Is anarchism just a meme

[Anonymous No.15764314]

I have been interested in it for quite some time now and would like to know /lit/'s opinion on it before I waste my summer reading Kropotkin.
.
I feel like old school anarchists are some of the most interesting people around and my country has a very rich history of anarchist movements in the ninteenth and twentieth centuries, but kids calling themselves anarchists just seem to focus on BLM/LGBT stuff without much interest in the theory/history which throws me off.

[Anonymous No.15764473]

>>15764314
No.

[Anonymous No.15764577]

It makes a lot of sense to me, but I wouldn't call myself an anarchist today, simply because I don't want to be associated with antifa and the like.

[Anonymous No.15764636]

>>15764314
it is just a meme
anarchist theory is joke tier (especially Kropotkin)

[Anonymous No.15764647]

>>15764314
Kropotkin is degenerate, read slavoj zizek

[Anonymous No.15764667]

>>15764636
Any suggestion on a particular author with high theoretical value? I mean a text that explores the philosophical presupositions but can discuss the real life implications of it too.

[Anonymous No.15764670]

>>15764314
Anarchism isn't a meme, but as someone who used to consider himself an anarchist and spent a lot of time around other so-called anarchists, I can tell you that it's given to a lot of flaws and tendencies, like the ones you mentioned with BLM and stuff, that have rendered it ineffective for achieving sustained liberation and development as a viable alternative, today at least.

At this point, about the best thing you can do with anarchism is allow the overall philosophy of self governance and mutual aid to inspire you to learn skills like growing your own food, mending your own clothes, sharing with others and living peacefully amongst other people who may be completely different from you. You can also take some of the critiques leveled against corporate property by Proudhon, anti-work manifestos, and all of the exhaustive anti-capitalist stuff and use it to help you understand worker struggle, the need for change, or whatever else.

Demanding the Impossible is a great book for a giant overview
I'd start there instead of Kropotkin, OP. There's so much more. I don't have a chart but someone will surely post one.

>tldr: anarchism is not a meme, but flawed and overrun by liberals, use it to improve yourself first and gain a new perspective rather than having it be a political alternative, right now.

[Anonymous No.15764782]

>>15764670
>Growing your own food, mending your own clothes, sharing with others and living peacefully amongst other people who may be completely different from you

That is exactly what I find interesting about it. The idea of self liberation and building stronger bonds with people now that we are more isolated and without a clear path forward.
Thanks anon, I will check the recommended

[Anonymous No.15764794]

>>15764667
Might be worth reading Murray Bookchin - don't waste your time with Proudhon either

[Anonymous No.15764806]

>>15764636
Well fuck if this post didn't trigger me elmo
Have a (you)

[Anonymous No.15764957]

Kinda

the "best" anarchist projects, Paris Commune, CNT spain, Ukraine anarchists, CHAZ never seem to last very long.

Anarchism is more of a barometer of public instability in any given country.
The higher the tendency is the bigger the need for the central government to crack down on anti government activity rather than an actual system than can be achieved someday

[Anonymous No.15765234]

>>15764314
Human nature stands in a way of any anarchist theory.
Also any kind of 'utopia' is only possible in a racially and ethnically homogeneous society with similar values

[Anonymous No.15765319]

Read State and Revolution by Lenin. funnily i got ''warned' for making a thread abt state and rev like a week ago lmao

[Anonymous No.15765379]

>>15764794
I have heard of him, looks ver interesting, I will check him out. Thanks anon.

[Anonymous No.15765382]

>>15764314
no comrade, anarcho-communism is literally the fucking future. this board is infested with nazis so don't listen to anything they say. we're already transitioning and it's already great. CHAZ was just the beginning and look how successful it was. literally the only people against us are racists and fascists lol...

[Anonymous No.15765386]

Anarchists are always, I repeat *always*, useful idiots for international capitalism.

Their primary interest is in dismantling the state, which is basically the same as saying you want the private sector to do everything.

[Anonymous No.15765392]

>>15765386
Agreed. I consider Anarchists the enemy of Class Consciousness. Read Marx.

[Anonymous No.15765396]

Literally burn all your facsist books and read Marx. only people who are racists and nazis are not reading Marx. I'm glad to see more and more books are burning destroyed, all media is stepping into line, and the 2nd Bolshevik revolution is coming... lol racists can't hide behind their lord of the rings or other nazi books anymore they're gonna get CANCELLED

[Anonymous No.15765415]

>>15765319
board is run by hitler nazi worshippers so not surprised comrade. no pasaran!!!

[Anonymous No.15765436]

>>15764314
>old school anarchists are some of the most interesting people
majority were Jews that got BTFO'd by the Bolsheviks in both Spain and later in the USSR. Anarchists are literal monkey tier ideologues that LARP as non-conforming atheists when they're just demagogues trying to spread their shitty neo-religion.

[Anonymous No.15765503]

ALERTA ALERTA ANTIFASCISTA!!!!
REVOLUTION COMRADES!!! WE ARE TAKING LIT!!

[Anonymous No.15765532]

I've been told that anarchism is ultimately just liberalism, and I think I'm inclined to agree with that.

[Anonymous No.15765560]

>>15765532
so is socialism tbf

[Anonymous No.15765563]

>>15765382
>>15765396
>>15765415
all same person, all b8

[Anonymous No.15765573]

>>15765563
I think this guy is shitting up multiple threads but it's hard to tell, this place is so full of retards.

[Anonymous No.15765612]

>>15765573
Awful shame tbqh. I wish we could have a few threads where we talk about left theory without it being ruined by retards. Miss /leftypol/.

[Anonymous No.15765637]

>>15765612
But leftypol is still around

[Anonymous No.15765648]

anarchism is cringe. Individualist anarchism ala conan or something is based

[Anonymous No.15765653]

>>15765637
its not the same though, the bunkerchan one

[Anonymous No.15765673]

>>15764314
Communal anarchism is a bad meme.

Egoist anarchism is a good meme.

[Anonymous No.15765675]

>>15764957
CHAZ was just a bunch of racist thugs extorting people and enacting racial segregation.

[Anonymous No.15765695]

>>15765673
this

[Anonymous No.15765700]

>>15765653
Ya.
The daily is news still pretty good tho

[Anonymous No.15765762]

>>15764314
They come in a collectivist or individualist version - collectivists are just naive children (I sympathize with Makhno personally, but his commune had started to fall apart even before they were betrayed by communists (lol) - because of retarded economic system). Individualists who respect private property are the humanity's future - jump the bandwagon to be among the pioneers.

[Anonymous No.15765824]

So many confident anons posting their stupid little opinions ITT. Very embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.15765838]

>>15764957
They don't last long because statist thugs go in and smash them up? Revolutionary Catalonia and the Paris commune were successes before they got betrayed. Anarchism is a threat to the elites hence why it must be smashed at all costs. You just can't question authority, you must accept it without thinking.

[Anonymous No.15765917]

>>15765762
Anarchocapitalism is the biggest meme ideology to ever exist.

[Anonymous No.15765931]

>>15765673
What about christian/religious anarchism a la Tolstoy/Saint Augustine?

[Anonymous No.15765959]

>>15765838
> Revolutionary Catalonia

bloodthirsty maniacs lol

[Anonymous No.15765973]

>>15765917
sure peasant

[Anonymous No.15765994]

>>15765838
this should be an argument for statism. but nah keep larping.
Anarachists are the lowest of the low.

[Anonymous No.15766008]

>>15765994
It shows that statists cannot be trusted?

[Anonymous No.15766015]

>>15766008
Like you are some fucking barbarian savages vegetating thousands of years under some rock?

[Anonymous No.15766018]

>>15766008
no ,you guys suffer from the same problems the libertalols have . the demand for a state. its inescapable.
FORM YOUR OWN STATE YOU IMBECILE FUCK

[Anonymous No.15766030]

>>15765838
Ironic because CHAZ had armed border guards and a police force who ended up killing a black teenager. Very progressive, such liberty.

[Anonymous No.15766043]

>>15766018
Came to think of it, you are actually worse than peasants - they at least jumped any opportunity they had to become independent producers..

[Anonymous No.15766083]

>>15766030
CHAZ was some idiot hippies ranting against police. There was/is no focus on anarchism or setting up an anarchist state. That's like pointing at Afghanistan and calling it an example of libertarianism/capitalism.

[Anonymous No.15766084]

>>15766043
>independent
true independence would mean you live on a undiscovered island or deeep deep innnawood like bigfeet
but guess what you CANT.
You numbskull fuck, the state will get you ,so form a state or else.|
btw by state i dont just mean official states, a gang and its territory is also a state.

[Anonymous No.15766106]

>>15766018
Nobody 'demanded' a state, it was imposed by force by the biggest thug around and persists because its been around for so long we have collective Stockholm syndrome.

[Anonymous No.15766107]

>>15766084
anarcho-syndicalism is kinda on the good way ,just gotta drop the first part

[Anonymous No.15766128]

>>15766106
>Nobody 'demanded' a state
by demanded i mean wanted and formed.
read Hoppe

[Anonymous No.15766146]

>>15766106
>the biggest thug
loose gangs are eventually pushed by self titled ''nice people'' and the power grow from there.

[Anonymous No.15766154]

>>15766146
and by nice , i mean nice for the sake of the market. so people can trade without crime.
They start imposing regulation and it creeps up to the state the US are.

[Anonymous No.15766180]

>>15764314
Fellow anarchist here, don't listen to the assortment of Marxists and right-wingers here comrade, they have little to say other than the same disingenuous 'critiques' that have been addressed numerous times.

Some things to read:
Pierre Joseph Proudhon (Get the Property is Theft! reader from AK Press, it includes all of Proudhon's English translations up to this point.)
Mikhail Bakunin- God and the state & Statism and Anarchy
Peter Kropotkin- Conquest of Bread, Mutual Aid, Ethics, etc. The AK Press reader Direct Struggle Against Capital is also good.
Rudolf Rocker- Nationalism and Culture & Anarcho-Syndicalism
Other anarchists worth reading- Benjamin R. Tucker, Johann Most, Elisee Reclus, Carlo Cafiero, Gustav Landauer, Errico Malatesta, Alexander Berkman, Emma Goldman, Louise Michel, Voltarine De Cleyre, Lysander Spooner, Murray Bookchin, Renzo Novatore, Nestor Makhno, Albert Meltzer, Joseph Dejacque, & Max Stirner

[Anonymous No.15766197]

>>15766180
Top quality list my friend

[Anonymous No.15766199]

>>15764577
Antifa are not anarchists anon, they didn't pick up a book in their life even by mistake.

[Anonymous No.15766211]

>>15766128
>Hoppe
ancaps aren't anarchists
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq
See section F

[Anonymous No.15766224]

>>15766211
I know ffs , but ancap are similar to anarchists in wanting no state intervention .
Its just that one is market based and the other childish.

[Anonymous No.15766230]

>>15766211
It is anarchy by definition as there is no government.

[Anonymous No.15766240]

it's literally baby's first political ideology
if people just "working together" could work if it would have been done and survived as a movement by now

[Anonymous No.15766252]

Anarch(ism)? Totally meme.
Anarchy? no.

[Anonymous No.15766258]

>>15766224
i MEAN HANG ALL POLITICIAN FOR CORRUPTION!!
MEGALOMANIACS FUCKs SELF ENTITLED SAVIORS OF MANKIND
FUCK DEMOCRACY
Totalitarianism is the best for the masses as ironic as it seem.
The state is mostly incapable of doing anything else than reacting to the masses , with democracy ,they enticipate and confuse every fucking thing.

[Anonymous No.15766263]

>>15766224
There are anarchists that are in favor of markets, but still consider themselves socialism. Obviously Proudhon's mutualism was a form of market socialism and the individualist anarchist of Benjamin Tucker, Dyer Lum, Joseph Labadie, etc. was market socialist.
>>15766230
From Stephen Pearl Andrews, individualist anarchist, "Arche is a Greek word (occurring in mon-archy, olig-archy, hier-archy, etc.), which curiously combines, in a subtle unity of meaning, the idea of origin or beginning, and hence of elementary principle, with that of government or rule. (“The Pantarchy Defined,” 1873)"
Proudhon's original conception of anarchism extended not only in the realm of government hierarchy, but economic hierarchy as well, which is why he proclaimed "property is robbery!"

[Anonymous No.15766273]

>>15766083
Well, what do you expect, an anarchist state organized only by highly educated and most brilliant people well-versed in Analytic Marxism and left-wing political science? How else do you propose to make a self-governing community founded on anarchist principles if not through purely emotional enthusiasm of midwit Starbucks habitués ranting against excesses of police brutality?

[Anonymous No.15766283]

>>15766263
>favor of markets
with regulations yes?( who like scams amirite?)
do power that come with regulation corrupt ?
YES
HERE COME THE STATE

Its as if anarchist had no forward thinking for more than 10 years and only around there little groups.

[Anonymous No.15766346]

>>15766283
Are you schizophrenic? Can you talk normally and form a coherent sentence, or are you twelve?

Clearly you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, and have read no classical anarchist literature.

Classical anarchism presented a dual critique of statism and capitalism as both a form of exploitation, or 'escheat.'

Ancaps are not anarchists because they put more emphasis on 'voluntary' (voluntaryism, voluntary hierarchy, etc.) than 'anarchy' (a state of social relations lacking hierarchy)

The biggest mistake with voluntaryism is that property is not voluntary. The NAP enforces a rigid legal code that de facto prevents certain exercises of liberty like squatting on unused land or freely associating with the means of production.

Actual anarchy in all of it's forms lacks the apparatus of legal order, so 'prohibitions' and 'permissions' don't exist as an they are aspects of legal order. While anarchy doesn't permit or restrict certain actions, creating hierarchies eliminates a state of anarchy, which is why voluntaryists (eg: ancaps) aren't anarchists.

If you still don't understand, read this.
https://www.libertarian-labyrinth.org/featured-articles/archy-vs-anarchy-notes/

[Anonymous No.15766347]

>>15765319
Also Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder

[Anonymous No.15766367]

>>15765838
Yes because anarchists deny the political and ignore the reality of constant enemies. Hence why MLs were able to stay around and anarchists were not.

[Anonymous No.15766380]

>>15766346
Im not gonna read your shit, do you understand that anarchists cannot enforce anything effectively and a state will emerge no matter what?

[Anonymous No.15766384]

>>15766154
They just evolved into the "stationary bandit" variety - the natural selection had removed parasites which kill their hosts.
We can squash them all the same with a bit of coordination.

[Anonymous No.15766390]

>>15764314
Complete meme. An 19th and 20th century ideology that was never ever able to accomplish anything even in it's hay day. Also just completely full of theoretical holes.

[Anonymous No.15766397]

>>15766384
>coordination
>anarchist
t. janitor

[Anonymous No.15766401]

>>15766380
HOLY SHIT ARE YOU BRAINDEAD

I literally addressed that in my post oh my god.

[Anonymous No.15766415]

>>15766401
Help me understand , im an old man, could you repeat yourself?

[Anonymous No.15766431]

>>15766397
Are you OP?
Not having a fucking clue..

[Anonymous No.15766479]

>>15766415
Well considering you explicitly said you weren't going to read the stuff I presented, admittedly It's a little frustrating to do so.

As I stated, anarchism lacks legal order of any kind. Therefore 'permissions' and 'prohibitions' are aspects of legal order. Anarchism also precludes any sort of 'rights' acknowledged as a figment of legal order

Now let's pose a scenario. Let's say that we live under anarchy and I plan to establish a feudal kingdom, and I do so. Now this is not restricted (or permitted for that matter) as there is (or was no legal order) but we can both say that these social relations are no longer anarchistic, as hierarchies, legal order, etc. are restored.

So by logical extension, if a capitalist community begins to do the exact same thing creating hierarchies of wealth and hiring private armies to defend private property, and enforcing the legal order of the NAP, anarchy ceases to exist.

This is why ancaps aren't considered anarchists. The proposed anarchist economic systems, eg: mutualism, collectivism, and communism are non-hierarchial economic modes of production consistent with anarchism, which is why they are accepted as legitimate.

[Anonymous No.15766482]

>>15766346
>creating hierarchies eliminates a state of anarchy
Good luck having a simple meeting without some (voluntary and temporary) hierarchy.
Sometimes I wonder if you guys are serious or you are just paid to give anarchism bad name

[Anonymous No.15766487]

>>15766346
>Ancaps are not anarchists
no shit
>The NAP enforces a rigid legal code that de facto prevents certain exercises of liberty like squatting on unused land or freely associating with the means of production.
This is why you need a state or do you like
exterior oppression?

[Anonymous No.15766537]

>>15766482
Meetings can exist without pre-ordained leaders and thrive as non-hierarchial networks. Most relations that we think of as hierarchies aren't nescessarily hierarchies per se. Hierarchies by definition are social structures where there is an ordained member 'above' with a percived 'right of command' and an ordained 'below' who must obey the 'above.'
Take a teacher student example. Obviously under current conditions education is very rigidly hierarchical. But under anarchism the idea will to be to advise rather than command. Think of the purpose of an educator to remedy unequal knowledge. Mutual interdependence doesn't necessarily have to create hierarchy, but instead abolish it, in the case of the anarchistic educator, abolishing unequal knowledge.
>>15766487
I don't understand the second point you're trying to make.

[Anonymous No.15766542]

>>15766479
>non-hierarchial economic modes of production
There is no such thing unless you live alone like bigfoot but on Mars.
>What is social relations?
The whole planet as been privatized.
I dont like it either buddy.

[Anonymous No.15766551]

>>15766542
Points made: zero

[Anonymous No.15766564]

>>15766537
within mutalism , someone is gonna claim social hierarchy eventually (interior oppression)
or eventually a non anarchist group will just fuck you up because its not the stone age.
(exterior oppression)

[Anonymous No.15766580]

>>15764314
Yes it is, in many ways. I've used to be anarchist when I was a teenager and read some of the crap and there are just so many issues that pile up with these ideas.

Number 1 of all anarchist movements is their ability to defend whatever they've won. Where I say all I mean ALL, including ancaps(which most lefty anarchists have beef with). You have anarchist territory/state/whatever you call it and it borders a nation, how to prevent annexation? Now in normal situations this would be resolved by having some kind of military, but organising voluntary military force with funding that's voluntary and everyone can opt-out of it at any moment... yeah that's not gonna work. Not to mention that there are no indicators that such militaries will actually win with more heavily drilled and coordinated state-organised ones. "But muh SPanish sivil wer" - the entire SCW was one giant disaster for Republicans, even when they were sort-of-united(backstabbing phase only came later) they were practically never able of taking initiative from the Nationalists, majority of the war is just N. gaining ground and counterattacks of R's taking territory in a week of fighting that N's later retook in a day. So state military vs. mixed state and anarchist military, 100% state military won. The need for military and peculiarity of its organisation runs in conflict with anarchist beliefs and there isn't really much that can be done with it, as such you have to literally rely on your ability to brainwash the entire planet to join you so nobody can exploit anarchists weakness, and that's about as likely as Holy Roman Emperor building world-spanning Empire in times of Dante(which according to D. was supposed to bring the second coming, if you actually believe he was serious about it). I'll soon go over other problems, but this basically disqualifies the entire premise of anarchism, it's unable to establish itself(maintenance isn't even on the table) so it's not functional.

[Anonymous No.15766592]

>>15766551
yeah , its not clear enough , i missed a space between line 3 and 4 , they are not related.

[Anonymous No.15766607]

>>15766401
>reddit spacing
Your sentences aren't that important faggot

[Anonymous No.15766627]

>>15766607
Yeah they are

[Anonymous No.15766642]

>>15766180
OP here, thanks anon this seems really high quality list, I will save it.
Should I start with Proudhon or there is ko particular order?

[Anonymous No.15766644]

>>15766580
Number 2 is the fact that anarchists are faced with existential crisis ever since about 1950's. Before that, they could assume, since noone was smarter that they can grow out of labour movement, however by 1950 it was hard to find bigger trade union which boss still worked normal job. That was a confirmation of Michels' iron law of the oligarchy in practice. There was resistance towards it, sure, but a lot of for instance salary rows(where union bosses demanded salary increases) were resolved after the union boss threatened with resignation - the union members who opposed salary increases weren't willing to do union boss job for double the average worker's wage either, and just caved in to keep the old bosses around. This is a big problem for anarchists from the point of maintenance of the "system"(I know you're gonna say "I'm not building a system!" but I'm not willing look up for synonymous you'll find acceptable to call what you want to build), if the Soviets were turned into brutal dictatorship and if the unions solidified strictly hierarchical structure, then how can you ensure that anarchy won't result in recreation of the state under different name?

[Anonymous No.15766674]

>>15766537
>Take a teacher student example. Obviously under current conditions education is very rigidly hierarchical. But under anarchism the idea will to be to advise rather than command. Think of the purpose of an educator to remedy unequal knowledge.
OK. Teachers have an enormous power currently but it was given to them by the state. Private educators are much more on equal terms with their students - because they directly receive their payments from them - the hierarchy vanishes instantly. (some of the first medieval universities were organized this way - the students were hiring their professors and they could dismiss them if they were not satisfied)

[Anonymous No.15766681]

>>15766431
I am OP but am not the one you are responding. I am legitimately undecided on anarchism.

[Anonymous No.15766699]

>>15766644
Now this requires slight game theorising, so let's first establish the condition that will happen in successful anarchist free state(that won't happen, but let's pretend).

Resources are split regarding the needs of the memebers of their respective communes. There's only so many of these resources so it's not gonna be luxury yacht and 5 instathots every night for everyone. Assuming you generate no new wealth at all, then there's still an incentive for a group(for example religious in nature) to rise up and enslave the commune by force and get bigger piece of the cake. Now of course if new wealth is generated then that's even better for the new despots as the surpluses go into their hands. Thus from the perspective of militant minority dismantling the anarchy and forming a state, through subversion or force is beneficiary. This is btw. the reason for the iron law of oligarchy, in very broad generalisation. Now of course the problem number 1 means that considerations of this type don't even matter in the grand aspect but I want to digress on the topic of anarchist anthropology, which is incredibly stupid.

[Anonymous No.15766739]

>>15766644
Doesn't the syndicalist or communist movements intrinsecally associaciated movements with anarchism make organizing a military at least theoretically possible?
And in order to prevent the formation of a new states there is a hard decentralization of power through autonomous organizations of workers.

[Anonymous No.15766767]

>>15766273
Catalonia, Paris Commune, Baja California etc. were states set up by working people with the explicit aim of establishing anarchism. They understood and worked towards it. By nearly all metrics, they were doing well.

CHAZ has nothing to do with anarchism but instead was a 'fuck you' to police. That's not anarchism.

[Anonymous No.15766797]

>>15766699
So where should we start? The assumption that voluntarism that was allegedly present in prehistorical times will pretty much exclude violence and our instincts to climb social hierarchy(or build one). This is at this point backed by psychoanalytic influence on the subject and incredibly, incredibly flawed.

Stateless societies that anthropologists can/could access to fight wars more often than those with state, the rape is more common - good example here is Samoa, where dumb Freudian skank described the locals as living in perfect harmony and full liberation from everywhere, but in reality it's a place where 60% of women were raped at least once and women in general chase the biggest murderers in their villages - the wars that take part are little bit different in nature to what we think of as war - that is grand battles and so on - but also, ironically enough the casualties are relatively greater than those inflicted by any interstate war we've heard of. Raiding and attacking non-combatants heavily contributes to that.

However AA's are completely sure that violence is only there because of oppression and exploitation. This spills over many other fields like religious studies etc.
>>15766739
The attempts at forming effective military will still be hindered by the credo of anarchists. In practice combat can be divided into several steps and the side that's faster at cycling between these will win all other things being equal. A state-owned military, with clear chain of command and drilled in obedience will do it much faster, can't get around it. Basically the only way to build a working military is to forget anarchy and form state with multipolar power balance(which will still retain some of the particularist traits), but is that actually worse than more modern state at doing anything anarchists want to do?
>>15766767
>By nearly all metrics, they were doing well.
Catalonian anarchists, together with the rest of republican coalition were a complete failure.

[Anonymous No.15766822]

>>15766797
To add a bit to the multipolar state thing - the good example of it is Visigothic Spain. Not exactly a place where "freedom"(of any kind, including economic) is there. Another example may be some of the US territories before getting state rights(THE WILD WEST) - again, not surprisingly ruled by the sword(or rather rifle and a tomahawk) and there's probably half a dozen others.

Basically the unipolar state manages to give you more freedoms and justices than multipolar one, so basically outside of the pretension of particularity there's nothing to be gained from the perspective of both leftist and rightist anarchist from engaging in this kind of organisation. Which is the final nail in the coffin of anarchists actually being able to defend themselves from a neighbouring state deciding to devour them.

[Anonymous No.15766824]

>>15764314
Why waste your time with these ideologies? None of them will solve your problems, none of them will offer any "solutions" except further hyper-autistic sub-variants of your pseudo religious beliefs. You think yourself clever to replace spirtuality, or whatever was left of it, with ideology. It won't satisfy you. You will spend your days fighting shadows until it's too late and you wind up dead and forgotten like everyone of your so called "comrades". Someone else's fodder for someone else's benefit. Every time I try to immerse myself in these hip new ideas I always realize it's just a form of a slavery that warps human will into a radicalized shell of a man that lives for nothing other than an ideology. It's a shameful way to live your brief life, but if that's how you cope with the nausea of nihilism then so be it. But don't drown me in moralisms if that's your line of thinking either. Don't preach such empty concepts of "humanity" and "equality" and "organization" when we all can visibly see clearly what it is you're trying to run from. And let me tell you, you won't win that race.

[Anonymous No.15766858]

>>15766699
>game theorising
It has been in done in a variation of a hawk–dove game with a snake added to the mix. In classic game, when a hawk always attacks and a dove never attacks but always surrenders the equilibrium includes both kinds of strategies (predators will exist - somewhat obviously) but if we add a strategy of never attacking but also never surrendering then this becomes the winning strategy - we have an equilibrium without predators.
In practical terms, not that many snakes will be needed to remove hawks from the game, but unfortunately we face the problem of collective action - *someone* has to risk a sacrifice (to be resolved..)

[Anonymous No.15766884]

>>15766858
>if we add a strategy of never attacking but also never surrendering then this becomes the winning strategy
I don't even know how did that brainfart go through your deluded brain without triggering cognitive dissonance. We're talking anarchism whole the time so Spanish Civil War is fitting here. There were many Nationalist offensives during it, but only a few Republican ones, given their lack of success you can very easily say that they were your "never attack, but also never surrender" part of the game.

Who won Spanish Civil War, again?

[Anonymous No.15766885]

>>15766083
>real anarchism has never been tried

[Anonymous No.15766907]

>>15766884
In case of internal oligarchy forming it's literally irrelevant as it can just form out of lazyness of the masses unwilling to contribute to management of their activities and electing for instance foremen to deal with that for them. Dove, hawk, doesn't matter.

Violent takeovers at the same time will just physically remove "snakes".

[Anonymous No.15766918]

>>15766767
>By nearly all metrics, they were doing well

Prove your assertion.

[Anonymous No.15766945]

>>15766767
So small religious-tier cultists that were working in harmony to achieve a common task within a short window of time and they did not survive the test of time.

[Anonymous No.15766989]

>>15766824
Anarchism is not an ideology you mindlessly adscribe to in order to quench your thirst for spirituality and trascendence, but more like a distant goal you strive for and keep at the back of your mind every step of the way. It is a path to be freer from struggles, material or not.

It is not even incompatible with deep spirituality, but rather a direct peoduct of it if understood correctly, Tolstoy and Saint Augustine where mentioned above.
There is a deep affinity between those who aspire to liberation and freedom and the mystics and hermits that are found throughout every religion's history.

[Anonymous No.15767016]

>>15764314
Complete meme, anarkiddies go straight to gulag

[Anonymous No.15767057]

>>15766884
You started "theorizing" and now you mock the theory?
Get the fuck out of here you pseud.

[Anonymous No.15767081]

>>15764314
try henry david thoureu if you want something non cringe.

[Anonymous No.15767095]

>>15767057
Your hot take of "if you defend urself whole the time u win" is pseud.

[Anonymous No.15767122]

>>15765931
good. usually lasts a long time (compared to secular anarchs). the thing is that they usually die out from low/no birth rates like the shakers or some sects of quaker.

[Anonymous No.15767130]

>>15767095
rolf moron - you explicitly referenced "game theory" - I guess that you've no idea what you talking about here as well.

[Anonymous No.15767857]

Since most comments are
>Hurr anarchism no lasst, therefore wrong

Name a system that stands the test of time? Anarchists are just too good for this world.

[Anonymous No.15767917]

>>15767857
liberalism, meaning capitalist democratic republics, have endured since the independence of the United States
fuedalism lasted longer than that
and earlier agrarian imperial societies lasted even longer

[Anonymous No.15768001]

>>15767917
Liberalism is less than 300 years old and doesn't seem too popular these days. Hardly enduring.

Fuedalism was not a formal system and died once the state could claim the land. There is a reason it existed after fall of Roman Empire and rise "Modern Europe."

Agrarian Empires were little more than gangsters.

[Anonymous No.15768078]

>>15764314
Anarchy is just the transitory state between real forms of government. It isn't a thing, it is the absence of a thing, and it exists so that people can try out radical ideologies thanks to the power vacuum.

Anarchism has always either just been a power play by someone else to bring down an existing state, or a joke that immediately collapses to a reactionary right-wing movement. Revolutionary Catalonia is the ur-example since it was so humiliating.

The unfortunate reality is that these ridiculous Leftoid ideas might actually work if you prefaced them by murdering all Leftists. Right Wing people are phenotypically superior in every regard except novelty seeking, and could actually make such a system work, a'la the Benedictine Monasteries or extreme Chistian communalism. Leftists are all either parasites or idiots or tyrants.

[Anonymous No.15768118]

>>15767857
>too good
The inability to endure long-term is a totally legitimate critique. Fascism was also too good for this world by the same reasoning, except at least there were Fascist states that actually had peaceful transitions of power.

[Anonymous No.15768158]

>>15767857
No system lasts forever, but the success of the Soviet Union as a global superpower does at least point to some merits of that system.

[Anonymous No.15768228]

>>15768118
>Fascism was also too good
loled

Most fascists provoked their downfall, though. Franco showed it could last by leaving other's alone. Also, no fascist states had a peaceful transition of power. Commies or anglos had to bomb them to shit, anon.

Nothing lasts so why support other systems and not anarchy? No one in this thread has shown a weakness in anarchy not present in all systems (long term control).

[Anonymous No.15768315]

>>15768228
Anarchists couldn't even maintain a system beyond a couple of years. It's pipedream shit. Hierarchies always remanifest.

[Anonymous No.15769020]

>>15764314
Anarchist theory is not entirely worthless in the sense that it is admirable to want to be a free individual. But as a political project it was entirely stillborn. From the Treaty of Westphalia to the 20thC 'the state' had grown to encompass and control the entire world. As an anti-State movement Anarchism came into being to fight a war that was already lost. Now - one hundred years later - to be an Anarchist is to worship (by imitation) an aborted foetus that has been decomposing for a century.

[Anonymous No.15769488]

>>15766642
Proudhon is definitely more rigorous then the others, but he's worth it for sure. Start with What is Property?
You might like to read Shawn Wilbur's notes to fully comprehend his arguments.

https://www.libertarian-labyrinth.org/proudhon-library/notes-on-what-is-property-2019/

[Anonymous No.15769505]

>>15766674
I don't know what privatizing education has to do with my point about hierarchy other than shoe-horning gish-gallop about medival universities.. If education is public or private, and the same dynamic of rigid discipline and command based education is retained, I don't think there's a profound difference for that matter.

[Anonymous No.15770140]

>>15764957
>Ukraine anarchists
If you're referring to Makhno, he was just an eccentric warlord during a civil war, akin to von Ungern-Sternberg.
>CNT spain
Same shit, just a bunch of violent r-words exploiting the war.
>Paris Commune
They weren't "anarchist" lol.

[Anonymous No.15770171]

>>15764314
Old school anarcho-communist James Herod right here with some quick up to date *strategy*
https://www.jamesherod.info/Getting_Free.pdf

[Anonymous No.15770178]

>>15764577
So you’re pro-fascism, but say anarchism makes a lot of sense?
I guess you either don’t know what the nature of antifa is or you’re just making a funny

[Anonymous No.15770184]

>>15770178
He didn't say anything about being pro-fascism.

[Anonymous No.15770211]

>>15765532
When one is still a delusional Idpol spout, or a casual lifestylist individualist, one is immature in the ways of the theory. But those who tell you this little fib are ignorant statist, tankies, who wish to establish a state with a planned *capitalist* economy. Leninism is gutless immaturity compared to a knowledgeable anarchist.

[Anonymous No.15770220]

>>15765532
It is, the unit of analysis is the individual in both, it's simply a disagreement of methods.

[Anonymous No.15770228]

>>15764314
I don't think anarchism is inherently a meme, it's just that the people who become anarchists are generally living memes/lifestylists who make the whole position look stupid.

[Anonymous No.15770229]

>>15770211
>Leninism is gutless immaturity compared to a knowledgeable anarchist.
Lol still this asshurt about getting crushed theoretically and physically?

[Anonymous No.15770241]

>>15766347
>Also Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder should be flushed down the toilet

[Anonymous No.15770259]

>>15770229
No.

>What? I see perfect continuity. Putin is as rightwing as Lenin.

[Anonymous No.15770271]

>>15770241
>>15770259
Giga anarkiddie cope

[Anonymous No.15770295]

>>15770271
I’m coping just fine, thank you.
But as successful as the centralized planning economy is at getting feudal people to world nuclear power and leader in the space race, it’s been nothing close to communism. Even if we were to focus on China. Do you really think they’ll concede power to the people someday? In time?

[Anonymous No.15770306]

>>15770295
Communism is a pipe dream, the state will never wither away and nor will it be abolished all at once. Socialism is the only hope for mankind.

[Anonymous No.15770322]

>>15770306
But that’s not socialism. Are you the tankie I was talking to or a Berniecrat?

[Anonymous No.15770335]

I miss it so much bros...

[Anonymous No.15770343]

>>15764314
I, like others in this thread, was once an anarchist. Later in college I started realizing that the "anarchists" on my campus resembled nothing like the joe hill's and steinbeck's I had come to idolize. This particular ideology, although well intentioned, is fraught with diverging opinions. Anarchism has been a failure since the 30s, and the reason is because it's filled with disagreeing intellectuals who have never worked a day in their lives. I then started looking into syndicalist, anti populist, and legal theory. Fascism, although very gay, shares an awful lot with anarchism in terms of how they analyze power relations and view certain problems. I recommend completely avoiding the faggotry of both ideologies and getting to the meatiness hiding inside both. Familiarize yourself with proudhon, rocker, and sorel. These individuals rock the grey area (syndicalism) that is very important. Then read ezra pound, schmitt, marienetti, de rivera, and junger. You should also understand the entirety of the spanish civil war, which is crucial. If you're still convinced of kropotkin style rhetoric after all of this, don't be. The modernist struggle is long since over and the poststructuralists have thoroughly reduced all political power into the fields of linguistics and anthropology. Anarchism has tucked itself away in academia and 20th century politics are really just an intellectual pass time. I still recommend reading junger even if it's not what you're looking for, because his fiction is so good.

[Anonymous No.15770371]

>>15770335
We can do it again
We have to do it again.
https://www.jamesherod.info/Getting_Free.pdf

[Anonymous No.15770447]

>>15770343
>Anarchism has been a failure since the 30s
No, friend. Failures have been anarchists since the 30s. This takes organizational skills
> grey area (syndicalism) that is very important
Agree. But syndicalism only loops in part of the base. We need everyone in the community to organize, not just the workers.

[Anonymous No.15770491]

>>15770447
>failures have been anarchists since the 30s
Ha, I like that. And I definitely see where you're coming from, but were talking about someone who hasn't read Kropotkin. Anyways, the linguists are way more important to understand in these atomizing times.

[Anonymous No.15770499]

>>15766797
>A state-owned military, with clear chain of command and drilled in obedience will do it much faster, can't get around it.
Jeez, this topic truly attracts some illiterate morons.
The evolution of effective warfare emphasizes decentralization rather than rigid structures. Read about "swarming".
>One aspect of swarming is that it moves away from the traditional model of a rigid chain of command.

[Anonymous No.15770520]

>>15770322
I didn't define Socialism, which I mean the workers controlling the means of production. Both social democracy and Marxism-Leninism are 19th and 20th century ideologies at this point. As is anarchism.

[Anonymous No.15770541]

>>15770343
Pretty based, it's funny how everyone wants to line up to defend a team long dead.

[Anonymous No.15770555]

>>15770178
>this is the level of discourse of antifa apologists
Pathetic

[Anonymous No.15770562]

>>15766989
That sounds like a nice sermon friar but anarchists are continually preaching, organizing, and have their utopian dreams to pray for. They have their outdoor sermons which we saw at Chaz praying in unison via chanting but only acceptable chants are allowed. It's a giant joke. Communists are at least honest about their insanity by constantly telling you to read theory like some fundamentalist would tell you to read the Bible. All are coping and all are trash

[Anonymous No.15770570]

>>15770555
Antifa are not an organization. They’re anyone against fascism who want to go on the offensive or defensive.
You saw one break a Starbucks window? Fire bomb an empty limo? Tough shit.

[Anonymous No.15770576]

>>15770570
It's a cult more or less. Also they aren't against fascism because there is no fascism in the West. Mostly they are tethered imbeciles who fight for neo liberalism and beat up white people for wrongthink.

[Anonymous No.15770578]

>>15770570
>They’re anyone against fascism
How can you be against something removed as a real political force in 1945, more than 75 years ago?

[Anonymous No.15770581]

>>15770576
>Schizo poster

[Anonymous No.15770585]

>>15770578
Indoctrination. They're a neo religious movement thay sees the West as something evil. In their doctrine destroying the West should therefore bring a utopian earth via titla openness of society. But as we saw, they follow the usual patterns of forming ideological paramilitary guards, are incredibly hostile and violent to outsiders and people who question them, and constantly have to affirm themselves via virtue signaling. The whole thing is like the perverted premature birthed offspring of Marxism and Christianity. China sits in the background waiting to swallow whatever will be left. We may very well be on the final chapter of humanity this century.

[Anonymous No.15770594]

>>15770581
Your entire life revolves around ideologically affirming yourself to your comrades. The moment you drop the ideology or commit wrongthink they'll eat you alive it's a cult.

[Anonymous No.15770595]

>antifa are the real fascists
>there aren’t anymore actual fascists you know...
There aren’t any actual nazis. Fascism is quite popular. Especially with a lot of 4ailchan kids. You aren’t fooling anyone.

[Anonymous No.15770608]

>>15770595
You don't find it ironically hilarious that fascism or whatever you want to call it formed in the underground because people were tired of the neoliberał scam and tired of dealing with the neo religious cult of cultural Marxism? Everything was co opted. Even those native Americans fly rain bow flags now the whole thing is comically hilarious while leading to total annihilation.

[Anonymous No.15770611]

>>15770585
Antifa's function is to attack anyone who questions the expansion liberalism, this is why they go after targets as broad as WNs, TERFs, anti-idpol leftists, etc. They're just part of the disciplinary apparatus of the system.

[Anonymous No.15770617]

>>15770595
>retards on /pol/ post holocaust denial memes so fascism is a serious political force in the 21st century
You're a moron. What's a threat now is liberal capitalism becoming even more totalitarian and all encompassing, something anarchists have no problem participating in.

[Anonymous No.15770653]

>>15770608
The US has had the KKK for a long time, and anti-Roosevelt bootlickers Started the neonazis as early as they could. Liberals (federal agents) have been using them since their inception.

>>15770611
Then that’s not antifa, now is it? As already indicated above. Antifa are just regular people, wuite often disorganized and often enough impersonated. You’ve probably pretended to be one.

>>15770617
They’re one in the same. Bootlicker

[Anonymous No.15770671]

>>15770653
The kkk is not a Fascist group they were mostly former rebel soldiers that were more organized in your anarchist fashion than a movement the way you larp about non existent fascism. But the kkk is completely irrelevant anyway they barely exist. Neonazis are a Hollywood invention. You fight shadows for neo liberalism. China is waiting

[Anonymous No.15770683]

>>15770343
The historical failure of anarchism and the absolutely moronic people it tends to attract genuinly makes me sad man.
Imagine what could have been if it had established itself as a proper organization in the Spanish civil war.

>>15770335
We can just keep hoping anon...

[Anonymous No.15770699]

>>15770683
They'd have never survive the KGB subversion in the 60s and 70s and would have never survived the mass immigration of modernity.

[Anonymous No.15770705]

>>15770653
>Antifa are just regular people
lolno antifa and modern anarchists are freaks and trustfund kiddies. No one for a second believes the larp about it being normal people who just hate fat neonazis that much. Also antifa is essentially one movement since it's a bunch of local organizations doing the same thing across the country, since anarchists have a fetish for 'horizontal organizing'. It's all organized and directed through various publications like It's Going Down and shit like that.

[Anonymous No.15770717]

>>15770653
>They’re one in the same.
What? Liberalism and Fascism? No, they're concretely different ideologies with different objects of analysis, theoretical structures, and ideal end states. Anarchists once again can't into political theory, though I don't think anyone is surprised.

[Anonymous No.15770720]

>>15770653
>KKK
Fascism =/= racism you absolute moron, the US has never had any meaningful amount of fascism.

[Anonymous No.15770760]

>>15770671
>de jewz i vented neonazis
>the klan are extinct I tell you! Wiped out!

[Anonymous No.15770774]

>Anarchism thread
>Dissolves into /pol/ claiming they don’t exist.

[Anonymous No.15770882]

>>15770760
Resorting to baby tier sperging. Unsurprising behavior.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.15770901]

>>15770882
Says the /pol/tard doing damage control

[Anonymous No.15770912]

>>15770760
>the klan are extinct I tell you! Wiped out!
Yes, this is correct. There's barely any of them left, and none in any real positions of influence. The horse being beat may not be entirely dead, but it isn't conscious anymore.

[Anonymous No.15770916]

>>15770774
>Dissolves into /pol/ claiming they don’t exist.
No one disputes people say the n word online, it's just those people have no meaningful power whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.15770921]

>>15770916
But nay, nigger

[Anonymous No.15770946]

>>15770295
>feudal people
>early 20th Russia
Could y'all progressive folks kindly stop spouting this problematic memerino pls? It's heckling racist.

[Anonymous No.15770961]

>>15770946
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_II_of_Russia

>>15770912
>David Duke.gif

[Anonymous No.15770967]

>>15770961
David Duke doesn't have any meaningful influence, he was in a minor office for 3 years more than 30 years ago. Meanwhile, liberal capitalism is more totalitarian and hegemonic then ever.

[Anonymous No.15770971]

>>15770961
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Emperor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Joseph_I_of_Austria
What's your point?

[Anonymous No.15770983]

>>15764314
>Neither a life of anarchy nor a life under a despot should you praise. To all that lies in the middle has a god given excellence.
- Aischylos

[Anonymous No.15770991]

Would the gestapo please leave the thread.
Your "insights" aren't needed.

[Anonymous No.15771004]

>>15770983
>Aischylos
>Different meaning of anarchy
>God given

[Anonymous No.15771019]

>>15765653
try rhizzone

[Anonymous No.15771029]

>>15770595
Have another (you) my friend, very epic post

[Anonymous No.15771069]

>>15766564
argument not being addressed means you've BTFO him

[Anonymous No.15771075]

>>15764314
It's a waste of time. Anarchism could never work as an advanced industrial economy. There are just too many things that need the regulation and oversight of a state for an industrial economy to work.

[Anonymous No.15771094]

>>15771004
Atheism leads to disorder quite naturally

[Anonymous No.15771100]

>>15771004
look up how "Aeschylus" is actually spelled in the original language

[Anonymous No.15771118]

>>15765994
Your reasoning is the basis for Marxist-Leninism

[Anonymous No.15771154]

>>15764314
>Is anarchism just a meme
Yes.

[Anonymous No.15771160]

>>15771154
Whoa bois - we have an answer!

[Anonymous No.15771202]

>>15771160
>>15771154
/thread

[Anonymous No.15771214]

>>15764314
Anarchism is a shitshow as history will tell you. It is not sustainable in the long run. I'm not telling you to not read anarchist literature but I am telling you its the daydream of people who mostly ignore human nature

[Anonymous No.15771230]

>>15768228
Fascism is a far more legitimate system than anarchism ever will be. Even Franco could just easily shit all over revolutionary Catalonia.

[Anonymous No.15771242]

>>15770178
>>15770570
>All antifascism is antifa
This is like saying anyone who is involuntarily celibate is an incel.

[Anonymous No.15772728]

>>15771230
>with his foreign aid from Germany, Italy and Morocco
It was made easy by the Stalinists killing off 200+ syndicalists

>>15771242
Where’s the lie?

[Anonymous No.15772780]

>>15772728
>Franco won because other commies killed 200 syndicalists
Why are anarchists so bad at taking responsibility for their failures? Is it just a childish ideology?

[Anonymous No.15772787]

>>15770371
wtf is this crap - he's talking about destroying "capitalism" all the time - not the state.
And this is after all this bullshit about them being "true" anarchists - it's no wonder that you are being fucked in the ass by communists all time - BECAUSE you are NOT against the state.

[Anonymous No.15772805]

>>15764314
It’s a meme. Good for getting art-hoe pussy though

[Anonymous No.15772829]

>>15764314
Spontaneous revolution is retarded, only Vanguards or Syndicalist trade unions stand a chance of organizing workers.

[Anonymous No.15772839]

>>15772805
Is that because women don't read theory?

[Anonymous No.15772875]

>>15770371
Kys butterfag.

[Anonymous No.15772889]

>>15770901
>damage control
I'm not the one who believes the KKK is a serious force in modern America to justify some kind of retarded KGB psyop "revolution".

[Anonymous No.15772957]

>>15772839
More or less, I have actually gotten laid because I knew theory. Most girls right now are super interested in leftist philosophies in superficial ways so like if you fit that aesthetic they’ll put you on a pedestal. I think it’s less of a gender thing and more of anarchy is trendy thing

[Anonymous No.15772989]

>>15766211
Ancaps are the only real Anarchists.

[Anonymous No.15773043]

>>15772989
Tru