/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15101385]

Why did Jesus say "Lord, Lord why have you abandoned me?" Why would God abandon him? If he was God, how and why would he abandon himself?

[Anonymous No.15101411]

>>15101385
Do you ever masturbate to some crazy degenerate porn, cum on your hand and then ask yourself "Fuck, why I do this?"
Or waste a day browsing 4chan and forget to accomplish any of your goals?
Well, it's kind of like that

[Anonymous No.15101464]

>>15101385
I hope you're serious op. It's because he realised that sin leads to eternal separation when he and the Father had always been one. He had to become sin to pay for it.

[Anonymous No.15101477]

>>15101385
Ive been to that cathedral its pretty nice for a centralized church

[Anonymous No.15101479]

>>15101385
It was an expression of his human nature of fear.

[Anonymous No.15101485]

>>15101385
It was an expression of his human nature by expressing fear.

[Anonymous No.15101510]

>>15101385
Didn't Jesus know he was destined to die on the cross? So why did he start doubting God?

[Anonymous No.15101559]

>>15101464
>>15101485
Didn't he know that he would resurrect though? Did he go to hell for those three days between his death and resurrection?

[Anonymous No.15101597]

>>15101385
>>15101510

1. So when Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” He was quoting the first verse of Psalm 22 and fulfilling a Messianic Prophecy, and his followers would recognize this immediately.

2. Jesus was deity in human form. Therefore, you could say that in His humanity, Jesus experienced an emotional separation from His Heavenly Father. You know, it’s impossible for us to know exactly how “human” Jesus felt throughout the arrest, trials, and crucifixion. But we do know that in the garden of Gethsemane, He prayed to God the Father, “Please, Father—let this cup pass from Me.”

[Anonymous No.15101615]

>>15101385
>>15101385
He was quoting Psalm 22

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.
For the kingdom is the Lord’s,
And He rules over the nations.
All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.

[Anonymous No.15101628]

>>15101385
I believe it was the human part of Him that was saying that. Even as the Son of God, He still cries out, wondering why He must suffer, as we all do at times.

>>15101464 has got the idea. Because Jesus had taken all of mankind's sin, God had to momentarily leave Jesus' body until the sin could be purged through His death.

[Anonymous No.15101629]

>>15101628
>God had to momentarily leave Jesus' body until the sin could be purged through His death.
that's absolutely heretical

[Anonymous No.15101643]

Simple: the Trinity is a false interpretation of the bible. Jesus himself admitted that he wasn't omniscient and therefore wasn't God.

[Anonymous No.15101646]

>>15101629
It's not a very good explanation, I'm bad with words. The last two guys above got it right though

[Anonymous No.15101680]

>>15101615
This anon is the most right. The psalms were some of the most recognized writings among the Israelites, familiar to both the uneducated and the scholars. It would be like quoting a Beatles song in the 60's. By saying the first lines, Christ signifies the entire psalm, which also corresponds to a prophesy in Wisdom about how the wicked will treat the messiah when he comes. Further, Christ has a human and a divine nature. While the divine nature cannot feel pain or die, the human nature could feel amd experience what all men feel and experience, except to the perfect degree. Also, as the Son, though he is a coequal divine person, the Son receives from the Father by generation. So, in a mystical sense, for the Son to suffer a human death, it as though the Father has witheld the divinity from the Son for accomplishment of the passion (recognizing of course that no person of the trinity ever acts without the other persons of the trinity.) Lastly, Venerable Mary of Agred writes that the greatest cause for Christ's suffering was actual his sense of loss for all the souls for whom he died who, by their choice, will not receive the fruit of his salvation; this expression then is the lamentation of the Son as man to the Father in recognition of the Father's granting of free will to men that lets men reject the grace the Son has won for them.

[Anonymous No.15101687]

>>15101385
He's not God. Although I still don't know why he would ask this, as if God didn't tell him what was going to happen in heaven. Maybe he forgot all about that though.

[Anonymous No.15101700]

>>15101615

Best Psalm there is

[Anonymous No.15101709]

>>15101643
John 8:58.

[Anonymous No.15101729]

Think of it in terms of a father disowning his son. The son is still the son in a genetic sense, but no longer the son in the economic or legal sense. This is the best way to interpret this aspect of the crucifixion.

[Anonymous No.15101736]

>>15101700
Agreed. It is absolutely amazing.

[Anonymous No.15101743]

>>15101709
This is not in fact a refutation of what I said.

[Anonymous No.15101751]

>>15101743
It is nevertheless an example of Jesus making a direct claim to God-level eternality.

[Anonymous No.15101764]

>>15101743
Yes it is. By stating "I am," Jesus states that He is of one substance with the Father. "I am" is a title reserved only for God Himself in Judaism, in reference to when God told Moses "I am that I am."

[Anonymous No.15101771]

>>15101743
How's this for a refutation faggot

[Anonymous No.15101772]

>>15101764
>"I am" is a title reserved only for God Himself in Judaism, in
I'm gonna go look for examples of OT Jews saying "I am"
>>15101751

[Anonymous No.15101778]

>>15101772
You're fucking braindead

[Anonymous No.15101781]

>>15101772
I hope you know the difference between "I AM" in the Exodus 3:14 sense and "I am" in the common use of language sense.

[Anonymous No.15101786]

>>15101781
You capitalized one of them, which wasn't present in the original text

[Anonymous No.15101793]

>>15101781
Of course I know the difference, but you're assuming that John 8:58 falls into the former category rather than the later, or some third Arian category.

[Anonymous No.15101797]

>>15101786

[Anonymous No.15101800]

>>15101771
>>15101778
>>15101797
How Christianity spread so effectively is a mystery to me

[Anonymous No.15101802]

>>15101385
Maybe it's because spooky shit is only meant to control the Individual rather than make sense?
>Do this or you are disappointing sky daddy, who will shun you and allow you to burn for all eternity for not sucking his massive EGO.
>Don't listen to You, the Unique, listen to Sky Daddy.

[Anonymous No.15101809]

>>15101643
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[Anonymous No.15101832]

>>15101793
If Christ isn't calling himself God, why does Caiphas tear his garment and accuse Christ of blasphemy? If Christ does call himself God, but is not God, then Caiaphas is right, and the death of Christ would be justified. Only God is the author of life. Only God is the Truth. Jesus calls himself the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus cannot be believed in unless he is truly God.

[Anonymous No.15101834]

>>15101809
>>15101743

[Anonymous No.15101836]

>>15101793
You can look at it both ways. In one sense He's claiming absolute eternality, which strongly implies omnipresence. In another sense, by connecting Himself to the Father's title of I AM, Jesus is essentially making the same claim as in John 10:30.

[Anonymous No.15101843]

>>15101836
Or he is claiming to have merely existed before Abraham, ie Arianism

[Anonymous No.15101851]

>>15101832
Caiaphas was wrong. Jesus wasn't claiming to be God.

[Anonymous No.15101852]

>>15101843
If that were the case, He would have said "Before Abraham was, I was." He instead says "I am" which means that time itself is below Him.

[Anonymous No.15101866]

>>15101852
Maybe but you have to square that with John 14:28

[Anonymous No.15101882]

>>15101866
Submission is a virtue of the Son. Jesus submits to the will of the Father because that is His place in the economy of the Trinity. This doesn't compromise Jesus' actual divinity at all.

[Anonymous No.15101902]

>>15101597
>He was quoting the first verse of Psalm 22
based and knowledge pilled
>fulfilling a Messianic Prophecy
cringe and subverted pilled

[Anonymous No.15101920]

>>15101882
What about lacking omniscience? Does that contradict it?>>15101882

[Anonymous No.15101923]

>>15101902
>based
>but cringe
huh? What's your religion or issue with that explanation?

[Anonymous No.15101936]

>>15101920
in his humanity he had limitations, he was hungry, he slept, he wept, died [for 3 days], had limits on his knowledge, as Paul said "You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,
"......
but his divine nature is always one with the Father and co-equal.

[Anonymous No.15101938]

>>15101920
Jesus never claimed to lack omniscience. If you (or that person who made that original comment) are referring to Mark 13:32, this can be easily understood in light of what we're already discussing. The Son, in submission to the will of the Father, is limited in a particular way. We know that self-imposed limitation is a very common practice of God, and this is just one example of that.

[Anonymous No.15101949]

>>15101936
So he both had omniscience and lacked it?

[Anonymous No.15101955]

>>15101949
It isn't about what attributes He has, but about which attributes He chooses to exercise.

[Anonymous No.15101956]

>>15101938
Right I'll totally pretend that's logical and just ask why isn't the Holy Spirit omniscient

[Anonymous No.15101973]

>>15101955
So he made himself forget stuff?

[Anonymous No.15101974]

>>15101956
What aspect of what I said do you disagree with? There are more examples of God's self-imposed limitation than I can count. See 2 Peter 3:9.

[Anonymous No.15101990]

>>15101973
I would say that He chose (or chooses) to ignore some information. It's the same sort of submission we see in Luke 22:42.

[Anonymous No.15102014]

>>15101974
God should not be able to alter His own nature, then He would cease to be God

[Anonymous No.15102023]

>>15102014
He isn't altering His nature, He's exercising His ability.

[Anonymous No.15102035]

>>15102023
Simple question: does Jesus know the timing of the end of the world?

[Anonymous No.15102043]

>>15102035
Does closing your eyes make you less human?

[Anonymous No.15102049]

>>15102035
It is written that He does not, but the Father does.

[Anonymous No.15102061]

>>15102043
No

[Anonymous No.15102066]

>>15102049
Right so he's not omniscient, one of the characteristics of divinity

[Anonymous No.15102067]

>>15102061
In the same way, God choosing where, when, and how to exercise His ability has no impact or implication on His divine nature.

[Anonymous No.15102084]

>>15101385
It is paramount to Jesus' eschatological worldview

[Anonymous No.15102105]

>>15102067
>I the Lord do not change-God
>He totally changes all the time-Trinitarian

[Anonymous No.15102169]

>>15102105
Please review >>15102043. This is not complex stuff.

[Anonymous No.15103409]

>>15101851
You should read more Old Testament. He continually identifies himself as attributes of God which are established by the patriarchs and prophets. He uses the present tense to say before Abtaham was, "I am." He says if you heard the words of Moses, you would hear Christ. He says the manna was insufficient, because it was earthly, but if you eat his flesh you will live because he is Life. It is established only God can pass ultimate judgement, and when Caiphas asks if he's the Son of God, Jesus says he will come again on the last day to judge as the right hand of God. He calls himself the Lord of the Sabbath. He calls himself the Light, and the Day. He tells the samaritans that he is the Well of God, the Water in the Desert. He compares his presence to the Pillar of Fire. He says he and the father are one and says to know Jesus is to know the Father. Jesus could not be more explicit that he is God made Man.

[Anonymous No.15103780]

>>15102169
Knowledge is not an "ability". Stop reading evangelical """theology"""

[Anonymous No.15103826]

>>15103409
>He uses the present tense to say before Abtaham was, "I am."
John's Gospel is a fabrication.
He says if you heard the words of Moses, you would hear Christ.
Yes, and?
He says the manna was insufficient, because it was earthly, but if you eat his flesh you will live because he is Life.
Yes, and?
It is established only God can pass ultimate judgement,
God delegates that authority to him. He doesn't have it inherently. Read the bible.
and when Caiphas asks if he's the Son of God, Jesus says he will come again on the last day to judge as the right hand of God.
See above.
He calls himself the Lord of the Sabbath.
See above
He calls himself the Light, and the Day.
Light is part of the creation.
He tells the samaritans that he is the Well of God, the Water in the Desert.
Why not just eliminate the well part dipshit?
He compares his presence to the Pillar of Fire.
No he doesn't.
He says he and the father are one and
He also prays that his disciples will be one with the father. Is he praying that they become God?
says to know Jesus is to know the Father.
Because he is the father's earthly representative.
Jesus could not be more explicit that he is God made Man.
Are you genuinely retarded?

[Anonymous No.15103831]

>>15102067
Can you choose to forget information? Then remember it again?

[Anonymous No.15103925]

>>15101464
>eternal separation when he and the Father
>He had to become sin to pay for it.
Holy cringe... This is blasphemy, you realize that, right?

[Anonymous No.15103953]

>>15101385
Christ's nature is both wholly divine and wholly human in perfect unison. It was the human will, not the God soul, calling out.

Alternative explanation: it wasn't simply Christ saying this; it was us hearing Him say it. If even God the Son can call out in such a manner, we should not ourselves feel ashamed for doing the same in times of anguish. Christ is teaching us even at the moment of His temporary death.

[Anonymous No.15103959]

>>15103953
>It was the human will, not the God soul, calling out.
'Will' isn't an independent agent who can act and call out...

[Anonymous No.15103993]

>>15103959
Do you not know what will means? The will of one's flesh and one's soul are not the same thing - any more than you are the clothes you wear.

[Anonymous No.15103998]

>>15101559
bump

[Anonymous No.15104093]

>>15101700
Many would disagree, although David is the greatest Psalmist to be sure.

[Anonymous No.15104126]

[Anonymous No.15104214]

Read the whole Psalm.
Then consider being beyond time.
Then consider all prophets being types of Christs and Christ their Archetype.
Christ's humanity is all humanity.
The Passions breaks time linearity, there's only voice that spoke those words—David experienced that moment the Passion, David was speaking through Christ. And Christ then comforts David through the resurrection, as observed at the end of the Psalm.

[Anonymous No.15104248]

>>15103826
>is he praying that they become God?
In a limited sense, yes. Christ even says so in other places. This truth is even contained in the lie Satan tells Adam. By prayer, by the practice of the virtues, by the beatitudes, by the new law of grace, by the sacraments as channels of grace, and principally by eating the Divine Substance of the Eucharist, we are sanctified--our passible nature becomes impassible, our corruptable nature is purified, and we are transformed from slaves of God to the children of God. One's sanctity and holiness is the extent to which one is unified with God. I say again--read the Old Testament. All of the things Christ identifies with himself are exclusive attributes and images of God, explained by all the prophets. For example, only God is Lord of the Sabbath. If anyone else said this, it would be sacrilege. The divine light is uncreated, and only God is uncreated; if Jesus calls himself the light in this context, he is calling himself God. Why do you think John is a fabrication? If you distrust the canon of scripture, how do you trust that anything is scripture?

[Anonymous No.15104307]

>>15104214
fug
>*The Passions breaks time linearity, there's only one voice that spoke those words—David experienced that moment of the Passion, it was David who was speaking through Christ. And Christ then comforts David's vision through the resurrection, as observed at the end of the Psalm.
This is divine Empathy, an aspect of Eros, whom Christ is; this doesn't remove David's plight an and despair, it affirms it by having God suffer with every man. Likewise the Passion isn't just that event, Christ is bearing the pain of all reality.

[Anonymous No.15104350]

>>15104214
>>15104307
David does not speak through Christ. God speaks through David. The passion does not break time--it is the center of creation. The tree of life in the Garden of Eden is the image of Christ on Cross, which is the true and eternal tree of life.

[Anonymous No.15104370]

>>15104350
>The tree of life in the Garden of Eden is the image of Christ on Cross
Wait a minute so it isn't a literal tree? What was the fruit that Adam and Eve ate then?

[Anonymous No.15104405]

>>15104370
Physical reality is lower in the order of creation than spiritual reality. The love God the Father has for the Son is not like a Father to a Son, but rather the love of a father to a son is like the love of the persons of the trinity. The physical tree in the garden is an image of Christ. God is the Author of Life, and Christ is the Word of God. All of physical reality and the entirety of our lives can be understood as a divine drama--the story of salvation. God himself, as the creator, is the center--the origin. Everything else is an image and type of the fundamental relationship of love God has for all he has made, and which creation gives back to God for his glory.

[Anonymous No.15104423]

>>15104405
Why were Adam and Eve not supposed to eat the fruit from that tree? Also where was the Garden of Eden?
And do you think God made other humans the same way he made Adam, or are all humans direct descendants of Adam and Eve?

[Anonymous No.15104429]

>>15101385
He was the human "form" of God. And this showed that despair and absolute feeling of abandonment was human. The important part to take from this was that he still felt that this was a part of God's plan and still gave his spirit to God despite dying and feeling abandoned.

[Anonymous No.15104451]

>>15104423
Adam and Eve were given to eat the fruit of the tree of life, which was in the center. They were told not to eat the tree from the knowledge of good and evil. I do not fully know the reasoning or the meaning of this, but it is partially a proving of Adam and Eve. I believe Adam and Eve are the parents of all people, and the Catholic Church holds this to almost be a de fide dogma. I do not know where the Garden was exactly, and it hardly matters. The garden itself is only an image of heaven and the beatific vision.

[Anonymous No.15104461]

>>15104451
Do you think that the first language was Sanskrit

[Anonymous No.15104502]

>>15104461
No. The first language is lost, and it wouldn't mean much to find it again.

[Anonymous No.15104519]

>>15104502
My dad says that the first language was Hebrew. Could he be right or is that just Jew-centric boomerism

[Anonymous No.15104784]

>>15104519
Would seem unlikely, given that Christ spoke Aramaic. God doesn't seem to have a particular concern for the first language. If he desired it, all people could understand all languages as a single language. There are likely certain components of Hebrew as a language which makes it most excellently suited for the writing of the Old Testament, but the New Testament has not relied on it, instead adopting the languages of the nations. God himself is beyond language, and spirits communicate in a way unrecognizable to us, to some extent by divine intuition .

[Anonymous No.15104788]

>>15104350
>David does not speak through Christ. God speaks through David.
These two statements are one and the same. It isn't mere recitation, Christ lives the words of David.

[Anonymous No.15104800]

>/lit/ - Priest with nothing do the whole fucking day but posting on the internet

[Anonymous No.15104853]

>>15104788
They are not the same. Christ and his redeeming sacrifice spiritually precede David. David's psalms are a description of Christs' life and death. As experienced by men, Christ fulfilled the vision of David, but as spiritual reality David only has the vision because of the underlying reality of Christ. Things exist and are regardless of whether they are seen. Christ does not live the words of David; David gives words to the life of Christ.

[Anonymous No.15104863]

>>15104853
This some Twin Peaks shit.

[Anonymous No.15104943]

>>15104863
Twin Peaks is a great show but why do you talk like this?

[Anonymous No.15105006]

>>15104863
Spiritual reality is objective reality. Just as the physical world offers recognizeable landmarks, so too there is a spiritual landscape, shaped by universal principles of spiritual behavior. But, the waters and the rocks are indifferent to man; in spiritual life, there are many predators and there is little distinction between communication and location.

[Anonymous No.15105008]

>>15104853
This. Everything makes sense when you realise that history operates Christocentrically. This is why st. John calls Christ the Lamb slaughtered from the foundation of the world. Everything is foreshadowing or echoing the life and death of Christ

[Anonymous No.15105072]

>>15105008
Not only history, but existence itself.

[Anonymous No.15105117]

>>15105072
Exactly

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,evenhis eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[Anonymous No.15105400]

Hey anons I have another question about Christianity. I will ask it here.
My mom says that Christians are supposed to support Israel because there is a passage in the Bible that says God will bless those who bless them and curse those who curse them. Is she right? Are we really meant to support Israel? If not, what does that passage actually mean?

[Anonymous No.15105457]

>>15105400
Everything of the Old Testament is a prefiguration and a mystical image. The Catholic Church is the new Israel. The mystical Israel is the communion of all saints at the end of time. Why would God bless those who deny him, except to lead them to belief? It's hard to say whether we should support the modern-day nation-state of Israel, which has literally no connection to the Israel of the Old Testament. Some Orthodox Jewish communities have maintained the genealogies of the line of priests, but it's my understanding that the Davidic line has been lost. Further, the sacrifices stopped around the time of the destruction of the Second Temple. It matters less who lives where, or who has power, and it matters more whether they believe in Christ and the Church.

[Anonymous No.15105471]

>>15105457
So why do boomers love the nation state of Israel so much

[Anonymous No.15105504]

>>15105471
Depends on the boomer.

[Anonymous No.15105536]

>>15105400
>If not, what does that passage actually mean?

We do not have to support a Zionist state at all. St Paul explains that verse by saying that the seed of Abraham to whom all these promises were made was not the race which descended from him but rather a single individual who descended from him, the God-Man Jesus Christ. Therefore, those that bless Jesus will be blessed by Him and those who curse Jesus will be cursed by Him. Ironically the Zionist state and Jewish religion which are both built from starting point of hatred for God and decide are the ones who are truly cursed.

If you mother thinks that Abrahams descendants refers to the Jewish people, then why does God promise to make Abraham the father of many nations. The words nations is very clearly referring to different ethnic groups or tribes so it is totally senseless to say that the promises made to the descendants of a father of many nations would only apply to one of those nations, specifically the one whose identity is rejecting their own savior.

[Anonymous No.15105650]

>>15104853
That's literally what I said, David knew his suffering prefigured the Passion, he foresaw the Passion in himself, thus his anguish in the words "Lord, Lord why have you abandoned me?" are sincere since he was only human; thus when Christ says them, he being fully human and god entirely understands the sentiment of every soul that has cried out for God. Christ fully experiences the existential dread brought by the ignorance of god due to his humanity; just as he cried tears of blood in the garden. FULLY HUMAN.

[Anonymous No.15105755]

>>15105536
>to make Abraham the father of many nations.
What are these nations?

[Anonymous No.15105772]

>>15105755
Jew nations

[Anonymous No.15105775]

>>15105755
The Christians of all races

[Anonymous No.15105815]

>>15105650
No, we are saying distinctly different things. You seem to be trying to explain how it can be that what Christ says is true without being calumny. But it is not calumny, for in order for Christ to experience the passion to the fullness of our redemption, he needed to literally be allowed to suffer it by God, suppressing in a sense his Divine nature which would have made such a suffering impossible. The mere presence of God is life-giving and relieves suffering. The phrase is not an accusation against God is not drawn from the similar accusations made against God. Rather, it is the same experience that Mary has when she finds Jesus in the temple and says "Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing." In order to suffer and die, the Humanity of Christ is literally left forsaken by the Divinity of Christ. Christ does not do this simply to feel what we feel; he has no need of this, for God made us and understands our feelings and experience better than we ever will. God does this as a mercy and justice for us, and to his glory. This willingness of God to sacrifice himself even for those who will reject him is as close to the essence of the Divine Being as the human mind can consider, and this action is literally the center of existence. Jesus does not experience the sum of all other similar experiences; all other similar experiences are a shadow of this divine experience. David echoes the Lord's Passion. And if we in our own sufferings do as Christ does, perpetually seeking God, we too will echo Christ with our lives. We are the secondary thing, and God is the essential thing.

[Anonymous No.15105824]

>>15105755
Genealogically, the Jews and the Arabs. Spiritually, all believers.

[Anonymous No.15106637]

Is it significant that a woman was the first one to sin and not a man?

[Anonymous No.15106654]

>>15106637
All things are significant. Nothing is beneath or beyond the consideration of God.

[Anonymous No.15106657]

>>15106637
What would have happened if Eve had sinned but Adam refused? Would only women be cursed then?

[Anonymous No.15106669]

>>15106654
But is that meant to tell us something about the nature of men and women?

[Anonymous No.15106721]

>>15106669
It probably does, but not in a way we would understand. My guess is that you mean the nature of men and women in a psychological sense, and not in a mystical sense. The psychological view of it would almost certainly be wrong.

[Anonymous No.15106730]

>>15106721
>My guess is that you mean the nature of men and women in a psychological sense, and not in a mystical sense.
I meant both.
And isn't the psychological sense a reflection of the mystical sense?

[Anonymous No.15106733]

>>15101411
jesus was a procrastinating coomer? i'm a christian now

[Anonymous No.15106791]

>>15106730
It should be. But as an academic discipline, psychology has been almost entirely godless, ignoring spirits, grace, and the soul. It is built on false foundations, and so even those observations which appear useful are fundamentally broken.

[Anonymous No.15106887]

>>15105471
misinterpretation of the Bible

[Anonymous No.15106974]

What do you think of these sorts of "Christians" like Jordan Peterson who like the philosophy and morality of the story of Jesus and so on but they don't actually believe in God in a literal sense? I think that it is heresy. It is a small minded way of looking at the Bible and a failure to see how the mystical and metaphorical are reflections of each other. It devalues the Bible to the level of some vapid self-help book. That is the way I see it at least but I would be interested in reading your thoughts on this.

[Anonymous No.15107148]

>>15106974
As I understand, he doesn't actually consider himself a Christian, and so it would not seem quite accurate to consider him a heretic. It's true, he would seem to put forward false understandings of the teachings of Christ and the dogmas of the faith, but he does this from a position of not really believing in these things in the first place. If he's baptized, he's essentially apostatized. That said, anyone who accepts his incorrect teachings on the Bible contrary to dogma has adopted heresy. Still, as a matter of the will, it is hard to know the ripeness of the heresy. It would seem worse, in general, for someone to openly call themselves Christian and promote error than to profess error while denying that they are Christian. As much as I dislike this trend of so-called Christian self-help literature, protestant denominations are still worse.

[Anonymous No.15107174]

>>15107148
>In a 2017 interview, Peterson was asked if he was a Christian; he responded, "I suppose the most straight-forward answer to that is yes".[136] When asked if he believes in God, Peterson responded: "I think the proper response to that is No, but I'm afraid He might exist".[22]

[Anonymous No.15107262]

>>15107174
Do you see what I mean, though?
>Are you a Christian?
>>Yes
>Do you believe in God?
>>No
What he says is less frightening than the fact that so many people can't see the obvious contradiction of these statements. His lectures on introductory personality psychology are pretty good for understanding psychology as it stands. His maps of meaning lectures offer very interesting additions to Jungian analysis, which can give some good insight to spiritual understanding, so long as one remembers that Peterson has essentially left himself wide open to subtle diabolic influence. The way he reads films is quite compelling, and is actually pretty useful for introducing people to deeper cultural insight. But how can any Christian hear a man say he doesn't believe in God and think he still can offer any useful exegesis? Peterson himself is not the danger, but rather the Big Tent modernist Self-Help ChristianityTM that accepts this without question.

[Anonymous No.15107420]

>>15105815
learn to read, you're talking to a strawman of somebody else

[Anonymous No.15107452]

>>15105815
literally docetism

[Anonymous No.15107472]

>>15106637
men are responsible for women's actions

[Anonymous No.15107504]

>>15107472
>it's the man's fault
piss off roastie

[Anonymous No.15107573]

>>15107452
I don't you understand what I'm saying. It is absolutely essential that God took on human flesh and that Christ is fully human and fully divine without intermingling. But on the Cross, Christ witheld his divine self from his human self without seperation so that the human self could truly take on the fullness of man's sin. God does not do this for his need, but for our salvation.

[Anonymous No.15107585]

>>15107504
this is literally the case you illiterate, Eve is Adam's wife; that's why it's ADAM'S sin, not the sin of Adam and Eve.
The state of the modern world is likewise all men's fault, for women need correction and are like children.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
>12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
>For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

[Anonymous No.15107602]

>>15107573
>his divine self from his human self

[Anonymous No.15107670]

>>15107585
Are you saying that women cannot sin?

[Anonymous No.15107701]

>>15107573
and to say that god is without need is to say he is without love; for love is a longing

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26
>And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Sons and Heirs Through Christ

4 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, [b]“Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir [c]of God [d]through Christ.

[Anonymous No.15107727]

>>15107670
They can, but the harm of their sin to themeeslves is secondary to the harm it does to their father/husband/brother. Since the Man sins in letting the woman sin.

[Anonymous No.15107735]

>>15101385
catholic take on Jesus and his godlines is just a contradiction to the Bible, it is even stated, that Jesus would denounce all who would call him a God in the afterlife after being met with him and pleading for salvation

[Anonymous No.15107736]

>>15107727
So Adam was supposed to keep an eye on Eve at all times so that she couldn't go to the tree on her own and eat the fruit?

[Anonymous No.15107749]

>>15107735
Where does it say that?

[Anonymous No.15107766]

>>15107735
the lake of fire/gehenna is purification of evil, it is destruction is you are pure evil (you will become like a child, reborn after a second death)

“As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt,
I will show [h]them wonders.”

16
The nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might;
They shall put their hand over their mouth;
Their ears shall be deaf.
17
They shall lick the dust like a serpent;
They shall crawl from their holes like snakes of the earth.
They shall be afraid of the Lord our God,
And shall fear because of You.
18
Who is a God like You,
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in mercy.
19
He will again have compassion on us,
And will subdue our iniquities.

You will cast all our sins
Into the depths of the sea.

[Anonymous No.15107778]

>>15107736
he simply shouldn't have eaten the fucking fruit and god would have forgiven Eve, then and there

[Anonymous No.15107805]

>>15107766
beautiful

[Anonymous No.15107893]

What do you think Adam and Eve looked like? What modern ethnicity most closely resembles them?
Also do you anons believe in evolution?

[Anonymous No.15108229]

>>15107701
>love is longing
that is error. Love is an outpouring of self. It is self-sacrifice. It is desiring what is best for another regardless of the cost to yourself. As Christ himself says: there is no greater love than that a man lays down his life for his friends. Elsewhere, he also explains that it means little to give to those who care for you, and it is much to give to those who hate you, reiterating that friendship is not in what is received but in what is given. Love is active and not passive. To say that God needs anything is to deny that he is God. That he needs nothing and yet still gives us everything demonstrates the perfection of his love which is his very nature. God sacrifices himself for his creation, knowing that most of those he loves will reject him.

[Anonymous No.15108242]

>>15107602
Do you deny that Christ has two natures, a Divine nature and a Human nature, in hypostatic union, as one person?

[Anonymous No.15108295]

>>15108242
One person is one self. There is no human and divine person in Christ, only a divine person which has assumed human nature in addition to his eternal divine nature. Talking about Jesus having two selves sounds nestorian.

[Anonymous No.15108341]

>>15107893
The story of Adam and Eve is about how humans developed consciousness (tree of knowledge) and thus through the ability of self-reflection gained the capacity to sin. Animals just act on instinct, they don’t have a concept of right or wrong so God loves and accepts irregardless of their actions which is why they remain in the garden of Eden.

Evolution supports the idea of a first man and women. I doubt they were called Adam and Eve or even had names but this is an irrelevance. Consciousness is also tricky as it’s likely not a biological evolution even though biology enables it so it may not have been just 2 people or such as stark jump but this is irreverent to message the story is trying to convey.

[Anonymous No.15108371]

>>15101464
That's absolutely wrong.
Jesus gave his life for sin, but he never "became" sin nor did he ever sin.
>>15101385
Because Jesus was both 100% man and 100% God. In that moment of absolute pain, Jesus the human called out to God the Father and asked why he has abandoned him, which is the natural response of all humans when we suffer immensely and without reason.

[Anonymous No.15108408]

>>15101559
>>15101510
Whilst it’s possible to get outside of time, it is experienced in a linear fashion and I doubt your could convince it with the human brain that God was operating through in Christ.

Also whilst Christ was a historic figure, he is also a symbol for the Self and guides up on how we can evolve spiritually. Everything fades back into the source, God, so on some level we are all sons of God.

[Anonymous No.15108601]

Virgin men are superior to men who have had sex. Jesus never married or had sex, and his life was an example for how men are supposed to live. Virgin men are pure. Sexfags on the other hand have given their energy, their very life force, to some putrid whore. They will always be inferior.
And no I don't fap either.

[Anonymous No.15109334]

>>15108601
this desu

[Anonymous No.15110056]

>>15108408
>symbol for the Self
4chan believes in No-Self.

[Anonymous No.15110188]

>>15108295
I'll acknowledge I could use clearer language, and the confusion is therefore to my fault, but I don't think it is reasonable for you to draw these conclusions from what I said. First, Jesus has two natures and one person. But by the hypostatic union, it cannot be said that his humanity is one part and his divinity another, as though each is added to the other to create a whole. He is not half man and half God, but wholly man and wholly God. However, as these natures are distinct and not mixed, we may refer seperately to his humanity and his divinity. Further there are some thinhs which pertain directly to Christ in his humanity, and only indirectly to Christ in his divinity by the hypostatic union. Conversely, there are things which pertain directly to Christ in his divinity which only indirectly relate to Christ in his humanity by the hypostatic union. Out of convenience, I used the language his divine self and his human self. To my knowledge, this would not be strictly innacurate, though I understand why you might see a heretical reading in it. My point in this was only that though Psalm 22 would have been the primary meaning of Christ's words, there is also a substantial meaning in which Christ in his Humanity was truly forsaken by God--that is left unaided. Christ made no use of his divine attributes or privelages and the father permitted the height of sacrilege to his Son and prevented his angels from intervening as would have otherwise been their sacred duty. In the passion, the humanity of Christ was left unaided. That Christ is wholly divine renders heightens the mercy and sacrifice of this act beyond any human comprehension. That God became man is never more perfectly realized and demonstrated than in his life freely given on the cross.

[Anonymous No.15110205]

>>15108601
Don't post my cat picture, I post that cat picture

[Anonymous No.15110260]

>>15110188
>Christ in his Humanity was truly forsaken by God
>The Logos (the only subject/self in Christ) was forsaken by the Father
Cringe.

[Anonymous No.15110309]

>>15101709
Jesus’s divine nature existed before Abraham or anyone did. Not his bodily human nature. In this sense, everyone’s divine nature existed before Abraham did. True Christianity is about a paradoxically democratic-monarchical divinity.

[Anonymous No.15110352]

>>15101802
Reddit needs to leave this place forever