/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15255054]

Why do all those German philosophers like Hegel and Schopenhaur get so much credit when they just copied what ancient Indian philosophers figured out thousands of years earlier? Not only that but the Indians were able to express it much more clearly and without being an obscurantist and charlatan about it.

[Anonymous No.15255079]

>>15255054
>when they just copied what ancient Indian philosophers
They didn't.

[Anonymous No.15255081]

>>15255054
Because claiming a bunch of flying sword wielding cow shit deities told you something is not the same as deriving it from logical arguments, which is not the same as deriving it from scientific evidence.

4000 year old sutras are cow shit deity arguments.
Schopenhauer and Hegel are logical (but sadly metaphysical arguments).
The scientific counterpart is perhaps yet to arrive. Maybe Popper.

[Anonymous No.15255100]

>>15255081
Cope. Hegel straight up copied Ying and Yan with his thesis antithesis

[Anonymous No.15255117]

>>15255100
>Some trippy esoteric shit vaguely resembles my arguments on a metaphoric level.
>That means I must be copying it.
None of your thoughts are original if you want to go that far.

[Anonymous No.15255119]

>>15255081
>claiming a bunch of flying sword wielding cow shit deities told you something
Soul
>deriving it from logical arguments
Soulless
>deriving it from scientific evidence
Decaying Corpse

[Anonymous No.15255172]

>>15255119
based

[Anonymous No.15255201]

>>15255079
Hegels "we are all one spirit" was straight up ripped off of them

[Anonymous No.15255231]

>>15255054
>>15255100
HOLY KEK if you actually believe this

>>15255201
Hegel never said that

[Anonymous No.15255243]

>>15255231
Hegel thought that all mater in the universe was "spirit". Nice showing you don't actually know about him

[Anonymous No.15255247]

>>15255054
Any good books on German Indology.

[Anonymous No.15255254]

It didn't. Modern Hinduism was actually massively influenced by western philosophy, philology, and esotericism (through Blavatsky's Theosophy movement which was very active in India, especially among elites), imposed on it by the conquerors, to the point that there really is no one "Hinduism." Hinduism is a modernist/romantic nationalist construction, with heavy Protestant bias because the international audience whose acceptance the Indian elites wanted, in "rediscovering their authentic national soul," was a Protestant one heavily influenced by German idealism.

Prior to the 19th century there really is no one Hindu tradition. It was a massive melting pot of different traditions, mostly folk and bhakti, which it still pretty much is under the surface. It had been losing distinctness and existing mostly at the folk/local level for centuries under Mughal rule before the Europeans showed up.

When the Europeans arrived they essentially invented modern critical philology, collating the locals' texts for them, trying to find the "real" local religion and traditions underneath the accumulated cruft of centuries of merely folk ritual. They did this because they presumed that the countries they had subjugated must have histories on the same basic structure as European history: there must be a "central" religious backbone (a Hinduism corresponding to Christianity), an inevitably switchover from polytheism to monotheism (Vedas to Upanishads, paganism to Christianity), inevitable schisms (Christianity=Buddhism to Judaism=Brahmanism, and later Catholics vs. Protestants), inevitable soteriology based faiths as against mere ritualism (Christianity=Buddhism again). Europeans assumed that there must be one "real" textual tradition corresponding to this central religio-philosophical tradition "Hinduism," and in presuming this, to better understand their conquered subjects they spent two centuries piecing together its literature and creating its modern canonical textual traditions.

[Anonymous No.15255273]

>>15255254
It was inevitable that the Indians would begin participating in this themselves, as colonialism became less about subjugation and more about the active participation of the conquered in governing their own countries within the empire. So what happens? In the 19th century, a bunch of Hindu reformers arise, like Ram Roy and Vivekananda, who basically understand Hinduism along deist-Protestant lines, the very same ones popular in Europe. They travel around Europe and America popularizing their unified, deistic-modernist-romantic-national "Hinduism" as the original and authentic tradition of India, just as India is beginning to assert itself as a proud country on the world stage.

During this, they come into contact with the growing Theosophical movement, which becomes very popular among India's elites because of its new age, orientalist veneration of exotic eastern religions, especially Indians and Tibetans.

When Europeans want to praise the Indian "other," they praise it by saying "look how well it accords with our best and highest theories of deism, pantheism, our esoteric interests." Indians hear this and accept it, even though what Europeans are really doing is like comparing a few fragments of Porphyry mentioning a "world-soul" to Hegel, and saying look, Porphyry figured it all out thousands of years ago! Indians hear this praise and assume their Upanishads, now increasingly interpreted under modern European idealism, are the greatest philosophical tradition the world has ever seen.

Of course this filters down to the low-level nationalism of semi-literate or illiterate Indians who have never read a single piece of philosophy. Search around, the internet is absolutely full of semi-literate Indian dads with 56k internet connections claiming INDIA BEST, INDIA INVENTED THE WASHING MACHINE IN 3000BC! They're peasants undergoing industrialization, it's to be expected that they are searching for identity and for assurances that their traditions are strong and awesome.

>>15255247
Raymond Schwab is the best place to start although it's more about the English and French. It's still a classic and a good prelude to the German scholars. Russell McCutcheon might point you in the right direction with his bibliography, and he'll at least give you the major names you need to know: Schiller, Schleiermacher, etc. down through Eliade.

[Anonymous No.15255365]

Schopenhauer himself said that he read about eastern religions after writing The World as a Will, and Hegel got influences from western hermeticism.

[Anonymous No.15255531]

>>15255119
Based and Indo-European pilled.

[Anonymous No.15255572]

>>15255273
Will India ever be able to build from their philosophies without a Eurocentric Protestant framework? Are there any Indians who are aware of this situation and are working against it?

[Anonymous No.15255654]

>>15255273
>>15255254
typical Jewish post-modern attempted "deconstruction" of traditions much more older and more important than western scholarship

[Anonymous No.15256426]

>>15255572
Most scholars don't care about philosophy or religion because they are secular. They only care about freeing up India "culturally" and globally/economically. Chakrabarty's Provincializing Europe is a leading example of this. This is now the norm in academia, which is obsessed with postcolonialism and flagellating Europe for ever thinking was the default or leading civilization against which others should be judged, but they implicitly assume that nations should be liberal-democratic cosmopolitan participants in the world economy, and that emphasizing diversity and plurality means that countries like India should its contribute unique viewpoints to this.

Some people who take the Heideggerian project seriously are trying to do a similar thing to break out of European "Cartesianism," the dialectic of enlightenment, the technological "Gestell," etc. Yuk Hui's Cosmotechnics is a good example, so is Tim Ingold, or that How Forests Think book. They are trying to recover/uncover pre-capitalist, pre-enlightenment ways of being in the world, other instinctive relationships toward nature. A lot of this is really pretentious and full of idiots, like Michael Marder. Again a lot of the academic guys simply presume liberal democratic nations in a capitalist world economy, they just want to make it nicer and more green.

The few people who take religion and philosophy seriously tend to be operating within religio-philosophical frameworks themselves, so they tend to be biased and closed-minded. They respond to the perceived deconstruction of their traditions by naively asserting the simplifying and reductive unity of those traditions that Europeans imposed on them in the first place. India is in a bad state, it's filled with guru cult leaders who are increasingly becoming CEOs of tech startups (not joking, and this process is accelerating 10x every passing year) and nationalists who don't care about anything other than India being "respected" in meaningless ways.

It's hard to imagine either the secular cosmopolitans or the dumbass chauvinists coming up with anything. The cosmopolitans have enough critical apparatus to maybe dig for interesting things in India's past and revitalize the project of comparative religions, but they have no inclination to do so, and wouldn't recognize anything even if they found it. The chauvinists have no critical sensitivity at all and will believe any two-bit guru or youtube video telling them that Shankara lived on the moon in 5000BC, and this process is accelerating as more barely literate pre-industrial Indian peasants get access to the internet on their Chinese burner phones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yg6FpeNj0w

[Anonymous No.15256668]

>>15256426
Well that's a shame, thanks for the reply though.

[Anonymous No.15257129]

>>15255100
>t. never read Hegel

[Anonymous No.15257263]

>>15255572
UG has been thinking about it

[Anonymous No.15257291]

>>15256426
>Some people who take the Heideggerian project seriously are trying to do a similar thing to break out of European "Cartesianism," the dialectic of enlightenment, the technological "Gestell," etc. Yuk Hui's Cosmotechnics is a good example, so is Tim Ingold, or that How Forests Think book. They are trying to recover/uncover pre-capitalist, pre-enlightenment ways of being in the world, other instinctive relationships toward nature. A lot of this is really pretentious and full of idiots, like Michael Marder. Again a lot of the academic guys simply presume liberal democratic nations in a capitalist world economy, they just want to make it nicer and more green.
This is me.

How do I get involved with true religion? I cannot believe in kikeshit and even occultism is kikish.

>meet local pagans
They're all awful tumblr witches tho?

I have been meaning to read Apocalyptic Witchcraft and some other titles by Scarlet Imprint.

What do you make of
>myth of disenchantment
?

[Anonymous No.15258375]

>>15257291
Not sure anon. In my ideal world there would be a revival of comparative religions but with genuine respect for the esoteric dimension of each tradition. The current academic standard of studying religions as "cultures" is less loaded with presuppositions, its presuppositions are just secular/materialist.

But I don't like the traditionalist or conventional occultist route either, it leads to cults at worst, dilettantes and poseurs at best. The traditionalists are a good example. Eliade came up with a bunch of primordial symbols/myths only he was convinced of. Schuon started a sex cult. Self-proclaimed Guenonians are mostly dabblers, or only in it through inertia, and there are some dangerous ones.

I find the Steiner people interesting but they have their own problems. Steiner wants a scientific and universal occultism, with no abusive gurus, but he doesn't seem to have minded playing the guru rule himself and making everyone follow his weird unjustified visions.

How come you're drawn to neopagan themes? Do you want a chthonic European tradition?

Do you mean the Josephson-Storm book? I haven't read it, is it good?

[Anonymous No.15258423]

>>15255243
>Hegel thought that all mater in the universe was "spirit"
Not even close

[Anonymous No.15258514]

>>15255119
based and truth pilled

[Anonymous No.15258625]

>>15258375
>The current academic standard of studying religions as "cultures" is less loaded with presuppositions, its presuppositions are just secular/materialist.

Just noticing this typo an hour later, I meant "no less loaded" with presuppositions.

[Anonymous No.15258695]

>>15258423
>"All reality is spirit"

[Anonymous No.15258815]

>>15255654
>Argument: ad hom
Go back to /pol/

[Anonymous No.15259031]

>>15255081

[Anonymous No.15259043]

Indian philosophpy stole from Hermes anyway

[Anonymous No.15259058]

>>15259031
Science never said that though. Race isn't a single person that isn't susceptible to chance

[Anonymous No.15259063]

>>15255273
>>15255572
>>15256426
>>15255254
prolly the most retarded of word salads ive seen in a while

[Anonymous No.15259079]

>>15255572
U.G Krishnamurti would shit on India constantly

[Anonymous No.15259086]

>>15259063
Protip: If you think something is word salad, you are the problem. You just don't know enough about the topic.

[Anonymous No.15259126]

>>15259031
Science says the races have different IQ. One of the races with the highest IQ are Ashkenazi Jews, followed by East Asian. Northern and Western European comes in third. At least you goys aren't african I guess

[Anonymous No.15259131]

>>15259086
(pic related)

>>15259058
>what are averages of collective bodies, which is what humans operate as

[Anonymous No.15259151]

>>15259126
Israel has a pretty low IQ.

[Anonymous No.15259155]

>>15259151
statically no. it is brought down by arabs/berber, persians, and eastern european

[Anonymous No.15259180]

>>15259155
cool cope bro, Israel has a lower IQ than the US and it doesn't even have 45 million Africans

[Anonymous No.15259189]

>>15259155
>>15259180
israel has an average iq of 95 with 20% or so of its population being arabs, no persians tho. while i do agree with the genetic and therefore racial component of iq, lynn's tests outsideof the west are notoriusly bad with their sample sizes etc, so if u want the idnividual iq of a country its better to look for an individual study focusing on that polity

[Anonymous No.15259197]

>>15259189
>lynns test are notoriously bad
The studies that inflate the Ashkenazi IQ are notoriously bad too.

One thing I find funny is that it's German Jews who are smart, but not Jews overall. Meanwhile Germans, Jew or not, are smart. It's almost like Germans are smart, not Jews.

[Anonymous No.15259258]

>>15259197
ye im not supporting the tests that inflate jew iq lmao, im simply statin a fact

[Anonymous No.15259276]

>>15259058
Science never says anything, because science is an ever-changing consensus that makes truth claims despite being an amalgamation of accepted theories.

>>15255054
All the Indians did was copy the cave man philosophers, who copied the monkey philosophers, who copied the lizard philosophers, who copied the fish philosophers, who copied the algae philosophers, who copied the cell philosophers, who copied the ur-ocean philosophers, who copied the space philosophers, who copied the...
TL;DR nothing is new under the sun, get used to it and stop accusing people with marginally similar beliefs or philosophies of copying without proving there has been an effort to copy. Two different people can arrive upon the same conclusion, it's not that difficult

As well as the customary "cope, cringe, seethe, dilate, have sex, and so on."

[Anonymous No.15259318]

>>15258375
>trad
Ya. Seems like a larp. I could only do it in a sort of Straussian esoteric way. Guenonian is equally incompatible with my beliefs too.
>occult
I am a dabbler. But every organization has terrible hierarchies. And I am not wholly opposed to hierarchy -- tho I would imagine there must be checks and balances...
>steiner
Only know vaguely from the Tomberg connection and Micheal Martin works on Sophiology -- the whole biodynamic thing is cool. I am partial to autonomy and autarchy and so on.
>neopagan
More like drawn to Egyptian and Greek themes. Hermeticism and Gnosticism and the like. Uzdavinys blew my mind. Especially since I am an undergrad philosopher. Makes me believe in a philosophical tradition. Mayhaps we will enter a Sloterdijkian era of anthropotechnics. That would be nice. Foucault's Hermeneutics of the Subjecr and Hadot are also good entry points for that line of thought. But where to learn theurgy?
>cthonic european
I'm too scared to mess with PGM and Goetia but I did enjoy Geosophia and Skinner.

Have you ever heard of dual faith?
>worship god on sunday
>summon demons during the week
Kinda cool but also not my thing. About as close to my thing as exists tho.

>Josephsen-Storm
Ya. Btfos secularism.

[Anonymous No.15259869]

>>15255054
read MahaPrajnaParamita-Sastra by Nagarjuna

[Anonymous No.15259952]

>>15259276
>because science is an ever-changing consensus that makes truth claims despite being an amalgamation of accepted theories.
Science simply follows empirical evidence, consensus is based on current knowledge of evidence, which in turn is dependent on the degree of ignorance of the empirical world. There will come a time where knowledge of the empirical world will have been illuminated to the point where the changing consensus reaches a limit.

[Anonymous No.15259968]

>>15258695
try to actually read him instead of a spark notes version of his ideas

[Anonymous No.15260005]

>>15255100
A polar world is not exactly a unique thought

[Anonymous No.15260022]

>>15259952
>In itself, the insight is not new. The earliest records to my knowledge date back some 2,500 years or more. From the early great Upanishads the recognition ATMAN = BRAHMAN upheld in (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought considered, far from being blasphemous, to represent the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of the world. The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate in their minds this grandest of all thoughts. Again, the mystics of many centuries, independently, yet in perfect harmony with each other (somewhat like the particles in an ideal gas) have described, each of them, the unique experience of his or her life in terms that can be condensed in the phrase: DEUS FACTUS SUM (I have become God).
There will come a point where the empirical sciences will catch up to Indian thought and realize the whole project was leading up to the undeniable truth of non-duality, quantum mechanics comes closest to this truth but modern sci*ntists are trying desperately to escape this truth because they are attached to materialsm, local realism, quantitative atomism, mechanized determinism, etc. to even fathom this Truth.

[Anonymous No.15260042]

>>15260022
>post ends in 0022
>dub dubs
>0 = non, not
>02 = non dual
>0022 = neti, neti
holy based (pbuh).....