/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14964311]

What is /lit/'s opinion on the antinatalism debate?

[Anonymous No.14964316]

>>14964311
God's final revelation. FUCK BREEDERS

[Anonymous No.14964321]

>>14964311
world is overpopulated and you are not special to spread your genes

[Anonymous No.14964395]

>>14964311
antinatalism is the end game of philosophy

[Anonymous No.14964415]

>>14964316
>>14964321
>>14964395
hello pseuds

[Anonymous No.14964423]

Antinatalism is a pathetic cope for immature narcissists. Literally denying the goal of life (to propogate itself), is a shocking display of how modernity has engendered contrarianism. Antinatalism is for the midwit who has neither understanding of science or philosophy, after all most antinatalists are leftists.

[Anonymous No.14964427]

Do I believe that every person who advocates for anti-natalism is a spokesperson of the Devil? Yes.

I am old, compared to most of you. I am so lonely. Please have children, if you are able. This is no way to live. The only reason I have not offed myself is that my siblings have young children, and I want to earn as much money as possible to give them before I die.

[Anonymous No.14964474]

>>14964427
>my siblings have young children, and I want to earn as much money as possible to give them before I die.
for what purpose? lol

[Anonymous No.14964478]

>>14964474
To have a purpose and not kill myself.

[Anonymous No.14964488]

>>14964423
>Literally denying the goal of life (to propogate itself)

natural selection has no teleology. those with the drive to survive and reproduce have their gene copies show up in subsequent generations. it's a selection bias, there is no inherent drive to propagate

[Anonymous No.14964489]

>>14964427
This is a true man.

[Anonymous No.14964492]

>>14964311
The genetically fit are obliged to reproduce. Intelligence and physical characteristics are both highly inheritable. If you’re in the top quadrant for both you are cheating humanity’s future by not reproducing.

[Anonymous No.14964501]

>>14964321
i'm pretty special desu. 50mil seems like a good sustainable world population number and I would probably make the cut.

[Anonymous No.14964520]

>>14964474
It demonstrates in him the basic biological instinct of kin altruism
He does it (whether he knows it or not) to give genetics as close to his as possible the best chance to survive and propagate themselves.
>>14964427
>>14964478
Don’t worry anon, it’s a good enough purpose.
>>14964488
Selection bias is the entire process of evolution

[Anonymous No.14964530]

>>14964478
hmm ok
I don't have any purpose on my life and its ok for me, thats how it is, simply living is enough

[Anonymous No.14964531]

every anti-natalist has a moral obligation to kill themselves

[Anonymous No.14964575]

>>14964492
Antinatalists inherently cannot be in the highest fitness for intelligence

[Anonymous No.14964627]

>>14964531
I have no guilty in being born, why should I fix something I'm not guilty of?

[Anonymous No.14964632]

>>14964427
regret is here to stay you brain dead boomer.

[Anonymous No.14964701]

>>14964575
Based and true, it’s best if the generic refuse doesn’t breed

[Anonymous No.14964711]

>>14964632
>le boomer meme

You have to go back.

[Anonymous No.14964730]

>>14964711
shut the fuck up boomer

[Anonymous No.14964745]

>>14964321
I'm white, so yes, I am

[Anonymous No.14964761]

>>14964745
nope, you are not
if you are not an athlete, genius or millionaire just don't reproduce for the good of the species and your descendants

[Anonymous No.14964834]

>>14964745
Why does being white makes you special?

[Anonymous No.14964978]

>>14964834
White people are aesthetic and uncommon. Of course this is assuming he's not some MENA or asiatic larping as white.

[Anonymous No.14964987]

>>14964761
My spirit being passed on is worth more than any materialistic achievements.

[Anonymous No.14965012]

>>14964311
Why should we all feel guilty about being born? It is only specific subhuman rats that have fashioned this hell world after their own twisted souls. You know deep down that we have a duty to protect all we love against evil.
I don't believe in a god but if he is real I thank him with all my heart for putting me in a world where dirt can turn into nectar and giving me the power to drive away the cockroaches.
Why kill yourself you cuck? We can make a HEAVEN out of HELL. Nothing is set in stone:
>Junko didn't have to die.
>Sylvia didn't.
>Adam didn't.
>the 'dicking a virgin cures aids' meme doesn't have to exist
>the word 'fistula' doesn't have to be in the dictionary
>Genie learned to walk and talk in the end
>we can improve epistemology
>we can improve metaphysics
>we can improve axiology
>we can fight disease, famine, war and death

After we did all that we can move to the stars. Then we will move the stars. And remember this is only what we can do with 1000% certainty, imagine what wonders we can do that we don't know of yet.

>NOTHING. IS. SET. IN. STONE.

[Anonymous No.14965014]

>>14964311
If your genes are shit, why pass them on LMFAO

[Anonymous No.14965031]

>>14964489
Real recognize real

[Anonymous No.14965040]

>>14964987
what spirit? lol
you and your descendants are different persons with separate consciousness

[Anonymous No.14965064]

>>14964427
This is beautiful

[Anonymous No.14965091]

>>14965040
>doesn't know about genetic memory
OHNONONONONONONONO

[Anonymous No.14965134]

>>14965040
Even from a purely materialistic view, phobias being inheritable disproves the tabula rasa meme. There's plenty of evidence for those descended from pastoral groups having particular affinitys for animals as well. Entire dispositions are inheritable.

[Anonymous No.14965137]

>>14965012
>It is only specific subhuman rats that have fashioned this hell world after their own twisted souls

Cool it with the antisemetic remarks.

[Anonymous No.14965154]

>>14964978
>White people are aesthetic and uncommon
how so?

[Anonymous No.14966337]

Had always held the premillennial view as that was what I was introduced to in my early Christian years. This book was a refreshing perspective with excellent cross-walk references between NT to OT, which gave strength to the maxim that scripture interprets scripture. As my first in-depth look at amillennialism, I found Riddlebarger's book compelling. One thought occurred to me: How would those receiving Revelation from John in the first century have understood it? There could also be the tendency to perceive chapters 4 - 22 of Revelation as little more than a bolt-on, eschatological freebie provided to, but not really applicable to, first century Christians. This book dispels that erroneous notion quickly. As I pondered some of the symbolism, the thought also occurred to me that we can be so focused and preoccupied looking for a literal view of, say, the "mark of the beast," that we may miss the more subtle fulfillment by what we allow ourselves to do (right hand?) and believe (forehead?). Like the churches in Rev chapters 2 and 3, believers today are susceptible to the draw of the antichrist culture in which we live; to compromise our christian walk by embracing many views of the antichrist world. Having done so, many have become willingly "marked" inside, such that if/when a literal "mark" should come, many will find no good reason to reject it. But if the "mark" is not literal but actually only symbolic, could it be that many, through their compromise, have already willingly received it in their heart? Every generation of the church has lived in an antichrist world in one form or another - so we always need to be diligent, careful and centered on God's word. Overall, this book was a great read and I highly recommend it, especially for those who have long held other perspectives.

[Anonymous No.14966372]

>>14964311
If you believe in any intellectually tenable version of moral realism, antinatalism is essentially irrefutable.

[Anonymous No.14966483]

>>14965134
Is this an argument against reckless race mixing between two distinct ethnic groups? You have two seperate dispositions clashing with eachother?

[Anonymous No.14966529]

>>14964311
>refutes himself in his dedication

[Anonymous No.14966556]

>>14964311
(((Benatar)))

[Anonymous No.14967283]

>>14965012
This is the gayest shit I've ever read and a massive misinterpretation, Anon.

[Anonymous No.14967425]

I advocate antinatalism for everyone, but primarily low income people, Africans, Indians, most males, and everyone with a sub-130 IQ. The human race left after this will live in paradise and thus will have no need to not reproduce.

[Anonymous No.14967445]

>>14967425
>Most males
>Not females
Nice try roastie

[Anonymous No.14967450]

>>14967445
You are gay.

[Anonymous No.14967484]

>>14964427
>This is no way to live. The only reason I have not offed myself is that my siblings have young children, and I want to earn as much money as possible to give them before I die.
I'm with you. I used to be on the have-five-children train, but I gave up on that. My goal is just to make my good deal of money in my job and give it all to my siblings' children. I'll save some for myself so I can move to a retirement home when I'm elderly - I don't want to be found dead because I'm stinking up some apartment because nobody bothered to check if I'm alive. In an old people home at least I can be quickly disposed of.

[Anonymous No.14967538]

We are told that Christ on earth didn't have any son. If this Word has been given to me, and if I can accept it, I shall not produce descendants.
Antinatalism is the only way to "fulfill the foreordained number of the Saints".

[Anonymous No.14967635]

>>14967450
Cope

[Anonymous No.14968652]

>>14964423
Humans are operating by a script. It seems so terribly rigged that you have to obey unwritten rules and live your life along the lines set by said rules. Conceited people online may deny it as much as they want to, but you get depressed if you change your gender, if you become fat, if you bail out of society altogether and so on.

You are born with the burden of living by this script, else your life is unhappy. That's why many people grope their way through life and this is the only feeling they have. An ambiguous amorphous lump of flesh fumbling through life, only to eventually become lifeless.

[Anonymous No.14968773]

>>14964311
Take your SSRIs you depressive fuck

[Anonymous No.14968829]

>>14968773
yeah robot just forget realism and take the pill, welcome to 21st century.

[Anonymous No.14968906]

>>14967484
>I used to be on the have-five-children train, but I gave up on that.

Why did you give up on that anon? Surely it's not too late. Even one or two kids raised by good parents are a true gift to the world, and you seem like you have a good heart.

[Anonymous No.14968947]

>>14967425
>most males

so you are advocating for more single mothers? are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.14969487]

>>14964311
Any antinatalist that hasn’t offed themselves are insincere fags that should be disregarded

[Anonymous No.14969511]

The mature take on life for anyone with a shred of conscience is that life is full of suffering but has potential to be good and working to diminish the suffering and promote the good is obviously the thing to do.

As for antinatalists, those who say it is bad to ever be born for anyone are just as naive as those positive instagram posts about how everything is always amazing. Embarrassingly simplistic.

As for those who argue about potentially reducing birth rates for the good of humanity, they are actually facing the problem with some sort of reality and not just whining.

That's it really

[Anonymous No.14969528]

>>14969511
go back to plebbit you poor puppet.

[Anonymous No.14969562]

>>14969528
A man is not called wise because he talks and talks again; but if he is peaceful, loving and fearless then he is in truth called wise.”
― Dhammapada, The Dhammapada: The Sayings of the Buddha

[Anonymous No.14969591]

>>14969562
yeah im so much in love with my future children that i will not bring them in this world which is full of suffering, pain, disease and death

[Anonymous No.14969618]

>>14969591
if they have a detached, cowardly, learned helplessness ensconced father like you i don't disagree.

more self-fulfilling prophecy than philosophically rigorous though

[Anonymous No.14969654]

>>14969618
buddha preached celibacy my faggot

[Anonymous No.14969698]

Most people would rather be alive than dead by a large majority so on the balance of probabilities I'm comfortable that whoever I create will be grateful to me that I did, and that's all I need.

>"but if you didn't create anyone there'd be no suffering"
Suffering isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Anonymous No.14969702]

Kind of position that kills itself because the people who hold it don't reproduce.

[Anonymous No.14969711]

>>14969698
>Suffering isn't the worst thing in the world.
how so?

[Anonymous No.14969745]

>>14969711
Suffering is only the ultimate bad if the ultimate good in your life is pleasure.

You can be reductionist about it and say that achieving other goals gives you pleasure and so therefore pleasure is still the highest good in everyone's life, but that doesn't reflect how people actually behave and so I ignore that argument because it's for brainlets.

The stronger argument is that other goals are subjective and so you're subjecting someone who may not agree that there's a higher goal than pleasure to your own conception of higher goals - and if they don't agree that there's a higher goal than pleasure then they'd be an antinatalist.

But, as I said, it comes down to the balance of probabilities. Most people enjoy life, on the whole, and despite its suffering. No reason to assume anyone I create wouldn't be the same. If it turns out they don't enjoy life and suffer a lot, oh well. That's not good, but their suffering isn't worse than a world in which higher goals aren't pursued. And they can always kill themselves. If they choose not to kill themselves then, obviously, the reason why is that they themselves believe that there are worse things than their own suffering.

[Anonymous No.14969775]

>>14969745
what are these higher goals and why are they higher than pleasure or well-being, which is probably a more accurate opposite of suffering than simply pleasure?

[Anonymous No.14969782]

>>14969745
>the reason why is that they themselves believe that there are worse things than their own suffering.
like what?

[Anonymous No.14969820]

>>14969711
It's only an illusion. If only you would realize you are awareness, and not your thoughts or whatever your body feels, you would be instantly liberated.

[Anonymous No.14969882]

>>14969820
>If only you would realize you are awareness, and not your thoughts or whatever your body feels
is it possible to achieve?

[Anonymous No.14969941]

>>14969882
Absolutely. Next time you feel something, anything, ask yourself 'how do I know I am feeling this?'. After you have realized all your emotions are just bodily sensations, you can read this:

https://realization.org/p/ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita.html

[Anonymous No.14969955]

>>14964321
But poos, niggers and insectoids are? Be realistic, you dumb cunt. The only way the human race survives more than another thousand years is if the human race is all white.

[Anonymous No.14969957]

>>14969955
Have you ever experienced love?

[Anonymous No.14969965]

>im an antinatalist

[Anonymous No.14969968]

>>14964311
>debate
Where on /lit/ lmfao

[Anonymous No.14969973]

>>14969957
Yes.

[Anonymous No.14969984]

>>14969973
Something went wrong

[Anonymous No.14970014]

>>14969965
yeah man schopenhauer, buddha, emil cioran, philipp mainlander, julius bahnsen, peter wessel zapffe were just like your pic related, antinatalists owned in epic style

[Anonymous No.14970118]

>>14970014
Yes.

[Anonymous No.14970217]

1. Is Benatar’s argument for the impermissibility of procreation convincing?
David Benatar’s anti-natalist argument that procreation in all circumstances is impermissible stands as one of the most controversial views in the realm of applied ethics. This essay will argue that Benatar’s asymmetry thesis is true, but that his conclusion does not follow. In Section One, I will outline Benatar’s anti-natalist argument. In Section Two, expand upon what is often perceived as the strongest objection to Benatar made by Elizabeth Harman, arguing that his asymmetry thesis is not logically due Benatar making a fallacy of equivocation between types of good. Finally, in Section Three I will argue against this objection, demonstrating how one can both acknowledge the legitimacy of Benatar’s original asymmetry and deny his conclusion.
Section One
Before outlining Benatar’s case for the impermissibility of procreation, it’s important to clarify what Benatar is not trying to argue. By focusing on procreation specifically, Benatar is concerned with “the future life sense” (Benatar 2006: 22) – a life that is worth procreating. Therefore, arguments used in the present life sense, ones that are worth continuing, should not be applied to those concerned with the future life sense.
Benatar’s argument is as follows: there is an asymmetry of moral judgement between the existence of pain and pleasure when analysing a situation where a person does and does not exist. This asymmetry entails that existence is relatively disadvantageous to existence. To show this, we first outline the symmetrical utilitarian relationship for an existing being that,
(1) the presence of pain is bad,
and,
(2) the presence of pleasure is good,
Following this, we similarly evaluate the absence of pleasure and pain for a non-existent, yet potential person,
(3) the absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone,
yet,
(4) the absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation,

This central asymmetry is Benatar’s strongest defence in support of his conclusion. Hereafter, Benatar asserts that even the most miniscule amount of suffering in a potential life justifies the impermissibility of procreation, given that the absence of that pain, had the being not existed, would be good, and the absence of possible pleasures would not be bad, given that there would be nobody for whom this absence would be a deprivation. The total sum of values of (1) and (2) versus (3) and (4) renders the latter preferable, given that there is only a positive value while no negative one.
As (1) and (2) are uncontroversial, this section will expand further on Benatar’s arguments for (3) and (4), and most importantly how this leads to his conclusion. Bad things can only happen to those that come into existence; we can readily find support of (3)

[Anonymous No.14970234]

>>14964311
I wouldn't want to curse my children with that nose either

[Anonymous No.14970331]

>>14970217
If the absence of pain is good (for a nonexistent being lol, thus contradicting his point about the absence of pleasure), then there is an almost unfathomable amount of pain being prevented by, say, not breeding every minute and not using artificial insemination and colonization of other planets. The pain prevented will always be more than the pain "caused"

[Anonymous No.14970387]

>>14970331
being nonexistent means nothingness, no pleasure or pain.

[Anonymous No.14970710]

I don't even know man. It's just a false value statement. People obviously don't like living in a world full of trash and overpopulated squalor, but what does it matter? People could be objectively happier living in poverty shit if the culture of those people accepted it and they were raised in a specific way. Life only exists for its own purpose; you give people everything they want and it makes them unhappy, listless, and shitty. The human brain doesn't want to struggle but it doesn't want to stay at rest. Suffering doesn't even matter in the grand scheme, it could be just as viable to have everyone on Earth suffer immensely from pollution or a restrictive, evil economic system for the purpose of boosting the wealth and pleasure of a ruling elite who, through happenstance, may invest more in sciences that improve the future hundreds of years from now. There's no way to really tell. It's all pointless posturing from what you the viewer greedily want the most.

The solace should be that it is obvious no matter who you are that there will be a form of eugenic selection in the future, if be by choice or by force, that will eventually occur. Infinite expansion of population is obviously limited. Sure, it may take a massive evil war and population destruction the likes of which the world has never seen, but the relief of natural ecosystems and immediate improvement to the future success of the children and people that come after would be worth it just for those people who didn't live through the shitty apocalypse times.

[Anonymous No.14971100]

>>14969941
What about the contraindication?
That consciousness is not the omnipresent unbounded thing it appears to be to itself, but really is an artifact of attention modeling itself.
What if this experience of life really is just a big bath of heat in space warming up matter into animation in order to dissipate back into itself, and that's all life actually is, and that consciousness, because it makes you so horribly aware of the ebbs and flows of the increasingly stable and complex systems of dissipation, with such color and qualia, that it truly and deeply is MALIGNANTLY USELESS?

I suggest that infinite contraction of awareness into absolute nothingness is the true escape hatch for misery.

Why not kill yourself? Because we have been designed to continue to dissipate heat and stabilize systems that dissipate heat. With color and qualia to make it feel like a real life in a sea of beautiful consciousness, and because it's shockingly hard to successfully murder yourself on the cheap in a country where guns are expensive and work is hard to get, and everyone is taught from a young age that suicides can't get to heaven, or that suicides are mentally ill, so they try to save you.

[Anonymous No.14971106]

>>14964311
all antinatalism does is make sure that smart people don't breed

[Anonymous No.14971113]

>>14969955
Why would you want to live in a Universe where the creator makes it possible for the good to be overrun by the filthy hordes?
Why would you want to kill all the filthy hordes just to have the generation afterward all agree that we were wrong to kill the filthy hordes, having never experienced the reasons we call them "filthy hordes"?

[Anonymous No.14971155]

>>14970710
So your overarching point is that ignorance is bliss.
Thus, unconscious, that is to say, nonsentient, children would be the best off, sadness proof, apocalypse proof.
Fine. We have that already, animals and plants.

>>14971106
See above

[Anonymous No.14971177]

From the viewpoint of DNA, pain and suffering are great. It makes total sense that they were selected by evolution. They are means to keep your body away from harm, a thermometer of danger. If you stay alive longer, you have more chances of keeping your DNA going, which is what life does.
From the viewpoint of being a self with a complex consciousness, pain is not good, because when you are in pain, you don't really give a fuck what your DNA was programmed or not to do. It's just unpleasant. The fact there are plenty of ways your brain can feel pain that are not helpful to avoid danger, certainly doesn't help either.

So for instance, here in my picture, we have a natalist tied up, and nature holding a whip. Imagine the natalist says:
- Lol antinatalists are so weak haha good job natural selec-
*WHIP*
- OW hey I was talking that hurts. Anyway antinatalists are really dumb because the meaning of life is just doing nice things and you can always overcom
*WHIP*
- OW FUCK stop that shit. Can you tie me down already? I can't untie myself.
*WHIP*
- WHAT THE FUCK YOU PIECE OF SHIT WHEN I GET DOWN FROM HERE I WILL
*WHIP*
*WHIP*
*WHIP*
- OW FUCK I CAN FEEL MYSELF BLEEDING NOW PLEASE STOP
*WHIP*
*WHIP*
- PLEASE FUCK I WAS WRONG I JUST WANT TO DIE THERE IS SUFFERING THAT IS UNAVOIDABLE BY OUR OWN HANDS I JUST DIDN'T THINK IT WOULD EVER HAPPEN TO ME
*WHIP*
- PLEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAASEEE

[Anonymous No.14971436]

>>14971177
You forgot
>Remember what life was like before the whipping really picked up?
>Like when your mom was nice to you as a little boy?
>Surely your wife will be that mom and your son will be that boy and you can try to feel that way again through them!
>That's something to get through all this whipping

(The cycle continues and exponentially spreads)
>

[Anonymous No.14971694]

>>14964311
Here's my opinion on the antinatalism debate: antinatalism is retarded.

[Anonymous No.14972172]

And just like every antinatalism thread, no one was able to refute it. Isn't that amazing.

[Anonymous No.14972256]

>>14964427
Based