudrillard he goes flying past, but regularly makes little nods to, like Nietzsche, Bataille and Callois

[Anonymous No.15883031]

>>15883023
>>15882967
Forgot to rotate my picture sorry

[Anonymous No.15883112]

>>15882936
Very retarded to be born where food>bootstraps. Those dumb heads.

[Anonymous No.15883129]

That'll be 13.50. Would you like Real Butter TM with that?
Now take and seat and wait for the spectacle to end.

[Anonymous No.15883159]

>>15882936
I highly doubt it's within their control, but of course you're probably too stupid to realize this

[Anonymous No.15883169]

We're not here to answer cuntish questions.

[Anonymous No.15883182]

>>15883112
>>15883159
If these are people who were born to die, I don't see why that would be a "redpill."

[Anonymous No.15883681]

>one guy posting pics from different Baudrillard books to make points
>anons immediately stop responding
Peak /lit/

[Anonymous No.15883864]

>>15883023
>Baudrillard
>goes flying past Nietzsche
"no"

[Anonymous No.15883874]

>>15883023
what is real according to Baudrillard?

[Anonymous No.15883963]

>>15883864
I must've missed the book where Nietzsche looks at the impact of mass-media technology on transvaluation
>>15883874
As a result of where we are in time, we can never know. Things like the death of religion and the proliferation of technology have put us in a place where we know what we're doing isn't real, but we have no other way to do it.

[Anonymous No.15884099]

>>15883963
In what way does examining modern tech mean that Baudrillard flew past him? Nietzsche evaluated the media of his time (same basic principles were at work) and dealt with the same philosophical issues of truth and meaning.

[Anonymous No.15884118]

whatever you do try to speak about it without full grasp and humanity or you'll sound like a teenager who "sees the real world" and "understands how the world runs"

[Anonymous No.15884209]

>>15882844
got a pdf or epub of this?

[Anonymous No.15885092]

>>15883963
what's the simulation according to Baudrillard?

[Anonymous No.15885127]

>>15882709
more like fat and retarded man

[Anonymous No.15885324]

>>15882350
dresses like a gigantic child

[Anonymous No.15885426]

What does Baudrillard means by seduction?

[Anonymous No.15885617]

>>15885324
>>15885127
>>15882709

You clearly belong to the intellectual elites, can you plz recommend me a outfit which increases my IQ by at least 20 points?

[Anonymous No.15885634]

>>15882312
yes, by submitting to liberal democracy and capitalist ideology.

[Anonymous No.15886002]

>>15885092
A big part of his ideas is talking about simulation as a cultural process rather than something like the film The Matrix. An example being my country’s infamous education system, where people shell out tens of thousands of dollars for an “education” after high school. Meanwhile, one of my internships was proofreading company wide emails by an “educated” person. Or the amount of people who’s only exposure to sex is porn, so they recreate porn rather than having sex. Fashion is an example that pops up in his early work, having once been something tied to social and cultural institutions, now you can buy the clothes of a given social station without actually being it. You can dress like a woman in all ways, be socially accepted as a woman, but still be a man.

[Anonymous No.15886022]

"reality" is a simulacrum; requiring distinction of what we think is real and what isn't.

[Anonymous No.15886024]

What spectacle?

[Anonymous No.15886073]

>>15886024
A simple explanation is that it’s how our entire lives are now lived through things like social media, our lives are turned into a spectacle, rather than consisting of lived experience

[Anonymous No.15886082]

>>15886073
Interesting, but boring.

[Anonymous No.15886093]

>>15886002
>now you can buy the clothes of a given social station without actually being it.
FUUUUCCCK
how should i escape this? i use to feel guilty all the time when i was into fashion

[Anonymous No.15886109]

>>15886093
Dunno man, personally I buy clothes at thrift stores so my money doesn’t support third world child slave labor. But with covid that might be an impossibility. There’s no actual way to escape these things the way you want to escape them. You’re stuck in it, without recourse to a different way of life.

[Anonymous No.15886113]

Surely there was never anything other than the spectacle though? You're just talking about the barrier between perception and reality at the end of the day, that not even language nor mathematics can breach. It's just the contemporary permutation of an age-old phenomenon as it manifests in our particular culture.

[Anonymous No.15886129]

>>15886113
Yea and no, there was always cultural mediation between humans and the world they exist in, it’s impossible to live otherwise. There’s a book (not sure which off the top of my head at 8:30am) where Baudrillard talks about reality as destiny+action. A large part of what made up reality and cultural truth in the past was illusory. With technology, and the harsh glow of the Information Age we’ve removed illusion, we’ve removed destiny. All we have is action with no goal.

[Anonymous No.15886136]

>>15882664
P S Y C H O G E O G R A P H Y

[Anonymous No.15886139]

>>15886109
so the lack of escape from the simulation was the reason behind Baudrillard's pessimism?

[Anonymous No.15886159]

>>15886139
His works aren’t pessimistic in tone, he just never posits any concept of escape. He has a book called Fatal Strategies where he talks about things we can do that play with the world as he sees it, and a collection of lectures in a book called Radical Alterity that covers more of that. All the people I’ve seen that consider him a pessimist are people that can’t handle the fact that sitting around, watching tv and posting on Instagram are fucking stupid.

[Anonymous No.15886246]

>>15886159
thanks for answering my questions anon

[Anonymous No.15886293]

>>15886246
No problem, I never get a chance to talk about Baudrillard irl so it’s nice to ramble about him on here every so often.

[Anonymous No.15886317]

>>15883031
>>15883023
>>15882843
Can i get the title of this book? Much appreciated.

[Anonymous No.15886322]

>>15886317
Top two are fatal strategies, bottom is passwords. The other book I posted is For a critique of the political economy of the sign

[Anonymous No.15887023]

>>15882312

Yes.

[Anonymous No.15887066]

which authors are post-baudrillard?

[Anonymous No.15887161]

>>15887066
Not many, but Paul Virilio is in a similar spot, as are Derrida and Deleuze.

[Anonymous No.15887200]

>>15883681
Can't bullshit your way with someone who's done his reading, this is the only way to deal with pseuds, take a picture of every single passage contradiction their wiki tier ramblings

[Anonymous No.15887215]

>>15887066
None at the moment, we are still living in the postmodern condition.

[Anonymous No.15887231]

>>15886073
thats part of it now but when debord came up with the idea it was about how commodities were being consumed as a substitute for lived experience

[Anonymous No.15887364]

>>15887231
For sure, debords whole point was that post ww2 economic tendencies were destroying culture in the name of consumption. That we’ve moved from survival needs to needs of artificial survivalBut that’s not a real simple explanation .

[Anonymous No.15887529]

>>15887364
pairing society of the spectacle with revolution of everyday life gives a better idea of the spectacle. debord has a tendency to use much more complicated language than he needs to

[Anonymous No.15887580]

>>15887529
Yeah, honestly I wish it wasn’t his most popular work. I found the piece where he talks about hard vs soft ambiance of the city and related topics to be more interesting than TSoTS

[Anonymous No.15887819]

Be an incel, it’s the only way

[Anonymous No.15888194]

>>15886293
what happens if you try to talk about Baudrillard irl?

[Anonymous No.15888224]

>>15885617
>You clearly belong to the intellectual elites, can you plz recommend me a outfit which increases my IQ by at least 20 points?
live in a nudist colony

[jesus No.15888490]

>>15882312
are you being watched?

[Anonymous No.15888772]

>>15885617
You listen to chapo so the only thing you should do is dilate

[Anonymous No.15889637]

>>15888194
People don’t understand what I’m saying. It’s frustrating cause I’m really into it, but hey if I’m dating a girl they’ll listen to me cause they enjoy when I talk about things I’m passionate about.

[Anonymous No.15889647]

>>15882312
The spectacle isn't real because its premises are false.

[Anonymous No.15889677]

>>15883023
>The power of 9/11 was its fundamental inability to be absorbed by the system.

Yeah ok or it exposed the idea that 'the system' is inadequate to describe social relations

[Anonymous No.15889695]

>>15886002
Why privilege authenticity? That is just an ontotheological trick

[Anonymous No.15889734]

>>15889677
Yeah, that idea has been in Baudrillard’s work since early on. He has a book called In the shadow of silent majorities where he goes after sociology. He was a sociology professor prior to this.
>>15889695
Most French theorists of the 20th century were reacting heavily to existentialism which privileges authenticity. Baudrillard doesn’t give it a Privileged position as much as he shows that it’s pointless. Culturally authenticity is a huge thing, it’s one of the main things that you see on social media, in advertising, in religion, on /lit/ and everywhere. Despite it now being impossible

[Anonymous No.15890542]

>>15885426
Bump for this

[Anonymous No.15890818]

>>15885426
>>15890542
In his book Forget Foucault he opposes the root form of production, pro-ducer which is to make visible to se-ducer which is to make hidden. Seduction is that which draws you out of yourself. Think of the way people when they get a new group of friends; they adopt their language, their mannerisms. That group has seduced them, drawing them out of themselves. Your dreams are seductive, good art is seductive. Seduction is not about desire, it is about playing with desire.

[Anonymous No.15891616]

>>15882312
yeah read Heidegger buy 20 acres of undeveloped land and grill

[Anonymous No.15891628]

>>15883031
do you have red hair?

[Anonymous No.15891775]

>>15891628
No, but my brother does and I have some red beard hairs

[Anonymous No.15891788]

>>15891775
>neckbeard baudrillardian
cringe!

[Anonymous No.15891814]

>>15891616
heidegger is a nazi, yikes. educate yourself plz

[Anonymous No.15891829]

>>15891788
Yeah man I’ll start shaving when I have to go to work in person

[Anonymous No.15893039]

>>15886159
would you happen to have a ebook ver of radical alterity? can't find it

[Anonymous No.15893118]

>>15890818
Thanks

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.15893270]

>>15884209
In the off chance you haven’t looked yet
https://www.jamesherod.info/Getting_Free.pdf

[Anonymous No.15894324]

>>15893039
Don’t think there is one
>>15893118
No problem, if you want an easy overview of Baudrillard, check out the Baudrillard dictionary

[Anonymous No.15894915]

>>15883129
it's labelled "delicious golden topping" at theaters

[Anonymous No.15894924]

>>15882970
that's because derrida was an algerian jew with an axe to grind regarding the french

[Anonymous No.15894935]

>>15882533
but overproducing spectacles has created a major crisis in the last five years

[Anonymous No.15895293]

Bump

[Anonymous No.15895310]

>>15894935
>In the last five years
Laughs in patriot act.jpg

[Anonymous No.15895861]

so is the cure for all this unironically just becoming a normie

[Anonymous No.15896132]

>>15895861
>cure
No cure available