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15087758 No.15087758 [Reply] [Original]

This is a thread for discussing the writings and ideas of a gifted polymath who arose like the dawning sun to retroactively refute nearly all of western thought and elucidate the fundamental problems of our times, and also the works of adjacent thinkers. Like a lighthouse beacon, René Guénon's writings shine as a veritable fountain of truth and wisdom in these dark times.

All of Guénon's books free here

https://archive.org/details/reneguenon

article of the day: The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: Sufi Perspectives on the Universalitycof the Quranic Message

http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=Metaphysics%20of%20Interfaith%20Dialogue-Paths-chapter%207.pdf

text of the day: Paramarthasara of Abhinavagupta

https://archive.org/details/EssenceOfTheExactRealityOrParamarthasaraOfAbhinavaguptaB.N.Pandit/mode/2up

>> No.15087773

“adjacent thinkers” boys you know what to do, post Buddhism itt

>> No.15087779

>retroactively refute nearly all of western thought and elucidate the fundamental problems of our times
you mean Hegel?

>> No.15087784
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15087784

Threadly reminder that
1- Almost all scholars and almost all actual Hindus agree that Shankara's non-dualism (called advaita) is "crypto-buddhism," meaning it's a ripoff of Mahayana Buddhism. Not just the philosophy of Mahayana either, but the institutions and culture as well. Pic related.

2- No matter how much guenonfag (pizza be upon him) denies this, or claims he is not buttmad about it, he is very buttmad about it. All advaitins are. If you want to make an advaitin buttmad, remind everyone of his crypto-buddhism. They hate it.

3- Not only was advaita just ripoff buddhism, its modern forms were heavily westernized and revived by the most embarrassing form of western occultism (Blavatsky's Theosophy), which guenonfag (pizza be upon him) also hates and is buttmad about:

4- Guenon's principal follower, Frithjof Schuon, started a cringey sex cult where he fucked his cult members' wives and fondled their prepubescent daughters, usually in front of other children. The current unofficial head of the perennialist movement, Nasr, has never repudiated Schuon (who was his teacher), and continues to praise him. Perennialists hate being reminded of this as well. Guenonfag used to post lots of Schuon and Nasr until people began talking about this, and now he claims to dislike Schuon.

If you dislike the Guenon spam, spread the word that advaita is crypto-buddhism. Guenonfag gets ridiculously mad every time he sees it.

>> No.15087787

>>15087758
Has he elucidated why my pizza never arrives on time?

>> No.15087861

>>15087758
Books on Christianity and Hinduism? Anything really?

>> No.15087870
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>>15087773
Buddhism is part of the perennial metaphysical truth too, we are all welcome under the big tent brother. With their ideas of Tathagatagarbha, Buddha-nature, Mahavairocana and similar concepts as being the true nature of the mind as"suchness-awareness" or as existing virtually inside everyone already and similar teachings, the Mahayana and Tantrist Buddhists managed to realize the transcendental Self that the Buddha pointed to via apophatism, and in doing so restored the true essence of Buddhism which is a continuation of the Upanishadic teachings. Some people having been trapped into egoistic delusions may be upset at hearing this, but I offer them my boundless Buddha-compassion.

>> No.15087903

>>15087870
Is this why Shankara copied his entire philosophy from the Mahayanists? Wow. Didn't know Buddhism had such a huge impact on Hinduism.

>> No.15087906
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>>15087861
Christianity and the Doctrine of Non-Dualism - A Monk of the West
Experiencing God Directly: the Way of Christian Non-Duality - Marshall Davis
Christ in India - Bede Griffiths
Vedanta and Christian Faith - Bede Griffiths
History of Non-Dual Meditational Methods - Javier Planas

https://www2.uned.es/dpto-hdi/History%20of%20Non-dual%20Meditation%20Methods.pdf

>> No.15087919
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>>15087758
Take the UG pill

>> No.15087939

>>15087903
All the elements that some people believe the great sage Shankaracharya took from Buddhism can actually be traced to the earliest Upanishads predating Buddhism my friend. The influence may have gone the other way, in his "History of Early Vedanta Philosophy" the Japanese Buddhist scholar Hajime Nakamura writes that the early Yogachara texts like the Lankavatara Sutra display a Vedantic influence. In the end though, obsessing over originality is a distraction from one's spiritual path and the important spiritual truths taught by the various schools.

>> No.15087961
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>>15087758
Ibn Taymiyya already retroactively BTFO Guenon and the entire Western philosophical tradition though

>> No.15087990
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>>15087903
This argument holds such little steam considering mayahanist buddhism so quickly slipped back into the idea of an all pervading self (buddha-nature). Call a stone a stone. Whats the difference between nirvana as _ and atman as brahman anyway. In the end its all one c;

>> No.15088001
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>>15087906
Thanks brother.
Peace unto you.

>> No.15088016

What is their take on Jains, Mandaeans, and Zoroastrians?

>> No.15088049

>>15087961
Ibn Taymiyya was a hypocrite for writing many criticisms of Tasawwuf while himself being a member of the Qadiri tariqa. Guenon had many criticisms of the Greeks and the western philosophical tradition as well.

>> No.15088061

>>15087990
>>15087939
It seems that almost all scholars disagree with you brother. Have you read the sources in this picture? >>15087784

It is a Hindu nationalist talking points that all the Indic religions are mere extensions of the Upanishads. In fact we know almost nothing about the development of these traditions during the second urbanization period in the Gangetic plain ca. 500BC, other than that they overlapped and had mutual influences. Scholarly consensus actually views sramanical culture as an imposition on the older brahmanical priesthood, which was focused in the Northwest in this period and only one voice among many. The Upanishads developed alongside and in reaction to Jainism and Buddhism, and vice versa, and we're then assimilated into neo-brahmanism, and even that wasn't formalized into anything like "Hinduism" until the Guptas. Truly India was a fascinating place at this time. It's a shame we don't have better sources.

Of course, if you are a more dogmatic Hindu and simply believe your religious texts come before all others, that is your right. But it is not the majority view or the experts' view. Either way, you are correct that it need not distract from studying perennialism. Only uneducated bhaktis on the internet insist on the primacy of the Vedas anyway, because they associated it with "Hindu identity."

The real identify and pride of India is the fascinating philosophical ferment it produced, so that when Shankara founded a new sort of Hinduism by synthesizing Mahayana philosophy and asceticism with a new non-dualist reading of the Upanishads, it not only caught on, but inspired equally vigorous dualist and qualified non-dualist readings (probably more in accordance with the early brahmanical philosophy).

>>15087990
An interesting reading!

>> No.15088066

What is your take on Kashmir Shaivism? Invalid because it was extinct but then resurrected?

>> No.15088103

>>15088061
Apologies for typos, I'm on my phone.

What do you guys think of Marsilio Ficino's prisca theologia? I find it hard to balance an openness to esoteric and hermetic history, excluded by secular scholarship, with the critical rigor of scholarship. Obviously we can't be completely credulous about the claims of every tradition.

>>15088066
Doesn't Guenon allow for a tradition to be "renewed" even after it's lost all its followers and such?

>> No.15088523

>>15088061
I'm aware that some scholars disagree, but I am also aware of multiple scholars who agree with my perspective. Also, having actually read some of Shankaracharya's works themselves, it seems clear to me that his ideas come from the Upanishads. My personal experience reading the texts in question was sufficient for me to accept that viewpoint, I trust my own careful judgement better than anyone else's at the end of the day; although I respext other people's right to have their own respective viewpoints. That said, I am not interested in having discussions about historical influence as I consider them to be an unimportant distraction from the real spiritual teachings, and also to be a cause of division which all too unfortunately leads to anger when certain people take personal offense at something in the discussion (especially when one tries to deny that the others scripture is authentic in some way, for instance how Muslims become angry if you deny that the Quran comes from Allah). Rene Guenon in his writings illuminates countless instances of scholars of eastern religions making misassumptions about doctrine and not understanding the spirit of the text. We can learn from Rene's writings by not letting ourselves get drawn into such divisive topics and instead focus on what's really important. Although if you want to have a conversation about the historical development of religions you are welcome to make your own thread.
>>15088066
The chain of initation may not be fully intact, but there are still people who have devoted their lives to studying it who teach it to others and there are many writings of it which survive. So I still consider it worthwhile to study it because it has a lot of wisdom to offer and one can always study and practice its teachings even while initated into another tradition. The main Kashmir Shaivite philosopher Abhinavagupta himself was initated into many Tantra schools. There are other surviving schools of Shaivism into which one can still be initiated today such as the Naths and the Veerashaivas.

Here are links to two different teachers of Kashmir Shaivism, one based in Oregon and the other in Thailand

http://www.shrikaliashram.org

https://www.themovementcenter.com/kashmir-shaivism

>> No.15088648

>>15088523
It is an interesting point of contention. I agree that discussing historical issues can lead to anger if it's done in a shallow way. But for me it's the opposite. The contingency of specific traditions and specific forms of revelation not only deflates simplistic attachment to any one dogma or tradition, it highlights the necessity of a meta-historical perspective. You can't remain "critical" in a merely negative sense forever. Critique of insufficient truth presupposes an interest in sufficient truth.

Similar to how philosophy for the Greeks begins with the initial negation of doxa (received opinion), by the question "what SHOULD we think/do?" The initial admission of ignorance is inherently apophatic and points beyond itself to truth, just a truth not yet known.

I will discuss the historical stuff with anyone who's interested, I don't think it's really in the spirit of 4chan to arbitrarily divide threads or try to impose a single viewpoint on them. Just let the discussion flow.

An interesting corollary of the historical approach is that you can reclaim texts and thinkers, and even techniques and methods, otherwise neglected by scholars and traditional practitioners. The traditional practitioners neglect them because they are outside the sclerotic, received narrative of the tradition, and the scholars neglect them because all they are good for is deconstructing sclerotic narratives. But if you avoid the excesses of either group, you can go back and reclaim all sorts of interesting things otherwise ignored by history. There are dozens of schools of Buddhism, Jainism, Tantra, and Brahmanism that simply got absorbed or crushed, but who's to say they didn't have much deeper insights? Again the scholars won't care to study them, because they didn't have a "significant cultural impact," or they'll only study them for some stupid reason like they had proto-LGBT acceptance etc., and the traditionalists won't study them because they are "heretical."

I like the pizza Guenonian's approach to Kashmir Shaivism/Tantrism because it shows the supra-dogmatic subtlety you naturally cultivate when you have glimpses of genuine enlightenment. The vulgar form of this is syncretic pseudo-perennialism, but this is the higher form of it, actually backed by insight. And perhaps even that initial syncretism is useful as a starting point.

>> No.15088731

>>15088016
I can't remember any of the Traditionalists writing much about them, I personally don't feel drawn to their teachings although I understand that some people feel a natural inclination towards the heavy asceticism of the Jains or the dualism of the Mandaeans and Zoroastrians. There are a few references Guenon makes to Zoroastrian doctrine in his books on metaphysics but there is not much of them compared to his referencing of other religions

>> No.15088804

>>15087779
Shmegel, blya

>> No.15088845

>>15088648
>The traditional practitioners neglect them because they are outside the sclerotic, received narrative of the tradition
I think it's using loaded and insensitive language to describe any religious tradition as 'sclerotic', there is no inherent reason why a religious tradition that has preserved the same tradition for hundreds of years or even a millennia or two would necessarily be 'sclerotic'. To the contrary many of the long-established traditions of India have had some remarkably flexible thinkers who carefully read the writings of other schools, who strove to present the ideas of their school in a new light, who wrote doxographies comparing and hierarchically ordering the various schools and who engaged in extensive dialectics and debates with other schools in the course of back-and-forths spanning centuries. Having a commitment to any one school or tradition, which is a personal matter, does not prevent one from studying anything else unless one chooses to purposely close off one's mind to anything else.

>> No.15088905

>>15088016
I don't think anyone really bothers researching the deal with Yazidis, Mandaeans, Zoroastrians, etc. because all outsiders are refused.

>> No.15089080

>>15088845
Any discourse can become sclerotic insofar as some of its elements are only maintained because of the inertia of tradition. Traditions tend toward sclerosis unless they're refreshed through actual contact with something divine, or at least experiential.

If it gets too bad, you get a revolution to break away from it, and the baby is thrown out with the bathwater, like the nominalist controversies of the 14th century smashing "scholasticism" with a hammer and paving the way for 16th+ century philosophy to think it has to start over from scratch. Scholasticism is still a byword for meaningless casuistry for its own sake even today, but if you even scratch the surface you immediately see its Aristotelian mental gymnastics initially took place in a Neoplatonic and Augustinian framework that took direct experience for granted.

My experience of Indian scholars has been the opposite for the most part, same as any other tradition but made a little worse by the fact that India is a developing country and had to define and refine itself to survive as a nation. A lot of scholars and religious practitioners are just shallow propagandists for their local cult as a result. They are more like the shittier scholastics than the good ones. A few rare exceptions do work like what you describe, but imho when their main aim (whether they know it or not) is "BTFOing" other traditions for narrow nationalistic goals, they are inadvertently killing their own.

>> No.15089199

>>15088049
He only wrote against the worshiping of graves and saints and the denial of the names and attributes of Allah. Abdu'l-Qadir al-Jilani himself was an Athari in 'Aqida, meaning he was not an apophaticist like many of the later Sufis or Guenon.

>> No.15089223

>>15088905
Only Parsis disallow conversion. Irani Zoroastrians allow it.

>> No.15090609

bump

>> No.15091084

>>15087961
Can the brothers give a TLDR on his supposed refutation?

>> No.15091688

>>15089080
>A few rare exceptions do work like what you describe
I was talking about medieval-era and early-modern Hindu scholars and philosophers doing that as an example of how their traditions are not sclerotic and not modern scholars

>> No.15092175

>>15087758
holy based...

>> No.15092359

>>15087758
>use the Quran as a means of having interfaith dialogue
yeah, nevermind all the passages about enslavement and dhimmitude of the infidel non-believers... the Quran is really about interfaith dialogues.

>> No.15092929

>>15087758
pdfs are no good, do you have epubs?

>> No.15093097

>>15092929
what? you must be a fiction reader

>> No.15093420
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>>15092929
you might be able to find some on lib-gen if you organize search results by file type my brother