ITT: serious discussion of Guenon only!

[Anonymous No.15019049]

This is a thread to have serious discussions of the books written by the influential French intellectual Rene Guenon. It has come to my attention that some people think that the memes being made about him are created by those who have ulterior motives. I myself cannot speculate on such matters, but in response to the people I have seen who have bemoaned the lack of detailed and in-depth discussion of the man's ideas and his books, I would like to create just such a thread for that purpose.

[Anonymous No.15019069]

If you are interested in Guénon then join me and let's discuss his ideas. I raised questions concerning your incessant spamming, which you were not able to answer. Would you mind providing your insights into this?

Why don't you want to discuss Guénon? Why did you, I'm quoting you verbatim on this, say that (>>15017600):
1. It is the only way to attract young intellectuals into perrenialism.
when Guénon himself talks of the uselessness of attracting crowds of any type.
2. There is no other way to spread the truth.
when "spreading the truth" is inherently modern? No tradition has ever "spread" the truth, only western socities are preoccupied with such earthly matters.

https://www.docdroid.net/LN1Xb7Z/334073615-304385672-rene-guenon-east-and-west-pdf-pdf#page=61 Here you can address directly Guénon's stance on "organization" and the constitution of an elite.

[Anonymous No.15019074]

>>15019069
I love how it's being revealed that guenonfag actually knows nothing about Guenon

[Anonymous No.15019087]

Reminder that the four questions there were asked of the deranged poster who spams Guénon were the following:

How is your spamming not counter-traditional?
How is proselytism excused when Guénon says himself proselytism is crass and modern?
How is joking about (pbuh) in any way respectful of Guénon and Islam?
Why do you post his picture when Guénon was against having his picture taken and spread?

and he provided an answer, after being bombarded with the same question a dozen times because he ignored them. You can his answer here >>15017600

Now I have tried to discuss guénon with him a dozen times more but he keeps making new threads when I ask of him more details. So I ask of you, since you made this thread nicely for the sake of amiable discussion, to provide an answer to the questions I asked.

[Anonymous No.15019093]

>>15019069
>If you are interested in Guénon then join me and let's discuss his ideas. I raised questions concerning your incessant spamming, which you were not able to answer. Would you mind providing your insights into this?
Hello, I am not the person who is spamming Guenon, in fact I created this thread in response to your complaints so that people who were interested in having a serious discussion could congregate in one thread. I do enjoy talking about his books and ideas, where would you like to begin?

[Anonymous No.15019118]

>>15019093
Then I would like you to give your impression on the nature of the incessant spamming that has been occuring for months on this very board. What are your feelings about proselytism? Specifically I would like you to provide insights into why the deranged poster said that spamming was useful to "attract young intellectuals into perrenialism" and how this relates to counter-traditionalism

[Anonymous No.15019128]

>>15019118
I really don't care about it one way or another and I only made this thread to talk about Guenon and not meta board-related stuff.

[Anonymous No.15019136]

Holy based.....

[Anonymous No.15019150]

>>15019128
This. Guenonbros ignore the autistic faggot who wants to talk about how it's counter-traditional to have a Guenon thread.

[Anonymous No.15019176]

Guenon is terrible and autistic. His philosophy sucks. It's unoriginal. It's awful and stupid. You should never read Guenon and you definitely shouldn't listen to any audiobooks of him. Guenon was kind of a weird guy in the way that Americans are kind of a weird bunch of people. Americans love to treat Guenon as if he were this musical god. They think that Guenon was this really inventive genius. But in reality, he was a very mediocre person and he was also a really shitty fellow. He was one of the top two or three like the worst people in Europe to have ever lived. He was an alcoholic, he was bad at everything, he was mentally ill and gay.

[Anonymous No.15019188]

>>15019176
Dude, stop this. It's obvious you're false flagging to cause more shitposting and it's obvious you're just going to reply to yourself with your own copypasta again. Why are you doing this? Just post normally.

[Anonymous No.15019218]

>>15019176
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little hylic? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Mystery Schools, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on the modern world HQ, and I have over 300 confirmed rituals. I am trained in Guénonian (pbuh) warfare and I'm the top priest in the entire Egyptian imam forces. You are nothing to me but just another pleb. I will convert you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Guénonians (pbuh) across the USA and your aura is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can convert you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed preaching, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Grand Parisian Masonic Lodge and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your profane fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

[Anonymous No.15019226]

>>15019049
I think blacks are subhuman, AMA

[Anonymous No.15019285]

There’s absolutely no chance of having a serious discussion about most things on this board let alone Guenon or his contemporaries. Just go to one of the other sites where people actually read his books. They’re out there.

[Anonymous No.15019286]

>>15019176
>>15019150
>>15019136
>>15019128
all it took was 4 question and you dived straight back into complete schizophrenia kek, must I redirect you to guénon's thought on the nature of schizophrenia and subconscious influences (you talked of a dream earlier)?

[Anonymous No.15019369]

>>15019286
Hello, OP here, as I have already explained to you, I am not the person posting in other threads that you assume me to be. This thread is for serious discussion of Rene Guenon's ideas, please take your arguments with the other posters somewhere else, thank you

[Anonymous No.15019394]

>>15019286
so u became a schizo retard in the process nice

[Anonymous No.15019599]

>>15019286
Holy cringe.....

[Anonymous No.15019710]

Guenon keeps arguing that Western languages are ill-suited for metaphysical discussion, but he never explains why.

[Anonymous No.15019731]

>>15019710
Ideograms...... Based
Latin alphabet......cringe

[Anonymous No.15019742]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4YzjfCHAqo

[Anonymous No.15019754]

>>15019710
Ideograms such as the Chinese ones allow for more subtle ideas to be communicated and for infinite combinations of symbolism. The Sanskrit language was perfected by genius grammarians to be probably the most refined language ever created. I'm not as familiar with this last topic but apparently there is some immense metaphysical symbolism in the very structure of the Arabic language and the letters. I don't know of any parallels of these cases in western languages.

[Anonymous No.15019763]

>>15019754
Based!

[Anonymous No.15019860]

>>15019710
I like to think in terms of an originary language. Most religions see the act of signification as being divine. In Genesis, Adam's dominon over the world is expressed through the signification of all that existed around him. We could argue that in this primitive state of union with the Divine his intelect and reality were one. Not in the sense that his perspective of reality created reality but in the sense that it matched it perfectly. After the fall (denial of God) man corrupts himself and the union or parity between his intelect and reality is severed. This is why this originary divine gramar that ruled this first language is so important. It aproximates us with the things in themselves, with a higher understanding of God.
Think about the proximity of a random african dialect and a language developed for thousands of years by an advanced civilization with clear initiatory practices and rich mythos to this primordial/divine language. I am not an expert on Guenon, but i think his position can be defended through originary thinking.

[Anonymous No.15019895]

>>15019049
Why is contemplation superior to action, and what does this actually mean? Is Guenon saying you should be staring at the wall all day?

[Anonymous No.15019901]

>>15019895
Staring at the sky is preferred.

[Anonymous No.15019903]

>>15019754
>Ideograms

nope

[Anonymous No.15019913]

>>15019895
I'll provide an answer in a few hours, until then we'll see if the deranged poster can come up with one. But I doubt he has any understanding of contemplation outside of memes.

[Anonymous No.15019919]

>>15019895
Actions effects are limited to the plane of manifestation. Contemplation can go beyond this and unite you with Brahma

[Anonymous No.15019937]

Guenon poster is stormnigger crypto larping. The entire point of getting you to read Guenon is to wow you with mystical jargon that is self contradictory to increase the likelihood you will be hoodwinked by the next grifter asking for patreon bucks.

He is probably in the process of writing "Based Guenon" right now and trying to astroturf for it.

[Anonymous No.15019939]

>>15019919
this doesn't explain why contemplation is superior to action, nor why "actions effects" are limited to this "place of manifestation".

[Anonymous No.15019956]

>>15019937
Guénon is the absolute opposite of this, his entire works is aimed at neutralizing fake gurus,fake initiatic groups, the resurgence of parodic religiosity and counter-traditionalism. The dude spamming him has NOT read Guénon, >>15019895 he will not provide an actual answer to this because he doesn't know. Check the few guénon threads up right now, I've asked him to explain himself and he didn't, he doesn't understand Guénon at all. He talks of proselytism to "lure the young intellectuals into perrenialism" yet Guénon has been EXPLICIT about proselytism. Dude is straight up deranged and counter-traditional.

[Anonymous No.15019964]

>>15019956
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little hylic? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Mystery Schools, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on the modern world HQ, and I have over 300 confirmed rituals. I am trained in Guénonian (pbuh) warfare and I'm the top priest in the entire Egyptian imam forces. You are nothing to me but just another pleb. I will convert you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Guénonians (pbuh) across the USA and your aura is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can convert you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed preaching, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Grand Parisian Masonic Lodge and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your profane fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

[Anonymous No.15019965]

>>15019895
Smoke some hash while you're at it.

[Anonymous No.15020000]

>>15019286
Imagine thinking Guenon posters are actually being serious. It's another meme you retard. They are not schizophrenics, they are just meming - and you fell for it.

[Anonymous No.15020006]

>>15020000
Confirmed initiate using meme magic to expose the truth. Based post.

[Anonymous No.15020015]

>>15019913
Thanks, I will check back for your post.

[Anonymous No.15020023]

>>15019895
>Why is contemplation superior to action, and what does this actually mean
Guenon has a whole chapter about this topic in Crisis of the Modern World, it would be better for you to read it in his own words, you can read the chapter in 15 minutes

https://dinghal.com/bibliotheek/The_Crisis_of_the_Modern_World.pdf

[Anonymous No.15020024]

Guenon is Q

[Anonymous No.15020035]

>>15019176
>in the way that Americans are solipsistic apes with negligible apprehension of the reality of other selves.
At least this is how Robert Frost would have put the matter if sending it up didn't give him so much more satisfaction.

[Anonymous No.15020056]

>>15020000
He is serious, he just alternates between serious and nonserious when it suits him. Just like his friend the Swedish guenon spammer who alternates between spamming Shankara and talking about "feminine cocks" and "eating trap cum with a spoon."

[Anonymous No.15020060]

>>15019895

>When Rene Guénon was a young man in France, one night he set out for a long walk through the woods. During this exercise in “peripatetic contemplation,” a practice to which he had accustomed himself, he accidentally fell into a ditch that was so deep it was impossible for him to find a way out on his own.
>Stranded in complete darkness in this pit in the middle of the woods, with no one within sight to be summoned for help, Guénon thought he had finally met his end. As he prepared himself for what seemed to be an inevitable death, a hand appeared from above, seemingly out of nowhere, and pulled him out of the ditch.
>No sooner, however, had he been rescued by this unknown figure, that he took off and disappeared into the woods, as swiftly and mysteriously as he had appeared. While Guénon’s attempts to catch up to him to offer his heartfelt gratitude were unsuccessful, he did manage to get a clear look at his face. Many years later, while in Cairo, Guénon attended a Sufi gathering involving a majlis of dhikr, only to find the man who had rescued him years before in France seating at the center of the gathering.
>As Guénon went into a shock, ecstatically pointing at the man who he recognized from years before, the mysterious figure who happened to be Shaikh Salāma Ḥasan al-Rāḍī, a Sufi master, stood up, smiled and embraced Guenon, acknowledging their previous encounter. The miraculous nature of the incident — well-known to the members of the shaikh’s order — lay in that Shaykh al-Rāḍī had never stepped foot in France in his life. The charismatic power of the shaykh was so strong that he was himself not the member of any ṭarīqa, having instead founded his own.

[Anonymous No.15020063]

>>15020056
Uhhhh based department? Yeah we have a case in Sweden that needs immediate attention

[Anonymous No.15020070]

>>15019895
>Upon being asked to elaborate, he explained that Guénon would sometimes stand in his balcony overlooking Cairo and stare into the night sky literally for hours. When I inquired from his son as to the precise nature of his spiritual practice, he replied in one word: “contemplation”

[Anonymous No.15020076]

>>15020060
HOLY BASED
HOLY BASED
PEACE BE UPON THIS MIGHTY POST

[Anonymous No.15020077]

>>15020056
>Just like his friend the Swedish guenon spammer who alternates between spamming Shankara and talking about "feminine cocks" and "eating trap cum with a spoon."
You never showed that those posts were made by the same Swedish IP who was posting about Guenon, they didn't have the same files or filenames, you just showed a random Swede IP saying that without any context, typical hylic duplicity to slander a fellow Guenonbrother so baselessly. I wonder if your choice of slander involved a bit of projection?

[Anonymous No.15020086]

>>15020070
>>15020060
>>15020076

Holy based...
Truly, contemplation > action...
PBUH...

"Those who might be tempted to give way to despair should realize that nothing accomplished in this order can ever be lost, that confusion, error and darkness can win the day only apparently and in a purely ephemeral way, that all partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the greater equilibrium of the whole, and that nothing can ultimately prevail against the power of truth."

[Anonymous No.15020110]

Reminder
Submit your 40 page justification essay for each post to [e-mail] before posting in a Guenon thread

[Anonymous No.15020174]

>>15020060
>>15020070
>>15020076
>>15020086
He didn't ask for the wikipedia entry on how Guénon used to spend his evening fucking braindead zoomer faggot. He asked this:
>Why is contemplation superior to action, and what does this actually mean? Is Guenon saying you should be staring at the wall all day?
You weren't able to provide an answer so you resort back to epic memes posting. You have NEVER read Guénon. You have NEVER discussed any of his ideas. You have NEVER answered anything remotely related to traditionalism. You have NEVER made something intelligent out of yourself. You are the most pathetic poster I have seen in two decades of internet.


You are DIRTYING Guénon's name, for god knows what reason (Those who have read Guénon know EXACTLY why you pick this man to slander instead of another, those who have understood and are inclined to study metaphysics know very damn well the influences you are under) What is extremely sad is that you are not even able to tell us why you picked Guénon. Why meme him? Instead of another? You have no answer; because you are not the arbiter of your own volition. I will post in every single one of your thread until the end times, so that every single IP that logs onto this forsaken website will understand that traditionalism has NOTHING to do with you. You are already humiliated, you are already devoid of dignity - you will kill yourself by the time your buffooning ceases to garner replies, but you already know that your threads attracts nobody, you are alone, hopping between your cell and computer, switching IP to spam your filth, entertaining your pathetic non-existence with your delusions.

>>15020015
Please do come back as I will provide a satisfying answer to your question.

[Anonymous No.15020186]

>>15020174
>>Why is contemplation superior to action, and what does this actually mean? Is Guenon saying you should be staring at the wall all day?

>The author seems to know—for instance—not only that Guénon occasionally smoked opium before he was 26, but also that Albert Puyou (Matgioi), the Count of Pouvourville had taught him. He seems to have cast-iron proof of it: Matgioi has written a book on opium (pp. 58, 283). Mark Sedgwick also wonders—in the manner of a ‘good,’ modern historian—whether Guénon would have moved to Egypt had it not been for his comforting, new lover, Mary (Dina) Shillito (p. 74). Despite the fact that in Cairo many Muslims took Guénon to be a saint (or even more than that), it turns out that during ramadam he did not refrain from “smoking a cigarette and drinking a coffee,” and he did not go on a pilgrimage to Mecca (pp. 75–76).

[Anonymous No.15020201]

>>15020174
Ok boomer

[Anonymous No.15020203]

>>15019895
>Why is contemplation superior to action, and what does this actually mean?

Another reason why these precious stones should be used when drinking Amrita is because it is the most appropriate material to handle these stones as they are sweet, pleasant and are many times burned. Once they are in the spiritual pool, it will help spiritually generate a good feeling toward the dhikr.

Gregory Thaumaturgus: Yes, I understand what you mean.

Guénon: Yes, because I have seen an entire village of those (who have) not only extracted the own seeds but also prayed for them.

- Extract from Guenon's (pbuh) diary.

[Anonymous No.15020211]

>>15020174
guenonfag does nothing but quote wikipedia articles, every time he talks to someone like you who actually knows what they're talking about he gets utterly humiliated. the kicker is that he later lies about it, he'll lie about it to your face until you give up and he'll lie and say you agreed with him tomorrow. nothing matters to him.

been at it for years and he won't even learn the languages necessary to undertake initiation either, just keeps getting older and talking about driving to a math some day, probably emailed the guru twice to ask if they take nonindians. he'll never do anything, he wants to spend the rest of his life here. no amount of trying to save him from this hell will ever help. he enjoys it.

[Anonymous No.15020218]

>>15020203
>Yes, I understand what you mean.
Holy.... BAAAASED!

[Anonymous No.15020230]

>>15020174
You are guenonfag

[Anonymous No.15020238]

>Guénon's influence on literary, art, and literature has been profound, and according to one of his students, Shaykh wa-Allahi al-Amin, the two most defining characteristics of his work were his need to view the world with a metaphysical (and literary) eye and his sense of time as timeless. Shaykh al-Amin further asserts that Guénon's writing possesses the deep longing and satori of the great religious figures who inspired him, in particular, the Hindu metaphysician Shankaracharya.

[Anonymous No.15020250]

>>15020211
I've repeatedly told you that 1) I'm in a relationship and 2) that I'm heterosexual, and still you insist on these pathetic displays of your homoerotic obsession with me

[Anonymous No.15020281]

Brothers.....the y have come for me in the bigcar...they will take me away again to the hospital.... Peace be upon you all...even the fag. They are take me awaykwn

[Anonymous No.15020329]

>>15020250
i don't know who you're talking to, i didn't say you're gay i said you're a fraud retard who claims half the time to have been initiated and half the time to be considering initiation, for several years. nothing you say can be believed, the only thing that is clear about you is you're a sad and confused individual. although i wouldn't be surprised if you are the gay swede too, not that i even care about whether you're gay.

you are mentally ill. stop forcing memes and trying to force yourself as a meme on a messageboard for years.. or at least stop using a legitimate thinker and philosophy as your tool to do it, because it ruins it for the people who actually want to talk about that thing you schizo asshole. i know multiple people who browse this board who have openly joked that they want to punch guenon in the face thanks to your spamming his image constantly and that they associate indian ideas with your psycho behavior. this isn't even a joke, you are doing damage.

[Anonymous No.15020345]

>>15020329
Stop proselytising.

[Anonymous No.15020374]

>>15020345
> this isn't even a joke, you are doing damage.
That's exactly what he's "trying" to do, but as I said, he is not the arbiter of his own volition, as one will understand if one is acquainted with Guénon.

Everything he does is literally, explicitly counter-traditional. To anyone who has read the traditionalist it is obvious, not remotely hidden. He is young, confused and misled, and by diving into realms too complex for his spirit, he opened himself up to negative influences who are making a mockery of him. He is humiliating himself 24/7 and he doesn't even realize it. You're talking to a very, very deranged person.

[Anonymous No.15020393]

>>15020345
go read guenon seriously for a change instead of spending years recommending his three or four most basic works. go read something other than wikipedia pages about real indian philosophy. commit yourself to learning the languages necessary to pursue your plans of initiation, you could have learned sanskrit twice over by now, i know somebody who learned sanskrit and a lot of pali just in the time since you've been posting nonsense here. think of how much better you could be if you weren't such a hateful sad person.

if you want to initiate properly you will have to be honest with your guru. are you going to be honest about how evil you behave online? if you omit to tell him how you behave about your religious convictions you will be lying to him by omission. you are losing your best years to be pursuing your beliefs in a proper way. i hope the other person doesn't waste his time trying to convince you, there is something twisted up and evil about you that you sink to this level while claiming to have religious insights.

>>15020374
you've got us mixed up, i'm the one telling him to stop acting so evil because of petty internet feuds.

[Anonymous No.15020421]

>>15020393
Yeah sorry, I meant to reply to you.

[Anonymous No.15020429]

>>15020374
>>15020421
my bad, i didn't realise you had greentexted me and were replying to me. hope i didn't sound rude.

yes i agree completely. it's hard to watch because as you say, to anyone really familiar with these texts and authors it is very obvious that he's mixed up in things that are beyond his level and he's only digging himself deeper into the problem. you put it well when you say his negative influences are making a mockery of him.

i genuinely hope he gets well. this has been sad to watch unfold over so long. it makes me particularly sad to see some of his posts claiming metaphysical and spiritual insights and in the very post he also writes vulgar things about semen and 4chan memes.

[Anonymous No.15020436]

>>15020429
>>15020421
>>15020393
>>15020374
>>15020329
These posters are gangstalkers. They are outside my window. One of them is on the roof

[Anonymous No.15020456]

>>15019286
cringe

>>15020060
based (pbuh)

[Anonymous No.15020458]

>>15019754
But sanskrit is mostly written in north Indian scripts, like devanagari, an alphasyllabary. Anyway the word you're thinking of is logogram, chinese characters don't depict what they represent as ideograms do.

[Anonymous No.15020459]

>>15020436
it is remarkably easy to "stalk" someone when they create ten of the same threads every day and copypasta their own posts every day, carrying out whole samefag conversations with themselves that always play out in the same way.

do whatever you want man, just look how even people who are sympathetic to you and your interests (me and this other guy) react to you.. shouldn't that be a sign

[Anonymous No.15020480]

>>15020459
It's a sign that the CIA are on the roof with the big cameras. Is Bannon funding this gaslighting too?

[Anonymous No.15020534]

>>15019956
You will be dealt with, hylic

[Anonymous No.15020555]

>>15020459
Cringe...
>>15020534
Based and Guénpilled

[Anonymous No.15020602]

>1 autismal hylic with mental illness vs based Guenon (pbuh) gang

Can the spirit, intellect, bravery, and rationality of the Guenon (pbuh) gang be enough to defeat the evil forces of one anon with severe autism??? Find out next time in another contemplation packed episode of /lit/.

[Anonymous No.15020831]

>>15020602
We are under attack by demons at this very moment

[Anonymous No.15020852]

>"Guenon is the soul (sic?) reason I got into philosophy. Peace be upon him" - George Battle

[Anonymous No.15020921]

crijnge
bansesd

[Anonymous No.15020932]

>>15020852
Georgr battle had control over his volition and that's what he could write the books. His right eye in that picture was under demon control and it blinked faster than the other eye. He submitted the book to approval by the uwu lord of lit before publishing

[Anonymous No.15020933]

Visiting his grave in Cairo as soon as this quarantine ends, brothers..

[Anonymous No.15021144]

>>15019956
>>15019956
>his entire works is aimed at neutralizing fake gurus,fake initiatic groups,
What is the difference between Guenon and Theosophy then? How is it different than secular neoplatonism? The one single thing I wan't to know about Guenon is how(if it even can be) is it applied Universally or does he literally just claim that his initiation is primary because it was his and hes literally too stupid to recognize his own bias.

For thousands of years people have been noting a life-force to permeate through all beings and endow them with various "consciousness" or vitality, in Yoruba it's called Ase. Each culture describes this in different degrees of complexity, and the tradition you're referencing seems to take it to a more analytical note than most. Sure it's dazzling and something to ponder but it truly irks me that ancient truths can float around for centuries until some European takes a hold and over-complicates it when people have known it intuitively for ages. Don't get me wrong I see the appeal but I can't overlook the sheer pointlessness of it half the time this happens.