/lit/ - Literature

What is singularity in buddhism,?

>>15423231
Is fapping wrong? And have you reached enlightenment?

>>15423231
What is Nirvana? hardmode: explain it in your own words and not a bunch of slimy Buddhist quotes

>>15423231
How do you feel about retarded westerners thinking buddhism is just a philosophy bro

>>15423260
according to:
1. Conventional truth: yes, people, social agrees that masturbating is wrong, morally
2. Ultimate truth: no. masturbating is neither right nor wrong, since the characteristic of the 'masturbating' dharma is no-characteristcs (all human, all animal, all objects are equal, because everything has no characteristics)

>>15423231
Are you white

>>15423231

Do you fart?

>>15423260
>>15423260
theravāda collection on monastic law

monks’ rules and their analysis

monks’ suspension

1. The training rule on emission of semen


Preliminary ruling
‘Intentional emission of semen is an offense entailing suspension.’”

In this way the Master laid down this training rule for the monks.

Second sub-story
At one time monks ate fine foods, fell asleep without mindfulness and clear awareness, and emitted semen while dreaming. They became remorseful, thinking, “The Master has laid down a training rule that intentional emission of semen is an offense entailing suspension. We had an emission of semen while dreaming, and that involves intention. Could it be that we’ve committed an offense entailing suspension?” They told the Master. He said, “Monks, there’s intention involved, but it’s negligible. And so, monks, this training rule should be recited thus:

Final ruling
‘Intentional emission of semen, except while dreaming, is an offense entailing suspension.’”

Definitions
Intentional: knowing, perceiving, having intended, having decided, he transgresses.

Semen: there are ten kinds of semen: blue, yellow, red, white, the color of buttermilk, the color of water, the color of oil, the color of milk, the color of curd, the color of ghee.

Emission: making it move from its base—this is what is meant by “emission”.

Except while dreaming: apart from that which occurs while dreaming.

An offense entailing suspension: only the Order gives probation for that offense, sends back to the beginning, gives a trial period, and rehabilitates—not several monks, not an individual. Therefore it is called “an offense entailing suspension. This is the name and designation of this class of offense. Therefore, too, it is called “an offense entailing suspension.”

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-ss1/en/brahmali

>>15423375
No. I only cum, as I specified in >>15423358

>>15423348
you know you're asking a retarded westerner, right?

>>15423231
Have you read Burton's book which deconstructs and shows all the holes and mistakes in Nagarjuna's logic called 'Emptiness Appraised'?

>>15423358
>>2. Ultimate truth: no. masturbating is neither right nor wrong, since the characteristic of the 'masturbating' dharma is no-characteristcs (all human, all animal, all objects are equal, because everything has no characteristics)
This is hinduism, not buddhism.

>>15423276
Nirvana is the state of mind in which three poisons Greed, Anger and Ignorant all shut down competely
>>15423348
Theravada school establishes Buddhism as a moral philosophy system. but in Mahayana school, we are exposed to supernatural power and the cult, like Meditation, Mantra chanting, chakra looping,... and it's more like a religion
>>15423366
what color doesn't matter, what matter is salvation and enlightenment

>>15423231
I don't get the part about there being no souls. What exactly is reincarnated and how is it different from a soul?

>>15423420
He didnt ask if color matters or not. He is asked are you white

>>15423420
>Greed, Anger and Ignorant all shut down competely
So kinda like being on morphine?

>>15423418
you haven't read the Mahayana yet. try MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

>>15423423
>What exactly is reincarnated
craving
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

In buddhism, a being is craving. When there is no craving, emptiness is reached.
There is no soul because craving is conditionned: the condition for the arising of craving is feeling and the condition for the cesation of craving is lack of feeling


"And what are dependently co-arisen phenomena? Aging & death are dependently co-arisen phenomena: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation.

"Birth is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Becoming is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Clinging/sustenance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Craving is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Feeling is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Contact is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"The six sense media are dependently co-arisen phenomena...

"Name-&-form is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Consciousness is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Fabrications are dependently co-arisen phenomena...

"Ignorance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation. These are called dependently co-arisen phenomena.

"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be."

>>15423417
Not OP but 'refuting' scholastic philosophy by showing it doesn't confirm to modern logic seems a little like beating a retard at a game of chess.

>>15423423
a normal has 3 souls, 2 stupid souls and 1 smart soul. it's the smart soul that you call 'ghost'. when a person is grow in a woman's uterus, three souls come into the body and reincarnated there

>>15423453
well you see mahayanists like to pretend that Nagarjuna literally refuted all other views and show the contradictions in all other views and philosophies besides Nagarjuna's (I'm not joking) so it takes on a certain relevance here to show that Nagarjuna's logic is flawed too

Hinduism and Mahyana are a monistic Universalism: the totality exists and nothing else. There is no multiplicity, everything is absolutely identical.
They mix this view with a huge amount of rituals, worship, idolatry, mantras, deities, chanting,entertainment with lengthy Scriptures with thousands of verses, sacrifice and sacred objects, and rules for lay people in order to create a religion.
For the Hindus and mahyanaists, people have the knowledge that they have a true nature, but people are misguided on what they take as their true nature. This is why the Hindus say that people are already enlightened, they just do not know about it... The true nature of people is not the 5 senses or their objects, but the mind itself with theworld [loka] itself identified with the cosmos, or their deification of this, ie their Brahma or their Buddha or non-duality, and when people realize this they are enlightened. The way to realize this is by relying on lots of sacrifice, chantings and rituals, also on material objects which magically purify the minds for them, like sounds, logic, mantras, little beads, amulets.

It is only when there is a alledgedly good creator [a god or just ''nature''] that it makes sense to ask the usual question ''why the cosmos produce things which do not know that they are the cosmos?'' ie ''why some good god did not get people to be born directly enlightened? instead of being born unenlightened which produces lots of suffering?''
So far the Hindus have no answer to this ''problem of evil''. The Hindus keep replying with their main thesis, ie ''because people do not know their true nature, which is pure being and cannot be described'' and that's their answer...


in Buddhism, there is no non-duality, people do not have a true nature, people are not the cosmos, people are not Brahma, people do not come from Brahma, people are not nibanna, people do not come from nibanna, people are not Buddha, people do not come from a buddha, people are not their mind, people are not loka, people are not born already enlightened. In Buddhism there is only craving for pretty things and the pretty ideas of having ''a true nature'' and there is a lack of craving for pretty things and pretty ideas. People get enlightened when they stop craving for those. The way to get enlightened is to purify the mind, however not with useless chantings and rituals nor with magical objects, unlike the Hindus do, but with the mind itself, ie all the time inclining [with the mind] the mind towards what the buddha calls good qualities and then directly knowing the mind as it really is, which is anicca, dukkha, anatta [contrary to what the hindus say], which is the condition for dispassion, dispassion which is the condition for liberation, liberation which is the condition for direct knowledge that dukkha is ended.

>>15423231
Is Buddhism explicitly atheistic (i.e. rejecting the idea of a god) or simply agnostic?. I have heard both arguments

Did the Buddha ever teach that the soul does not exist?
what is the nature of nirvana?
Can you direct me to any criticisms the Buddha had of the Indian philosophy popular at his time?
What is your opinion on the diffect schools of Buddhism? specifically Tibetan, Zen Theravada

>>15423417
Not OP - what's the basics of Burton's argument?

>>15423656

>David Burton, who informs the reader that he is undertaking his study as a Buddhist seeking to understand the tradition to which he is committed, has sought to put Nāgārjuna's philosophy of emptiness (śūnyatā) to the test of critical reason. The result, according to Burton, is a resounding failure: Nāgārjuna's arguments, he claims, are generally fallacious, and their most significant conclusions philosophically untenable.

It's on lib-gen if you want to read it

>>15423492
The Abidharmakosha by Vasubandhu specifically rejects the idea of a creator. It's the basis of Indian and Tibetan abidharma. So Buddhism does reject a creator God. There are powerful entities, but these are samsaric and mortal.

>>15423665
Ta. I'm not paying £80 for a physical copy.

>>15423672
It's important though to note that Buddha doesn't offer any convincing arguments against the existence of a supreme God who is unaffected by samsara; and in the debate he has with Brahma-baka in the Pali Canon Buddha uses his supernatural abilites to turn invisible and read Brahma's mind which allows him to convince the watching audience that Buddha is right, but he never explains why such a God couldn't exist

>>15423665
>>15423417
Isn't this the guy who handwaves away the Two Truths Doctrine because it doesn't sit with Analytic Philosophy, and thereby concludes that Emptiness means that nothing exists? In that case, yeah, he's right, the Two Truths Doctrine not being present would make Emptiness be absolute nothingness, but the Buddha explicitly says it's not that (that's "annihilationism"), which is why the Two Truths Doctrine is a thing.

>>15423492
It's non-theistic. Gods, deities, spirits, they can't do the work for you, you have to do it yourself. Zeus, Yahweh, Perun, Indra, Amaterasu, maybe they're real, maybe they aren't, who cares, doesn't matter (for the goal Buddhism sets out to accomplish). They're sentient beings, they're impermanent (many are utterly deluded because they live incredibly long lifespans, however), they need Buddhism just as much as you. Vajrapani, one of the Wrathful Protectors, is a Greco-Indian Buddhist Syncreticism of Hercules, and is explicitly believed to be a deity who protects Buddhists (there are a few of these).

>>15423684
This is the same problem that Shankara runs into, however, just in reverse: if your thesis is that there's some God out there that is unchanging, totally permanent, completely eternal, and that we have no way of interacting with it in any way, shape, or form, and it has never and will never interact with the world in any shape or form, then proving it exists or does not exist is impossible because any way of doing so would require interacting with it. Ignoring any "interaction fundamentally results in a two way change so it can't actually be eternal and permanent then" stuff, you've completely sealed off any way of proving it by saying that it doesn't interact with the world.

At that point, does it even matter if it exists or not? If you can't get at it to make yourself live forever in some form (because it's completely incapable of ever interacting with humanity) then who cares if it exists or not from the Buddhist perspective, and if you can't get at it to interact with it for ANY purpose, who cares if it exists or not from any perspective?

>>15423704
>Isn't this the guy who handwaves away the Two Truths Doctrine because it doesn't sit with Analytic Philosophy, and thereby concludes that Emptiness means that nothing exists?
No, he goes out of his way to specifically address multiple Buddhist interpretations of what Nagarjuna's philosophy and sunyata means, and then he examines the consequences of each of those specific interpretations, and a part of his critique has to do with Nagarjuna's attempted refutation of nyaya and not anything to do with the two truths

If I'm already content because I regard the world as an illusion, is there still a point to Buddhism?

>>15423766
In the sense of "you're cool with samsara as it is and don't want to leave it yet"? Some things in it make you happier, or feel better, in a mundane sense. A lot of people are helped by meditation of various kinds.

>>15423766
if you are never ever sad, then no. But since you are not enlightened, you will be sad sooner or later and so you can try buddhism

>>15423759
>he examines the consequences of each of those specific interpretations
Do you have any examples?

>>15423704
>the Two Truths Doctrine is a thing
I quite like Ronzompa's criticism of the two truths, desu

Did the Buddha ever teach that the soul does not exist?

what is the nature of nirvana?

Can you direct me to any criticisms the Buddha had of the Indian philosophy popular at his time?

What is your opinion on the diffect schools of Buddhism? specifically Tibetan, Zen Theravada

>>15423755
>This is the same problem that Shankara runs into, however, just in reverse
It's not a problem for Shankara though, because Shankara is not trying to logically convince skeptics and his writings are addressed to Hindus who already accept the existence of God
>then proving it exists or does not exist is impossible because any way of doing so would require interacting with it.
Shankara doesn't try to come up with arguments that singlehandedly prove that God exists, he just notes that other explanations for the cause of the world other than God such as the Vaisheshika atoms, the Samkhya pradhana and the Buddhist dependent-origination etc contain too many problems and run into too many contradictions to be the actual cause of everything, unlike God
>Ignoring any "interaction fundamentally results in a two way change so it can't actually be eternal and permanent then"
I disagree, but Advaita denies that there is any real interaction anyway and says that in absolute reality Brahman alone is as the one without a second, and that all this is just Brahman appearing as not Brahman via his power of maya, so that objection would be a non-starter against Advaita as Advaita doesn't admit that Brahman ever has any interaction with anything other than himself anyway.

>>15423935
>you've completely sealed off any way of proving it by saying that it doesn't interact with the world.
Again, Advaita doesn't predicate its legitimacy on its ability to "prove things" to people so they don't care.
>At that point, does it even matter if it exists or not?
Yes, because it's intrinsically connect with liberation from samsara
>If you can't get at it to make yourself live forever in some form (because it's completely incapable of ever interacting with humanity) then who cares if it exists or not from the Buddhist perspective, and if you can't get at it to interact with it for ANY purpose, who cares if it exists or not from any perspective?
The Self already is Brahman, the Self cannot "get at" itself or "interact" with itself. Wanting to get at or interact with a splendid God in the sky is dualistically presupposing that Brahman is different from one's innermost self, which is spiritual ignorance. It matters that Brahman exists, because if there is no Brahman and no Self, then liberation from samsara is just an annihilation and extinction of existence and consciousness. Someone can try to cope by saying "well I never had a real self to begin with so it's technically not being annihilated" but it doesn't change that they are still seek to obliterate themselves from existence. Anything that is created and has a beginning at a certain point in time is not truly eternal and is subject to ending, ergo if there is truly a permanent liberation from samsara it would have to already be an eternally existing fact or were it to later be created or emerge it would be subject to change, decay and reversal. The Upanishadic doctrine of the hidden inner Self whose essential nature is bliss and liberation provides the bridge that allows one to directly experience God and the theoretical framework which explains how one can achieve an already-existing eternal liberation by realizing that it is one's essential nature and had been all along.

>>15423900
>>15423900
>>what is the nature of nirvana?
that's philosophy, so meaningless, so no answer. Buddhism is not a mental gymnastic by and for rationalists

>>15423900
>Did the Buddha ever teach that the soul does not exist?
the buddha teache emptiness, ie paticcasamuppada
http://suttacentral.net/dn15

>>15423900
>>Can you direct me to any criticisms the Buddha had of the Indian philosophy popular at his time?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sama%C3%B1%C3%B1aphala_Sutta
For instance the buddha says the jain view is trash in https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html

>>15423804
I accept whatever samsara brings, basically. Not in a hurry to leave it.

>>15423838
Even sadness doesn't really get to me. I am able to see through it as it were, or see it as a movie, not as something that demands more action than a shift in perception.

>>15423863
It's taking a whole hour for me to download on lib-gen for for some reason, but when it does I will post examples

>>15423963
But do you have cravings or not?

>>15423231
Does objective morality exist?

>>15424018
Nirvana and the path to nirvana does not depend upon the human's opinions, which is what humans call objective.

>>15423935
>>15423944
You've missed my point, I was just using Shankara's "There isn't a self, none to be found, none at all, but there actually is" argument as an example. If the argument is that something does exists, but it's hidden so far that it cannot be found, and it axiomatically cannot interact with the world in such a manner that it could even BE found, then saying
>yeah where's your proof that this thing that you can't interact with it exists doesn't actually exist??
is silly, because you can neither disprove nor prove its existence, because it axiomatically cannot be interacted with. Secondly, if this entity's existence is effectively equivalent to its non-existence as far as the Buddhism is concerned (Because it cannot be used to "make yourself impermanent" as it cannot be interacted with), why does the Buddha need to disprove it? Perhaps such an entity does exist, but because we can't interact with it, we can't use it to interfere with the goal of Buddhism, so it's a completely pointless exercise.

>>15423473
>So far the Hindus have no answer to this ''problem of evil''.
Read more.

>>15424010
Yes, but it doesn't matter. Indifference to desire and being with no desire are technically different, but for practical purposes, appear the same to me.

>>15424201
Well the difference is enlightenment, especially if you craving pleasures through the 6 senses, that's 100% non-enlightenment. If you have no cravings for those, but would like to keep being reborn, you would be a ''no-returner''.

>>15424031
>"There isn't a self, none to be found, none at all, but there actually is" argument as an example. If the argument is that something does exists, but it's hidden so far that it cannot be found, and it axiomatically cannot interact with the world in such a manner that it could even BE found
That's not what Shankara says, he says that the Self cannot be witnessed as an object of thought due to it's very nature as the transcendental ground of consciousness in which subject-object distinctions seem to appear, but that doesn't mean that it is completely removed from or unknowable to us because the Self is directly and intuitively experienced in spiritual illumination; and furthermore we can infer that it exists by the nature of how our consciousness works and how it is different from the mind and through how it allows us to witness the activity of the mind as a object we are aware of. To say that the Self doesn't exist results in all sorts of contradictions and problems where on is forced to come with all sorts of hair-brained explanations to explain away the disconnection with how we actually experience our consciousness to be one persisting continuum.
> Secondly, if this entity's existence is effectively equivalent to its non-existence as far as the Buddhism is concerned
It is not "practically the same as non-existence" since it can be directly experienced and inferred from how our awareness works.
> why does the Buddha need to disprove it?
Did I say that Buddha needed to disprove it? No I didn't, I was just pointing out that he doesn't offer any real arguments against it. The only reason I even made that clarification was because I have seen Buddhists before wrongly try to portray Buddha as arguing against and refuting that position (which he really doesn't do to any depth in the PC) and cite things like his debate with Brahma-Baka as proof.

>>15423863
>>15423759

>>15423231
If there is nothing at the root of everything, how come we're experiencing "something" right now?

>>15423231
discord . gg/mHm2Da4

>>15423231
How long do I have to meditate before the real crazy shit happens?
>at 5 minutes my skin tingles
>at 10 minutes the voice tries to Socratic dialogue my worst traits
>at 15 minutes I feel a bodily calmness but my mind wanders almost every split second, as in it is worse than at the beginning

>>15424546
I've gotten some pretty interesting images and experiences whenever I go for more than 45 minutes. It's difficult to get there, but it definitely gets weird.

>>15424026
Can you prove this claim with material evidence?

>>15423409
Imagine if you needed a belief system to dictate when or how you cum

>>15423231
are there traps reborn in the pure land?

>>15423231
did you know that sticky said
>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/

>>15423231
If there is no self or soul that is reincarnating, why would one wish to avoid rebirth? Doesn't that ultimately mean there is no rebirth, since there is no self to be born-again? How would one ever stop or leave the cycle or rebirth if there is no self that is reborn?

>>15424546
Simple mind-clearing meditation probably wont do anything unless you do it for a long long time. Though even with vipassana, you probably need a long time and strong dedication.

>>15423900
>Did the Buddha ever teach that the soul does not exist?
conventional truth: he did teach the soul exists
ultimate truth: there is no soul
>what is the nature of nirvana?
conventional truth: Nirvana is the state of mind in which greed, anger and ignorance all shut down completely
ultimate truth: the nature of Nirvana is no nature
>Can you direct me to any criticisms the Buddha had of the Indian philosophy popular at his time?
read MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna
>What is your opinion on the diffect schools of Buddhism? specifically Tibetan, Zen Theravada
different school are just different way to come to enlightenment. you should answer these questions instead:
1. why should we practice Bodhisattva Way?
2. how to practice Bodhisattva Way?
3. why should we petinent?
4. how to practice penitent?

i prefer Vajrayana, Pure Land and Zen schools of Buddhism
the Vajrayana practice will help erasing bad Karma and push you fast to be reincarnated into a Buddha land
the Pure Land practice is important too, since it help you reincarnated into Amita Buddha's land, if you chant his name 'Namo Amita Buddha' 10 times right at the moment before you die, you'll be reincarnated in Pure Land
Zen helps calm and heal your mind, it's important to have a healthy mind not only to work and study, but also for preparation of death. your state of mind at the end of your life will decide where you're gonna be reincarnated into

>>15423766
yes, practicing the Bodhisattva Way can help you escape from all suffering
>>15424018
yes, the Judge in hell will tell you how he thinks about you
>>15424885
anyone who chant the name of 'Amita Buddha' ten times right before death will be reborn in Pure Land
>>15425048
yes, but /lit/ is the best place for this kind of discussion
>>15425683
conventional truth: there are souls
ultimate truth: there are no souls
to stop the cycle of birth, practice the Bodhisattva Way

>>15426853
I've been trying to understand Madhyamika recently and I wonder if you can clarify.

>there is no soul
>the nature of Nirvana is no nature
arent these the extremes that Nagarujna hopes to avoid.

Like Nirvana is not extinction of being or some sort of union with reality.

>>15427500
read MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

>>15427500
you are going on the right track. keep going! good luck! ^^

What are the best English translations of the works of Nagarjuna?

>>15428515
https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=7B8F0E5AF8811398B94E6A51FFC44EB0

and

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra

>>15423409
>Semen: there are ten kinds of semen: blue, yellow, red, white, the color of buttermilk, the color of water, the color of oil, the color of milk, the color of curd, the color of ghee.
whoa really?

>>15423231
Why should I care about budhism?

Is Nagarjuna the Aquinas of Buddhism?

>>15424253
>Buddhists
Buddhist philosophers are not buddhists though.

>>15424806
What do you call proof and material evidence?

>>15428737
yes
>>15428768
Christianity, Hinduism, Islam.. shows you the way to Heavens
although going to Heavens is a bliss, but its joy is not permanent. if you use too much merit there, you can still go back to the reincarnation of Hell, Devil, Animal, Asura, Human,.. aka moving in the Samsara-the cycle of birth and death, and keep suffering

Buddhism shows you the way to escape Samsara, escape the cycle of birth and death and escape all sufferings completely.
you can get to Nirvana in two ways:
1. fast: practice the teaching in Theravada, help yourself and a limited amount of people, this could take one life, two life, or over thousand lives
2. slow: practice the teaching of Bodhisattva Way(Mahayana) to become a Buddha, with the average time of 3 Asamkhyeya Kalpas (uncountable amount of time, and uncountable loops of birth and death) by helping all beings escape the Samsara.

in Mahayana, there are two cheat sheets called Vajrayana and Pure Land Buddhism.

You can practice Vajrayana Buddhism by chanting the Mantras, like the Tibetans do. the Mantras will help shorten the cultivating time for you. have a try of 'Great Compassion Mantra' and 'Cunde Mantra'

or you can practice the Pure Land school teaching by chanting 'Namo Amita Buddha'. Amita has made a great vow that anyone who chant his name 10 times before death with focus will be reborn in his great land of Ultimate Bliss. in this great Pure Land, you will have all supports to become a Buddha, or say, you will definitely become a Buddha once being reincarnated into the Pure Land

>>15423231
I agree with Buddhism but don't apply it to my life. Am I going to christian hell?

>>15428973
doesn't matter what your religion is, if you lead a sinful life, you'll be reincarnated into lower worlds.

you should read more about the Five Percepts, Ten Percepts and Patimokkha

>>15428966
>Christianity, Hinduism, Islam.. shows you the way to Heavens
Hinduism is generally about being liberated from samsara and not reaching heaven, and the heaven (Brahmaloka) in Hinduism is more like the Pure Land in Buddhism where someone who pursues the path of liberation can still attain complete liberation when they are there. Please stop misrepresenting Hinduism

>>15428737
>The prostate gland can become infected, producing greenish blue semen, if it becomes enlarged or if bacteria begin growing around the area. The exact causes of this condition are often unknown.

It looks legit.

>>15429066
you can't escape the Samsara by worshipping cow, monkey or snake, etc. or the Gods who still poisoned by Greed, Anger and Ignorance. Hinduism made it weird and cynical for the followers to follow.

this doesn't happen in Buddhism, both Theravada and Mahayana, since Buddhists worship the Saints, Bodhisattvas and Buddhas who has liberated from the Samsara and free from three poisons Greed, Anger and Ignorance

>>15429127
>you can't escape the Samsara by worshipping cow, monkey or snake, etc.
The Upanishads don't teach this, they teach the literal opposite and say that worshiping the divine as something other than your own inner Atman is a sign of ignorance

>"And to this day, whoever in a like manner knows the self as "I am Brahman," becomes all this universe. Even the gods cannot prevent his becoming this, for he has become their Self. Now, if a man worships another deity, thinking: "He is one and I am another," he does not know. He is like an animal to the gods. As many animals serve a man, so does each man serve the gods. Even if one animal is taken away, it causes anguish to the owner; how much more so when many are taken away! Therefore it is not pleasing to the gods that men should know this."

- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.4.10.

>or the Gods who still poisoned by Greed, Anger and Ignorance.
Hinduism doesn't say that the Supreme God has any greed, anger or ignorance, the Upanishads state the opposite of this by stating that Brahman is unchanging consciousness-bliss without any sin (which includes being without greed, anger and ignorance etc)

>"(When) the Soul attains self-sovereignty, becomes lord of the mind, it becomes lord of speech, the lord of the eyes, the lord of the ears, the lord of knowledge; then it becomes Brahman;
its body is the boundless space, its essential nature is the reality, truth; its playground the life-force, its consciousness a state of bliss, it exists in serenity, in calmness, in peace, a state of immortality.

-Taittirĩya Upanishad, 1.6.2


>"Âtmā is all-pervasive, shining, bodiless, undecaying, without sinews, pure, and unaffected by sin. Âtmā is omniscient, awareful, transcendent, and self-existent. It has endowed the world with the powers of nature"

- Isha Upanishad 8


Again, I ask you to stop deliberately misrepresenting Hinduism, it's a violation of the Buddhist eight-fold path precept concerning right speech

>>15429281
>Again, I ask you to stop deliberately misrepresenting Hinduism

>>15429281
The vedas and the Upanishads say that worshiping and rituals create merit and are the path of nirvana.

Why are you gay?

>>15429281
Upanishads are commentaries on vedas, they are not canon.

>>15424215
How many stamps does that cost for next day soul delivery?

>>15423231
On scale one to ten, how full of shit buddhism is?

>>15423409

>STOP MISREPRESENTING HINDUISM BRO

>>15429394
kek

>>15429316
That's incorrect, the content of some of the Upanishads refers to the earlier layers of the Vedas and discusses some of the ideas in them, but despite this the Mukhya (primary) Upanishads are considered by Hindus to be fully revealed scriptures along with the Vedas which they are a part of. The Vedas and Upanishads are both a part of the same revealed body of texts called Sruti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aruti

The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad states that the Vedas and the Upanishads are breathed forth from Brahman

>"As from a fire kindled with wet fuel various kinds of smoke issue forth, even so, my dear, the Rig—Veda, the Yajur—Veda, the Sama—Veda, the Atharvangirasa, history, mythology, the arts, the Upanishads, verses, aphorisms, elucidations and explanations are like the breath of this infinite Reality. From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.

- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.10.

>>15429306
That's incorrect, the Upanishads say that rituals don't lead to liberation and they say that only knowledge of the Self/Brahman/Purusha (they are used interchangeably in the Upanishads) leads to liberation from samsara

>"Finite and transient are the fruits of sacrificial rites. The deluded, who regard them as the highest good, remain subject to birth and death”
- Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.7.

>"I know the great Purusha, who is luminous, like the sun and beyond darkness. Only by knowing Him does one pass over death; there is no other way to the Supreme Goal."
- Svetasvatara Upanishad 3.8.

>"The wise ones, having realised (Brahman) in all beings and having turned away from this world, become immortal"
- Kena Upanishad 2.5

>>15429394
that picture makes me depressed because i wish i could find a westerner that treats anything with the same level of reverence the people in that picture have for literal animals

>>15429394
to be fair, real hinduism was never about the worshipping hoo-hah. indians are just retarded and can't comprehend the metaphysical being behind their scripts.

>>15429400
animals are treated far better in the west

>>15429394
I don't deny that people pray to animals and so forth in India, the attitude of seeing everything as divine naturally follows as a consequence from regarding everything as the divine non-dual Self or Brahman. But the most important scriptures of Hinduism viz the Upanishads don't instruct people to do worship animals

>>15429402
>to be fair, real hinduism was never about the worshipping hoo-hah

>"The Rigvedic hymns are dedicated to various deities, chief of whom are Indra, a heroic god praised for having slain his enemy Vrtra; Agni, the sacrificial fire; and Soma, the sacred potion or the plant it is made from. Equally prominent gods are the Adityas or Asura gods Mitra–Varuna and Ushas (the dawn). Also invoked are Savitr, Vishnu, Rudra, Pushan, Brihaspati or Brahmanaspati, as well as...."

>>15429406
avoiding inflicting physical pain on something and treating it as an object of worship don't even exist in the same semantic universe you dolt

>>15429421
this

Bhakti is at the core of the Rig Veda. Western Hindus ITT just can't cope with the logical conclusion of Hinduism, ie as practiced by 99% of Hindus past and present.

>>15429423
if they really worshiped it, they would cherish their well being. The fact that they just let animals rest in filth (like they themselves do) ultimately defeats the purpose of their worship.

What does "self" or no self actually mean? I read Gowens book on Buddhism but I'm still confused.

>>15429429
Its what I've been trying to tell these internet Advaitins all this time who obssess with muh upanishads. Hinduism is far more than just 'metaphysical' speculation.

>>15423231
What books do I read besides the Dhammapada?

>>15429429
The Vedic texts impart instruction according to the goals of those who approach them. For people who are not ready for or who are not desirous of liberation, who are concerned with obtaining results, whether in the matter of acquiring a spouse, sons, wealth or heavens etc the Vedas prescribe rituals for those people to practice if they want to attain those goals. For people who have realized that results produced by work are transient and who are desirous of liberation the last portion of the Vedas in the form of the Upanishads impart instructions on how to attain liberation.

>>15429477
Just read the rest of the suttas within the sutta pitaka, bhikkhu boddhi provides some books that cut most of it down for the us (also check out walpola rahula), accesstoinsight is a great site to explore some suttas

from there continue with mahayana sutras/books listed ITT

I've been studying texts on various sites and books like the Vimuttimaga and Yogavacara manual. I heavily lean toward Theravada, but Vajrayana/Tibet has many esoteric teachings which fit within the framework of jhana/right samadhi.
The Buddha refused to talk about whether there was an undying soul which pervaded every rebirth. He thought such discussion to not be conductive to cessation. The Hindus taught the atman, the Buddha told his students to think the opposite essentially. I believe he did this because it simply was more conductive to relinquishment and cessation to do so.
There is a base observer which is essentially the mind alone, with no sense input, no thought, no desires. It is not a quantifiable "soul" or atman, it is a state which is built up through dependent origination. Being in this state or being in your last round of samsara is what nibbana/nirvana is.
I have the belief that this base state is the same throughout every single being. The experiencing person is the universe perceiving itself, if that makes sense. When one goes through rebirth they, by necessity of the universe perceiving itself, have to rebirth. You can strive to break samsara by entering nirvana, a state of unfettered dispassion and insight, and you want to because life, the universe and one's own body is stressful and borne of suffering. What the Buddha taught was Hindu heresy, and this highlights the many paths to enlightenment. One strives to set forth on this path during one or many lifetimes in order to either be reborn as one of many people on these differing paths, or to enter nirvana and, presumably, allow another base observer to continue the rounds. "You" would cease to rebirth as insects and dust motes or cosmic energy and would instead cease to be, while the universe carries on.

>>15429444
Internet advaitins is a good term for them because that's all they are. They have no connection to real hinduism.

>>15429477
read MagaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

>>15424546
I've never meditated, but do something similar when I sleep. After about 30 minutes the body tingles subside and you're left like your body is losing sensation, and during this process it feels like your limbs lose their geometry: limbs feeling more square, circular, flatter than they should, and then eventually the body fades away. After that happens my imagination starts to go to a lot of places, though it's all images, and there's an intense feeling of peace.

>>15428737
>there are ten kinds of semen
Damn they were really next level coomers. I only have one.

>>15424445
Thanks for the excerpt. The section about infinite regression and how can the subject also be empty is quite badly argued. Infinite regression isn't a problem, and should be expected in a system that explicitly supports infinite time, space, and rebirths. The issues with the subject are well covered in the tantric teachings imho.I wonder if Burton had been exposed to practical instructions from the Dzogchen or Mahamudra systems he might start getting past a mental block he seems to have in those sections.

>>15424505
Because there's no root getting in the way, things have the "space" to appear via dependent origination. They are not constrained by an essence defining them. Remember that dependent origination is equal to emptiness and vice versa. Tantric teachings explain how the clarity of the mind and existence are linked as an inherent property of the universe.

>>15429845
his argument really boils down to 'there must be something beyond a conceptual construction for a conceptually constructed universe to be consistent'. I really don't see how he would come to that conclusion since a self contained system could be consistent in itself. Another problem is that he actually rejects Nagarjuna's no-view stance since he regards the statement 'things have no svabhava' to be a knowledge claim, a bit of a leap there but his book is filled with sparse textual support and assumes Nagarjuna's for the most part and argues ad-hoc about them. A lot of what he's arguing seems to have already been explored, there is really nothing new he's shining a light to compared to something like Hayes' analysis of Nagarjuna's equivocation of svabhava (which was a more lethal blow to Nagarjunian dialectics).

>>15423231
What makes you an expert?

>>15429959
>his argument really boils down to 'there must be something beyond a conceptual construction for a conceptually constructed universe to be consistent'. I really don't see how he would come to that conclusion since a self contained system could be consistent in itself.
Looks like a good criticism of what Burton's written there. So many critics seem to be stuck with "but there has to be something concepts can get to".
I am a Buddhist and like Nagarjuna a lot, but it would be good to find a well argued critique of him. The best I've seen is actually from a Buddhist source, which is Rongzompa (in "Establishing Appearances as Divine") where he criticises the idea of there being two truths.

>>15430014
Interesting, I'll look him up later. I really appreciate how self critical most Buddhists are compared to Hindus, it seems like most of the stuff Hindus post to one up themselves come from Buddhists themselves.

>>15423231
1 - Why is every western buddhist just a larping obnoxious fuck who uses buddhism as an excuse to be as cynical and selfish as possible?
2 - Why did the Dalai lama claim buddhism would change if science showed it to be wrong when nothing about buddhism is scientifically verifiable (rebirth, karma, etc)

>>15429033
*PREcepts

>>15430055
Read this: https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_articles/establishing-appearances-as-divine/

>>15430079
>Rongzom’s tantric perspective
so not buddhism

Does this remind anyone of dr k?

>>15429443
"self" is a thing that exists on its own, independent, permanent and autonomous
"no self" is otherwise
a person can practice the 'Middleway philosophy' by viewing, judging the dharmas are neither "self" nor "no self"

>>15430079
>Tibetan
>Buddhism
Pic one

>>15430055
One good point he raises is how can relative truth be considered true if it doesn't withstand analysis? It's like a pack animal which can't carry a load.

>>15424253
>consciousness to be one persisting continuum
Consciousness itself cannot conclude that without memory and working discriminating mind. Without these faculties consciousness itself is not better than that of a rock.

>>15429400
Good that Westerners got rid of Third Fetter, at least partially.

>>15430063
>1 - Why is every western buddhist just a larping obnoxious fuck who uses buddhism as an excuse to be as cynical and selfish as possible?
you met the wrong peoples
>2 - Why did the Dalai lama claim buddhism would change if science showed it to be wrong when nothing about buddhism is scientifically verifiable (rebirth, karma, etc)
I have many spiritual experiences here in my country that could prove my belief is true. 'mind reading', 'soul, body', 'supernatural power', 'past life reading',.. you name it. unfortunately, you are living a country or a place that spiritual rituals don't get exposed much, and your merit is not enough to meet the right people. what i saw and heard about Buddhism cannot be described by any word or language.

i suggest that you should learn about Tarot reading to know more about the spiritual world, about aura reading and how magical the spiritual world is or how true Buddhism is.
here is a psychic medium who imo could lead you to right view

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6trTpgd0GE&list=PLGB9jAQpkKn1Etjh_G29PfiEBwprCcCIj

https://www.raymondguzman.net/

bump

>>15429394
>anons haven't seen that vid where a couple women mistake the kangaroo shaped trash bin outside a temple to be a sculpture of temple guardian and start worshiping it and shit

>>15429434
how can they give the animals something which they themselves don't have

>>15430452
if they really worshiped them with their hearts, they could

India is a weird place

Answer this
http://www.thelogician.net/BUDDHIST-ILLOGIC/Cover-page.htm
https://www.amazon.fr/Emptiness-Appraised-Critical-Nagarjunas-Philosophy/dp/0700710663

>>15430487
answer what?

>>15430494
OK u cant

>>15430534
whats the question?

>>15430534
How do I answer links? More links?

>>15430487
>mere human criticizes the work of a Saint

>>15430542
Read it and answer faggot
Pro-tip: u cant
It destroys buddhist logic

>>15430494
>>15430537
>>15430542
click on the 'Buddhist illogic' line under 'helpful links'

>>15430565
second one was already discussed

first one is some jew analytical repeating the same arguments

>>15430597
>second one was already discussed
Source: wallah

>first one is some jew analytical repeating the same arguments
No

>>15430601
read the thread

>No
Yes

>>15430597
>second one was already discussed
Link?

>>15430607
Your pathetic (non)answer to the methodical dismantling of Avi Zion is enough for me.
Game over brainlet

>>15430615
>jewish analytic 'logician'
he doesn't even agree with you lol

>>15430597
>second one was already discussed
I read all the thread.

Are you really so dishonest that you truly think you answered anything in the book or are you just too stupid to realize it?

>>15430632
retard

>>15430640
He really didnt understand

U answered nothing

>>15430643
>He really didnt understand
>U answered nothing

>>15430643
what is the question?

>>15430650
that's what I'm trying to get at with this brainlet

>>15423231
Where do I get started with Nagarjuna and why is his system better than Advaita?

>compared to something like Hayes' analysis of Nagarjuna's equivocation of svabhava (which was a more lethal blow to Nagarjunian dialectics).

> (which was a more lethal blow to Nagarjunian dialectics).

> lethal blow

Btfo

>>15430669
read MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra, a lot of his shit was plagiarized by Shankara so I wouldn't say it is 'better' since they are really the same thing but Nagarjuna did it first in a why that isn't dogmatic

>>15430677
he's right, Hayes is the only one who actually critiqued him properly. Burton and the others are poor examples.

>>15430650
>>15430657
My fucking question is what does the author have to say to Avi Sion's arguments?

I gave a website to read his book. One chapter can be read in like 3 minutes.

But the OP's running like a rat because he can't say anything

>>15430683
So buddhism is refuted

>>15430687
what are his arguments? I'm sure you can spell it out since you zoomed past it. Pasting links to books going 'answer this' isn't a question.

>>15430693
no

>>15430681
Based

>>15430694
>what are his arguments? I'm sure you can spell it out since you zoomed past it. Pasting links to books going 'answer this' isn't a question.

What was I saying?

>I gave a website to read his book. One chapter can be read in like 3 minutes.
>But the OP's running like a rat because he can't say anything

>>15430703
What was I saying?

>what are his arguments? I'm sure you can spell it out since you zoomed past it. Pasting links to books going 'answer this' isn't a question.

>>15423231
I used to be able to go into a deep meditative state very easily, but it has gotten increasingly difficult for me to do so without the aid of cannabis or other narcotics the last couple years. I would see very vivid and elaborate closed-eye-visuals and would almost feel disconnected from my body when, but only on a few occasions relatively recently have I been able to go that deep. Why do you think this is?

>>15430669
His most important work is the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā, the Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way. I cannot vouch for what this dude >>15430681 is always shilling but given that it's by Nagarjuna I'm gonna say read that too because Nagarjuna was a pretty clever dude.

>>15430706
those kinds of states can be achieved in many different ways, substance is one of them but pure meditation without substance is the most insightful practice in my experience.

>>15430703
I'm not that person btw

>>15430720
nothing I said there is factually wrong, yes MMK is his baby and I should probably recc it more but I find MPPS to be the standard encyclopedia of his thought (and mahayana in general)

>>15430669
>>15430720
No Mahayana is a footnote to the abidhamma by the Sarvāstivādins. SO you have to read all the suttas by the Sarvāstivādins, then their abidhamma, then the footnote.
If you do not do this, you will never understand anything.

How can i start Mahakala practice?
Thanks

>>15430954
Deity worship is in Hinduism, so become a hindu.

>>15430970
I was speaking with a woman and i needed to tell her my dreams and she told me that in my dream was Mahakala is that possible or...? Thanks

>>15430948
bullshit
>>15430954
you are following Vajrayana Buddhism, and it's great. i suggest that you should start with 'Great Compassion Mantra' or 'Cunde Mantra', those are the most powerful Mantras. but if you still want to go with Mahakala, then come to the nearest Mahayana temple and ask the Monks for the cult. you can imitate how the Chinese cultivate at home or at temples as well
>>15430970
bullshit

>>15431110
Thanks, was it possible that he was in my dream?

>>15431148
yes!

>>15431171
Sorry, but what that means do i need to do something or...? Sorry i don have nobody else to ask. Thanks for understanding.

>>15431193
that means you can to chant one of these Mahalaka Mantras:
1. Om Shri Mahakala Hum Phat
2.Om Mahakalaya Soha
3.Om Benza Nara Trim Trim Hung Hung Phet Phet Soha
4. Om Benza Mahakala Kin Kinta Binay BinayYaka Hum Hum Phat Svaha (black Mahakala)
5. Om Benza Mahakala Hari Ni Sa Siddhi Dza (white Mahakala)
ask the Mahayana Monks for the cult before you start. good luck! ^^

>>15431256
can chant to*

>>15431256
Thanks

>>15431304
https://mandalas.life/2018/mantra-of-buddhist-deities/

>>15429845
>I wonder if Burton had been exposed to practical instructions from the Dzogchen or Mahamudra systems he might start getting past a mental block he seems to have in those sections.
Are you saying that it's only later Tantric teachings which arose hundreds of years after him which fully solve the contradictions in Nagarjuna?

>The section about infinite regression and how can the subject also be empty is quite badly argued. Infinite regression isn't a problem, and should be expected in a system that explicitly supports infinite time, space, and rebirths.
Why is infinite regression not a problem when it occurs in Nagarjuna's metaphysics but Nagarjuna at the same uses infinite regression to dismiss the other non-Buddhist and non-Madhyamaka Buddhist metaphysics? An essential part of his critique of the various constructive metaphysics of the other schools is that they result in an infinite regression, which is why he rejects them as illogical. Now when someone points out that the same happens with his ideas it seems like you are papering it over with Tantric explanations that arose long after the fact.

I don't see how the problem of the constructor of conceptual constructs being a conceptual construct themselves is solved by your explanation. It's roughly analogous to a son giving birth to the father, non-entities cannot have conceptual constructions, but in order for there to be an entity to make conceptual constructions according to Madhyamaka that very entity has to be a conceptual construct itself, but there is no way that it can "pre-construct" itself by conceptually constructing itself out of nothing before it was an entity that could have conceptual constructions, because qua not being an entity it wouldn't possess the ability to have conceptual constructs. It seems incoherent to me.

>>15423231
Can you explain the Buddhist refutation of Hindu athman doctrine?

>>15431439
it was written in Digha Nikaya! have a good read! ^^

>>15423231
> I'm an expert on Buddhism

This statement means you are not.

>>15431439
The mind or consciousness is conditioned, so not the ultimate reality that the hindus say it is.

OP is offering poor advice. Please seek out a proper sect / go to monastics for advice / get the proper lineage of a mantra / initiations before starting your practice. There are a lot of directions you can be pulled and some of them are not of good intent.

For instance:
"Je Rinpoche" is a cult leader and anything connected to him is false. Even having a book affiliated with his followers will bring bad effect to you.

>>15431523
>define a person via a statement
you're smarter than this, aren't you?

>>15431554
>"Je Rinpoche" is a cult leader and anything connected to him is false.
can you elaborate? I've seen various things that turn me off about the Gelug school but have never seen anyone try to say that the basis/origin of the whole thing is tainted

>>15431568
being motivated to spread dharma by claiming yourself "an expert" is not an appropriate way to spread the dharma.

>>15431582
alright! ^^

>>15431439
The continuity of consciousness cannot be experienced without working memory. The self-reflection ability requires at least two things: observer and observed. Viewing multiplicity of conditioned world as illusory, because it's all dream is Denett tier refutation.

>>15431607
bullshit and mumbo jumbo

>>15431581
Gelug is a fantastic school. It is my school. He is not Gelug.

Je Rinpoche and his followers are banned from ever stepping foot on most Gelug property. He makes claims and acts in ways that harm the image of Tsongkhapa and his students. He speaks out against the Dalai Lama and endorses a 'dharma protector' that lead to the murder of several monks. It's a cult, straight up. He arrogantly created the world's largest statue of this 'dharma protector' in defiance of the Dalai Lama disavowing it. I would not listening to this man speak, but if you ever hear him I'd hope you can recognize he's a deceiver.

personal anecdote:
I once ordered a book to my home and the 'publisher' was affiliated with this man. It brought a bad air that my wife immediately recognized. I had a vision of Manjushri a day later and upon discussion with one of my teachers I realized this was a distorted vision that could harm my practice if I took it seriously. We ended up burning the book and reciting a mantra. Everything is good now. Apparently false visions happen to monastics as well - having a qualified teacher is crucial in our development.

>tfw reading MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

>>15431640
I'm sorry. I meant 'Tsem Rinpoche.'
I've made a mistake.

>>15431640
>Je Rinpoche and his followers are banned from ever stepping foot on most Gelug property. He makes claims and acts in ways that harm the image of Tsongkhapa
When I go on google it tells me that Je Rinpoche *is* Tsongkhapa, are they two separate people? who is Je Rinpoche?

>>15431581
I meant 'Tsem Rinpoche.' Sorry.

What things in particular turn you off from the Gelug school?

>>15431665
>>15431658
ah I see

>>15431665
see
>>15431672

>>15431665
Tsem Rinpoche died quite recently. Seemed like a nice enough fellow.

>>15431672
>What things in particular turn you off from the Gelug school?
I have seen various scholars say that they don't really understand Yogachara that well and in their writings say things about it that are simply wrong. I also feel a more personal affinity for shentong teachings and they seem more correct to me then the rentong teachings that Gelug takes as the highest

>>15431693
*rantong teachings that Gelug

Is it ok to be a turbo-shiposting chantard and a Buddhist at the same time?
Or do I have to give up the chons?

>>15431693
Anecdote: The monastics I interact with seem to be high level mediators and very knowledgeable on the subject. I've attended initiation of the highest yogic tantra by Tibetan Rinpoche's hosted by my school.

I do not know what the scholars have said to comment.

Shentong does not connect with me, as it requires the assertion of a position. Madhyamaka is a 'reductio as absurdum' philosophy. The fog is removed. No fog should remain.

>>15431709
I confessed to my teacher I posted on 4chan and the 'wild west' nature of the website.

All he said was: 'Why?'

>>15431439
It's basically "If you can't see it why believe in it?" (nevermind that in my teachings you can't see karma, rebirth, nirvana etc). And the Atman doctrine Buddha describes and argues against doesn't resemble the Upanishadic teaching of an undecaying all-pervading Atman but rather the individualized Atman that the Upanishads rejected. There is one passage he talks about the Self being the same as the cosmos and eternal, but he just says this is bad without offering any real critique and in the Upanishads the Atma is transcendent to (i.e. not the same as) the cosmos anyway.

>>15431531
Consciousness is the ultimate reality, not the mind, there is no way to show that consciousness is conditioned. Anything which can you witness about mental activity and say "this is conditioned" is just you categorizing with the mind, consciousness observes the activity of the mind, dancing just out reach; the activity of the mind is made manifest to consciousness when the former appears in the latter to be witnessed. When you try to grasp and delimit something about your own consciousness it's a cognition involving the mind and hence no longer provides information about the consciousness witnessing that cognition itself. The eye of consciousness cannot grasp itself as its own object and so there is no way to show that is conditioned.

>inb4 hitting someone over the head knocks them out, therefore its conditioned
Doesn't disprove whether consciousness is outside like the radio wave and continuing in it's own unaffected form and you just messed up the radio that received it

>inb4 someone is not conscious of something until an object enters their vision, thus consciousness is conditioned by those objects
Observing =/= being conditioned by, in order for consciousness to be conditioned by that which it observes there would have be an change in consciousness itself, but consciousness itself never changes, only that which manifests itself to consciousness changes. The mind receives and is conditioned by outside sensations, consciousness simply observes the mind without being affected by it, the one who wants to prove that consciousness is conditioned by that which it observes gets redirected to the problem detailed above where you can't actually show that it's conditioned or affected because it cannot grasp itself and anything you put forward as proof that it's conditioned is a mental construct of the mind and not the observing consciousness itself.

>>15431607
>continuity of consciousness cannot be experienced without working memory
Incorrect, continuity of thought =/= continuity of consciousness, if you had a damaged memory your consciousness wouldn't be flitting between awareness and darkness at every moment, you would just simply not be able to maintain thoughts over many moments

>Viewing multiplicity of conditioned world as illusory, because it's all dream is Denett tier refutation.
This is not the reasoning used by Hindu philosophy, it's a strawman

>>15431754
Shentong exists outside of Jonang and certain teachers in the Kagyu and Nyingma schools have taken positions supporting it, the Jonang teacher Dolpopa has many thoughtful arguments against the rantong position in his work 'Ocean of Definitive Meaning'. It has been translated as "The Mountain Doctrine" by Jeffrey Hopkins and can be downloaded on lib-gen if you are curious to perhaps challenge your own views. There have also been scholars who have pointed out that despite not being typically classified as such and despite not using the label for themselves the writings of some of the pioneers of Dzogchen like Longchenpa are actually much closer to the shentong position then rantong.

>>15431804
>>15431804
>>Consciousness is the ultimate reality, not the mind, there is no way to show that consciousness is conditioned.
that's completely wrong

>>Consciousness is the ultimate reality, not the mind, there is no way to show that consciousness is conditioned.
yeah you have no idea what conditioned means

>>15431934
>that's completely wrong
not an argument
>yeah you have no idea what conditioned means
not an argument

>>15431762
That's a legitimatly amazing response.

>>15423231
Is it bad to kill someone ?

>>15423231
Why born of you gonna die?

is tantra REALLY about (((sex with a woman))) or is it just a very complex meditation and the physical sex part was made to weed out normies and assure only good monks get the initiation?

there are so many schools of buddhism with minute details,,,what should a celibate man wanting to find the Truth do,regarding choosing schools?

>>15433048
Tantra is about using your sublte energies to reach liberation. Tantric sexual practice is one way, and while the most well known in the west, it is actually rare in the east. Most tantra consists of mantra repetiton, yantra meditation and deep states idendification with one's chosen deity, coupled with rituals and precepts.

>>15431762
do you have to confess your dirty acts to teachers?
damm i'm never getting an initiation given my list of weird stuff that i do

>>15433352
I know about a retreat where you have to do 100,00 postrations, offerings,prayers etc,is it something like that?
it lasts around 3 years

>also is "darkness seclusion" a tibetan bon thing,taoist,or genuinely buddhist?

Op if you're still here I have some important queries
>how does buddhism relate to quantum phsyics, holgoraphic universe,simulation argument?
>im mastering lucid dreaming. How can i use this to prove,or disprove,buddhism?

im catholic but really interested in buddhism

>>15434135
Not OP.
Read Alan Wallace's books regarding science and Buddhism. He loves his quantum stuff.
For lucid dreaming, look up Charley Morely. Also the books:
Sleeping, Dreaming, Dying by th Dalai Lama
Dream Yourself Awake by Alan Wallace
The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal
Meditation, Transformation, and Dream Yoga by Gyatrul Rinpoche
Dream Yoga and the Practice of Natural Light by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

>>15423231
Explain meditation to me: what is the experience.

>>15433396
Dark retreat also exists in the nyingma lineage. It's called yangti.

>>15434197
Depends on the meditation tradition. In general it should calm your mind and allow your to understand yourself, as well as feeling kinder towards others.

>>15434224
bump

>>15423231

>>15431656
great, keep reading
>>15431709
yes, it's totally ok. as long as you can keep your mind pure and not insult the Buddha's dharma
>>15432636
it depends on the situtation
>>15432907
what do you mean? i didn't quite catch that :/
>>15433048
imagine two phones connect via wifi, sexual tantra is like that
read MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra. follow the Mahayana, practice the Vajrayana. try chanting 'Great Compassion Mantra', but if you feel like this Mantra is too long, try 'Cundi Mantra'
>>15434135
well, many physicists have agreed that time and space are deception, e.g Einstein,..
Buddhism did agreed with these ideas, and even goes further, claming that your senses, and even your thoughts, are deception too, (MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra, volume 5)
your personal experience in lucid dreaming is not enough to reach to higher conscious, and you haven't met the right people yet. i recommend trying this spiritual youtube channel, hope you like it and have a more opened thought examination
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGB9jAQpkKn1Etjh_G29PfiEBwprCcCIj
>>15434197
sorry, i didn't quite catch that

Interested in Buddhism, looked at it off and on for years and potentially want to practice.

I originally was interested in Theravada, but I discovered it is clearly laid out that lay individuals have no opportunity to reach enlightenment, make significant progress or be even be a stream enterer in their current life. Also it seems fairly nihilistic or life denying from a surface view.

Because of this I started reading Mahayana based sutras such as the Heart Sutra, Lotus Sutra and so on and they really clicked with me. Do you have a recommendation on a sect to focus on? I live in a city with multiple Buddhist centers, even a Tibetan one and eventually want to connect with a teacher. Meditation practice is important to me, but I greatly enjoy the practice of understanding/studying Buddhist philosophical ideas.

https://discord.gg/FFwRXKq

>>15436110
read MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna (this is enough, you don't need to read further)
follow the Mahayana
practice Vajrayana
try 'Great Compassion Mantra' or 'Cundi Mantra'

>>15436110
Major schools in Mahayana rundown:

>Tibetan/Vajryana
the most out there for sure, has the most Yoga/Vedic practices, but its very solid. Would highly recommend if you have a teacher/temple nearby, the only way to learn anything with the Tibetan branch is to have a teacher.

>Zen
Originally a kind of sectarian branch of Chan. Primarily focuses on practice, there are some questionable Japanese lineages under the Zen umbrella that are often in dispute. Careful not to fall into the Westernized bastard version if interested.

>Pure Land
Probably the easiest form of Buddhism to get into for someone that is familiar with Abrahamic systems. Primarily based around faith and the idea that with right intention and the recitation of Amitabha's name upon death, you'll go to the Pure Land which is basically the training ground for Boddhisatvas/Buddhas to be.

>Chan
The original form of Zen, which also blends elements of Pure Land. Consider it a combination of both, a lot of faith and a lot of practice.

>Tiantai
Pretty interesting. Its primary focus is based around the complete understanding of the Lotus Sutra. It is philosophically pretty deep, because it tries to harmonize ALL of the Mahayana Buddhist texts and scriptures.

>Hua Yan
Another pretty deep philosophical school with a big twist of metaphysics thrown in (see Indra's Net for example). Primary focus is on the Avatamsaka Sutra.

>Madhyamika
Nagarjuna's school essentially, based on the Chinese translation of Madhyamika Karika, has a great focus on Sunyata.

I'd list Yogacara as one, but I'm not sure people consider it its own school anymore as Tibetan Buddhism incorporates a lot of Yogacaric ideas/principles.

>>15436110
Whatever works for you, dude.

Strictly speaking Buddhist "denominations" are defined by the Vinaya they use, which is a monastic code of conduct. If you're not a monk, "being a Buddhist" really means following the five precepts and following various teachings from one or more schools, teachers, traditions, etc (some of which involve lay initiation). It's not like in Abrahamism where you pick a discrete thing and HAVE to do everything in it and can't do anything outside of it and you explicitly say "I am an X". Every Buddhist center in my state goes over Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, by Chogyam Trungpa, even if they aren't Vajrayana like he was. Historically, it took about 600-700 years after the Buddha's death for the various schools of thought to actually start segregating from each other AT ALL, and up until then monks with vastly different ideas would live and meditate together in the same monastery. There's hints of the obvious friction this could cause even in the Pali Canon (In the Anapanasati Sutta the Buddha lauds the monastery where he's giving this teaching because everyone gets along so well).

The Buddha taught some autistically large number of forms of Dharma, all of them work, and we Westerners don't have "our school" yet. In some ways, that's a downside, but in others, it gives you freedom to do what works for you. Do your research, and do it well. ESPECIALLY if you're interested in Vajrayana, which seems to me to have a higher-than-usual number of cults and grifters. Perhaps this is just chauvinism or ignorance on my part, however. My other advice in this regard would be to stay away from Soka Gakkai, who are as far as I'm aware an actual cult trying to suck money out of rubes.

I would encourage you not to write off the Theravada, however. The austerity can come off as harsh to Westerners, so a good guy to look into is Thanissaro Bhikku. I would encourage anyone who views Theravada (or Buddhism in general) as nihilistic or life denying to look into him.

>>15436275
it's me, OP, but i forgot to type my name
>>15436277
good post!

>>15436289
>ESPECIALLY if you're interested in Vajrayana

This is a big issue in the West I noticed. Tons of people use Tibetan Buddhism/Vajryana as a sort of lure to imply that they know hidden Eastern teachings and mysteries. There are legit cults dedicated to these imposters in Western countries, which typically involve one or a few "enlightened" dudes banging tons of women.

Fortunately, research into legitimate lineages is VERY easy as they trace back hundreds of years and real masters are easily identified.

I could never get into Vajryana after people like Sogyal Rinpoche (he died) were endorsed in public by people such as the Dalai Llama. Dude literally raped and beat most of his subjects on the DAILY. Yet he was never renounced by prominent Tibetan Buddhist figures.

>>15436549
that doesn't mean the teaching of Vajrayana is wrong

>>15436596
If he was openly supported by so many of the revered teachers of Vajra itself, even the HHDL, having known what he was doing, I'd say something severely wrong is going down. There is something inherently corrupting in Vajryana it seems, as this isn't the only massive scandal. Scandals from other sects of Buddhism are either much less frequent or don't seem to happen at all. What is it about Vajryana that corrupts these revered leaders?

HHDL knew about Sogyal abusing people for over twenty years and did nothing about it. It was the Rigpa sect's own advisors who finally decided to oust him after growing some balls right before he died, and supposedly they only did it because he pissed them off, not because of his abuse.

>>15436549
Who's to judge?

>>15436660
you're right, since we don't have a self we shouldn't judge anyone for wrong doing because it's just all sunyata man.... now I'm going to take some of the female disciples into the back for some... extra curricular lessons

>>15436549
Same. There are just a ton of shady fuck "leaders" in Buddhism in general. Remember Buddha Boy? The kid who meditated for a year or some shit in the tree? Yeah, now he claims that he is Maitreya Buddha (the next Buddha that is supposed to come when the age of Dharma comes to a formal conclusion, which is supposedly EONS from now).

Yeah, he runs his own Buddhist cult and people involved in it have been disappearing and never found again. One person reported that he was having people tortured that went against his word and dumping their bodies, hes wanted by authorities in most of Nepal and neighboring countries, but locals protect him because he genuinely tricks them into believing he is Maitreya, even though they've discovered the bodies of people who follow him.

>>15436549
Swift ascent.

>>15436596
OP are you able to answer the questions I had about the holes in Madhyamaka here? >>15431383 I can't wrap my head around how you can seriously believe that Nagarjuna refuted other schools of eastern philosophy through a reducto ad absurdem typically involving an infinite regress, but then when it's pointed out that Nagarjuna's own ideas result in an absurd infinite regress you just hand-waved it away

>>15436549>>15436716

you have to understand that vajrayana is buddhism by coomers >>15436596

>>15436110
Yeah so you love the rituals and the mental gymnastics and feeling righteous while staying in your comfort zone.. It is better for you to stick to Mahayana-hinduism. However you can't get enlightened, or even make merits, by reading intellectual poos.

>>15436716
Wait til you learn that this is like 70% of Indian society. This is all they do dude. Every time we westerners know about some guru claiming to be the 15th reincarnation of so and so, we're just seeing the 1/1000 who rise to the top and become visible to westerners. But every city and village in India has its cults and cults within cults. The day to day religiosity of the society is based on worshiping some guy named Steve down the road.

>>15436041
>>well, many physicists have agreed that time and space are deception, e.g Einstein,..
this is wrong>>15436041
>Buddhism did agreed with these ideas, and even goes further, claming that your senses, and even your thoughts, are deception too, (MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra, volume 5)
still not buddhism. why do you keep confusing commentaries with buddhism?
>>15434135
>>>how does buddhism relate to quantum phsyics, holgoraphic universe,simulation argument?
there is no link between rationalism and buddhism. Buddhism is not a rationalism.
>>15434135
>>>im mastering lucid dreaming. How can i use this to prove,or disprove,buddhism?
you have no idea what the usual concept of proof means. and what would ''proving buddhism'' mean anyway?
if you talk about proof, catch up with science, history of science and philosophy of science, then try to understand what a proof means in maths, science, and what would a proof be in buddhism instead of listening to the mental proliferation of this intellectual >>15436041

>>15436920
Interestingly, we now know that the oldest Mahayana based text is actually older than the oldest Theravadan text and was written closer to the time of the Buddha who lived during a time that Hinduism didn't exist and hadn't taken root yet.

Basically, its less infected by poos than Theravadan if you want to be really technical, but I know you're just an asshurt secular.

>>15436924
it reminds me of this documentary I watched as a kid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0cCNuJfpAg

>>15436289
watch your language
>>15436793
wish you were here now, in my country. i could show you the evidences and answer easily everything you have been questioning. Buddhism and Buddha teaching surpasses the language game and it should not be debated if it's true or not. i'm really sorry this is not the answer you are looking for
>>15436892
>>15436920
watch your language, religion and spirituality is not and should not be something you could bad mouth on
>>15436943
bullshit

>>15436289
watch your language
>>15436793
wish you were here now, in my country. i could show you the evidences and answer easily everything you have been questioning. Buddhism and Buddha teaching surpasses the language game and it should not be debated if it's true or not. i'm really sorry this is not the answer you are looking for
>>15436892
>>15436920
watch your language, religion and spirituality is not and should not be something you could bad mouth on
>>15436943
don't be silly!

>>15436924
you know you can realize spiritual truths and also be a rapist, right?

bump

What are your thoughts on Soto Zen?

>>15429394
doggy

>>15423276
Nirvana was an American rock band formed in Aberdeen, Washington, in 1987. Founded by lead singer and guitarist Kurt Cobain and bassist Krist Novoselic, the band went through a succession of drummers before recruiting Dave Grohl in 1990. Though Nirvana dissolved in 1994 after the death of Cobain, their music maintains a popular following and continues to influence modern rock and roll culture.

>>15437637
>Cobain parinibbanna'd himself

>>15431383
My point is based on the fact there are two paths in Buddhism in the Tibetan system. One is that of a scholar where you use logic to eventually give up concepts. The second is to use experience and jump over the conceptual mind, which is the point of tantra, such as using breathing techniques to force a nondual, nonconceptual state. Nagarjuna belongs to the first approach. It's not mandatory for realisation and in fact can be slower. But it's very useful for some people who are intellectually inclined.
As for the infinite regression issue, Nagarjuna is not claiming anything substantial to replace ideas he shows have absurd consequences. Emptiness is itself empty ("mahashunyata"), and so isn't a final reality which you have to hold onto or a real method to let go of a real problem. The whole method is to see that when there seems to be a mind which has real thoughts which have real causes and effects, it's like a mirage. Once you don't cling to the appearance, it's not a problem. This is behind two famous quotes:
>"Son, perceptions don't bind, clinging does; so cut your clinging, Naropa.” Tilopa
And
>Bodhidharma sat facing the wall.
>The Second Patriarch stood in the snow.
>He cut off his arm and presented it to Bodhidharma, crying, “My mind has no peace as yet! I beg you, master, please pacify my mind!”
>“Bring your mind here and I will pacify it for you,” replied Bodhidharma.
>“I have searched for my mind, and I cannot take hold of it,” said the Second Patriarch.
>“Now your mind is pacified,” said Bodhidharma.
>Gateless Gate, Case 41

It's all method to let go of the bullshit you believe about yourself. Buddhist philosophy is all about becoming free. "The Heart Attack Sutra" by Karl Brunnholzl is a fantastic explanation of this.

Why have Buddhist countries went to war?

>>15437470
my ranking of schools:
1. Vajrayana: Mantra chanting school, with the top Mantras are 'Great Compassion Mantra' and 'Cundi Mantra'
2. Pure Land: Buddha title chanting (Amita Buddha title)
3. Zen:
top 1: transcendental meditation (meditate with Mantra)
top 2: soto zen

the best book, in my opinion, is 'MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra' by Nagarjuna

>>15437921
all countries have gone to war at least once

do buddhists believe in forgiveness? it seems to me like the major difference, that abrahamics believe in a living God, whereas buddhists believe in a static order of things

>>15438734
Forgiveness in what sense? And buddhists do not believe things are static because everything is impermanent

>>15436979
>we now know that the oldest Mahayana based text is actually older than the oldest Theravadan text
lel

>>15438734
yes! Buddhists do believe in forgiveness

>>15436549
>rape
your average indian

>>15437921
because some kings said they had to

>>15438804
>>15438906
basically in the idea that sincere regret is a good-karma event that can negate the negative karma-effects of things one has done

>>15439483
>when the buddhist feels the need to lash out at random Indians when someone points out that his super special esoteric Vajrayana master praised by the Dalai Lama was a sexual predator, thereby making a mockery of the whole Vajrayana school and calling into question how it can be legitimate if someone can ascend to the near top of it and remain there for decades while stealing funds and raping and beating people up

>>15438811
Seems like a joke, but hes actually right as of two years ago, which makes dating the schism of the original council really wonky and likely incorrect.

>>15436979
>was written closer to the time of the Buddha who lived during a time that Hinduism didn't exist and hadn't taken root yet.
does not matter. preMahyana & Mahyana suttas are post Buddhist suttas, since they refer to them all the time by trying to shit on the arhants, hearers and solitary buddhas and saying only the Mahayanists understand nirvana.

>>15436979
>Buddha who lived during a time that Hinduism didn't exist and hadn't taken root yet.
yeah that's dubful

>>15440332
>>15436979
AlsoNagajurna is a biggest retard ever completely falling for the hindu Luminous mind prabhasvara-citta which has been debunked by analayo

HINDUS AND MAHAYANA BTFO

>>15440332
>>15436979
Also Nagarjuna is a biggest retard ever completely falling for the hindu Luminous mind prabhasvara-citta which has been debunked by Theravadins.

HINDUS AND NAGARJUNA AND MAHAYANA BTFO

>this thread

jesus kek

its basically a bunch of unread non-practitioners and super angry secular nu-theravadin supremacists. i don't know what i expected considering this is 4chan

>>15440514
4chan has been just like any other forum since 2009 get over it

>>15440573
get over what lmao?

i was just stating that the people in here are fucking clueless sub 90 iq nigs

>>15440597
Bro, you know how this goes with 4chan, especially /lit/. Take a few textual examples, over simplify thousands of years of teaching into a few sentences and act like you're an authority on the topic.

I bet not a single soul here can even name every single deity and figure on the Womb Realm Mandala

so is this >>15440177
a thing or not? Can you wipe the slate clean, or possibly override the negative with the good simply by expressing sincere regret?

now I figure that in buddhism right and wrong are kind of wonky, but I do believe you know what I mean. some karmic outcomes are better. I'm under the impression that the load of a "sin"- an action with a negative karmic effect- will remain in place no matter what you do. This would be, as far as I see, a system without forgiveness.

>>15440863
Yeah I can't what's you're point

>>15441298
Repentance can get rid of negative karma. There is also no eternal form of punishment in Buddhism.

>>15423231
give me info on white lotus