/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15422406]

Tolkien's work on the linguistics in the book elevates this to high brow literature imo.

[Anonymous No.15422439]

No. It's a silly story about dragons and vampires for socially awkward teenage boys. Haha imagine reading as a teen instead of smashing 14 year old pussy lol.

[Anonymous No.15422446]

>ywn go on an adventure with your bros

[Anonymous No.15422503]

>>15422406
Yes I agree

[Anonymous No.15422635]

What do you mean? Tolkien stole mostly from Finns, even the Elvish language is just basically a dialect of Finnish.

You must be a bit retarded or uneducated if you think he invented the languages or linguistics on his own. Most of the Silmarillion and lord of the rings is just Finnish myths like Kalevala and the elves basically speak Finnish.

Stay retarded, kid.

[Anonymous No.15422638]

Tolkien's work show little to none originality, he mostly stole from the Finns.

[Anonymous No.15422648]

>>15422406
It's amazing that he could make such a language JUST out of Icelandic and English!

[Anonymous No.15422665]

>>15422648
Bulk of the languages of Tolkien owe to the Finnish language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish_languages_(Middle-earth)

He then discovered Finnish, which he described many years later as "like discovering a complete wine-cellar filled with bottles of an amazing wine of a kind and flavour never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me."[T 1] He had started his study of the Finnish language to be able to read the Kalevala epic.

The ingredients in Quenya are various, but worked out into a self-consistent character not precisely like any language that I know. Finnish, which I came across when I first begun to construct a 'mythology' was a dominant influence, but that has been much reduced [now in late Quenya]. It survives in some features: such as the absence of any consonant combinations initially, the absence of the voiced stops b, d, g (except in mb, nd, ng, ld, rd, which are favoured) and the fondness for the ending -inen, -ainen, -oinen, also in some points of grammar, such as the inflexional endings -sse (rest at or in), -nna (movement to, towards), and -llo (movement from); the personal possessives are also expressed by suffixes; there is no gender.[T 2]

Tolkien was obsessed with Finland. Pic related is the first book he ever wrote, the Finnish story of Kullervo. Over 80% of the Middle-Earth and Silmarillion languages are constructed over from Finnish. Only Black Speech and the language of the orcs are using scandinavian words and dialect of old norse and icelandic.

Pic related is the first book Tolkien ever wrote, translation of the story of Kullervo, Finnish mythological figure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo

Finnish was the only language, besides English, that Tolkien mastered in his lifetime. He also proudly declared himself in a letter:
>"I am quite frankyl, a Fennomaniac"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoman_movement

[Anonymous No.15422688]

>>15422665
I dunno he never said that he was influenced by the language on his Elvish language.

[Anonymous No.15422712]

>>15422688
This is academically recognized fact that he based all of his languages either directly or indirectly on Finnish language

Pic related tell of his obsession that lasted for lifetime

[Anonymous No.15422725]

There is little to none originality in the work of Tolkien, if translating myths of Finland is not counted as originality.

[Anonymous No.15422726]

>>15422712
But what about the English character of it?

[Anonymous No.15422773]

>>15422726
Minor element, perhaps less than 5%. The main bulk of the structure of the languages and mythologies (80-95%) being constructed of the Finnish myths. Some German and Nordic myth thrown into mix, but academics say that over 90%

Even The Silmarillion is proven to be basically a retelling of the myth of forging the Sampo. Tolkien himself was ashamed of the work and did not want to publish it during his lifetime, because he probably realized that it was not an original work.

[Anonymous No.15422807]

It's ironic how most of /lit/ say academically and historically wrong things like this >>15422638

Some are actually so deluded, that they think Tolkien was channeling some sort of norther or germanic spirit with his mythos. All the academics and tolkien researchers agree that most of the Middle-Earth legendarium is based around Finland and the Finnish myths and language.

But this only tells of the people visiting /lit/, they tell things about authors how they "feel" like things are. They say things like: "Wow, this reminds me of Beowulf" and it may be true in their mind, while in reality is that they meant the Kalevala, on which Tolkien built his myths and stories.

[Anonymous No.15422832]

>>15422635
>>15422638
>Tolkein stole from the Finns
My God this is in every single thread. I'm so sick of this deliberate retardation
>homer stole from the oral tradition
>virgil and ovid stole from Roman legend
>dante and milton stole from the bible
>shakespeare stole from various english, italian, and nordic stories
>shakespeare stole from history
>goethe stole from Marlowe and German legend
>Voltaire stole from Leibniz
>Joyce stole from homer
LOTR is less derivative than everything mentioned above

[Anonymous No.15422844]

>>15422832
Why academics disagree with your opinion?

Even Tolkien himself says:
>Kalevala was the original germ of the Silmarillion

Here is an academic study on the fact:

http://otpn.uni.opole.pl/wp-content/uploads/KO_2010_4_127-136-MaczynskaM.pdf

The Kalevala as the Germ
of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien’s Legendarium

[Anonymous No.15422855]

>>15422832
Another "self-learned" retard who has watched Peter Jackson LOTR movies and now thinks New Zealand was the homeland of Tolkien's myth

You fucking sad retard. High IQ professors literally have been telling for decades that LOTR is just basically Finland even by geography

[Anonymous No.15422857]

>>15422844
Here's the retard. I'm not saying that he didn't use Finnish for inspiration, im saying it's bullshit to disregard an artistic work because it's not 100% original. If you say "hurt durr tolkein STOLE from the finns" you have to agree that everyone I mentioned stole from their sources.
Just because Tolkein used Finnish sources doesn't mean he didn't create a transcendent work of art.

[Anonymous No.15422861]

>>15422635

take your meds schizo

[Anonymous No.15422866]

>>15422857
>>15422861
>HURRR I KNOW BETTER THAN THE SCIENTISTS AND THOSE STUPID ACADEMICS!!!!!! NOT FINLAND NO!!! FINLAND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT NO!!!!

Swallow your pride for once and show some respect to the Finnish heritage, that without you would not even have these manchild books to begin with.

[Anonymous No.15422868]

>>15422857

dude you arguing with a literal schizophrenic

[Anonymous No.15422895]

>>15422773
What about the Lord of the Rings?

[Anonymous No.15422903]

>>15422895
>What about the Lord of the Rings?

Would not exist without Finland. Simple as that.

[Anonymous No.15422907]

>>15422866
Holy fuck I am agreeing with you that Tolkein used Finnish shit as a source for Middle Earth etc. I'm saying there's nothing wrong with that and to say he 'stole' it is like saying Shakespeare stole Hamlet from the Danes and therefore Shakespeare is a hack.
>>15422855
>Another "self-learned" retard who has watched Baz Luhrmann movies and now thinks Australia was the homeland of Shakespeare's plays

>You fucking sad retard. High IQ professors literally have been telling for decades that Romeo and Juliet is just basically Italy even by geography
Nice reddit spacing you glorious winged faggot but hey at least you both rolled dubs
Yes I'm mad because you guys completely lack reading comprehension

[Anonymous No.15423034]

>>15422406
For me, it's the verisimilitude. Despite it being a fantasy, the work he put into realizing each of these cultures is breathtaking and I closer to reality than any other work of its genre. Obviously, the characters aren't quite as three-dimensional, and the dialogue can't be too stylized at times, but that's no detriment to the work any more than epic language was to Homer.
I find the historical endeavors particularly impressive, especially in the scene where Gandalf tells Frodo of Smeagol's relation to Hobbits:
>"And even Bilbo’s story suggests the kinship. There was a great deal in the background of their minds and memories that was very similar. They understood one another remarkably well, very much better than a hobbit would understand, say, a Dwarf, or an Orc, or even an Elf. Think of the riddles they both knew, for one thing.’
That last line alone really grounded it for me.

[Anonymous No.15423060]

>>15422903
Would not exist without German, Iceland, England, Sweden simple as that.

[Anonymous No.15423061]

>>15422866
Man, fuck any poet or author who have ever been influenced by anything, especially if they make those nauseating aLLuSiOnS which don't elevate our understandings of the works at all. Fuck Ovid for not respecting Greek heritage, fuck Dante for not respecting his own Roman heritage, fuck Faulkner for naming his novel "Absolom, Absolom!, and fuck you for making me type this.

[Anonymous No.15423084]

>>15423060
>>15423034
>>15423061

Aren't you underestimating Finnish influence by saying that? I mean Finland certainly had much more influence than Germany, Iceland, England when Tolkien was creating his legendarium

Or are you those people who know better than the Academia?

[Anonymous No.15423188]

>>15423084
Dude, you're either trolling or just plain seething. Drink a glass of water.

[Anonymous No.15423229]

Haha, seething Tolkien spammer. He can't cope with the fact that Tolkien is considered a joke in chad academia so he comes to /lit/ (illiterate teenager forum) to shill his third-rate writer and fails.
Prose? Childish, uneven, and unoriginal.
The world? Derivative, autistic, and lacking the subtle archetypal and mythological depth of the Eddas.
Characters? Irrational, and immature.
Story? A copy-paste of hero's journey, fueled by obvious motivations and circumstances.

No one is exalting Ovid due to his stories (which are, indeed, just retelling of folklore). His value comes from his god-like verse and his captivating portrayal of deep and complicated characters. Tolkien has no redeeming qualities, and his "work" in language is worthless.

[Anonymous No.15423259]

>>15423229
Why are you comparing his work to Eddas while his main influence was The Kalevala?

[Anonymous No.15423310]

>>15423259
Haha, seething finn having a patriotic episode.
Precision? Non-existent.
Intellectual honesty? Never heard of it.
How dare you compare Maupassant to Zola? His biggest influence was Flaubett!!!!!!

[Anonymous No.15423404]

>>15423310
Decisive selectiveness is worse than intellectual dishonesty.

Your post criticizes the originality of Tolkien and goes on to compare it to the mythological depth of the Eddas, while numerous Tolkien biographers and historians agree that Tolkien's main and chief influence was the Kalevala.

[Anonymous No.15423433]

>>15423404
Haha, seething dyslexic faggot reading whatever he wants to read instead of what is actually written.
What are semantics? What is logic? What is a rational argument?

[Anonymous No.15423448]

>>15423404
Also
>Tolkien biographers and historians
Is completely irrelevant. He is considered a joke by the vast, vast majority of academics, and the people you mention are almost certainly discredited outcasts. Hence, your argument by authority doesn't work, even if your thesis is possibly true.

[Anonymous No.15423475]

>>15422406
Absolutely

[Anonymous No.15423501]

>>15422866
>>HURRR I KNOW BETTER THAN THE SCIENTISTS AND THOSE STUPID ACADEMICS!!!!!!
You have to go back.

[Anonymous No.15423503]

>>15422807
The Eddas as well, not only finnish myths.
The lay of the volsung particularly (poetic/elder edda, aka codex regius).

[Anonymous No.15423505]

>>15423448
>>15423433

What the fuck are you people talking about? If Tolkien was alive today and we could ask him one question, namely:
>Mr. Tolkien, if you would have to name a single book that was the main inspiration for Kalevala, what wouild that be?

The answer would be without doubt, the Kalevala. No question about it.

Even if we made some sort of AI algorithm that would analzye all the works of Tolkien and his childhood influences and other stuff like that, the answer would be the Kalevala. No question about it.

Why is it too much to admit this? Tolkien even himself says the very thing in his numerous letters and memoirs. Kalevala was the original Germ of the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings.

[Anonymous No.15423518]

>>15423448
>>15423433

What the fuck are you people talking about? If Tolkien was alive today and we could ask him one question, namely:
>Mr. Tolkien, if you would have to name a single book that was the main inspiration for your Middle-Earth mythos, what would that be?

The answer would be without doubt, the Kalevala. No question about it.

Even if we made some sort of AI algorithm that would analzye all the works of Tolkien and his childhood influences and other stuff like that, the answer would be the Kalevala. No question about it.

Why is it too much to admit this? Tolkien even himself says the very thing in his numerous letters and memoirs. Kalevala was the original Germ of the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings.

[Anonymous No.15423519]

>>15423229
>No one is exalting Ovid due to his stories (which are, indeed, just retelling of folklore). His value comes from his god-like verse and his captivating portrayal of deep and complicated characters.
>Ovid
>Godlike verse
Why do people feel the need to post about shit they haven't read?

[Anonymous No.15423541]

>>15423503
If we think of it this way:

>Would Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion exist without the Eddas?

Yes. Most probably, with some minor difference.

>Would Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion exist without the Kalevala?

Absolutely not, not in a form as we know it. Without the Silmaril myth, without numerous Elvish languages. Huge bulk of history removed making the legendarium almost unrecognizable.

This is the point I am going at. We could make pie charts demonstrating this statistical fact recognized by academia and other researchers of literature.

[Anonymous No.15423568]

>>15423541
I think you're over simplifying the importance of the eddas, but I understand what you mean.
I don't agree with you saying "probably lotr would exist without the eddas".

The importance of the kalevala is pretty obvious, and anyone disregarding it is just plain dumb.

[Anonymous No.15423571]

>>15423541
>>15423503

Here is a basic chart demonstarting the fact I am underlying and which academia also agrees with.

We have actual science to back this up, you understand this?

[Anonymous No.15423585]

>>15423568
Aren't you underestimating the Finnish influence by statetements like that?

[Anonymous No.15423601]

>>15422406
>imo
why do women and faggots do this? just assert what you think

[Anonymous No.15423606]

>>15423518
>imagine being dyslexic, failing to comprehend a simple sentence, and then committing to your irrelevant nonsense this hard
As expected from a reddit spacer.

>>15423519
I can read latin, retard, Ovid was the first Roman I read in full.

[Anonymous No.15423607]

>>15422635
It's actually more impressive that he didn't simply invent the languages on his own, and that they were a product of decades of scholarship.

Stay retarded, pleb

[Anonymous No.15423615]

>>15423585
How exactly am I underestimating it?

[Anonymous No.15423617]

>>15423571
At least post your source on this faggot. A poorly constructed pie chart isn't going to convince anyone. And stop autistically screeching about academia, no one gives a fuck what literary professors think.

[Anonymous No.15423618]

>>15423606
First of all, I am a scientist. Not in a sense that I am self-confessed scientist, but as someone whose work is recognized by my peers and my field of science is literature. You are the one here disagreeing with science and the scientific method by denying the chief influence of Tolkien's work that is the Kalevala.

[Anonymous No.15423636]

>>15423618
*teleports behind you*
*I have a higher h-index than you*
Nothing personnel, kid.

[Anonymous No.15423679]

>>15422439
I will have to

[Anonymous No.15423705]

>>15423606
>I can read latin, retard, Ovid was the first Roman I read in full.
First, there's very little difference in reading latin in origin vs. in translation. Second Ovid is still shit when read in latin, Metamorphoses is the poorest written epic I've read.

[Anonymous No.15423720]

>>15423705
You can probably make your own thread where you can discuss Ovid or the (dead) Latin language. This have nothing to do with Tolkien, unlike the Kalevala and Finnish language which are undoubtedly relevant to this thread.

[Anonymous No.15423745]

>>15423571
What exactly are the lines of the study?
I mean, there's plenty of substance in Tolkien's work that doesn't derive exclusively from the Kalevala:
>hobbits
>dwarves
>elves
>the talk with Smaug
>the magic ring
>the wanderer with many names
>the poetry
>Numenor
>Some of the "greek" valar
>the slavic brown wizzard

The list goes on...

[Anonymous No.15423749]

>>15423705
>First, there's very little difference in reading latin in origin vs. in translation
This is pure nonsense, his handle of language is paralleled by 2 maybe 3 writers in history.

>Second Ovid is still shit when read in latin
Even cringier

Remember, almost every Great Writer in human history after Ovid was influenced by him, and those who dislike him have small brain and a tiny penis.

>>15423720
Shut the fuck up, you are spamming this thread every day, if /lit/ was properly moderated you would get banned.

[Anonymous No.15423757]

>>15423745
>What exactly are the lines of the study?

Scientific method. Observation, peer reviews and academic discussion. We are not here to spoonfeed your, simply tell you: DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

Doesn't change the fact that if Tolkien was alive today, he would also tell you that the main influence of his works was The Kalevala.

[Anonymous No.15423763]

>>15423757
Based troll

[Anonymous No.15423791]

>>15422635
>>15422638
>>15422665
>>15422712
>>15422773
>>15422807
>>15422844
>>15422855
>>15422866
>>15422903
>>15423084
>>15423259
>>15423404
>>15423541
>>15423568
>>15423571
>>15423585
Are you retarded or just bored? I honestly can't tell but either way it's peak autism.

[Anonymous No.15423802]

>>15423757
That isn't true.
You can see a lot more germanic influence than finnish, despite the big importance of the Kalevala.
His work is majorly influenced by norse/germanic myths. That's plain to see. I don't get where the doubt lies in this...

[Anonymous No.15423807]

>>15423791
Sure, autism of others explain your lack of brain, madame.

[Anonymous No.15423822]

>>15423807
Spamming threads with
>TOLKIEN STOLE FROM THE FINNS
and variations, is peak autism. You contribute nothing of value to the topic, you only reinforce your own conclusions and sound like a retard.
>BUT MUH ACADEMIA
Yeah no one cares, academia is filled with hacks.

[Anonymous No.15423837]

>>15423822
I never said any of that shit.
I'm the one reflecting on the importance of the Eddas.
You mentioned this post of mine>>15423568
without a reason dude.

[Anonymous No.15423855]

>>15423837
It was aimed at the retard finn, if that wasn't you then my bad.

[Anonymous No.15423858]

>>15423802
Why does Tolkien himself say then things like this then:

>“It [discovering Finnish] was like discovering a wine-cellar filled with bottles of amazing wine of a kind and flavour never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me.”

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Letters, 87)

>Quenya is a constructed language created by Professor J. R. R. Tolkien. According to its creator, Quenya's main models were Latin, Finnish and Greek. It could perhaps be said that Finnish was the most important of these in the beginning, because it gave Tolkien the initial impulse to create Quenya. Finnish influence does indeed seem strong in the earliest forms of the language, at least in vocabulary, where many words are Finnish in style.

Why he never mentions these norse or germanic myths? He mostly talks of the Finnish myths in his private letters and conversation with other people

Why is this?

[Anonymous No.15423864]

>>15423858
Why are you so obsessed with this?

[Anonymous No.15423868]

Why Tolkien never mentions these Eddas, Norse Myths, Germanic myths in his letters or why his biographers never mention these, but only his obsession with the Kalevala.

The first book Tolkien ever wrote was a translation of the Story of Kullervo. Not some German or Scandinavian myths, Kullervo is Finnish.

[Anonymous No.15423874]

>>15423855
I'm on the side of those who want a quality debate, not a brainlet rumble :)

[Anonymous No.15423878]

Kalevala is mentioned in Tolkien's letters and private diaries over 47 times. Eddas are not mentioned once.

This fact also speaks something to any neutral observer.

[Anonymous No.15423886]

>>15423874
Good luck debating with an autistic retard who only wants his own takes reinforced then.

[Anonymous No.15423890]

What's your native language (as if I even have to ask) and why are you posting on 4chan when your English is so poor? Does your shithole country not have imageboards?

[Anonymous No.15423893]

>>15423858
You have a problem dude.
I never said the Kalevala is unimportant. Just that you are over exaggerating it's influence

[Anonymous No.15423898]

>>15423868
>>15423878
>Number of unique posters stays the same

[Anonymous No.15423908]

>>15423893
Aren't you underestimating the Finnish influence with statements like that?

[Anonymous No.15423950]

>>15423890
What's wrong with my English?

[Anonymous No.15423954]

>>15423908
No, I'm not. It's an unbiased view, you should try it.

[Anonymous No.15424008]

>>15423954
Personally, I think it is a matter of pride for you.

You want equality, you want solidarity. You want all the world myths to be equal to Tolkien's mythos as some sort of display of universalism.

You have this basic idea that Tolkien was doing some sort of comparative religious study type of worldbuilding and picking the best fruits of those myths to build his fruit salad that is known as the Lord of the Rings. All flavors balanced, no element overpowering the delicious fantasy dish: all are equal, all are one. Like the One Ring to rule them all.

But this is where is your error, as was Sauron's.

[Anonymous No.15424097]

>>15424008
If this isn't enough to conclude this idiotic conversation, you're brain damaged, and I wish you all the best recovering from it.

[Anonymous No.15424134]

>>15424097
> Every Myth is Equal
> Finland is not Special
> Tolkien made it all up
> Finland had nothing do with this soup

This is how retarded you sound, my retard child. Stay ignorant.

[Anonymous No.15424167]

>>15424134
Never said any of that,
Brainlet.

[Anonymous No.15424211]

>>15424167
Why do you even read Tolkien? It is escapism for you

Finns understand it on a totally different level. They understand that it is about Us and our myths and our culture in a high fantasy setting. Like watching family genealogy or exploring the family tree of your ancestor

Your only way of understanding Tolkien stays on this level:
>dildo braggings
>slay le dragongs
>big mage with powerful spells, woah
>orcs vs. humans
>virgin elve pussies
>took an arrow in to the kne
>"run, fools" -- Gandhi
>spiders_attack_the_gemblos_while_they_sleep.mpg
>the little dude is actually a huge hero dude
>(size don' matter, kids [buy muy books])
>hop on my griffon, master Harry Potter

You can not "unlock" the myths because you have not familiarized yourself with the Kalevala.

Tell me, what is symbological signifance of the Silmarils? Or do you not understand that the forging of Silmarils is similar as the forging of the Sampo in Kalevala?

[Anonymous No.15424220]

>>15423858
>>15423868
>>15423878

Just check the image >>15424097

[Anonymous No.15424235]

>>15424211
I have never questioned the importance of the Kalevala. It is you that are trying to mae it the ultimate influence of Tolkien, which it isn't.
Sorry, the Kalevala is important, but germanic myths are the basis of Middle Earth >>15424097

[Anonymous No.15424241]

>>15424211
t. autistic retard

[Anonymous No.15424287]

>>15424220
That image, quite frankly, proves nothing.

Satan is also mentioned in the bible way more than times than God, but we all know God is the most powerful being of the Bible

[Anonymous No.15424293]

>>15424241
>waaah he insulted book i like de hobbit HE has cool sword muhh dwarves LOOK AT THIS SWORD

kill yourself

[Anonymous No.15424310]

>>15424287
Suuuuure buddy :)

[Anonymous No.15424324]

>>15424293
>kill yourself

[Anonymous No.15424332]

>>15424293
Also if you think that was my issue with your post you're even more retarded than I already thought you were lmao

[Anonymous No.15424335]

>>15422635
if you'd read Tolkien's work, you'd know that he was saying that Finnish (as well as other European languages) derived their language from the Elves, not the other way around.

[Anonymous No.15424370]

>>15424287
I hope you get better from your brain damage :^)

[Anonymous No.15424386]

>>15424287
I hope you get better from your brain damage, buddy :^)

[Anonymous No.15424529]

>>15422635
Finns stole from Tolkien

[Anonymous No.15425046]

>>15422635
"Good artists borrow, great artists steal" - Picasso