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/lit/ - Literature

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15131526 No.15131526 [Reply] [Original]

What's the best writing advice that you've ever received? Or alternatively, found out through experience?

>> No.15131541

>>15131526
write every single day, no matter what

>> No.15131560
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15131560

>>15131541
okay

>> No.15131570
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15131570

>just draw everyday bro!

>> No.15131617

>>15131526

"A good story cannot be manufactured. It must be distilled."
— Raymond Chandler

Also from a practical point of view:

"Make your first paragraph short" (Hemingway)

"Try not to finish a big section and then stop, because you'll have to start cold the next day and it's much harder." (I forget who said this)

>> No.15131653

>>15131570
Literally this

>> No.15131660

>Omit needless words

>> No.15131681

It's over

>> No.15131686

This is kind of obvious – I heard it in middle school, as most people do – but it's a simple rule of thumb that makes any sentence, especially if you're writing an essay.
>Heaviest matter goes last.
Most of the time it's obvious, but if your phrase feels clumsy, just try it. It's especially good advice in my native language with its extremely free word order.

>> No.15131704

Try to always start and end a sentence with a strong word.

Minimize the use of verbal false limbs ("Be that as it may/ as it were" etc).

If you can remove a word without destroying the sentence's meaning do so.

Refrain if possible from using a comma until you are at least 2/3rds through the sentence. (my rule)

The first draft of everything is shit

>> No.15131707

>>15131526
http://paulgraham.com/talk.html

>> No.15131720
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15131720

>>15131526

>> No.15131733

All of James Scott Bell's writing books are G O L D

>> No.15131767

Professor calls me into his office near the end of my degree. Tells me I'm a good writer, he enjoys reading my work, we discuss my final paper etc.

At the end he says, "Anon you're going to get an A in my class. But what you need to understand is that if you are going to keep writing once you're out of school, no one will be getting paid to read your work."

I just assumed people would care about what I wrote, as long as I made it the best I could. You have to leave room for a reader though. Otherwise nobody fucking cares.

>> No.15131795

>>15131526
bugs....you need more carrots

>> No.15131801

>>15131767
>no one will be getting paid to read your work.
This goes for any human interactions though. I feel like people are only nice to me when they're trying to sell me something, or I paid for their time.

>> No.15131863

>>15131526
>Read 1000 really good short stories and keep track of them
>write a short story every week for a year and don't throw anything away
>read 40-50 books a year minimum
>with your work, reread, revise, cut
They are arbitrary but have helped me a lot

>> No.15131933

>>15131863
how many words is your average short story?

>> No.15131965

>>15131560
damn

>> No.15131975

>>15131570
>>15131541
this but un ironically
the thing is you have to challenge yourself and be better than yesterday.
if not you become stagnant

>> No.15131977

>>15131541
pretty boiler plate bullshit imo. writing everyday doesn't make you a better writer if you never take a critical eye to your own work. assuming you'll get better through production alone doesn't work with writing.

>> No.15131985
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15131985

>>15131526
Not necessarily straight writing advice but one that's good to keep in mind if you're beginning to write and are disappointed that your work isn't as good as that of your favorite authors.

>> No.15132000

>>15131686
Can you provide an example of this in practice?

>> No.15132002

Something I've heard from a lot of writers and verified from my own experience:

WRITE IN THE MORNING

Get up, breakfast, short walk / work out, then write.

After noon, you can revise and do mechanical stuff, but you can't write anything original worth a damn.

>> No.15132004

>>15131977
>you'll get better through production alone doesn't work with writing.
I doesn't work with anything that much. Take it from me, a professional mediocrity. Although, even mediocrity is quite hard to achieve.

>> No.15132012

>>15132000
Sure I can: your mom.

>> No.15132016

>>15131720
thanks for this.
How did you find this

>> No.15132022

>>15132016
amazon best sellers

>> No.15132049

>>15131526
>don't write all your characters to be clever, write them so you can tell them apart

>take out more words than you add in. If you end up with less than nothing, it was an inessential idea in the first place

>thinking about spelling while writing means you're not thinking about writing

and, my favourite:
>stop being so fucking pretentious

>> No.15132051

>>15131526
start with a good plot, all themes and motifs are additions. pynchon said this but the two books ive read of him didnt have the strongest plots.

>> No.15132328

>>15132049
>>thinking about spelling while writing means you're not thinking about writing
Imagine being so low iq that spelling words correctly not only isn't the default but requires such effort that it detracts from your ability to write.

>> No.15132354

I met Neil Gaiman once and he said “create a body of work that can’t be ignored”

>> No.15132432

>>15132328
Holy shit you can't read, can you? I explicitly said "thinking about spelling", that doesn't have any bearing on one's actual spelling ability, nor one's intelligence. The point –regardless of whether you can spell or not– is that consciously fretting about it will actively disrupt the flow of writing, so you'll simply get less done. This was handy advice to me because I am mildly dyslexic and sometimes it is easy to get hung up in those kinds of things. Meanwhile you made that comment just to posture about your own intelligence, so I can only assume you are deeply insecure.

>> No.15132475

>>15132354
what a nigger

>> No.15132503

>>15132354

On /tv/ it's a sort of running joke to post a picture of an actress with the comment "What do you think of her body of work?"

I laugh every time.

>> No.15132522

>>15131526
"Don't"

>> No.15132578

>Show, don't tell. To a reader, 2+2 is more interesting than 4.
>Finish a work before going back and editing it.
>Use simple words.
>Speak clearly. Don't use 20 words where 1 or 2 will suffice, otherwise you might lose your reader's attention for no gain.

>> No.15132610

>>15132475
Nigger shit the fuck up, you don’t write.

>> No.15132616

>>15132578
>Show, don't tell
How does this apply to writing? This is a films thing

>> No.15132622

>>15132610
>>15132475
t. sad white people

>> No.15132645

>>15132616
Not him but it applies to literature as well. It's the difference between heavy exposition and illuminating all essential information through nothing more than language choice and literary devices.

>> No.15132650

>>15132616
Don’t introduce a character as “clever but hot-headed”, show them doing stuff exhibiting those traits

>> No.15132663

>>15132000
There are a few things that affect
the "heaviness" of a word or phrase. It could be the amount of syllables:
>I am an avid runner and a therapist.
bad
>I am a therapist and an avid runner.
better
It could also be a distionction between interesting and unisteresting:
>I came across a a corpse as I was going for a walk yesterday.
bad
>As I was going for a walk yesterday, I came across a corpse.
better

>> No.15132670

>>15132645
>>15132650
ok but a lot of writers go in depth with psychological motives of each actions like Tolstoy.

>> No.15132684

Read your work aloud while writing and editing.

>> No.15132690

>>15132670
And, as a result, Tolstoy ends up creating a tedious doorstopper of a novel, when instead he could've written like Nabokov (for example), in which his prose communicates beautifully nothing but the most essential elements he wanted to express. Apologies if you like Tolstoy, but he is nothing if not inefficient

>> No.15132708

>>15132690
That is your opinion. Him being considered one of the greats is a fact. So this breaches the 'show. but don't tell' rule.

>> No.15132720

>>15131526
START FUCKING WRITING. LITERALLY PHYSICALLY OPEN WORD PROCESSOR AND START FUCKING WRITING.

this is the best advice. Otherwise you will constantly thinking about writing, reading books about writing, watching youtube videos about writing, talking on 4chan about tips on writing but never actually writing. You will end like those dudes who read books about self-improvement but never do any self-improvement.

and don't get me wrong. Reading stuff about the craft, talking about it on 4chan or on youtube or whatever isn't bad. It will help you a lot if YOU ACTUALLY START FUCKING WRITING.

>> No.15132768

>>15132720
What makes you think he isn’t already doing that and that you need to yell at him about it?

>> No.15132785

>>15131660
>condensare

>> No.15132808

>>15131801
be the change you wish to see in the world, my friend

>> No.15132836

>>15132002
all due respect, i work completely opposite. I can only write between midnight and 4 a.m. I guess that technically counts as the morning though..

>> No.15132862

>>15132432
lmao, look at how long your reply is. You are the insecure one. You being dyslexic also proves his point exactly
>him: it detracts from your ability to write
>you: it is easy to get hung up in those kinds of things

>> No.15132882

>>15131541
thanks for ruining the thread

>> No.15132891

>>15131863
Doesn't sound like it leaves you a lot of time to read the stories once they are written, and understand why some were good and other weren't, what tools achieved what effects, etc.

>> No.15132898

>>15132708
>Him being considered one of the greats is a fact
Effete and meaningless appeal to authority. Formulate and defend your own opinions, kid.

>> No.15132909

>>15132836
I used to be like that, but that was when I was "waiting for an inspiration". Now that I'm working on a novel and must have a steady workflow, it's easier to write first thing in the morning. Also I have a job now so fuck being awake after 23:00

>> No.15132923

>>15132616
That's literally the number one advice in writing.

>> No.15132926

>>15131541
This

>> No.15132931

>>15131985
what a voluminous way to say that one shouldn't quit just because they can't seem to know how to improve.

>> No.15132938

>>15132862
>proves his point
>his point is that I am low IQ because of spelling
no it doesn't, retard. There is no correlation between spelling ability and intelligence.

>> No.15132953

>>15132708
>Him being considered one of the greats is a fact.
this is a perfect demonstration of why "show, don't tell" is important even in literature. You've TOLD me that he is one of the greats, you haven't SHOWN me that he is one of the greats. And your point is all the more weaker because of it.

>> No.15132962

>>15132768
i'm 100% sure he isn't doing that. He sounds like the type.

>> No.15132966

>>15132836
>between midnight and 4 a.m
When I switched to going to sleep before midnight and waking up in the morning, I found out I have way more energy and feel better. I know it's the quarantine, but try it out.

>> No.15132970

>>15132953
a lot of these rules can all be broken, it's usually the noobs that insist "show dont tell", sometimes some details are better omitted.

>> No.15132976

>>15132953
How do you know his name if he isn't atleast talked about? Even if you don't like him, you know him and most people do. That itself does not follow the rule.

>> No.15133004

>>15132970
>sometimes some details are better omitted.
that doesn't contradict the "show don't tell" rule, though. The ones who focus on the telling are also often the ones who are really bad at omitting unnecessary detail because they don't know how to condense that information into an aesthetic device. I agree these rules can and should be broken, my taste just tends towards those who's writing and characters need no explanation.

>>15132976
This is all irrelevant, you're still just appealing to authority, rather than giving me a concise critical evaluation.

>> No.15133018 [DELETED] 

>>15132002
under your definition, does the middle of the night count as the morning by chance?

>> No.15133036

>>15133004
Alright I'm not appealing to the authority anymore. He is not great, I concede.
That still doesn't change the fact that the guy did not follow the 'number of one advice' of writing rule but is talked about and considered one of the greatest by many.

>> No.15133038

>>15131570
>guy who made the image couldn't be bothered to crop out the '2000' date in the image under which he wrote '2015'

>> No.15133039

>>15132966
I see your point, but for me it's the tiredness that makes writing possible. Similar to how being drunk lowers inhibitions, being tired seems to make the words come freely and copiously.

>> No.15133053

>>15133036
>He is not great, I concede.
I didn't say you had to retract your opinion lmao, just defend it. But you're overthinking it, the OP prompt was "best advice you've ever received", not "best advice for a writer". The latter doesn't really exist because there are countless examples of good writers breaking many of the rules in this thread all the time. Just stick to your aesthetic principles, whatever they may be, and write in the way that best expresses what you want to say.

>> No.15133066

>>15133053
>I didn't say you had to retract your opinion lmao, just defend it
i did not defend it because why he is great personally to me is besides the point.

>> No.15133068

>>15132622
Sounds like someone is having a hard time putting pen to paper. Have you tried not being a two dollar faggot?

>> No.15133092

>>15131767
This is what Borris Johnson said to Murray and you stole it, wtf?

>> No.15133111

>>15132690
>t. hasn't read any of his shorter works

>> No.15133132

>>15133111
Which shorter Tolstoy do you recommend?

>> No.15133142

>>15133132
Confessions for a start

>> No.15133162

>>15131977
Agreed. It didn't work for me to learn how to draw so that's the reason I don't believe it works for writing either.

>> No.15133212 [DELETED] 

>develop weird fetishes through coomerism
>write about said fetishes in order to coom
>sell your smut to fellow coomers on amazon dot com

>> No.15133227

>develop weird fetishes through coomerism
>write about said fetishes in order to coom
>sell your smut to fellow coomers on amazon dot coom

>> No.15133248

>>15132002
I do my best writing with my morning cuppa.

>> No.15133267

>>15132016
I searched "writing" on b-ok and libgen and tried different shit.
I got like 8 great writing books that way.
Just find an author you like, google him to see what books he's written and b-ok that shit

>> No.15133504

>>15132522
best advice, everybody should stop writing
maybe then my stuff would finally get read

>> No.15133575

>>15133132
Start with his novellas. Pick up "Death of Ivan Illych and Other Stories"

>> No.15133691

>>15133132
Ivan Illych and The Devil

>> No.15133777
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15133777

>>15133142
>>15133575
>>15133691
>moralizing christcuck shit
>ironically, all coming from a heretic

>> No.15133797

>>15133777
I don't think it's christcuck but more contemplating the existance of a higher being when life is awful and about to end

The Devil is about letting women ruin your life

>> No.15135357

>>15131933
2-5k

>> No.15135397

>>15131526
when he wakes up he has a surprise lol

>> No.15135447

>>15131526
bugs... maybe you should have eaten a few more carrots,

>> No.15135585

>>15132328
I have literally won multiple writing competitions and have won multiple awards for my writing throughout university and am currently reading and writing at an extreme rate everyday for my history Phd and I have atrocious spelling

>> No.15135729

>>15132049
Isn’t all writing pretty much an inessential idea at this point?

>> No.15135738

>>15131541
How do you guys write everyday? Do you have a routine of a daily time? Do you just write in a journal something or maintain a blog? What topics will your write on? Pretty much anything since it’s just practice?

>> No.15135763

>>15135585

Big if true. History PhDs are among the wordiest, often clocking in at 4-600 pages, if not more.

>> No.15135766

I asked Delicious Tacos for advice.

"Just write. Wake up, read your favourite author while you shit and make your fingers move."

>> No.15136024

>>15135763
It is extremely wordy, I'm just a bad speller for whatever reason. I remember back in elementary school I was far ahead of my peers in reading level and the amount of books I would blast through but did the worst in class on spelling tests only ahead of the kid who sat on a rubber booster seat.

>> No.15136956

>>15131570
>first picture labeled 2000
>last picture labeled 2015
>dates in images show last pic was drawn a month before first pic
trisomic waste of air

>> No.15136999

>>15131617
That last bit is really good, I never thought of that. It makes sense though, I know that when I stop writing in the middle of a scene I have a much bigger drive to finish it the next day. If I finish it in that one session, odds are I won't write the next day. The former feels exciting while the latter can feel like a chore at times.

>> No.15137897

>>15132049
>If you end up with less than nothing, it was an inessential idea in the first place

terrible advice that collapses on itself if applied consistently. being able to be critical of your own work and willing to carve it up to improve it are essential abilities, but if you try to make those skills serve the ends of some vague efficiency or efficacy your writing will be soulless and bland because instead of developing a style and points of interest you're giving in to the social demand for art that's empty enough that as long as it's enjoyable you can't tell that it's bad

>> No.15138069

>>15135729
Nah, you just lack imagination

>> No.15138073

>>15136956
>>15133038
It's (c) 2000, not made in 2000

>> No.15138287

>>15136956
last picture is signed as being from 2000 as well, someone just put "2015" over it

>> No.15138317

>>15137897
The length of your second sentence only proves the point. Efficiency is key.

>> No.15138341

>>15136956
>>15138287
The last pic is signed by "Christine", not Christian, putting it in the 10s at least. I reckon the "Copyright 2000" on it references the year of the character's creation.

>> No.15138348

>>15138317
You're misinterpreting the whole thing. Do not remove words within sentences, remove paragraphs within the story. Go from A to B without taking a detour on all the other letters of the alphabet. Limit yourself as far as plot and what you explore goes, or you'll end up in a perpetual limbo.

>> No.15138415

>>15131570
>Sonichu
Literally a mentally ill tranny's scribbles.
Even if the dates werent a farce it still would mean nothing.

>> No.15138426

>>15138415
He writes (c) 2000 on everything.

>> No.15138456
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15138456

>>15131526

>bro, use adverbs to bring your prose to life, that's what all the pros do
>cut all the adverbs, you must write like Hemingway!
>show, don't tell, you need to leave things to imagination
>can you explain what happened, I didn't understand anything

I'm so done taking "writing advice" from anyone

>> No.15139755

>>15131704
try word
minimize limbs
if so
refrain sentence
the shit

>> No.15139929

>>15131526
well i don't write but there was this article on the oxford dictionary blog or something about a statistical study where they tested different 'how to improve your writing' methods. One was writing every day, one was reading every day, one was taking writing skills lessons or something. The test was a specific kind of essay so they could test it relatively objectively. And they found that out of all of them, the people who had just read every day ended up writing better essays than the people who did lessons or writing, by quite a margin

>> No.15139957

>>15135738
I just fill an A4 everyday, sometimes I give myself tasks like: don't start any sentence with certain words. or write in this tense. etc...
Other times I write down my thoughts or do some improv.

>> No.15139967

>>15139929
That makes sense

Though I suppose getting some pointers on how to read/write and then reading a lot would be even better

>> No.15140056

If you actually want to ever stand a chance at making money as a writer, write something people will actually want to read (basically genre fiction).

>> No.15140168

>>15131526
All the best short stories are the last chapter of a novel that was never written.

>> No.15140180

Best advice I ever got I picked up from reading and dissecting my favorite books, namely, that the default mode of telling stories is summary not scene. You render in scenes only those episodes which are absolutely necessary for the emotional effect of the story and only those which have an inherent conflict. The rest you summarize.

>> No.15140201

>>15138456
you don't know what "show don't tell" means

>> No.15140274

>>15132898
No different from saying 'he should have written like Nabokov.'

>> No.15140289

>>15140180
this is good advice and i have struggled a lot with this

>> No.15140309

>>15140201
You don't know what I'm talking about

>> No.15140471

>>15131570
He did get better though.
2015 actually has a semblance of perspective.

>> No.15140837

>>15138317
no, communication is key - this involves communication of sentiment, which often requires superfluous words

>> No.15141029

>>15132616
Tell would be something like: "John is a meanie"
Show would be something like: ''John kicked a dog and smiled"

However, you need to be careful with that advice. Sometimes, you may want the narrator to give psychological insight into a character, and in that case, telling is perfectly fine. Sometimes, you will also tell and then show (to make a stronger point or to contrast the two).

All in all, what matters is that whatever you do has a reason. What point are you trying to make? What's the most striking, beautiful, shortest way to get your point across?

>> No.15141550

Is repeating "said" in writing dialogue good? It looks kinda weird sometimes, but "spicing up" every proclamation with something different seems amateurish to me. It's like telling, instead of showing the emotional state through what is actually being said.

>> No.15141574

>>15141550

The general consensus these days is that you need a really good reason to use anything except "said".

Read a bit of The Belgariad and you see how ridiculous it sounds when a bad writer tries to get creative in this area.

>> No.15141688

>>15140837
>>15138348
Look, friends, I'm just sharing the best advice that was given to me. The OP never stated it had to apply to anyone else. I'm merely sharing the advice that helped me stop being such a hack and stuffing my sentences full of rhetorical fluff. We all have our own strategies, mine simply happens to benefit from a strictly reductive approach. Efficiency for me is not a lack of style, its the refinement of voice.

>> No.15141703

>>15141574
ive read a lot of dostoyevsky and tolstoy and the former especially use dialogue tags like 'exclaimed' and 'thundered' pretty regularly. using said for everything to my mind gives the story a lukewarm air. i don't see the problem if you are going for a dreamlike narrative which has the atmosphere of the theatrical where all emotions are amplified and exaggerated. or is that thought to be outdated these days?

>> No.15141740

>>15141550
For the most part, you can get away with almost nothing at all, as long as your dialogue is strong and you can indicate clearly who is speaking through tone of voice and personality. I will only add inflections or gestures where absolutely necessary.

>> No.15141813

>>15141703

If you already knew the answer why did you ask?

>> No.15142398

>>15141813
not the same poster

>> No.15142534

>>15141813
yeah sorry was an accidental quote lol

>> No.15143090

>>15132690
>nothing if not inefficient

>> No.15143178
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15143178

>>15131526
Just straight up copy the writing style, themes, whatever of your favourite author nigga.

>What did he open with?
>What his gimmick?
>What does he focus on?
>How does the story unfold?
>How do I emulate this
>etc etc
Literal straight up pretend you're him.

And of course, later diverge into your own style, or try to combine different writer's styles.

>> No.15143521

>>15141550
For the most part, try to keep things as simple and effective as possible. So "said" will generally be all you need, especially considering that very often whether your character gasped or exclaimed or asked or simply said will either be implied by what is said or irrelevant.