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15582600 No.15582600 [Reply] [Original]

>basically began a counter-judaism mystery cult that sought liberation from the material world
>influenced heavily by the Essenes and Zoroastrians
>teachings so anti-judaic that he was put to death
>within a single generation his teachings were subverted by the pharisee Saul who re-judaized Jesus' inherently anti-judaic teachings thereby neutralizing its radical and liberating nature
>subsequent sects that held to a more original and authentic form of Jesus' teachings were wiped out by the Saul-ites who propped up this re-judaized version of Christianity as the only legitimate one
>what the world knows today as Christianity is really the re-judaized corruption of it by Saul
did I get that right?

this is going from what i remember from my discussion with a pretty hardcore professor who specializes in philosophy of religion. He seemed to advocate a return to Zoroastrianism synthesized with a gnostic-Christianized German Idealism, btw.

>> No.15582602

Jesus literally rose from the dead.

>> No.15582607

your professor sounds based. yes, you got that right. don't think of Christianity today as "real" Christianity, it is just what the profane appropriation of true Christianity's gnostic kernel looks like

>> No.15582622

>>15582600
jesus was a jewish supremacist though

>> No.15582626 [DELETED] 
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15582626

>>15582600
>>basically began a counter-judaism mystery cult that sought liberation from the material world
> >influenced heavily by the Essenes and Zoroastrians
> >teachings so anti-judaic that he was put to death
> >within a single generation his teachings were subverted by the pharisee Saul who re-judaized Jesus' inherently anti-judaic teachings thereby neutralizing its radical and liberating nature
> >subsequent sects that held to a more original and authentic form of Jesus' teachings were wiped out by the Saul-ites who propped up this re-judaized version of Christianity as the only legitimate one
> >what the world knows today as Christianity is really the re-judaized corruption of it by Saul
> did I get that right?
> this is going from what i remember from my discussion with a pretty hardcore professor who specializes in philosophy of religion. He seemed to advocate a return to Zoroastrianism synthesized with a gnostic-Christianized German Idealism, btw.

>> No.15582638

>>15582626
cunnyfag tradcaths are a blight on this site

OP, did your prof recommend you any books?

>> No.15582642

>>15582600
>He seemed to advocate a return to Zoroastrianism synthesized with a gnostic-Christianized German Idealism, btw
Is Jorjani your professor

>> No.15582648
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15582648

>>15582638
>cunnyfag tradcaths are a blight on this site
>OP, did your prof recommend you any books?

>> No.15582667

>>15582600
Your professor is a false prophet

>> No.15582684

there are a lot of iranian nationalists astroturfing their "persians invented everything" shit these days, what gives?

>> No.15582703
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15582703

>>15582638
>did your prof recommend you any books?
at the time we talked just the Nag Hammadi Library + pic related.

im definitely looking for further recs though

>> No.15582762

>>15582600

This. >>15582667
Your (((professor))) is trying to drag you down into hell together with him. Try making a sign of the cross near him and you will see his true nature.

>> No.15582764

>>15582703
He is correct, Gospel of Thomas, Teachings of Sylvanus, these are explicitly gnostic Christian works. their attitude is diametrically opposed to the church as worldly organ of power

I would recommend just getting deeper into gnostic scholarship to clarify the parallels. I have some recs if you like.

>> No.15582775

>>15582684
It's cheaper for Iran to pay for keyboard warriors than to pay for a nuclear arsenal.

>> No.15582776
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15582776

>>15582600
>pretty hardcore professor who specializes in philosophy of religion

>> No.15582782
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15582782

>>15582764
>Gospel of Thomas, Teachings of Sylvanus
>getting deeper into gnostic scholarship
>opposed to the church as worldly organ of power

>> No.15582794

>>15582764
>as worldly organ of power
gnostics are unironically nothing more than this. they worship the lord of this cosmos. no wonder so many influential bugmen in the US are pushing gnosticism.

>> No.15582808

>>15582782
Stop soiposting

>> No.15582813

>>15582782
>>15582762
Christoids are pathetic. Lemme guess: you just started reading the summa, can't articulate or defend the ideas for yourself, but still need to let the world know your pseud indignation.

>> No.15582824

>>15582794
>akshually the gnostics worship the demiurge
lol. We've all read Voegelin anon.

>> No.15582828

>>15582600
what would you ask Jesus himself?

>> No.15582837
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15582837

>>15582764
>I have some recs if you like.
yeah hit me with them.

ignore the sperg spamming my thread with soijacks.

>> No.15582931
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15582931

>>15582837
Jacques Lacarriere - The Gnostics
Hans Jonas - The Gnostic Religion
Kurt Rudolph - Gnosis

You might be familiar with these. Lacarriere sells the sensibility like no one else, Jonas' book is one of the most respected in the field, and Rudolph's is a close third or fourth (and might just be my favorite). If your only exposure to Gnosticism is Nag Hammadi, these will be wonderful for you.

Couliano's Tree of Gnosis is excellent too, though a bit polemical for my tastes - still, he challenges a lot of midwit views on Gnosticism, and provides plenty of evidence for both its intrinsically Judaic AND anti-Judaic character.

If you want fiction

Marguerite Yourcenar - The Abyss
David Lindsay - Voyage to Arcturus

full of gnostic themes. the attitude is more important than the scholarship imo, but only once you've absorbed that scholarship and got your head screwed on right

http://gnosis.org/readlist.htm
https://thegodabovegod.com/recommended-gnostic-books-21st-century-heretic/

these will direct you to the rest. they're as exhaustive as anything I can find, all that's left is rando academic papers you'll find on google with the right "gnostic [x]" search. and if you like Pynchon (I don't), there's an excellent book on how his fiction resonates with gnostic themes called The Gnostic Pynchon.

>> No.15582939

But Paul is the anti jew?

>> No.15582946
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15582946

>>15582931

>> No.15582985
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15582985

>>15582931
cheers anon. i appreciate it

>> No.15583048
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15583048

>>15582600
It is basically a Jewish heresy...

>> No.15583062

>>15582600
>Paul is a Judaizer
But when it's convenient, he's the evil Gentile who took all the Jewishness out of Christianity. Make your mind up, fuckers. Stop using Paul as a scapegoat for diametrically opposed positions and own up to the fact you guys just want a purely-speculative Jesus created in your own image.

>> No.15583074
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15583074

I don't understand the attraction of gnosticism. Christianity itself teaches knowledge of God and a way to mystical contemplation/θεωρία. But Christianity has actually produced great saints who have done and said great things. Who believes in gnosticism besides vain intellectuals?

The arguments against gnosticism are very old, she was one of the first heresies. Even the apostles saw that those ideas were "in the air" and a threat to orthodoxy. I've noticed that online pseudo-gnostics like to pretend that they're resurrecting something secret and forgotten when, in fact, every point of gnostic teaching has been covered in depth by Christians arguing against gnostics with extensive quotes. There's a morbid attraction to things that are "secret" or "forbidden". I'd encourage anyone interested in gnosticism to read Irenaeus "Against Heresies" to start.

>> No.15583167

>>15583074
Because you worship the creator of this world and, by extension, the creator of evil.

It's really rich for you to complain that gnostic has no real lineage when your church did everything in its power to eradicate them. Here's why some people are attracted to gnosticism, and why they might be sympathetic to its devaluation of the world and worldly powers: because they didn't burn those who disagreed with them at the stake

>> No.15583185

>>15582600
>the absolute state of Protestants

>> No.15583282
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15583282

>>15583167
>Here's why some people are attracted to gnosticism, and why they might be sympathetic to its devaluation of the world and worldly powers: because they didn't burn those who disagreed with them at the stake

>> No.15583300

>>15583074
>I don't understand the attraction of gnosticism.
I'm unironically convinced that it is the same demons who helped spread all of the early heresies acting up again in the modern world.

>> No.15583301

>>15582600
Sounds like something Nietzsche said in Der Antichrist.

>> No.15583311

>>15583074
>There's a morbid attraction to things that are "secret" or "forbidden".
That strikes at the heart of it.

>> No.15583315

>>15582764
>diametrically opposed to the church as worldly organ of power
And what power did the Church have at the time that book was written? What power were they opposing? Christianity was a persecuted semi-underground sect wielding no power.

>> No.15583329

>>15582939
>But Paul is the anti jew?
Shhh it doens't fit their deluded meta-narratives of a "subverted faith" to mention the historical fact that Peter was the Jewish supremacist whilst Paul was the champion of the Gentiles who ensured Christianity became a Greek & Latin religion.

>> No.15583339

>>15583167
I won't even get further into this ''evil'' demiurge since you are too intellectually feeble and too sentimental so as to understand any reasonable, logical, metaphysical point.
I just want to point out that gnosticism has always been present in the most popular secular views. You can see it in modern physics. The gnosticist attitude is purely that of subversion.

>> No.15583344

>worship the same idealist god
>follow the same idealist commandments
Semitic tradition stems from the experience of the ancient israelites of being kicked around the near east for centuries and lacking any agency to speak of. European paganism, on the other hand, was firmly rooted in the material reality of its practitioners, who (excepting the celts, who had largely been subsumed into other cultures prior to the arrival of messianic judaism) were very much masters of their respective domains. The gods of the Celtic, Germanic, and Greco-Roman pantheons were all far closer to their worshippers than that of any semitic sect, and were reasoned actors with knowable motives unlike YHWH.

Idealism is a semitic introduction to the western world and it lies at the root of all our problems. It's a totally foreign system to peoples who were highly pragmatic and materialist for most of their existence, and we have spent every century since its introduction grappling with it's unattainable standards, irrationality, and inflexible absolutism.

>> No.15583346
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15583346

>still believing in gnosticism
>still giving worship to an idol
>still presupposing that Christ is not God and does not control His teaching in order to prove your silly vain philosophy
Repent.

>> No.15583358

>>15583344
>Idealism is a semitic introduction to the western world and it lies at the root of all our problems
maybe just like literally every other serious metaphysical thought?

>> No.15583360
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15583360

>>15583074
How could anyone be a Gnostic after Plotinus BTFO'd them?

There can not be two principles of being, it's incoherent. All comes from One.

>> No.15583390

>>15583358
>serious
>metaphysical thought
Pick one

>> No.15583398

>>15583315
As doctrines homogenize around a power structure, they expel those elements that aren't conducive to the consolidation of that power structure. Remember the Cathars. The Catholic Church is the Church of Satan.

Just the fact the nascent Church had a concept of heresies means this was the case. Early Christian groups were nowhere near as homogenized in their interpretation of the scriptures as your reptilian bishops would have you believe.

>>15583339
You don't have any arguments because you let daddy Irenaeus think for you. Inversion =/= subversion.

>>15583360
>autistic rationalists trading the goodness of God for mathematical elegance
Pathetic.

>> No.15583405

>>15583344
>Greco-Roman gods
>not semitic
you're a retard my friend

>> No.15583407

>>15582626
>>15582648
>>15582782
>>15583282
It depresses me that there is an actual living person behind these posts who sits at his computer for hours at a time doing nothing but copying and pasting people’s replies with an attached image from the Wojak folder on his computer. Seriously what has to happen to you in your life that you became this pathetic? I’m imagining someone who has absolutely no one who loves or cares for them, or even enjoys their company, other than their mother. They’re probably depressed, and really hate themselves, vent all of their anger online hiding behind anonymity, and everytime they Wojakpost they get this fleeting illusory feeling of superiority, they get to experience the feeling that they’re better than someone, when in reality they’re the worst of the worst, the lowest of the low, an incredibly pathetic individual who failed at almost everything in his life. I sincerely hope all Wojakposters find their way out of the spiral of hatred they’re stuck in.

>> No.15583411

>>15583344
Idealism (the identity of thought and being) began with Greeks you braindead larper

>> No.15583412

>>15583074
It appeals to the isolated nature of the world today. Nearly everyone I talk with holds some sort of view that they’re superior and can’t help but talk down about other people. When you’re so far disconnected from your own sinful nature and the true nature of other people, it seems like all you can experience is part of a delusion. It’s a weak delusion that’s to some degree consciously recognized, which seems connected to the widespread idea that we live in a simulation like Gnosticism speaks about. Gnosticism is elitist with how it categorizes people into groups based on who’s to be “saved” or not, depending on whether they lack souls or not.

>> No.15583413
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15583413

Gnostics are just a variation on the modern atheist theme. Their life looks no different than one of a bugman-like college professor who does nothing but waste his life to read pseud works.

>> No.15583417

>basing conclusions on Pauline writings

>> No.15583418

>>15583398
How do you want me to argument against such a stupid idea of le evil demiurge when its defensers are filled with puerile sentimentalism?

>> No.15583424
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15583424

>>15583407
>It depresses me that there is an actual living person behind these posts who sits at his computer for hours at a time doing nothing but copying and pasting people’s replies with an attached image from the Wojak folder on his computer. Seriously what has to happen to you in your life that you became this pathetic? I’m imagining someone who has absolutely no one who loves or cares for them, or even enjoys their company, other than their mother. They’re probably depressed, and really hate themselves, vent all of their anger online hiding behind anonymity, and everytime they Wojakpost they get this fleeting illusory feeling of superiority, they get to experience the feeling that they’re better than someone, when in reality they’re the worst of the worst, the lowest of the low, an incredibly pathetic individual who failed at almost everything in his life. I sincerely hope all Wojakposters find their way out of the spiral of hatred they’re stuck in.

>> No.15583429

>>15583329
He was a fucking Pharisee. You don't get any more Jew than that.

>> No.15583433

>>15583424
Gave me a chuckle to be fair. You’re too predictable.

>> No.15583437

>>15583405
>Greco-Roman gods
>semitic
You're a retard my friend

>> No.15583440

>>15583418
Not who you were responding to. Imo, gnosticism works as a psychological myth where the demiurge represents the ego and the pleroma the unconscious, true self. Gnostics can’t defend the idea of a demiurge as a non-metaphorical entity because they don’t understand it

>> No.15583446

>>15583418
>christoid reptile can't comprehend why hoomans might be bothered by the problem of evil
satan apologist. slit yourself

>> No.15583448

>>15583440
>psychologized new age gnosticism
nah. the demiurge is an umbrella term for the system of cosmic determinations that are responsible for struggle, suffering, unrest, evil, death, decay, dissatisfaction, etc.

>> No.15583450
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15583450

>this is what the modern gnostic looks like
>converted to judaism, prays to greco-roman idols, was an ordained catholic priest who will still do mass if you ask him to even though he doesn't believe in "church christianity"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axTKJ2_ckW0

>> No.15583452

>>15583437
are you even aware how much the greeks got from egypt and near eastern traditions? i dont think i need to comment on the romans regarding this issue, do i?

>> No.15583456

>>15582600
I think that's more or less correct. Not familiar with the Zoroastrian angle, though. I'll have to look into it.

>> No.15583459
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15583459

>>15583446
>might be bothered by the problem of evil

>> No.15583464

>>15583446
so do you want to discuss the ''problem'' of evil? are you open to a conversation devoid of sentimentalism? i reckon it would be unprecedented

>> No.15583468

>>15583413
>americans generalizing their faggot mutt politics everywhere
leave

>> No.15583479

>>15583452
The Egyptian religion comes like the Roman and Greek religion from an Indo-European root. Sumeria had close to zero influence.

>> No.15583482

>>15583464
tell me why a good God would allow this

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/watchingrobertpickton88015/transcript-of-shirley-lynette-ledford-audio-record-t3312.html

>> No.15583484

>>15583398
>plotinus
>rationalist
absolute retard alert

>> No.15583492
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15583492

>>15583450
Holy kek. Why do young people fall into these traps? Why not just pray to Christ and be done with it?

>Proficient in ten languages, Dr. Boaz has had an intense spiritual journey, from Catholicism—a tradition in which he is ordained priest—to Judaism. Equipped with this rich Catholic and Jewish background, Dr. Boaz believes in the power of syncretism and interspirituality.

>Dr. Boaz studies the relationship between ancient religion and modernity. Besides his scholarly work, Dr. Boaz runs a spiritual coaching practice in New York City, where he helps people awaken the spiritual self and achieve a full, meaningful life.

>> No.15583493

>>15583452
>egyptians are semitic
orphism was an export of Egyptian mystagogy, the Babylonian/Sumerian influence is limited at best

>> No.15583496

>>15583448
What’s responsible for most of the unnecessary pain in the world? It seems fundamentally due to human actions. New age shit and psychology sucks, I agree there’s no such thing as an ego or an actual unconscious true self. These are merely metaphors for something that actually exists that can’t be expressed. the abstract thing that “ego” inaccurately refers to is what makes people constantly act evil and cause most of what’s in the umbrella you referred to.

>> No.15583504
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15583504

>>15583492
>a tradition in which he is ordained priest
At least he went further than Basednon.

>> No.15583507

>>15583413
The term "bugman" has now been extended beyond consumerism, beyond even materialism, to include the literal anti-materialism espoused by mystics and spiritualists. Fair to say it no longer has any meaning.

>> No.15583512

>>15583482
>your god allows bad things
can you think in a clear and non-literal, concrete way or are you too ridden with a judaized mentality? god bestowed life and intellect to you and you corrupt your mind, you live a life worth not living. but why would god simply not obliterate this wasted, degenerate existence of yours?

>> No.15583516

>>15583507
>anti-materialism
There is nothing anti-materialist in gnostics who waste their time on hedonism and 4channel. Nothing is anti-materialist about trusting materialist atheists to give you a correct reading of "true Christianity".

>> No.15583518

>>15583167
There's no such thing as evil, read Leibniz's Discourse on Metaphysics.

>> No.15583520

>>15583496
no, this is a christianization of gnosticism, the problem is not man but man within the cosmos, you're just dressing up original sin in jung-isms, man's difference from the cosmos exalts him ABOVE it (because he perceives the amorality of nature), it doesn't subordinate him to its program

>> No.15583521

>>15583516

>> No.15583522

>>15583479
>The Egyptian religion comes from an Indo-European root.
read a book

>> No.15583527

>>15583512
just answer the question without these sugary cliches

>> No.15583529

>>15582600
>He seemed to advocate a return to Zoroastrianism synthesized with a gnostic-Christianized German Idealism
Criminally based. May asha fall upon him.

>> No.15583544

>>15583518
Evil is real and has a qualitative existence, as distinguishable from beauty/goodness/love as these things are from evil. Evil is not a neutral absence or void. It is an actively hostile force.

>> No.15583548

>>15583450
how i know he has no clue about what he's talking..... even egyptians were monotheists

>> No.15583549

>>15583520
>man’s difference from the cosmos exalts him
“Man” is part of cosmos. In the pleroma there’s no quality to consciousness other than pure being. This talk of humanity being superior is materialist

>> No.15583551
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15583551

>>15583544
>Evil is real and has a qualitative existence

>> No.15583558

>>15583522
Damn, I forgot that all Egyptians were actually sub-saharan Jews. My fault.

>> No.15583561

>>15583549
no, gnosticism isn't humanism, it doesn't exalt the physical man but the inner man. The physical man (body and soul) is either an instrument of the archons or just destined to die with the body

>> No.15583563

>claims to be a non-materialist
>believes in evolution
lmao. gnostics are pathetic.

>> No.15583565

>>15583544
'Evil' is your misunderstanding of reality, there is no evil.

>> No.15583567

>>15583548
No, they were henotheists, don't judaize them

>> No.15583572

>>15583563
>what is dualism
cretin

>> No.15583579
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15583579

>>15582600
So what was different between Christianity fmvmbefore Jesus and Christianity after? Also didn’t the Greeks and then Romans play a heavy role in its development?

>> No.15583585

>>15583565
Then account for the qualitative properties of evil (which even children recognize) in your system, or just stop posting.

>> No.15583590

>>15583544
>Evil is whatever exists in opposition to my hedonistic indulgence
Hmm...

>> No.15583592

>>15583579
*before saul I meant

>> No.15583595

>>15583561
The “inner man” has no definition because it is a fullness shared between all. There is no valid existence it stands in relation to that can define it. To call it exalted, superior to the cosmos is a materialized depiction of the immaterial, and ultimately a misconception of it

>> No.15583596

>>15583459
>those despicable bugpeople have reproduced
>le based tradlarper army on /lit/ has touched 0 women between all its members

>> No.15583602

>>15583585
What properties of evil?

>> No.15583631

>>15583527
as expected this will be a tiring conversation (just like all the ones i had with other gnosticists). i'll reiterate what is already implied in the post of which you were too dumb to understand: existence, power were bestowed to man. he could live freely following the Spirit, but chose to be bound to himself, to the world and to petty and transient impulses. now he is condemned to either cherish the numinous potentiality within himself and attain the Spirirt or to live accordingly to his previous decision of degeneracy, mundane affairs and employ what he was bestowed with to his own arbitrary desires rupturing all his spiritual path (cessation of telos, break of micro-macrocosm reunion). that is why the ethical/moral unfolding of the holy and spirit are now coalesced. gnosticists try to break with this process by an idealized notion of a purity of the sacred apart from its implications in the world, thats why they all disregard this place completely and end up in self-flagelation, utter debauchery, denying the world as le matrix, le dream (just reinforcing my previous post that gnosticism and modern physics are hand in hand)

>> No.15583643

>>15583567
read uzdavinys and the platonists, different deities have no separate being, existence from the one deity, just like nous is no different from the one essentially

>> No.15583650

>>15582626
>>15582648
>>15582776
>>15582782
>>15583282
>>15583551
Seeing as you have nothing to contribute please refrain from posting, alternatively, kill yourself.

>> No.15583654

>>15582600
>wrong
>wrong
>wrong
>wrong
>wrong
>wrong

>> No.15583655

>>15583558
>my intellectual scope is actually so narrow i must spout another ethnocentric retardation

>> No.15583659

>>15582600
Intrigued bump.

>> No.15583667

>>15583590
>poopoopeepe

>>15583631
too anthropocentric. man can't be blamed for the cosmos, man's evil is a subset of cosmic evil, not the other way around. Honestly believing it is the other way around is just too small-minded to take seriously.

>> No.15583670

>>15583074
>>15583412
>>15583062
Finally some brains in this thread

>> No.15583671

>>15583565
How do you explain the events in those Paranormal Activity movies then?

>> No.15583683

>>15583631
That's a load of horsepucky and you know it.

>> No.15583685

>>15583565
>>15583518
THESE

gnostics are too retarded to understand anything. seriously, these people are the exactly same as atheists and other intellctually nullified people.
evil has no existence in itself, it only exists when it parasitizes existence itself (which is good), evil has only intellect and power when it parasitizes both intellect and power (which are good in themselves as well).
evil is a corrupt will, it is perversion (PER - VERTERE) of natural, essential will

>> No.15583691

>>15583685
You are clearly not a Christian.

>> No.15583695

>>15583685
>privatio boni 101
I can't wait til you guys just graduate past baby's first metaphysics

>> No.15583711

>>15583667
you are an absolute retard and should cease to engage in any sort of intellectual discussion. you have to resort to the same idiotic secularized view of antianthropos. the duality of good and evil is actualized with man. read genesis, but try reading it like 40 times maybe you'll grasp a hint of all of what underlies the book.
im telling you in bona fide, just move along

>> No.15583725

>>15583695
are you actually retarded? it is not simply lack of good, only good exists, when you waste your life like you do you, the life you have don't stop being good, it is good because it is what it is - life. but you waste and pervert it

>> No.15583732

>>15583711
>completely misunderstands basic gnostic concepts because he hasn't read them
>thinks an uncompromising spirit/hyle dualism is secularizing
Follow your own advice, I mean it

>> No.15583739

>>15583062
>>Paul is a Judaizer
>But when it's convenient, he's the evil Gentile who took all the Jewishness out of Christianity.
I think he was neither, really. He was a con artist who appropriated the early Jesus cult and reshaped it to fit with his own larger goals and ambitions. Since he was not a disciple and never even met Jesus, he had to add his own spin to things. "I may not have known Jesus in the flesh, but you fuckers didn't either, because Jesus is literally Yahweh and only took the form of your dead brother for a few years." Slimey little huckster. You can just tell by the way he asks for money in his letters.

>> No.15583743

>>15583725
kek I can tell I'm challenging your hand-me-down papier mache ontology. Keep reading

>> No.15583760

>>15583725
>life is beautiful bro omg butterflies so pretty
Kek every day something has to die for you to continue living, life is a negative force. Dont be so naive

>> No.15583763
File: 116 KB, 645x729, 122.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15583763

>me big brain u smol brain

>> No.15583765

>>15583732
literally impossible. you cant even get anything i post, your brain is simply too rotten and end up distorting anything everytime
irredeemably braindead

>> No.15583768

>>15583725
>only good exists
Does this have to do with an advice to let what an unenlightened person (ie me) conceives as being evil alone, to not give it any power?

>> No.15583771

>>15583763
>>15583765
POTTERY

>> No.15583774

Christians and Gnostics seething

>> No.15583783

>>15583765
I get it and it isn't very compelling.

>> No.15583794
File: 60 KB, 907x1360, Platonist Theodicy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15583794

>>15583482
Read Proclus. Christian theodicy follows from his.

>> No.15583795

>>15583062
It's really incredible isn't it? The explanation is pretty simple though: you decide what you want Jesus to be, and then Paul is the opposite of that.

>> No.15583804

>>15583743
>>15583760
>kek
poltards are attracted to gnostishit now and can't give any retort to what i said

>>15583760
>nooooooo things cant die, this life cant be good if things dieee
do you hate or not this world?

>> No.15583825

>>15583760
Decay is a consequence of tense. Being and form is tenseless.

>> No.15583827

>>15583407
My mother's dead but other than that I'd say pretty accurate.

>> No.15583829

>>15583804
>nooo things just can't live forever in gods light they have to die life has to be a shonen anime nooo
Are you ready to get serious yet?

>>15583825
It doesn't fucking matter what you call it, God created it.

>> No.15583832

>>15583429
People change their mind anon. Especially when God literally appears to them and tells them "you're wrong".

>> No.15583836

>>15583398
Try actually reading Plotinus before committing to Gnostic mystery cults. You have a brain, use it. Gnosticism is not philosophically viable and Plotinus demonstrated why.

>> No.15583846

>>15582602
This. You think the risen Christ is gonna let the Church be subverted?

>> No.15583848

>>15583829
And? God crates being and becoming. Being is tenseless, becoming is being with tense.

>> No.15583849

>>15583836
I've read him and am not satisfied by emanationism. What now?

>> No.15583855

>>15583507
To regard the "bugman" accusation charitably, I think its use in this context refers to people treating various philosophies as experiences to be consumed with virtually zero regard to their truth or even usefulness.

>> No.15583860

>>15583829
>Are you ready to get serious yet?
refute any of the four or five posts upon which i made relative effort to craft in this thread

>> No.15583869

>>15583849
>not satisfied by emanationism
>IS A GNOSTICTARD
holy shit i swear you guys cant be serious

>> No.15583873

>>15583522
The effective rhetorical technique here isn't to try and make logical arguments, but to convince him that the Egyptians were "cringe" or "kiked". Then the entirety of their history and worldview will suddenly shift, in his mind, to being "semitic", which is just another term for "bad".

>> No.15583880

>>15583860
I already gave you two things to think about: qualitative evil, and the problem of hunger/nutrition, but your responses to both were "nuh-uh".

>> No.15583886

>>15583869
Not all gnostic sects were emanationism. I gravitate towards Manichaeism/Sethianus. Honestly, Valentinus' system is just Neoplatonist with extra steps and a pinch of Christianity.

>> No.15583913

>>15583880
what about qualitative evil? be more specific
>problem of hunger/nutrition
accentuated unrest (already implied in becoming even before the fall - BE COMING) and natural sacrificial muthopoese which is a very interesting aspect of reality not only in fallen state but in traditional muthopoeses and even in theology

>> No.15583937

>>15583886
yeah and the non emanationist ones dont make any sense. how can there be two absolutes

>> No.15583939
File: 71 KB, 770x440, tuatha.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15583939

>>15583655
I mean it kind of makes sense for someone who ascribes to dualism based on Discord chats to regard everything he doesn't like as "nigger jew murder demons" and everything he likes as "righteous Aryan gods".

>> No.15583944

I see a lot of people mentioning Plotnius and how he BTFOs Gnosticism. Can someone give me a quick rundown on him and how he did it? Maybe some links to his relevant works if they’re online.

>> No.15583950

>>15583913
If evil is a neutral absence of good, then there's no reason why there should exist qualities and characteristics that we instinctively associate with evil.

It doesn't matter what your explanation for hunger is, you said life is an intrinsically positive phenomenon, I'm telling you it is negative.

>> No.15583960

>>15583937
As if Plotinus is any better. If there is only the One, in "what" is its light expended and depleted? By your distance from the One? Distance, what? So the One's overflow is extended in space, even figurative space? What?

>> No.15583982

>>15583074
>I don't understand the attraction of gnosticism
Gnosticism, even beyond all the stuff about the pleroma and the demiruge etc., is fundamentally the belief that thinking deep thoughts ("gnosis") will lead to some higher state of being inaccessible to everybody that doesn't think deep thoughts.

So as you would expect it tends to lure people who don't have much going on aside from what's in their heads.

>> No.15583993

>>15583950
Cult rituals in which men wearing goat masks rape kill dozens of babies are not "evil". They are just very very VERY not-so-good. Think about it.

>> No.15584023

>>15583993
Cant tell if you're joking, privatio boni lemmings probably believe this on some level though.

>if I just call it something else then it'll stop being what it manifestly fucking is

>> No.15584031

>>15583074
can you bet your life on your claims? or are you irresponsible bullshitting faggot who never been punished for lies?

>> No.15584036
File: 110 KB, 750x1000, 1579495674491.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584036

>>15583886
>I gravitate towards Manichaeism/Sethianus.

>> No.15584048

>>15584036
When the soijaks post soijaks, what a time to be alive

>> No.15584052
File: 118 KB, 342x512, creation.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584052

>>15583950
>you said life is an intrinsically positive phenomenon, I'm telling you it is negative.
Literally demon worship. Jesus Christ created life and blessed it, saying it was good. Repent.

>> No.15584054

>>15583950
as i said over and over again evi lis not just a lack of good, there is no lack of good.
yes life is intrinsically positive (in a sense only compared to the negative aspect of the fallen world) just like existence and intellect (im afraid youre confounding their phaenomenal instances with their purely ontological statuses). so there is no lack of good because it is the only thing that actually is.
i know that the way i put it sounds like a negation of evil altogether, but i just want to emphasize a more metaphysical (or foundational) aspect of reality, wherein evil has absolutely no place.

>> No.15584055

>>15584036
Yeah bro lots of Sethians in Silicon Valley lol

>> No.15584057

>>15583544
there's no evil. there's vatican, there's CIA

>> No.15584061
File: 73 KB, 1200x800, 1576827189198.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584061

>>15584023
>what it manifestly fucking is

>> No.15584063

>>15584023
Sounds like something the British, with their gift of understatement, would have invented.

"Good lord, Caroline. This genocide isn't particularly pleasant, now is it?"

>> No.15584067

>>15583496
what is "necessary" pain in the world lol?

>> No.15584072
File: 8 KB, 293x172, 1586852111526.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584072

>>15584063
>Sounds like something the British, with their gift of understatement, would have invented.
>"Good lord, Caroline. This genocide isn't particularly pleasant, now is it?"

>> No.15584074

>>15584052
Christ didn't preach attachment to the world.

>>15584054
There is a place where everything you're saying is true, but it isn't here, and what "here" is is a polluted image of that higher place. It's like you're asking me to believe the Sun, if it's far away enough, will suddenly start emitting black light. I don't think so. Just bite the bullet and split cosmos and light down the middle. This world eats light.

>> No.15584086

>>15583446
so you believe in satan? lol

>> No.15584088

>>15584031
Gnositcs are weaklings who cry about how they were removed from this earth, while Christians bravely die for their faith all the time and give it even more life by doing so.

>> No.15584095

>>15584074
>Christ didn't preach attachment to the world.
How is creation being blessed by God and called good an """attachment to the world"""? Also, you don't know what Christ preached, you have not studied His actual words.

>> No.15584096

>>15584088
name a single Christian who has died for his faith in the last 100 years

>> No.15584097

>>15584086
Yes.

>> No.15584111

>>15584096
Plenty of them in the middle east and africa today. Also, do you americans not know of the mass persecutions during the soviet revolutions?

>> No.15584113

>>15582600
>did I get that right?
What you have said is interesting, and speaking only of it in itself, may have some value in the sense of a poetic expression, but you are wrong. There is really no singularly "right" Christianity in the sense of the different sects, like protestant or Catholic. But you are wrong in thinking Jesus was an anti-OT, this is factually a mistake, though you can say Paul may not have exactly been Christs beliefs, or any of the sects. Traditionally and that is historically however, the Catholic church is the Christian religion, but the greatness of that religion is not limited by its worldly foundation.

I believe that a return of Christianity to Zoroastrianism synthesized with a gnostic-Christianized "German Idealism" would lose what Wagner had called "the purely human", though not singularly a thing of the human, it is rather an awareness that the centre of the Christian religion rests on the heart of man, rather than a pragmatic-logical truth necessarily present within it. Almost like the difference between a Schopenhauer and a Hegel, but of course this is a radically simplifying comparison. What your professor apparently advocates for is already found within the Christian religion and tradition, and of course the unique identity of a Mithra must necessarily forever hold its uniqueness, we must say that this image of a suffering Christ is far superior. And Gnosticism seems to me that it would too much lose the real emotional character of Christianity, with its extreme emphasis on the transcending divine. A Carlylian sense of God unifies these things best, as Wagner himself became aware of in his later life.

>Only the love that springs from pity, and carries its compassion to the utmost breaking of self-will, is the redeeming Christian Love, in which Faith and Hope are both included of a—Faith as the unwavering consciousness of that moral meaning of the world, confirmed by the most divine exemplar; Hope as the blessed sense of the impossibility of any cheating of this consciousness.

>> No.15584118

>>15584095
So creation isn't fallen?

>> No.15584121

>>15584086
Yeah, gnostics worship him. They give worship to an idol and he in turns tells them how bad God actually is for creating them.

>>15584113
>Paul may not have exactly been Christs beliefs
Prove it with actual argumentation, you gnostic bugman.

>> No.15584124

>>15584118
'Fallen' already presupposes a change in the mode of being from the blessed creation.

>> No.15584133
File: 11 KB, 600x800, 1585349959271.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584133

>>15584113
>>did I get that right?
>What you have said is interesting, and speaking only of it in itself, may have some value in the sense of a poetic expression, but you are wrong. There is really no singularly "right" Christianity in the sense of the different sects, like protestant or Catholic. But you are wrong in thinking Jesus was an anti-OT, this is factually a mistake, though you can say Paul may not have exactly been Christs beliefs, or any of the sects. Traditionally and that is historically however, the Catholic church is the Christian religion, but the greatness of that religion is not limited by its worldly foundation.
>I believe that a return of Christianity to Zoroastrianism synthesized with a gnostic-Christianized "German Idealism" would lose what Wagner had called "the purely human", though not singularly a thing of the human, it is rather an awareness that the centre of the Christian religion rests on the heart of man, rather than a pragmatic-logical truth necessarily present within it. Almost like the difference between a Schopenhauer and a Hegel, but of course this is a radically simplifying comparison. What your professor apparently advocates for is already found within the Christian religion and tradition, and of course the unique identity of a Mithra must necessarily forever hold its uniqueness, we must say that this image of a suffering Christ is far superior. And Gnosticism seems to me that it would too much lose the real emotional character of Christianity, with its extreme emphasis on the transcending divine. A Carlylian sense of God unifies these things best, as Wagner himself became aware of in his later life.
>>Only the love that springs from pity, and carries its compassion to the utmost breaking of self-will, is the redeeming Christian Love, in which Faith and Hope are both included of a—Faith as the unwavering consciousness of that moral meaning of the world, confirmed by the most divine exemplar; Hope as the blessed sense of the impossibility of any cheating of this consciousness.

>> No.15584137

>>15584124
A christian who doesn't believe in a fallen creation. Come on.

>> No.15584149

>>15584121
Paul was himself the founder of gnostic sect, bugman.

>> No.15584155
File: 50 KB, 674x538, 1560869801107.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584155

So what do the 4channel gnostics actually do for worship? It seems like modern gnosticism is just an atheist outgrouth where all they do is cry about how bad God is for not controlling the world in precisely the manner they subjectively wish for.

>> No.15584159

@15584137
You think it was always fallen (which is self-refuting and nonsenseical), I believe it fell. Learn to read.

>>15584149
Yes, worshipping YHWH who came down and became fully human is so gnostic.

>> No.15584164

>>15584155
>it seems like
You don't know what you're talking about.

>> No.15584169

>>15584074
you know i agree with you. yes this is a fallen world, yes evil abounds here, yes christ didnt teach attachment to this world. and yes, we are not attached to it, we simply recognize what it is. >>15583631 this post of mine explains what i'm saying and how i agree with you, how man chose to live among evil.

>> No.15584172

>>15584067
The pain that brings you to greater understanding. Becoming
Contrast it with atrocities and abuses from people in power

>> No.15584174

>>15584072
seething britfag

>> No.15584175

>>15584159
Why is it self-refuting and nonsensical?

>> No.15584177
File: 91 KB, 402x512, creator.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584177

>>15584121
>Prove it with actual argumentation, you gnostic bugman.
I disagree with him retard, but I was progressing in my point, and it is silly to think Paul didn't come to his own conclusions.

Everyone creating an image of what they want Christ to be, and then saying Paul is the opposite; it seems to me one must affirm Paul as a teacher of Christ and from this a more traditional sense of Christianity and God.

>> No.15584178
File: 56 KB, 524x384, 1574222015029.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584178

>>15584155
>all they do is cry about how bad God is
literally this. it's just 'new-atheism' in a different form. you'll see them transition to 'sufi islam' in 5-10 years.

>> No.15584193

guys, to speak about god, satan, things you have never seen is pure schizophrenia, even if they exist. you lie to yourself. what you have read is not knowledge, knowledge is what you have seen, experienced, perceived. why are you afraid to admit that bible is toilet paper? your dad is gonna punish you?

>> No.15584195

>>15584177
>silly to think Paul didn't come to his own conclusions
Only if you are an atheist who does not believe in the Holy Spirit who guided and taught Paul.
>Everyone creating an image of what they want Christ to be
Everyone unenligthened by the Holy Spirit, yes. Gnostics especially. It's ironic that they forego the only source of true enligthenment in pursuit of vain philosophy.

>> No.15584200

>>15584169
Fine then, I believe man chose evil, and can be evil, but he is not responsible for evil as a PRINCIPLE or potentiality. Evil exceeds him, he doesn't exceed evil. You're saying the world is the condition of the sacred, gnostics say the sacred only-ever-is what leads beyond the world (and isn't it?)

>> No.15584214

>>15584121
>gnostic bugman
Is that like a carnivorous vegan?

>> No.15584220

>>15584164
Disprove me. What do you to for worship? 4channel posts do not count. How is you life different from a newager or an atheist?

>> No.15584221

>>15584096
without mentioning asian and african christians, but european ones: florensky, schmorell, hendrikova, hotovitzky, there are many anon

>> No.15584224

>>15584178
>radical division between spirit and matter
>man carries within him an acosmic spark
>this world is a system designed to capture and tyrannize light

Yes I can totally see how this is a natural outgrowth of nu-atheism

>> No.15584236

>>15584200
he is not responsible for evil as a principle because it doesnt exist, evil is not a principle.
>You're saying the world is the condition of the sacred
dont know what you mean but in a sense it is only the condition of the sacred insofar as we live in a fallen world and the sacred is by definition already defined

>> No.15584239

>>15584224
>>radical division between spirit and matter
nu-atheism believes the same, since matter is the only thing in existence, it is radically divided from spirit.
>>man carries within him an acosmic spark
nu-atheism believes the same, all should be treated equally because they are an 'individual' we need to 'respect'.
>>this world is a system designed to capture and tyrannize light
nu-atheism believes the same, the system needs to be fought because it is oppressive to pluralistic faiths, the evil monotheists dont want our totally not decadent idolatry because it's actually the original truth.

>> No.15584248

>>15584195
I don't dislike Gnosticism but yes I agree it isn't true Christianity... but do you really meant to tell me that what you subjectively choose is the arbiter of the truth of the Holy Ghost? Come on anon. I'm not saying there isn't a Holy Ghost or that it does not guide one, but that's different from being so stupid. As if the Holy Ghost deals in every detail, and you best not swear or you'll go to hell! And the likes of that tier of small-minded obsession and zealotry. I consider this a truer profanity, to claim the Holy Ghost in such instance!

>> No.15584255

>>15584239
You're really fucking stretching my dude.

>>15584236
How can man choose a non-existent option? Why aren't we talking about the problem of gloopydoop then, since man can choose and fall into non-existent non-predicable nothings?

>> No.15584257

>>15584214
Yes.

>> No.15584272

>>15584255
>How can man choose a non-existent option? Why aren't we talking about the problem of gloopydoop then, since man can choose and fall into non-existent non-predicable nothings?
Don't you know? Evil is the most real non-existent!

However realistically, it is wise to consider evil a nothingness with body.

>> No.15584281

>>15584239
There are no gods, fairies or supernatural entities of any kind, you delusional schizo. Get a fucking grip.

>> No.15584290

>>15584255
man chose to deviate from god, man chose the world, man chose himself.

>> No.15584292

>>15584272
evil are good people talking about evil. what they don't like they claim evil and they don't like everything because they don't have sex.

>> No.15584295
File: 225 KB, 537x850, pentecost.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15584295

>>15584248
>I consider this
I don't see why I should be interested in what you subjectiely consider. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church, to God's chosen people, to the apostles and their sucessors. That's who I trust and follow. Outsiders do not make determinations on how He works since they did not receive Him and have no guidance.

>> No.15584305

>>15584224
>>15584255
>>15584281

>>15584239 this poster is absolutely spot on
no wonder why modern physics is neognosticism

>> No.15584308

>>15584290
>man chose the world
God shouldn't have created the world if he didn't want that outcome. Tough shit.

>> No.15584313

>>15584292
coomers like you should stay far away from philosophy

>>15584290
Ah, so man's freedom/selfhood is the principle of evil, so is man's freedom derived from God (which means the potentiality for evil lies in Him) or outside of Him (which is a dualism)?

>> No.15584320

>bunch of historically and theologically illiterate takes

>> No.15584321

>>15584313
you mean you are good and I am evil right?

>> No.15584327

>>15584305
If I ever write a book on this stuff I will introduce a distinction between authentic acosmic gnosticism and this pseudo-gnosticism that people like you and Voegelin are seeing in modern scientism. They are not the same, and you need a good eye and lots of study to distinguish between both and more importantly, understand their common origin/principle

>> No.15584328

>>15584308
God looses absolutely nothing from you turning away from the only source of life and perishing. It's your call and your choice.

>> No.15584335

>>15584327
>distinction between authentic acosmic gnosticism and this pseudo-gnosticism
No such thing. All types of gnosticism are born from a demonic rebellion against our Lord Jesus Christ and His blessed apostle Paul.

>> No.15584337

>>15582813
If the philosophy of religion professor had more than a meme tier understanding of christianity, he would have read augustine and known that zorastrian style dualism is absent from christianity.

>> No.15584343

>>15584328
>God creates the potential for evil and then blames the creations that are guaranteed to actualize it
All christoids are archon bootlickers.

>> No.15584347

>>15584343
>potential
>actualize
Paganist logic is beneath God. He does not follow your cringe dialectics.

>> No.15584351

>>15584337
Like the dualism between God and the waters of the Deep right? More than one scholar will tell you that qualifies as a judaic dualism.

>>15584335
t. christoid brain stem fungus

>> No.15584353

>>15584328
It sounds like you're actually trying to defend the old geezer. God knew EXACTLY what he was doing at every step of the way. Pretending his behavior is in any way excusable just makes you look weak.

>> No.15584360

>>15584347
It was good enough for Aquinas, I think it's good enough for you lol

>> No.15584364

>>15584328
if I were your father your ass would be fucking red for lies.

>> No.15584374

>>15584308
god doesnt have a plan a, plan b, plan c, he contemplates eternity. the process of time is just a moving image of that eternity. this is basic stuff come on

>>15584313
free will is not freedom per se, freedom is having one will with god, theandric acitivity. man's free will would be a realtive freedom (it is ambiguous, it is positive and negative) and is derived from creation itself, from the very divine freedom: it is only accomplished in creating a risk: another freedom

>> No.15584381

>>15584353
>>15584364

>Pretending his behavior is in any way excusable

Why should the Gentiles say,
“So where is their God?”
But our God is in heaven;
He does whatever He pleases.
(Psalm 115:2-3)

If He takes away, who can hinder Him?
Who can say to Him, ‘What are You doing?’
God will not withdraw His anger,
The allies of the proud lie prostrate beneath Him.
(Job 9:12-13)

>> No.15584383

>>15584374
So, once again, that freedom contains the latent possibility to transgress itself in/through man. So God's freedom (in man, through man) is confirmed by evil? Holy moley

>> No.15584387

>>15584343
>>15584353
>>15584364
i believe that anon didnt express himself very well, but i also do believe ye are very intellectually limited to also understand what is implied in his post. it is expected since a lot of people here cherish a literal and concrete reading of things.
read >>15584374

>> No.15584388

>>15584351
More than one scholar is retarded

>> No.15584390
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15584390

>>15584360
Aquinas was a paganistic brainlet who got trapped in dialectics and could not contend with Eastern Christian wisdom.

>> No.15584397

>>15584383
created freedom is not god's (uncreated) freedom. can you read things clearly for once?

>> No.15584406
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15584406

>>15584351
>More than one scholar will tell you

>> No.15584407

>>15584397
Who cares? Man's power to do evil is derived from an uncreated divine freedom then, do you even understand the problem we're talking about here?

>> No.15584408

>>15584295
Listen you fucking idiot, saying "I consider" does not mean it's unfounded. I'm saying that it's completely degenerate and disgusting to claim the authority of the Holy Ghost to everything you believe you are right about, or every variable detail; for what is so variable at all! It's not just what I subjectively consider, because I believe it to be truth, and it's not like you're invoking "tradition" when you invoke the Holy Ghost; you're literally just calling anything you believe in to be venerated by the Holy Ghost.

And furthermore, you completely just changed the point of this conversation with your snarky "well actually I'm special because I have the authority of the Holy Ghost on my side" you ignorant fool! No modesty, no intelligence, no creativity and no wisdom. If you had the slightest bit of creativity, you would be able to see that the Holy Ghost does not care that I said it's certain Paul drew some ideas Christ himself would not have had. I'm not saying he isn't directly inheriting the beliefs of Christ, I do believe he did and I do believe in the Holy Ghost, but it's just being realistic to say what I have said.

>> No.15584419

>>15584408
You're weak and need authority to confirm/bolster your intuitions.

>> No.15584426

>>15584419
Holy projection
Not who you responded to

>> No.15584433
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15584433

Gnosticism is just a form of sola-scriptura subjectivist protestantism, which is just a form of atheism. They think they can just pick up scripture meant for God's people and interpret it away in whatever way they wish, like this anon reading in paganist dialectics/dualisms into Genesis
>>15584351
>Like the dualism between God and the waters of the Deep right?

It's not the least bit surprising that gnostic resurgences stem from this highly materialistic society which gave rise to all of these other forms of gnosticism to begin with.

>> No.15584441
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15584441

>>15584390
Eastern's just follow a different pagan philsophical school, which happens to be the based and correct one.

>> No.15584451

Jesus, addressing the Jews, condemns Yahweh, the Jewish demiurge:

>"You are of your father, the devil, and your will is to follow the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own nature. For he is a liar, and the father of lies." The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me." -- John 8:44-9

>> No.15584458

>>15584433
>anineposter
>tortured "intellectual"
>unread and uninformed
>gnosticism
>atheistic, materialistic, scientistic
Every time.

>> No.15584461
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15584461

>>15584408
>I'm saying that
We do not care what you say. A rebellious pagan outsider's word has no force behind it. You do not have truth.

>> No.15584468

>>15584407
>who cares?
good way of dismissing a good chunk of a founded argument.
power to do evil is different from freedom to do evil. power to do evil is derived from the freedom he has to employ power. i understand that the ''problem'' of evil lies in the risk of created freedom, which is the significance of both divine freedom and creation and freedom and creation themselves.

>> No.15584471

>>15584451
Anon, I don't dislike Gnosticism, but this is a laughable stretch. It's obvious he's talking about Satan.

>> No.15584473

>>15584461
Imagine needing worldly authority to give your spiritual intuitions a stamp of approval. You think truth is decided by history. You are weak.

>> No.15584478

>>15584468
So the power derives from the freedom which derives from the uncreated divine freedom... which means the power to do evil derives from God, lol. Or does man derive his being from God and his power from a source outside of God?

>> No.15584479

>>15584441
>ust follow a different pagan philsophical school,
Jesus Christ did not teach in a pagan philosophical school. The East subverted and purified pagan philosophy and used its machinery and language in theology, to better explain revealed divine truths. The West went the other way and fell into worshipping created human philosophy.

>> No.15584502

>>15584461
Look you fool, when I say "I say" it is an expression, I'm clarifying the word coming OUT of my mouth. Just like they come out of your mouth, that does not mean it is not TRUE, in the sense that it is accordance with the Holy Ghost or God above.

What I am saying IS in accordance with the Holy Ghost, because I am making a claim from its authority far easier and in accordance with it than you, I am saying that the Holy Ghost does not care in such a way as "the Ghost hath spoken through my mouth", and that you are an ignorant fool with no real appreciation of the Christian religion, only doing it out of a selfish desire for self-gratification.

You are a sick degenerate, proven by fact that you reply in such a way uncaring of the Holy Ghost; a "No, I am right" response for yourself. There is a definite Christian virtue and truth, but you do not know it. A blind zealot, and the Holy Ghost venerates this so.

But we shall not be so blasphemous as to venerate its presence in anything more than this purifying force of your own stupidity. A wish to help a misguided brother. You show no wish to do the same with your lack of a reply.

>> No.15584504

>>15584473
>You think truth is decided by history.
God is fully sovereign over history. No ruler takes power if God does not allow it. God also guides the Church and lets us know the truth directly, no other organization has such a privilege to be taught directly by the Holy Spirit. This is why you gnostics are so confused and can't speak with words of force on anything, it's always a subjectivist wishy-washy scheme which you yourself don't believe in fully. Your life is that of an atheist scholar, you don't even pray to your idols or act like they actually exist.
>You are weak.
All men are weak, but those who arrogantly do not submit to the One who is truly powerful are truly weak and will inherit this weakeness in eternity upon our resurrection.

>> No.15584511

>>15584374
>god doesnt have a plan a, plan b, plan c, he contemplates eternity. the process of time is just a moving image of that eternity. this is basic stuff come on
You are only making my point for me. There is zero excuse for his behavior. He created every detail of the world and mankind exactly the way he wanted it.

>> No.15584523

>>15584511
>There is zero excuse for his behavior.
Why would we need to "excuse" God's behaviour? Why does God need to answer to you? You don't understand your place in creation.

>> No.15584525

>>15582600
Paul literally got upset at the other apostles for being too Jewish and only preaching to Jews. Tf are you talking about

>> No.15584526

>>15584511
What of other realities; I know not. But we can only know that what is delivered to us, is always for the better, that we shall never lose faith!

>> No.15584533

>>15584504
>God pre-determined me to be right, and you wrong
This is just incredible.

>> No.15584534

>>15584471
He is literally saying that the God worshipped by the Jews (Yahweh) is Satan.

>> No.15584545

>>15584502
>but you do not know it
Sure, and a pagan gnostic subjectivist who follows modern scholarship over Christ's apostles knows it. I see.

>> No.15584548

>>15584523
Only tyrant's demand worship without being worthy of it, and only their bootlickers browbeat people with eyes in their heads.

>> No.15584550

>>15584523
>demiurge bootlicker is triggered

>> No.15584565

>>15584525
No, he didn't. He got mad at Peter because he wouldn't sit with him at lunch. That's the kind of petty faggot we are dealing with here.

>> No.15584578
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15584578

>>15584533
He predetermined the conditions for you to be able to repent this very second too. It's your choice and your will. If you want the truth, you hear Christ and recognize it. If you want vain paganism, you move towards it and engage in your own demise.

>>15584548
Christ is very much worthy of our worship. Who is if Christ isn't? He loved every single one of us before creation and still loves us even when we blaspheme and reject Him. A tyrant would not lay down his life you, but Christ did.

>> No.15584585

>>15584578
>YHWH solved the problem he created ex nihilo, be grateful
how's that boot taste

>> No.15584602

the hatred of Christianity just proves its narrative. it's amazing how the Gospel depicts the same people all deriding Christ for their own wrongdoing, as if Christ is responsible for their errors.

>> No.15584610

>>15584478
and it all goes back to what i have been saying since the beginning. as i said before as well and already expected, i knew it would be tiring.
if one has no freedom one has no power. the power is not evil in itself, nor the freedom. but one is free to do whatever he wants with his power (since he has freedom and/and therefore power) the evil does lies neither in freedom nor in power themselves.
im really tired of this anon, sincerely. can we just finish our conversation here? i'll not convince you, you'll not present any thing worth considering.

>> No.15584620

>>15584511
reading skills: 0
how does one create everythign in the minimum detail bestowing freedom?

>> No.15584629

>>15584610
you're just playing language games. so many words to say God creates the condition of possibility for evil.

If he is One and that-which-is, and if there is evil, evil is (one way or another) derived from Him. End of fucking story. And yes, we're done.

>> No.15584633

>>15584534
The Pharisees anon.

>>15584545
>he's so lacking in original thought he thinks I'm a "gnostic subjectivist" because the Holy Ghost doesn't acknowledge trivialities as just that
How do you purposefully misunderstand one so much? I AM A CHRISTIAN, you misunderstand Christianity in its origin, tradition and history, and through all this theology.

You are no Christian.

>> No.15584641

>>15584548
god loves you and all he wants from you is mutual love. yet he bestows freedom to you, he does not demand anything. you are free to worship satan (as you already do). this theme is repeated in the bible, theology, sermons, so many times. read a book

>> No.15584642

>>15584548
If he forced humanity to love him it wouldn't be free will. You have the choice to go against his will. But you can't be free from consequences, because he is the source of all life and everything that's not with him dies. That's exactly how death came to the world when Adam cut himself out of the vine which is God and Life and Being itself. The fire that purifies is the same that destroys, it depends if you strived to be gold or mere straw.

>> No.15584647

>>15584620
It's literally logically impossible.

>> No.15584652

>>15584633
>I AM A CHRISTIAN
>You are no Christian.
did you just excommunicate him? which church do you belong to and what authority do you hold?

>> No.15584654

>>15583482
Thou grievest where no grief should be! thou speak'st
Words lacking wisdom! for the wise in heart
Mourn not for those that live, nor those that die.
Nor I, nor thou, nor any one of these,
Ever was not, nor ever will not be,
For ever and for ever afterwards.
All, that doth live, lives always! To man's frame
As there come infancy and youth and age,
So come there raisings-up and layings-down
Of other and of other life-abodes,
Which the wise know, and fear not. This that irks —
Thy sense-life, thrilling to the elements —
Bringing thee heat and cold, sorrows and joys,
'Tis brief and mutable! Bear with it, Prince!

>> No.15584661

>>15584633
The Pharisees worshipped Yahweh just like all the other Jews, brainiac.

>> No.15584662

>>15584629
>language games
you're an idiot, im sorry to say that but holy shit.
just let me remind you creation came out of nothing.
>we're done.
thank the good God

>> No.15584669

>>15584647
so you agree with me you are a retard, thanks

>> No.15584672

>>15582837
based Beksiński poster

>> No.15584675

>>15584662
I made the movements you made years ago, please get out your 4chan tradcath reading cloister and engage with actually challenging works. I honestly recommend Schelling's Inquiry into the Essence of Human Freedom, he demolishes everything you've been saying in a handful of pages (either man's freedom is an independent power outside of God, or it is the power of God to transgress Himself)

>> No.15584676

>>15584602
"Christianity" has nothing to do with Christ. It was a mystery cult created by Paul as part of a money-making scheme.

>> No.15584683

>>15584642
when did animals cut themselves off from the vine? Or are animals punished for Adam's sin? How many pretzels you gonna twist before you just start selling them?

>> No.15584692

>>15584669
No, you are the retard if you think free will is possible in a world created entirely by God.

>> No.15584696

>>15584683
When Adam did. Adam was put in as a steward and high priest of the entirety of creation. Animals can't be "punished", as they always obey God's will at all times.

>> No.15584703

>>15584683
Adam was the lord of all animals, so the fall affected them too.

>> No.15584706

>>15583407
That doesn't bother me as much as the fact that I report those posts every single time I see them and they almost never get removed. Either the jannies don't see it or don't care. Which is lame.

>> No.15584711

>>15584696
So animals are being punished for a sin they are constitutively incapable of committing? Doesn't sound like a rational design. So the lioness that eats its cubs is doing God's will?

>> No.15584712

>>15584696
Tell that to my pit bull.

>> No.15584714

>>15584675
>either man's freedom is an independent power outside of God, or it is the power of God to transgress Himself
what do you think it means when i said:
>When God raises, outside of Himself, a new subject, a free subject, that is the peak of His creative act. Divine freedom is accomplished in creating this supreme risk: another freedom.
you can't objectify the original nothingness

>> No.15584720

>>15584703
what a retarded fucking cope. a good God would never punish all of creation for the weakness of one man

>> No.15584721

>>15584711
If you think animals are incapable of sin, you haven't really lived life.

>> No.15584730

>>15584720
But didn't he remove the punishment 2000 years ago to reward people for killing his son? Or an I thinking of something else?

>> No.15584732

>>15584714
lol this is just watered-down Neoplatonism. Evil exists because God is unconstrained and therefore his all-possibility necessitates the actualization of even the possibility of evil. So God's goodness is confirmed by evil

>> No.15584733

>>15584711
>being punished
They're not "punished". Being allowed to follow God's will at all times is a form of great bliss. Animals are in a better state than the gnostic atheist.
>Doesn't sound like a rational design.
It isn't. It's a supra-rational design.
>So the lioness that eats its cubs is doing God's will?
Yes. It shows us how fallen creation became because of us and allows us to feel more compassion for the animals.

>> No.15584748
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15584748

>>15584712
Do you honestly think God can not protect people from animals if He wishes so?

>> No.15584749

Gnostic are the elitist emos of Protestantism.

>> No.15584753

>>15584733
>nature is fallen
>but it's also a pre-determined bambi movie
This is so pathetically, noxiously naive.

>> No.15584767

>>15584748
No, he has the power to do whatever he wants. One of those things involves watching pit bulls tear people apart for sport. Another involves something related to foreskins and circumcision (don't remember the details, I always zone out in those sections). Basically, Yahweh has some kinks and That's a Good Thing. It's part of the mystery.

>> No.15584769

>>15584753
>"naive"
“Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”

>> No.15584773

>>15584732
>creation
>Neoplatonism

>Evil exists because God is unconstrained and therefore his all-possibility necessitates the actualization of even the possibility of evil. So God's goodness is confirmed by evil
Man was primordially unconstrained.
What do you fricking mean by God's all-possibility. God's goodness is not confirmed by anything, it is not conditioned.

>> No.15584785

>>15584769
>confusing the innocence of the heavenly child with slavish bootlicking
Bruh look at this dude.

>>15584773
Lmao, so who constrained him? Sounds very... demiurgic...

>> No.15584788

>>15584773
Lol nigger you literally just said divine freedom is accomplished by the risk of creating an independent locus of freedom that has the power to transgress it.

>> No.15584805

>>15584785
Freedom means that you can choose which lord you wish to follow. You can't be free from submission unless you're braindead. If you don't choose God you'll choose other masters.
>Thus, a good man, though a slave, is free; but a wicked man, though a king, is a slave. For he serves, not one man alone, but what is worse, as many masters as he has vices

>> No.15584817

>>15584805
No it doesn't, you can be free and essentially good - aren't the angels? Are christoids incapable of conceiving freedom without transgression?

>> No.15584822

>>15584785
>what constrained him
free will, which as i said before is a relative freedom (i hope you know what ''relative'' means.

>>15584788
and i explained to you the relation between freedom, power and will.

>> No.15584824

>>15584805
>today's Tom Sawyer gets high on wew

>> No.15584834

>>15584817
Angels worship God. If you don't worship him you'll end up worshipping some idol, like you're doing right now. Even nihilists worship the idea of nothingness.

>> No.15584835

>>15584822
So God refuses to constrain man by making the possibility of evil off-limits, but he gladly accepts the constraints of a relativized free will? Lol

>> No.15584837

>>15584817
can you first read the entire thread of posts? i mentioned theandric activity, free weill, created and uncreated freedom

>> No.15584843

>>15584817
>you can be free and essentially good
Only in the world to come when you are purified and fully attain God's likeness lost in the fall. Then you will only choose between multiple goods as the angels do, but right now you can choose to serve fallen angels and be a good gnostic instead of serving the Lord.

>> No.15584846

>>15584834
So make man an angel who worships God - or was God constrained to create beings like men? By who? By what? Lmao

>> No.15584853

>>15584843
>i have to work to be granted an existence he gives freely to angels
>literal metaphysical ponzi scheme

>>15584837
Not convincing.

>> No.15584856

>>15584846
Satan is literally a fallen angel who, by his free will, went against God.

>> No.15584862

>>15584856
And yet the angels that didn't remained free and good, but this is somehow impossible for man.

>> No.15584863

>>15584835
who accepts gladly the constraints of relativized free will? god? are you retarded?free will is not relativized, it is relative freedom which is a different thing.

are you going to keep me asking dumb, inefficient questions or will you refute and posit any positive claim? if the former i'd suggest you to read a book and dont waste my time

>> No.15584867

>>15584856
You don't actually believe that shit, do you?

>> No.15584869

>>15584863
All I see is you twisting yourself into pretzels to displace the responsibility of evil onto a creature an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God created ex nihilo. yawn.

>> No.15584871

>>15584853
what specifically is not convincing? put it here and explain why you dont find it convincing. can you do this?

>> No.15584882

>>15584862
It isn't impossible. Jesus Christ was the fruit from the Tree of Life who gave us the possibility to have eternal life and be eternally good.

>> No.15584890

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. He was criticized by other Apostles for "loosening up" Christianity during the Incident at Antioch for shrugging off dietary restrictions for example. That's why in iconographic depictions of the twelve Apostles Paul is positioned at Jesus' left hand and and Peter at his right, because Peter was the chief Apostle to the Jews and Paul was chief Apostle to the Gentiles. You know nothing of Ecclesiastical history or the Christian religion. I stopped reading your post about a quarter of the way through because it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about and are just spouting memes. Read more.

>> No.15584891

>>15584869
yet you didnt post a single positive claim in a discussion that we have been having for i dont know, 5 hours?
>god created ex nihilo
i think this is the ninth or tenth time i call you an retard/idiot/dumbfuck, you're really simply too stupid. farewell

>> No.15584896

>>15584871
I told you a million times what isn't convincing. And why would God deny me MY free will to fall on my own, why does Adam get to make the choice for me, and I'm the one who reaps what he sows? Demonic.

>> No.15584913

>>15584882
>God solves the problems he created
>omnipotent being can't just recall a fallen creation back into his power and start again

>>15584891
I posted the positive claim you retard, ten fucking times: if God is all there is, evil is his responsibility. End of fucking story. Nigger fucking rat.

Yeah nah.

>> No.15584915

>>15584853
>granted an existence he gives freely to angels
Humans in heaven are exalted far above any angel.

>> No.15584920

>>15584896
>unironically resorting to rhetoric employd by atheists with materialism-inclined mindset and reading of things
you are already fallen. you corrupt your intellect, your life is a waste.

>> No.15584921

>>15584891
>i think this is the ninth or tenth time i call you an retard/idiot/dumbfuck, you're really simply too stupid.
"But I say to you, whosoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment. Whosoever says to his brother, Racha! will be liable to a council. But whosoever says, You fool! will be liable to hell fire." -- Matthew 5:22

You are no Christian.

>> No.15584927

>>15584913
>recall a fallen creation back into his power and start again
Why do you presuppose this is better? We don't worship a cringe sci-fi timetravelling "god".

>> No.15584936

>>15584915
lame cope.

>>15584920
>You will be punished for something you didn't do and That's a Good Thing
I think daddy Ialdabaoth needs another pole polishing, get to it

>> No.15584943

>>15584896
>deny me MY free will to fall on my own
I think we're seeing exactly that play out in this thread. The gnostics deny Christ's gift to them and wish to fall into hell on their own merit.

>> No.15584944

>>15584913
CREATION EX NIHILO YOU FUCKING SUBHUMAN CANCER PIECE OF SHIT.
you're imposing temporality-atemporality distinction before the act of creation. nothing existed outside god BEFORE CREATION.

>> No.15584945

>>15584913
>let me tell you what God should have done
God gives us eternal life because of our own free will to love him, because love can't be forced. And like I said before, we earn eternal life because we' re grafted as a branch to the vine which is Life itself.

>> No.15584948

>>15584927
>omnipotent, omnibenevolent being prolonging the misery of his creatures by making man work his way up like a metaphysical debt slave
>annihilating a poisoned creation and giving man the paradise he lost out of petty creaturely weakness again

I'll take Door #2

>> No.15584955

>>15584936
>something you didn't do
You reject your own salvation. Who is forcing you to reject Christ right now?

>> No.15584961

>>15584944
>CREATION EX NIHILO YOU FUCKING SUBHUMAN CANCER PIECE OF SHIT.
You basically guaranteed yourself an eternity in Hell for that comment.

>> No.15584965

>>15584944
That's why evil is his responsibility lol. That is the presupposition of my argument, bro be honest, are you this fucking dumb out of your own free will or did God make you this way?

>> No.15584975

>>15584921
i beg you pardon, even if i offended satan i also beg his pardon somehow. but above all i hope god forgives me.

>> No.15584977

>>15584948
>""""I'll""" """take""" Door #2
>putting yourself above God
>making decisions for God
Demonic. Cringe. Repent.

>> No.15584984

>>15584944
>you're imposing temporality-atemporality distinction before the act of creation. nothing existed outside god BEFORE CREATION.
What does "before" even mean in an "atemporal" situation? You're spouting a bunch of muddle-headed gibberish.

>> No.15584987

>>15584977
>he works in mysterious ways bro

300 posts and this is the best christ-fungi can come up with

>> No.15585004

>>15584965
is it his responsibility because of a kenotic act of creating freedom? do you understand what freedom means?

>>15584961
if you are the anon to whom i said that i'm sorry and i hope god forgives me because i want both you and god to forgive me

>> No.15585008

>>15584977
Yahweh is the only evil demon at issue here. Read the Old Testament if you want a taste of what that sick motherfucker was into. Simping for him like a lost puppy is fucking pathetic.

>> No.15585017

>>15584987
>>he works in mysterious ways
Why would you expect God not to work in mysterious ways? How can you expect to understand Him when you reject His knowldge He gifts freely to you?

>> No.15585026

>>15584984
that is my point, jesus christ. temporality begins with creation. there is no before before creation. god is only all there is before creation

>> No.15585033

>>15585004
If you open the space for freedom, knowing full well it entails the possibility of evil, you are responsible.

Christ, even mortal couples baby-proof their homes when they're expecting, your God can't do that?

>> No.15585035

>>15582600
Nonsense. You and your professor are too rebellious to accept the truth and want to make one yourselves. This occurs due to the prevalence of will over intellect.

>> No.15585040

>>15585017
I know for a fact you wouldn't say this lame shit to someone who just suffered a tragedy

>> No.15585059

>>15585033
you're intellectually inept, you cant engage in any kind of metaphysical nuance. do yourself a favor and just find another thing to dedicate time.
there is no before and after in god, you are the guy who accused me of anthropocentrism when i was made a posted relating the place of man and creation in relation to god and what you do is to face god as a literal human being, you condition all human flaws and categories of thought onto him. you wasted 6 hours of my life, you said absolutely nothing, you just made me questions to which i responded ALL OF THEM.

>> No.15585065

>>15585033
Yahweh should have a sign on his desk that reads "The Buck *Doesn't* Stop Here. Sure, I made this whole mess in the first place, but don't blame me, blame yourself." What an embarrassment of a god.

>> No.15585073

>>15585059
im just repeating Schelling's objections to limpdick christian "theodicies", you can't respond to a single one. What does temporality have to do with any of this? Is this world a creation of God or isn't it? There is evil in this world, ergo God is in some capacity responsible for evil.

>> No.15585077

>>15585040
Believing people who suffer tragedies actually agree with this. They can't understand why these things happen to them, only God does and God is their only source of comfort. How silly of you to assume that people in such a long history of Christianity didn't understand or feel this.

>> No.15585085

>>15585073
>There is evil in this world
false presupposition. bugman "schelling" refuted in a single step, lol.

>> No.15585086

>>15585040
>>15585065
Who are you to judge God and know better? You are just a self centered person who thinks reality should revolve around your own feelings.

>> No.15585093

>>15585086
>>15585085
>nuh-uh
This is the power of christian intellectualism lol

>> No.15585103

>>15585086
Yahweh's handiwork is well-known to be shoddy, and in many cases, outright tacky. Look around.

>> No.15585126

>>15585093
>>15585103
>duuuude let met tell what God should have done cuz I don't FEEL good about life

>> No.15585130
File: 148 KB, 600x497, 15858481618620.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15585130

>>15585093
>This is the power of christian intellectualism lol

>> No.15585134

>>15585126
>i feel good about life so just ride the wave brooo

>>15585130
We know, we know

>> No.15585139

>shoddy, and in many cases, outright tacky
*looks at >>15585103*
perhaps you have a point...

>> No.15585143

>>15585073
>what does temporality have to do with any of this?
you're literally imprinting temporal thinking onto god.
>he is responsible...
AGAIN, HOLY SHIT AGAIN I'LL SAY IT TO YOU: freedom. do you understand this?
and we go in the cycle again, i mention freedom you'll insert both temporal thinking and condition onto god.
it's all in my previous posts, i refuted all your questions and you keep repeating them

>> No.15585157

>>15585143
I already answered these objections. You're tiresome. Peace.

>> No.15585166

>>15585134
My life is probably more miserable than yours, I live in a third world country where the wage is 200usd and I live off on less than that among other things and I'm not rebelling because I know my place as creature incapable of judging the creator. Do not dwelve into metaphysics and theology until you grow out of your pysche

>> No.15585180

>>15585126
I don't feel one way or another about it, really. But just as a neutral observer, it's clearly very low-quality work. I actually don't blame the guy for always wanting to pass the buck, and not wanting to put his name on such a debacle. Still pretty weak of him, though.

>> No.15585191

>>15585180
The problem is that creation is never fit for judging the creator.

>> No.15585205

>>15585191
>I brought you into this world, so i can take you out goddamnit!
When did you realize channer shitter Christianity is basically theologized boomerism?

>> No.15585212

>>15585157
>i already answered employing the very objections of which you referred
not to mention you're ignoring the issue regarding freedom.
im sorry for any offence, anon, sincerely from my heart. i hope i understand your dissatisfaction which will never be satisfied in this world and much less with things from it. may the monadic triadic God heal and guard you.

>> No.15585238

>>15585143
If anything, removing temporality only makes God more responsible for every aspect of every person's behavior and decision-making. If he just created the world at time t and then let it "unfold" through time, he could at least try to pretend he didn't know exactly what would happen. But God is outside time. He created the entirety of 4-dimensional spacetime including the careers and activities of every person who ever existed and ever will exist -- all in one swoop. He is 100% responsible for everything that ever happens in the world.

>> No.15585245

>>15585205
Again who are you to feel you know better than infinite goodness, infinite beauty, infinite justness and infinite knowledge? The source of all good, the perfect being. Not gonna reply to you anymore.

>> No.15585251

>>15585212
Im actually sorry for being a dick to you and insulting you. We're both trying to be better. Im very passionate about defending my intuition of the light from people who wanna take a shit on the punch bowl. But I know realistically that's not you. I wish I could be stronger than this, feeling the need to defend these ideas online instead of just being a star or teaching by example. It's very tiresome.

>> No.15585264

>>15585238
the world does not exist outside temporality.
i cant even believe we reached the point of my telling someone this.

>> No.15585266

>>15585191
Why not? Seems like an arbitrary prohibition.

>> No.15585275

>>15585264
You're contradicting yourself again. The act of creation, you said, occurred outside temporality because that's where God resides.

>> No.15585284

>>15585251
indeed it was not me, it was a mundane ego defending expressible ideas. and i forgive you in all honesty, i hope you do the same for me.
this world is cruel but there is only one absolute.

>> No.15585299

>>15585275
creation already implies temporality if not instantiate it (see created eternity as unity in the moment and the created world where multiplicity revolves around unity just like past and future are conditioned by the present/moment).
creation is not god, thats why god is outside time and creation within time

>> No.15585316

>>15585299
But in order to create the world, God had to be outside it. He created all of spacetime in one go because he is not himself constrained by spacetime.

>> No.15585317

>>15585284
Of course I forgive you. There have been times when I am calm and I'm able to express these ideas with the eloquence and equanimity they deserve, but when it comes to evil it's hard to stay that way. That's my failing. It's not like I literally thought you're some bumbling retard who wouldn't know truth if it bit him in the taint, I know how this stuff works, we got different systems and concept-pictures in our head, it's more just us talking past each other than any genuine incomprehension. I'm just tired of broadcasting negative, hateful energy

All I'll say is no gnostic hates life, they hate what the world does to life. I wish you the best.

>> No.15585331

>>15583795
Yeah basically. It's really sad but this is exactly their modus operandi.

>> No.15585443

>>15585317
> they hate what the world does to life
christians hate the same thing.

>I wish you the best.
likewise, anon!

>> No.15585464

>>15585443
>christians hate the same thing
The rest is a problem of definition, and doesn't warrant the vitriol I've been spewing. Good luck anon.

>> No.15586567

>>15583429
So was Nicodemus bro, and he also believed. Your point is moot

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