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15006311 No.15006311 [Reply] [Original]

The Superman is a man who's will is no longer subjugated by meta-narratives (wills that are imposed upon him.)

>> No.15006324

The only thing that clicked is your preconceived politics into the aesthetic authority of Nietzsche's name. That is to say, the wrong reading of Nietzsche.

>> No.15006327

>>15006324
Not an argument.

>> No.15006344

>>15006311
So he can still be Superman if his will is subjugated by normal narratives, or by non-narratives? Sweet.

>> No.15006350

>>15006344
>normal narratives
Are derived from meta-narratives

>non-narratives
Like physical realities? You would delusional to think you can overcome these; what you can overcome is your own spiritual subjugation, however.

>> No.15006377

>who's

Also, there's absolutely no reason to invoke the term "metanarrative" in describing the basics of Nietzsche's thought

>> No.15006448

>>15006311
>>15006350
Pseud alert.

>> No.15006455

>>15006448
Not an argument.

>> No.15006467
File: 1.13 MB, 2244x3348, Osho_HD_018.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15006467

>>15006311
The superman is a fascist idea. A new man is not superior in any way; a new man is really the most ordinary and simple man. Just try to understand one thing: that I want man to live naturally, ordinarily, without trying to become superior, without going into a pilgrimage toward paradise. Just here and now, and enjoy whatsoever life gives to you. Be creative, be intelligent - but this is not making you a superman. Nietzsche's superman created Adolf Hitler and the whole stupidity that followed. The new man is not the superman.

>> No.15006479

>>15006311
Why does he only have a half of a mustache? Isn't you following Nietzsche's conceptions just you following a will imposed upon you? If it is not imposed upon you because you accept it, can the same not be said of those accepting "meta-narratives?"

>> No.15006489

>>15006479
>Isn't you following Nietzsche's conceptions just you following a will imposed upon you?
This is just being reductive.

>> No.15006494

>>15006489
Not an argument.

>> No.15006526

>>15006467
Pretty based, except that one can interpret the Übermensch as exactly what Osho is describing. Nietzsche is a confrontational mirror, he is not interested in having you see through him to the inner "system" of his thought.

What I've really become interested in is the formation of the Romantic prophet-hero, of which the Übermensch seems to be the logical conclusion, taking the concept in its cultural context. If the Übermensch led to Hitler, that does not mean we can blame Nietzsche and be done with it: we have to look at that concept's own "genealogy."

>> No.15006530

>>15006494
Ok, fuck it then; I'll bite.

Nietzsche's ideas would be used as "tool" to remove meta-narratives that are acting upon you; he isn't actually asserting any positive claims or even an ontology that you should follow. His ideas cannot be a meta-narrative, as they are not creating a new ontology.

Does this make sense, or do you need me to further elaborate?

>> No.15006544 [DELETED] 

>>15006494
He (>>15006530 ) explains it a lot better than I did

>> No.15006556

>>15006530
What's a meta-narrative?

>> No.15006569

>>15006311
Overman

>> No.15006584

>>15006556
A way (story/lens/etc) that people use to attempt to make sense of the world, and from it, they derive values.

>> No.15006591
File: 1.04 MB, 2851x4309, Osho_HD_105.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15006591

>>15006526
It is not an accident that Friedrich Nietzsche was born in Germany. He talked about the superman, and Adolf Hitler believed that he was the superman about whom Friedrich Nietzsche was talking. Adolf Hitler is not even human - he is sub-human, below humanity, but he thinks that he is super-human. And he was trying to create a race of super-human beings. He brought the whole German ideology of perfectionism to its logical end. And you are conditioned, whether you know it or not, by that fascist, Nazi idea.

With me you have to relax. With me you have to drop your being a German or being an Indian or being an Italian. Whatsoever you are you have to drop it. You have to be just silent, blissful. You have to be just human - there is no need to be super-human.

>> No.15006593

Overman* and you're missing the point if you think you can become one.

>> No.15006610

>>15006584
Sounds like a spook.

>> No.15006614

>>15006610
Yeah, that's the point. Meta-narratives are spooks.

>> No.15006813

>>15006467
nooo you cant just say one thing is superior to another noo things have to be the SAME and EQUAL and if they arent EQUAL then its FASCIST

cringe

>> No.15006843

>>15006467
True, too many people use the superman theory as a way to feel good about their ego

>> No.15006873

>>15006467
Osho is on the level of Toby Robbins.

>> No.15007359

>>15006327
molyfags are the worst kind of people.

>> No.15007370

>>15006324
I clicked my dick into your mom last night like a seatbelt

>> No.15007488

>>15007359
I don't watch Stefan Moneyjew, and you still failed to respond with an argument.

>> No.15007552

>>15006350
Your emotions and desires are non-narrative fetters. Nietzsche did speak of allowing oneself to be ruled by them, but that was only a transitory step, the going under.

>> No.15007717
File: 119 KB, 1000x1000, Khomeini 3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15007717

>>15007552
>The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world

>> No.15007793

>>15006311
Yes
>>15006467
starts of based then gets cucked. Nietzsches superman can be whatever. People confuse the late-work formulation of Nietzsches own historical vision of superman with the philosophical foundation that he builds up in his mid-work
>>15006479
Indeed, Nietzsche comments in his very first work that those who truly follow him will emancipate themselves from him.
>>15006530
You are right but Nietsche anticipated that his work CAN be a meta-narrative. It is one of the main problems he analyses in Zarathustra. Zarathustras incapacity to escape being reduced to a "meta-narrative" by his followers.
>>15006591
Silence and bliss are main pillars of nietzsches work. Get your education about nietzsche from some other place than lit.
>>15006593
Reread the beginning of Zarathustra. I love those who wish to overcome, for they are down-goers. Cynically denying the possibility of the overman is what nietzsche considers one of the cynical center points of the "last man", the dissolution of utopia centered on the human species itself. So he is certainly not missing the point.
>>15006610
Clever man, this is where the plagiarization accusations regarding stirner come from
>>15007717
Hater of the life and the world detected. You wish us to be just human but you deny lust?

Nietzsche was far ahead of you.

>> No.15007829

>>15006311
the world doesn't care about your beliefs, quite a strong word for not caring too much

>> No.15007867

>>15007793
oh i must add that "wills imposed upon you" is a misunderstanding. Its not about wills, the will is omnipresent and omnipotent, it controls you, it is determinant. Nietzsche remained a schopenhauerian throughout all of his life. Nietzsche calls for an identification, amor fati, of your life as it is played out. Liberation is not escaping the will or it no longer being imposed upon you, but affirming it, making it your own, becoming one with the tragedy. This is why his philosophy is open-ended and particularly tolerant. It is one of the great shames that he is read as an "aristocrat-only". He wishes for life to thrive fully, to not resist the will, to not deny and thus paralyze it, but to affirm it. His ethical and social demands are not pointed towards a certain end, but rather wish to set a foundation for life to develop freely, for mankind to create a liberty of being, by instilling a sense of identification with the will, something he saw present in antiquity and which he saw denied in judaist religions and buddhism.

>> No.15007869
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15007869

>>15006467
>The superman is a fascist idea.
So the idea of self-improvement is fascist? Also the new man probably reflects like 99% of people anyways, and is a bad ideology if you plan to have long term happiness,

>> No.15007880

>The Superman is a man who's will is no longer subjugated by meta-narratives (wills that are imposed upon him.)
Why say it like this when you can just say: "Supermen don't let others determine their beliefs for them"
Is there a significant difference between the two statements? I'll admit, I've only read a little bit of Nietzsche (Some assorted notes and Zarathustra part 1 and 2) so I could be wrong

>> No.15007881

>>15006530
Then why the aspiration towards an Ubermensch? Why the repudiation of decadence and resentiment? It sounds like he's telling you what to be and not to be. Or that you ought to remove meta-narratives. Please elucidate either my veracity or unfathomable stupidity to me, because I am unable to do so

>> No.15007906

>>15007880
You lack the constructive element in this. The true quality of the superman is that he can give birth to truth and value himself.

>> No.15007911

>>15007793
> Hater of the life and the world detected. You wish us to be just human but you deny lust?

Your mistake is thinking your desire is life and what makes you human. Reality becomes so much more real once one moves past them. Desire is but a mind abstraction that dissociates one from the real.

>> No.15007919

>>15007881
He's trying to light a fire in you. You're supposed to fight Nietzsche, not meekly follow him.

>> No.15007939

>>15007881
Rightfully you ask this question. OP has missed out (because he has not read schopenhauer) that there is an ontological foundation in Nietzsches work: The Will (to power).

Lust, Affirmation he claims emerges when we find identification with "our" will, with the forces driving us, and being driven upon us in our life. Whereas Schopenhauer affirmed the negativity of the will, Nietzsche sees it as the main constructive force of existance, and that it leads to elevation and expansion, something which inherently, due to our integration into the will, is a positive experience, the fundament of what we consider "lust" or "joy".

This is why the liberation of meta-narratives is neccesary. It is only necessary though because we are stuck within a christian truth, as nietzsche sees it, of will-denial, resentment against life and our powerlessness.

OP has forgotten, and this is why Nietzsche has not yet truly clicked with him, that this liberation from Meta-Narratives is an abyss, and that there emerges a necessity for a new truth to stabilize our life. This is then again where one overcomes nietzsches meta-narrativity, because here he proposes a totally free self-determined space of meaning, one which can even abandon the ontological foundation which has lead to the liberation itself. This is for example why christians somehow vibe strongly with Nietzsche, it allows to dismantle the meta narrative of christianity, and yet reaffirm it as a truth that they own.

>> No.15007944
File: 20 KB, 400x274, Evola 911.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15007944

>>15007911
>Desire is but a mind abstraction that dissociates one from the real.
based

>911
BASED

>> No.15007954

>>15007911
Reality becomes so much more? It seems to me you are talking of a superreality.

>> No.15007965
File: 261 KB, 1200x750, Guenon Based.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15007965

>>15007793
>>15007939
What are your thoughts on Guenon (pbuh) and the Sophia Perennis?

>> No.15007973

>>15007965
I am an ignorant on both, sory

>> No.15007978

>>15007973
Do you know Evola? Their ideas are largely similar.

>> No.15007987

>>15007978
havent read him either, but im interested in him.There is too much to read, and i like to engage deeply with the authors i read, so there are many big authors with which i am not familiar.

>> No.15008000

>>15007987
If you do ever choose to read Evola, I recommend "Meditations on the Peaks" and "Ride the Tiger" as initial starting places.

>> No.15008008

>>15006526
I did a short project on this for university recently, in relation to the Romantics - I took a path of development from Byron and Shelley via Nietzsche-Carlyle through to Gabriele D'Annunzio as the prototype for the fascist superman complex, so I would recommend reading something of all of the above.
Byron's 'Manfred' is a good place to start. If you decide to pursue some kind of study of it, I hope it turns out well c:

>> No.15008011

>>15006467
>The superman is a fascist idea
That is a compliment. But since you haven't read Nietzsche, you wouldn't know why.

>> No.15008059

>>15007939
>OP has missed out (because he has not read schopenhauer) that there is an ontological foundation in Nietzsches work: The Will (to power).
Not really true. He obliterates the idea of the will multiple times throughout his works. I remember he does it in the Gay Science, and again in Beyond Good and Evil, and again in Twilight of the Idols, and multiple times throughout the Will to Power. The actual concept, the will to power, is just a formal abstraction, which necessitates, first, some type of causality of the (fictitious) will. The will to power as a theory is no true than any other.

>> No.15008102
File: 98 KB, 1242x1234, 2b82f961d9dde9c116c13e8aea8eb017.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15008102

>>15006526
>>15006843
>>15006467
I kind of think you are trolling
The superman is an idea and not a goal, we current humans can't become the superman *but* we can be the bridge that will pave the way for future man to get to that goal. Really what he is advocating is self-improvement at a very ambigious optimistic way. An example of these bridges to the superman are Nikola Tesla, Leonardo da Vinci, Alexander Grothendieck and so-on. It has actually nothing to do with being "superior" but rather live a life devoted to your work and becoming better. To understand this you have to compare to the fact that the opposite is "The Last Man" which is the typical mediocre dad sitting on couch watching sports with a 6-pack of beers not doing anything meaningful because he is comfortable in his situation.
>>15006467
Yeah I think he's just trolling

>> No.15008113
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15008113

>>15008102
>It has actually nothing to do with being "superior" but rather live a life devoted to your work and becoming better. To understand this you have to compare to the fact that the opposite is "The Last Man" which is the typical mediocre dad sitting on couch watching sports with a 6-pack of beers not doing anything meaningful because he is comfortable in his situation.
So he was a Hindu?

>> No.15008143

>>15006610
>>15006584
>>15006556
>>15006530
Yes. Stirner's philosophy is essentially a moral philosophy with the ego/spook distinction mirroring Nietzsche's active/reactive distinction. Stirner is more brutal in his destruction of subhuman ideals, but Nietzsche is more subtle.

Even if Nietzsche did plaigarize Stirner (which is extremely likely, as apparently he had thoroughly read Lange's History of Materialism, in which Stirner is mentioned much, and signed out the book from the university library as a professor), it doesn't matter, for Nietzsche completed Stirner's own nihilistic destruction by positing a goal for The Unique One/The Ubermensch (again, same concept): the eternal recurrence. THIS was Nietzsche's masterstroke, his highest concept.

So, the future Union of Egoists / Nation of Ubermensch (also in Nietzsche's philosophy, see the last pages of The Will to Power) will work together and complete this task of resetting and destroying the universe so they can come back and relive their lives an infinite number of times. A true theoretical masterstroke, the perfect combination and reconciliation of Heraclitus, philosopher of becoming, with Stirner, philosopher of Ego.

>> No.15008148

>>15006311
How can Nietzsche click if you don't speak German?

>> No.15008150

>>15008143
>complete this task of resetting and destroying the universe so they can come back and relive their lives an infinite number of times.
Sounds batshit insane.

>> No.15008167

>>15008059
Im sorry but i simply know that you have not read Schopenhauer and thus misunderstand Nietzsche. It would be pointless to get into a further discussion regarding this.

Nietzsche is very easy to get into, but to truly grasp him, you need to know Plato, Kant and Schopenhauer. There is simply no way around this.

>> No.15008183

>>15008143
It is hilarious seeing the distinctions.
Active/reactive = ego/spook
will to power = egoism
power = property / "it's own"
the unique one = the ubermensch
Silly Nietzsche.
>>15008167
I have read Schopenahuer.

>> No.15008194

>>15008150
Considering who we are talking about (extremely bored and greedy powerhouses with freak of nature mental and physical strength and efficiency) I wouldn't be surprised.

>> No.15008231

>>15008143
>So, the future Union of Egoists / Nation of Ubermensch (also in Nietzsche's philosophy, see the last pages of The Will to Power) will work together and complete this task of resetting and destroying the universe so they can come back and relive their lives an infinite number of times. A true theoretical masterstroke, the perfect combination and reconciliation of Heraclitus, philosopher of becoming, with Stirner, philosopher of Ego.
What the fuck does this even mean?

>> No.15008253

>>15008231
The ubermensch reset time. Amor fati ubermensch create eternal recurrence.

>> No.15008254

>THE RARE TO THE RARE
>BE A SUPERMAN
>????????
>dies of schizophrenia induced by late stage syphilis while failing to follow any of this own advice.

What did he mean by this?

>> No.15008261
File: 75 KB, 325x244, squiddy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15008261

>>15007919
I plan to fight him, but I am woefully armed. Perhaps I will rejoin the battle in many years, when I have superior armaments (that is, books).

>>15007939
Why ought we to affirm the will, as opposed to Life-denying ideas that hamper it? Why should I not be resentful, and can I not be both resentful and powerful?

Finally, can you furnish me with some examples of meta-narratives? I find it difficult to grasp such an abstraction

>> No.15008263

>>15008253
>Amor fati ubermensch create eternal recurrence.
How? What is the mechanism of this?

>> No.15008272

>>15008263
>What is the mechanism of this?
They create the big bang.

>> No.15008275
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15008275

>>15008272
>They create the big bang.
I think I'm going to stick to Eastern Philosophy from now on...

>> No.15008288

>>15008261
Because you are affirming the will by nature, even in denial and resentment lies a will to power, but you then exist in a contradictory tension that will likely make you miserable, and most importantly make others miserable too.

>> No.15008292

>>15008261
>Why should I not be resentful, and can I not be both resentful and powerful?
Resentment and herd mentality hinder development of ubermensch which hinders development of eternal recurrence.

>> No.15008297

>>15008275
Please do. And stay there. Eastern philsophy is for those with no youth.

>> No.15008299

>>15008292
i have never read a more retarded interpretation of eternal recurrence.

>> No.15008302

>>15008297
>for those with no youth
I'm 22

>> No.15008307

>>15006377
Agreed, I don't think OP knows what meta-narrative actually means.
>No sovereign individual references

>> No.15008312

>>15008302
I'm not following this as well as I'd like to, but I think anon is referring to youth of the spirit. Some men are dead far in advance of their bodies ceasing to function.

>> No.15008314

>>15006467
Excellent bait

>> No.15008315

>>15006311
Protip: taking Nietzsche this seriously (actually talking about the Overman unironically) is imprisoning yourself in the very narratives of others which Nietzsche wants to liberate great souls from. He would actually be sick to read people uncritically repeating his philosophy in this way.

>> No.15008318

>>15008312
I know that is what he meant, but what he said earlier is so fucking retarded that I'm not taking him seriously anymore.

>> No.15008319

>>15008299
Because every other interpreter doesn't really want it. That's why they question whether Nietzsche "really believed" in it, and retard scholars confused it as some sort of moral principle for the ubermensch, even though he talks about it endlessly in his notes, studying and refuting thermodynamicists and creating a proof for it, as well as a future civilization centered around it (all of this is in The Will to Power).

>> No.15008325
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15008325

>>15006311
>meta-narrative
>wills that are imposed upon him
I fucking hate people who read Nietzsche and don't bother to find out what the words he uses mean and where he gets them from. Will for you is a void that you fill with whatever the fuck you want it to mean. I'm so sick of this.

>> No.15008329

>>15008312
Yes, this is what I meant, only I am certain that the body of >>15008318 is functioning very poorly. I'd recommend to eat more eggs and drink more milk. Lack of vitality and good digestion is what makes one attracted to Eastern (decadent) philosophy.

>> No.15008336

>>15008315
This is Bataille's critique of Nietzsche.

>> No.15008346

>>15008329
I am actually in great health.

>> No.15008354

>>15008000
Evola sucks.

>> No.15008356

>>15008354
Why do you say that?

>> No.15008361

>>15008356
Because he's just Nietzsche but cringe.

>> No.15008370

>>15008361
He transcended Nietzsche. Now actually make an argument against his work or flutter off.

>> No.15008376

>>15008346
Your digestion says otherwise.

>> No.15008379

>>15008361
are you okay?
Evola's perennialism is at least interesting. He and Nietzsche are nothing alike.

>> No.15008385

>>15008370
>transcended Nietzsche
his work is nothing but 4chan tier whining about how society is decadent and we need to go back to the based good old days

he offers zero solutions for how to run a society or improve peoples lives

"if philosophy does not lead to human flourishing then it is useless"
not the exact quote but some greek fucker way more based than evola said it

>> No.15008386

>>15008329
Interesting take - I've recently found myself coming back to Nietzsche and trying to go beyond him within my own particular framework, after spending quite some time orbiting Eastern philosophy and life-denial. Funny thing that I have also recently rid myself of all enervating influences and discovered a sense of youth, health and sense of self that I had thought lost forever. I'll take it with a bit of salt, but thanks anon

>> No.15008428

>>15008385
>his work is nothing but 4chan tier whining about how society is decadent and we need to go back to the based good old days
You clearly never read ANYTHING he wrote.

>> No.15008457

>>15008386
>Funny thing that I have also recently rid myself of all enervating influences and discovered a sense of youth, health and sense of self that I had thought lost forever.
It really is a joy, every increase in vitality and the new boredom and desire for pain and competition that comes with it. I would say good luck, but I know best that the healthy prefer bad luck.

>> No.15008461

>>15008428
I don't think I've ever seen a proponent or spokesman for Guenon ever actually argue. Reminds me of Marxists.

>> No.15008475

>>15008461
Wasn't Guenonfag outed as being a Nicklandian or an Nrx'er?

>> No.15008487

>>15008457
I am restless for that pain but the feeling pushes me to gather yet more strength unto myself
My joy is that increase, and the promise of its sacrifice on the blessed day
I thank you for your kind words, anon c:

>> No.15008499

>>15008461
I don't have much stake in all the Guenon arguments here, [nor do I know what a pbuh is] but I have to say I have noticed this - Guenonposts do seem to have a certain reliance on his intellectual authority and erudition just not being questioned

>> No.15008504

>>15008475
Even if he was, this would be speaking in his favor (unless he just liked nick land to spam obscurantist nothing-words in group circlejerks where meaningless paragraphs spark meaningless paragraphs). At least nrx nick wants eugenics and ccru nick wants the cybergod. What does Guenon want?

>> No.15008509
File: 944 KB, 960x720, Godhead Guenon.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15008509

>>15008504
>What does Guenon want?
Unification with the Divine.

>> No.15008511

>>15008509
lol

>> No.15008522

>>15007869
>self-improvement
Spook of the lastman

>> No.15008531

>>15008522
The last man wouldn't even realize that he's degenerating and needs self improvement. The first step to unfucking yourself is admitting you have a problem. The last man would never admit he has one.

Behaviors aren't concrete, you can change them. It's not a spook.

>> No.15008532

>>15008531
The last man is a spook.

>> No.15008536

>>15008532
You can call everything a spook. It's no different than saying everything is social construct

>> No.15008540
File: 119 KB, 391x150, Capture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15008540

>>15008522
Again, struggling to follow, but this? As I understand it, self-improvement is the last man's idea of self-overbecoming - but true self-overbecoming is not the treatment and salvage of the last man in oneself, but the emphatic rejection and transcendence into something entirely other. Correct me if I'm wrong, would appreciate it

>> No.15008550

>>15008536
>It's no different than saying everything is social construct
but my friend, most things are social constructs and spooks

>> No.15008553

>>15008550
Ok so what's your point. We can't have a conversation about anything ever again now?

>> No.15008559

>>15006311
The superman is basically just a man with supreme creative power. Shit like "freeing oneself from the imposition of external wills" are simply conditions towards achieving the goal. You should go back and reread his work.

>> No.15008563

>>15008553
there is objective reality, such as the sun is hot, trees grow in the dirty, water is wet, and so on. then there are social constructs, such as gender, marriage, money, and the last man.

>> No.15008566

>>15008559
so basically the self actualized chad

>> No.15008571

>>15008563
>muh objectivity
t. never read Nietzsche

>> No.15008580

>>15006467
milquetoast brainlet liberal take

>> No.15008596

>>15008566
I think you could put it that way, in that you make yourself able to engage with objective external impositions on your own terms instead of submitting to them or just denying their existence/validity. If you want a good example of chad self-actualisation and big-balls life affirmation through a death stripped of ontological anaesthetic, read [imo proto-nietzschean] Manfred by Byron

>> No.15008637

>>15008566
Maybe? I think its instructive to compare the superman to the last man. It is obvious that Nietzsche frames their differences as one of total activity vs total passivity. This activity is either of a creative or destructive nature, creative being directed inwardly, destructive outwardly. I think where the superman diverges from the chad is that the superman channels his creative forces into uplifting himself and his bros, whereas the chad cared more for about his carnal instincts.

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