gibbon decline and fall

[Anonymous No.15161876]

is this worth reading?

[Anonymous No.15161880]

>>15161876
Yes.

[Anonymous No.15162277]

I hope so because I spent $50 for an older version of pic related.

[Anonymous No.15162303]

Bought it a couple of years ago but haven’t read it.

[Anonymous No.15162310]

>>15162303
...you should probably buy the first half first?

[Anonymous No.15162317]

>>15162310
He did buy both halves silly billy

[Anonymous No.15162348]

>>15162317
Whoops thought he just opened the box, the placement and placing second volume first is giving me cancer

[Anonymous No.15162358]

>>15162303
are those Mexican pesos?

[Anonymous No.15162361]

>>15161876
Hmmm, strange. My edition only has three volumes, but I believe it’s complete within those three. Volume three says it goes up till the fall of Constantinople.

Does anyone know if the modern library edition is abridged in 3 volumes? Seems unlikely.

[Anonymous No.15162377]

>>15161876
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he get a lot of the history wrong?

[Anonymous No.15162380]

>>15162358
They are, my dude.

[Anonymous No.15162387]

>>15162380
based mexibro

[Anonymous No.15162446]

>>15162377
>but didn't he get a lot of the history wrong?

History is a matter of personal interpretation, therefore it can never be "wrong," just aesthetically unpleasing. Gibbon doesn't write a single bad sentence, therefore he is a great historian.

[Anonymous No.15162485]

>>15162377
Modern historians have entirely moved on from Gibbon's conclusions if that's what you were asking. His prose is still great and you still get most of the facts, though.

>>15162446
>History can never be wrong
Nonsense.

[Anonymous No.15162500]

>>15162485
Any examples on how modern historians differ from Gibbon?

[Anonymous No.15162515]

>>15162277
Why do you have this saved on your computer?

[Anonymous No.15162560]

>>15162361
Protip, leave a bit of nail when you cut your nails or you come of as a psycho to women.

Nice collection, is it better than Oxford Collections do you think?

[Anonymous No.15162588]

>>15162560
>Protip, leave a bit of nail when you cut your nails or you come of as a psycho to women.

virgin detected

gotta go low so you can fingerblast all night and not nick her

protip, rub your fingertips along your eyelids, if you can feel the edge they will feel the edge

[Anonymous No.15162595]

>>15162588
Implying my wife doesnt like pain,
youve never slapped and strangled your girl to orgasm I imagine.

Also answer my question!

[Anonymous No.15162608]

>>15162500
Take a guess anon.

[Anonymous No.15162612]

>>15162500
Essentially, the end of the Roman Empire in the west is no longer viewed as simply a "fall" and more as an event within a historical trend. Additionally, the "degeneration" theory is completely disregarded as the nonsense it is.

>"It should be clear from the foregoing that the Roman Empire did not 'fall' in the fifth century, but was transformed into something new. There was no sharp break with the past, but an adjustment in the ways in which the Empire and its constituent parts were administered. There can be no doubt that the change was on a large scale, and was of considerable significance but, if the eschatological themes of much of the source material produced by churchmen are laid aside, there does not appear to have been a sense of the imminent disintegration of the Roman world amongst contemporaries."

Modern theories on the fall of Rome in the west include:

>Over time, the Germanic tribes adapted to the Roman military and unified politically, and when the Huns invaded, the subsequent instability and successive Germanic invasions overwhelmed the Romans

>There was no fall at all, merely a transformation, as the Roman administration and bureaucratic systems continued to exist in most former regions of the Empire

>The constant trade-offs made by Emperors for short-term political stability, such as the extreme centralization of the military in order to avoid constant civil war (best exemplified by the Crisis of the Third Century and its resolution,) lead to internal weakness: the risk of civil war was eventually reduced at the expense of the strength of the border and a highly increased tax burden

[Anonymous No.15162614]

>>15162588
Yep, this and it helps to keep them short for playing guitar.

[Anonymous No.15162626]

>>15162612
Interesting to see how the new propagandists, sorry I mean "Teachers" have reimagined the fall.

I guess so that fewer people realise that Old America is dead and has been replaced by the new Coastal America.

[Anonymous No.15162636]

>>15162595
nah sorry man im not the the OP with the pic related you want I was just busting your balls

in general my i enjoy my classics from the oxford better since I prefer their notes

[Anonymous No.15162646]

>>15162636
No probs lol.
Between Oxford, Cambridge and Harvard classics I can never decide.
Cambridge is suppose to be the Linguistics school but Oxford classics seem better written.

[Anonymous No.15162662]

>>15162626
I would love to see you attempt a serious, informed rebuttal to any one of those theories, but I can tell you won't because you're likely a /pol/tard brainlet by the looks of things.

[Anonymous No.15162681]

>>15162560
>Protip, leave a bit of nail when you cut your nails or you come of as a psycho to women.
For real? I bite my nails like a crazy person. They look fucked up and homeless.

[Anonymous No.15162737]

>>15162612
>It should be clear from the foregoing that the Roman Empire did not 'fall' in the fifth century, but was transformed into something new
>but was transformed into something new
>something new
>new

[Anonymous No.15162766]

>>15162662
Considering the fact you already labeled me while having minimum information on who I am while defending a conclusion from a group of elites whose lifes are based on scabbing for funds money while giving their masters any conclusions they asks for, leads me to the conclusion that any debate with you would be fruitless and a waste of time.

[Anonymous No.15162796]

>>15162681
>I bite my nails like a crazy person
There you go. I suggest you listen to some relaxation decibel sounds, they really work! Do 5 mins or so. Theres an app called Atmosphere that has a bunch for free.

[Anonymous No.15162803]

>>15162737
>Replies with no argument, no intellectual content, just picking some point made that triggers him for some unknown reason and pointing at it

Wouldn't expect anything more from a /pol/tard

>>15162766
>Defending a conclusion from a group of elites
First of all, I never defended anything. Second, yes, I value the opinions of elites when it comes to the study of history, because I am not a moron and I understand that these people have dedicated far more of their life to reading primary and secondary sources and understanding the complexities of their chosen period of focus.

>giving their masters any conclusions they asks for
You don't have a clue how academia works.

Don't bother replying if you're not going to make an evidence-based argument against >>15162612

[Anonymous No.15162821]

>>15162626
t. propagandist

[eLIT !!+yp8kR80iN5 No.15162827]

>>15161876
I just bought it yesterday and gonna pick it up today. I'm buying it for the prose, as you recommended. I hope you fuckers were not memeing this shit.

[Anonymous No.15162840]

>>15162803
>doesnt know how to green text
>defends the ivory tower

Certified Dog of the state here. Did you get your upcummies from your "Educator" Did you jump through all the right hoops?
Did you make sure to not insult your Jewish masters? LOL

Americans really are hopeless, I guess its all the toxic lead in your baby formula.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/25/these-baby-foods-and-formulas-tested-positive-arsenic-lead-and-bpa-new-study/794291001/

[Anonymous No.15162863]

>>15162803
Let me give you a 101 American History lesson.
You see the brown shit area on the map, Thats the old heart of America, now a rusted old bucket.

You see the piss yellow area, those are the Mexican slaves that make up the new slave population of Coastal America.

The entire area represents a shit sandwich filled with mindless NPC drones who watch football (done with arms) and drink Coca cola, a fizzy drink that rots your brain.
Everyday clasping onto their pocket Constitutions as if they mean anything.

[Anonymous No.15162881]

>>15162612
>There can be no doubt that the change was on a large scale, and was of considerable significance
so something huge and significant happened
>but, if the eschatological themes of much of the source material produced by churchmen are laid aside,
but it didn't happen, it was a myth?? lemme read on
>there does not appear to have been a sense of the imminent disintegration of the Roman world amongst contemporaries.
Ok so something huge happened but some contemporaries didn't sense it would be an imminent disintegration except maybe for the church. Well that changes everything.

[Anonymous No.15162933]

>>15162840
>>15162863
And here we see the degeneration of the mind of a /pol/tard, unable to argue against that which goes against his autistic worldview, instead resorting to vague xenophobia and conspiracy theories

>>15162881
You've misunderstood, it's not about myths. What those sentences mean is that contemporary priests simply compared the fall of Rome to the biblical apocalypse, which is obviously not objective enough for a historian. Meanwhile the writings of non-priest contemporaries do not paint the fall as apocalyptic. The point is that the fall was, in the moment, mostly just a change in the leadership of Italy, Iberia, North Africa, Gaul.

And again, this is only one theory. Many if not most historians believe "it was purely a transformation" or "it was only a change in leadership" to be false. The 'correct' answer, if there can be one, is most likely a combination of the three theories.

[Anonymous No.15162949]

>>15162612
>After hundreds of years of archaeology, research, and examination of various sources we still don't have an agreement on why one of the biggest influences on the modern west fell
Amazing. This is why I read primary sources and not secondary.

[Anonymous No.15162962]

>>15162933
Pic is you when the Chinese finally conquer America.

[Anonymous No.15162965]

>>15162626
take your meds

[Anonymous No.15162967]

>>15162500
he didn't like jews very much

[Anonymous No.15162972]

>>15162933
>I believe what Im told
Hasnt read anything forbidden

[Anonymous No.15162976]

>>15162933
Cant refute anything
Quick call the person a pol tard
haha, I won the battle
God your boring

[Anonymous No.15162980]

>>15162972
>>15162976
Take your meds

[Anonymous No.15162983]

>>15162933
Seriously, take your meds.
I know you have them knowing the amount of pills you Americans down everyday

[Anonymous No.15162984]

>>15162949
eh that's the probably with facts. the more of them you have, a greater number of conclusions can claim validity

[Anonymous No.15162989]

>>15162972
Greetings, sir. Any recs?

[Anonymous No.15162996]

>>15162980
>Take your meds
Okay schlomo, youve just outed yourself.
Good luck with all those Hasetic Jews with the coof

[Anonymous No.15163024]

>>15162989
Martin Luthers The Jews and Their Lies
David Dukes My Awakening
The Israel Lobby or The Transparent Cable, the first is the best
The Backdoor to War, Roosevelt Policy

The Occult Renaissance of Rome - Difficult book to find, can buy from independent
Hope and Tragedy - Quigley, best History book

[Anonymous No.15163035]

>>15163024

[Anonymous No.15163045]

>>15162380
Let's put some facemasks and go buy gansitos.

[Anonymous No.15163049]

>>15162446
Retarded nigger monkey tier take

[Anonymous No.15163057]

>>15162972
Idiot, that was the rough estimation of all the Jews in Europe. It ain't no se secret.

[Anonymous No.15163061]

>>15161876
If you want to read about 18th century British understanding of Rome, instead of reading about the Roman history.

[Anonymous No.15163084]

>>15163024
>martin luther, david duke

fuck yeah, make believe

[Anonymous No.15163098]

>>15163084
David Duke and Martin Luther are better qualified than youll ever be.
P.s. You will never be a member of congress.
Let that Sink In

[Anonymous No.15163107]

>>15163061
I only read books from the 20th century and before. Books after that are written by dead brains. Especially Academia.

[Anonymous No.15163115]

>>15163098
love how you can only argue against neolibs so you invent a persona for me

>better qualified
to what? destroy christianity and endorse tulsi gabbard? btfo

[Anonymous No.15163119]

>>15163107
Too based

[Anonymous No.15163130]

>>15163115
>Defender of Economic Parasites
>Defender of Academic Parasites
Yes anon, your psychological profile is coming along nicely.
Tell me about the time you realized taking food from a master rather than finding it for yourself became the bedrock of your philosophy.

[Anonymous No.15163145]

>>15163115
What you will never see written about the Roman Empire is the Jewish plot to kill Caeser after he decided to correct the economical situation caused by the trading of export gold by invading the East, and Israel.

[Anonymous No.15163147]

>>15163130
please post more thousand word low quality schizo images

[Anonymous No.15163187]

>>15163147
Do Kikes ever get bored with the
>Take your meds
>Schizo!
Threads?
Pure projection of the Jewish Schizo medicated mind.

[Anonymous No.15163195]

>>15163147
The Jewish mind is a mystery.
Well, Ive been written an essay on how Jews developed such a schizo mind as a way of marrying ayran women because they took one look at Jewish women and realised they were totally insane and unbareable.

Tell me anon, when your mother failed to abort you with a rusty toothpick, so threw you in a river, why did you crawl back?

[Anonymous No.15163201]

>>15162612
>It should be clear from the foregoing that the Roman Empire did not 'fall' in the fifth century, but was transformed into something new.
Imagine actually believing this horseshit.

[Anonymous No.15163207]

>>15163187
>uh oh, my make-believe strawman of some anon isn't strong enough, I'll make him a jew too

[Anonymous No.15163211]

>>15162612
overextension
power struggles at the top
powerful senate looking out for themselves
quick successive emperors leaving everyone with a 'whos in charge again?' especially militarily
'Barbarians at the gates!'

wtf is there to think about you mook

[Anonymous No.15163223]

>>15162612
>you know guys in a way the Byzantine Empire never fell, not after the fall and sack of constantinople to the ottomans
>No you see it simply was a mere transformation!

what a moron

[Anonymous No.15163247]

>>15162612
>You know guys the Ming Dynasty never went away! Not after the fall of the government to republican forces, nor the loss of total power to the japanese and communists
>No it was merely a transformation!

[Anonymous No.15163250]

>>15163195
hello, epic department?

[Anonymous No.15163252]

>>15162967
neither did the romans

[Anonymous No.15163262]

>>15163207
Excellent, finally completed your psychosheet.
Anon, A spineless amoba who is impossible to pin down because he always retreats from his lost positions before quickly advancing citing his victorious battle.
Im sure we could have this chat all day anon and I would never be able to pin you down on anything.
The internet is perfect for someone like you. Constant reaffermation that the ideas planted in your head are correct without ever having to be challenged on anything.
What a fantastic life you life anon.

[Anonymous No.15163285]

>>15163262
please, continue seething

[Anonymous No.15163314]

>>15163285
Over what? Youre just wrong.
Away, Im bored now. Have fun being wrong by yourself anon.

[Anonymous No.15164348]

>>15162612
How coincidental that in the era in which we have relegated Great Man theory to the dustbin, the fall of Rome as well was the "result of a slow process of societal change", as everything seems to be these days. How coincidental that the Age of Democracy, in which bureaucrats rule and where nothing is ever anyone's fault, sees no Great Men in the past, no individuals who decide the course of history, but only societies and their invisible "processes". Of course, in this view, where the individual is (by definition) of no significance, of course in this view "degeneracy" doesn't exist. The Romans didn't become lazy or lax, they didn't rest on their laurels, they didn't naively assume "barbarians" would become Romans in due time -- because there were no "Romans". In this view of history, "Rome" as a society is greater than the sum of every individual Roman. They play the same trick, ironically, with the concept of "institutional racism" which just means you can say some organization is racist without having to point to any individual of that organization being racist. So Romans didn't suddenly become weak, Rome became weak. Whose fault is it? No one's fault. And if it's no one's fault, you can't prevent it. It's another "slow process of societal change." And if you can't prevent it, well, should an analogue happen today -- can you stop it? should you even try to stop it? Best to stop thinking of these questions.

[Anonymous No.15164641]

>>15162348
I hope it's something serious, like multiple myeloma.

[Anonymous No.15164761]

I was reading something recently about how are brains automatically translate "Decline and Fall" to "Rise and Fall". So readers are naturally confused when they starting reading it and it's already falling.

[Anonymous No.15164800]

So many ideologues itt

[Anonymous No.15164837]

>>15162612
lmao at these morons angry that history isn't videogames

[Anonymous No.15164842]

>>15164348
>Yo hol up let me pose with this staff this way. You got that? Nice now make me look like a GOAT.

[Anonymous No.15164856]

>>15164348
>Yo hol up hand me that fuckin staff oer ther and let me pose with it. Ya got that? Nice now make me look like a GOAT in the painting. Oh and make sure you add three inches to my height lmao.

[Anonymous No.15164866]

>>15164837
Anyway, it depends on which part of the empire you're talking about. An aristocrat in Provence or a bureaucrat in Italy would have felt the supposed "collapse" of the empire much less than a soldier or militiaman in Britain. You're paying taxes to or administrating shit for an ostrogoth or visigoth king instead than a roman emperor like your ancestors, but the content of daily life wouldn't change.

[Anonymous No.15164882]

>>15164856
You should see Canova's statue of Napoleon as Mars.

[Anonymous No.15164905]

Can someone give me a rundown of why it's worth reading? I always assumed it was just a decent history set, but is there more to it than that?

[Anonymous No.15165029]

>>15164348
haha yes what a coincidence haha

[Anonymous No.15165172]

>>15164905
It's an incredibly important work in Roman historiography, and it's also extremely well-written. Pretty much every other historian of Rome writing after Gibbon is responding to him in some way, either directly or indirectly. He's right more often than he is wrong, and even if some of his conclusions aren't correct, reading the book will give you a rock-solid grounding in Roman history to build on top of.

Also, lmaoing @ /pol/tards ITT furiously defending the Decline and Fall instead of being butthurt that it unfairly shits on Christianity and the Byzantines, like they usually do.

[Anonymous No.15165212]

Is Mommsen considered accurate? Or is considered out of date too?

[Anonymous No.15165215]

>>15165172
Which works should I read after it to get a better picture?
I mostly want to read it for the prose anyway.

[Anonymous No.15165219]

>>15165215
>I mostly want to read it for the prose anyway.
yikes

[Anonymous No.15165221]

>>15165219
What?

[Anonymous No.15165225]

Fuck it /lit/
I'm gonna read The Decline and Fall and finish it before the end of the quarantine. Wish me luck.

[Harmodius !SPQRgUJdp. No.15165241]

>>15162277

[Anonymous No.15165292]

>>15165215
Generally a good strategy is to find a specific topic/event/individual/area/etc. that seems interesting and then start searching for what's been written on it. Modern history writing is hyper-specialized, and books that deal with everything covered in the Decline and Fall just don't exist anymore. Obviously newer academic works are going to show up first in any online search, but if you look at what those books cite and work backwards you can find relevant older stuff as well.

[Anonymous No.15166372]

>>15164866
I think you may be wrong anon. Administration really changed under new Germanic rulers. Did you know that after taking over Africa Vandals hadn't to update administrative books for decades because the land was so rich? Have you heard how much land Ostrogoths took from natives in Italy? If I recall correctly it was about one third. The Mediterranean trade died, because the flow of annona militaris (army taxes in nature) was disrupted by Vandals who took over Africa and it's wheat fields, and time of travel or pilgrimage increased twofold. If some tribe took over the Egypt back then, Eastern Roman Empire would likely fall much earlier.

[Anonymous No.15166506]

>>15166372
If the Vandals didn't bother with administration and yet ruled the land, you're saying that effectively there was no collapse in North Africa. The bureaucratic apparatus was carried over intact and kept going under its own weight. You see what people mean by "there was no collapse"?
Think of Boethius. He was born a year after the last emperor was deposed, and yet he went through the usual empire civil service cycle of senator, consul etc like people like him had been doing for a millenium. When people say that the roman empire didn't collapse beyond the formal sense of the state ceasing to exist (excluding of course places like Britain) is because its institutions and practices (first among them of course the Catholic church) were not replaced, but rather survived under different leadership.

[Anonymous No.15167066]

>>15161876
Nobody knows, because nobody has lived long enough to finish it

[Anonymous No.15168374]

>>15162612
The center of the Roman empire moved to Byzantium, and slowly it started to splinter into East and West until they became two separate cultures. How is that not a fall? I mean, by the time of Constantine, the empire was completely different to how it was before the crisis of the third century. Chritianity become the official religion is enough reason to consider it a "fall".

[Anonymous No.15168756]

>>15162560
I'm the fingernail guy. I've never had the oxford collection for Gibbon. So I've got no idea. DESU, didn't even know they made hardcovers if that's what you meant.

[Anonymous No.15168764]

>>15165219
the prose is excellent

[Anonymous No.15169130]

>>15161876
Yeah, I'd give it a look.

[Anonymous No.15169139]

>>15165225
I never want quarantine to end. It's so nice never having to see other people or have conversations.

[Anonymous No.15169150]

>>15168374
*Tips fedora*

[Anonymous No.15169384]

>>15169150
Christianity overtaking the Roman Empire just shows how the Jews won and overtook the Roman civilization, not through war obviously as that is not how jews play the game. Jews are smart, they know that to conquer you have to first conquer the minds of the people, that is why they rule the world today, with their media hegemony that dictates how people should live their lives.

[Anonymous No.15169438]

>>15162612
Ehh, Gibbon's subject is essentially the formation of modern Europe through the movements of barbarian hordes and the rise (and immediate successes) of Islam. 'Fall' is obviously figurative as old Rome particularly in the shapes of language, law, and religion continued to exert enormous influence. That he concludes in 1453, the fall or the sacking of or the takeover of Constantinople, which is just a few moments away from early modern Europe, makes this plain. Few in this thread have actually read it, clearly, which makes me rather sad desu.

[Anonymous No.15169668]

>>15163252

[Anonymous No.15169726]

>>15169150
Read coulanges ancient city dumb ass.
It can be rightly considered a massive change in the society and a complete transformation in the social/cultural sphere. Not even to mention the political advantages of Christianity of allowing greater political centralizing.
You have to either say it was a great progress or a great decline. If it was a progress then it was because it "liberated" man from the bondage of his previous tradition.
More then likely you are just a coping cuck.
It was a decline faggot.

[Anonymous No.15170238]

>>15162608
Modern historians are all Jewish women?