/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14749906]

If Christianity shaped the west, how come most intellectuals agree that the ancient greeks were the fathers of literature, science, and philosphy?

[Anonymous No.14749913]

because most intellectuals are faggots like them. Those who follow God took the degeneracy out and produced the flower that is European civilization.

[Anonymous No.14749917]

>The Bible was transmitted to Europe through Koine Greek

[Anonymous No.14749918]

>>14749913
tell that to the popes who shagged dozens of nuns and had kids from them

[Anonymous No.14749925]

>>14749918
well then à priori, those degens aren't Christians but larping as them.

[Anonymous No.14749927]

>>14749925
people working on sundays are LARPers too

[Anonymous No.14749928]

>>14749925
No TRUE Scotsman

[Anonymous No.14749949]

>>14749906
Being the father of something doesn’t mean another demography didn’t shape the mold they created.

[Anonymous No.14749956]

>>14749949
how did christian philosophers contribute to philosophy other than by circlejerking about their desert manual doctrine?

[Anonymous No.14749974]

>>14749956
Well, that’s a bit of a loaded way to say it. But I would argue that they extrapolated quite a bit in the sphere of idealism and the system itself leads quite comfortably into metaphysical musings. As well as contributions to logical analysis. I doubt that the modern empirical method without the co flux of scholasticism and new copies of Plato being flown around in late medieval. And that’s just talking about philosophy, not to mention the arts.

Imo I think Christianity has done quite a bit to bring the idea of the monad, once only a concept talked about by high philosophers, to a wider audience.

[Anonymous No.14749982]

>>14749913
Christianity is the worst kind of degeneracy. It took more than 1000 years to recover.

[Anonymous No.14750041]

>>14749928
to be fair, he was talking about the Irish, not the Scots

[Anonymous No.14750140]

The Greeks were obsessed with homosex, Christianity was necessary to keep white people in line

[Anonymous No.14750144]

European Christianity was shaped by Plato and Aristotle.

[Anonymous No.14750164]

>>14749906
Because the Greeks were the hit new shit during the enlightenment and people still haven't gotten over it.

[Simon Magus !!B6w9tJAyfF8 No.14750166]

>>14749918
Well, least they weren't fucking dudes or little boys

[Anonymous No.14750229]

>>14750166
Pretty sure you can find records of that shit too

[Anonymous No.14750266]

>>14750229
The European aristocracy was obsessed with Rome and becoming the next Rome. So they would do things to try and connect themselves to Rome. Rome was obsessed with Greece and created a story to connect themselves to Ancient Greece by claiming Aeneas as their fore bearer. European Aristocrats also claimed to be descended from wayward Trojans who were fleeing the destruction of Troy. The Brits claim to be descended from Brutus of Troy. By doing this they strengthened their claims to their thrones.

[Anonymous No.14750273]

>>14749906
For modern /lit/, I can't tell if this is bait or not.

[Anonymous No.14750276]

>>14749928
No you fucking idiot it literally goes against Christian doctrine hence a priori, if you cannot assert this then you cannot assert a single thing.

[Anonymous No.14750277]

>>14750166
>>14749918

[Anonymous No.14750311]

This entire thread has been a loaded question.

Primarily because it assumes that Christianity did not create something essential, equally, to that of the Greeks. There are so many questions, when does forming become creating, when does reforming become recreated, at what point does past relate to the given constant, when does present, how can one define value when not speaking of time?

[Anonymous No.14750315]

>>14750277
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Anonymous No.14750323]

>>14749906
Christianity is responsible for the physical and spiritual divide in the Western mind. The idea that everyone's soul is immortal and equal before God, despite there being obvious inequality in the physical world. The pope and the Kings of Europe ruled separately, one the king of spiritual matters, the other secular. You can see it kind of early when Charlemagne demanded an oath of loyalty from every single free man, recognizing each man as an individual with free will. That kind of thing had never been done before, and it was because of the supposed equality of Christian souls.

Christianity was responsible for the takeoff of the Western mind around the year 1000. Oswald Spengler also pointed to this time period for the beginning of Western (Faustian) culture, in the various religious revolutions of this period. The spiritual yearning for the infinite would be the defining feature of Western culture because of christianity.

It's a testament to how much Christianity really forms the backbone of the Western mind that Immanuel Kant, Giambattista Vico, and Blaise Pascal all independently arrived at the phenomenal and noumenal epistemological dualism. This follows the same structure of the European Christian physical/spiritual divide.

[Anonymous No.14750335]

>>14750277
Why do people blame the church for homosexual pedophilia when it is the infiltrative homosexuals at fault, and nothing to do with the church itself? They are just confirming their amoral atheist biases.

[Anonymous No.14750338]

>>14750277
it's well documnetated that there are fags and pedos within the highest position of the church but once again, à priori, not Christians. The body of the church is as corrupt, no question. But, the real Church is not of this world, as is its true Ruler.

[Anonymous No.14750348]

>>14750323
>The idea that everyone's soul is immortal and equal before God, despite there being obvious inequality in the physical world.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH, are you fucking retarded?

[Anonymous No.14750367]

what the fuck op

[Anonymous No.14750379]

>>14750323
>This follows the same structure of the European Christian physical/spiritual divide.
You're looking at it far too technically, this is only reason for spirit. epistemology is only reason for anon. It is not a spirit in itself, but may be included in one.

[Anonymous No.14750386]

>>14749906
It's simple. Christianity didn't shape the West, it nearly destroyed it. But luckily there were enough Christians that valued the West more than their Christianity.

[Anonymous No.14750397]

>>14750276
If the popes aren’t Christian just admit it’s all bullshit.

[Anonymous No.14750409]

>How come most intellectuals agree that the ancient greeks were the fathers of literature, science, and philosphy?
Maybe because the Greeks existed as a civilization before the birth of Chirst? This is such a stupid question. Of course that which is before will the origin of that which comes later.

[Anonymous No.14750411]

>>14750397
Are you legitimately fucking retarded and unable to into logic? How does a newly corrupted Church by the sheer mass of global intention, through obviously conceivable ways, in any way invalidate Christianity?

[Anonymous No.14750418]

>>14750411
If the church is more easily subverted than secular society then what is the point of it? You people are supposed to have a personal God after all.

[Anonymous No.14750419]

>>14750409
>Of course that which is before will the origin of that which comes later.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc but in this case you're right.

[Anonymous No.14750430]

>>14750348
Are you? There were what could be described as Marxists as early as the 13th century. Bonagratia of Bergamo wanted to abolish private property because he believed Jesus lived in poverty.

[Anonymous No.14750433]

>>14750338
That painting is really cool, but I would never in a million years guess that it was supposed to be depicting jacob and the angel if it wasn’t for the file name

[Anonymous No.14750443]

Because Christianity didn't influence any of the Arts in any meaningful way, and was founded on dogma and superstition rather than on pursuit of wisdom, knowledge and beauty. Thus, as the Christian dogma eroded, so did much of their contributions to culture and society - then allowing that which was based on more substantial values to retake it's place as it was rediscovered in the Renaissance and Enlightenment.

[Simon Magus !!B6w9tJAyfF8 No.14750445]

>>14750229
Well that sounds pretty gay.

[Anonymous No.14750460]

>>14750418
The church no longer exists, it was destroyed, do you not understand this? For most of time, the church has been the moral enforcer. And I'm not even saying the theo-political structure is perfect or the currently best system.

>>14750430
>There were what could be described as Marxists as early as the 13th century. Bonagratia of Bergamo wanted to abolish private property because he believed Jesus lived in poverty.
>this is apparently enough to be described as a marxist
boy.

Everyone's souls are obvious not equal before God(got you).

[Anonymous No.14750466]

>>14750323
Thanks for this post. Glad I’m not the only one who has read Vico on this board. Maybe he went a bit over my head, though, at many points. I don’t really remember any thing about epistemological dualism in his writing...hmm maybe something about the way metaphysical truths (“God’s providence”) is apparent in the myths and political constitutions of antiquity?

[Anonymous No.14750467]

>>14750443
You're saying Christianity's influence has been completely mutable on the arts? Yeesh, your the type of subhuman who should be sincerely gassed just out of stupidity.

[Anonymous No.14750478]

>>14750460
>The church no longer exists, it was destroyed
Yeshua bar-Joseph btfo

[Anonymous No.14750484]

>>14749918
I'm not a catholic, owned

[Anonymous No.14750490]

>>14750443
Christianity preserved much of the classical texts via monks copying them into manuscripts. Virgil was number one in all monasteries.
During the Renaissance, the greatest achievement of the arts was the fusion of pagan symbols and imagery with Christian messages.
The Enlightenment is completely void of sublime poetry and I think you know why. Once Reason was placed on the throne, God was removed from the equation of beauty, which begets soulless trash, much like our times of Technology.

[Anonymous No.14750522]

>>14750466
He thought that true knowledge of the natural world is impossible since God created it and therefore only God can know its true nature. Our knowledge of it is limited because we can only study it as it appears to us. "Verum ipsum factum" the truth is what is made. He thought Cartesian science and rationalism was an abomination. Humans created the civil world so we can in fact know its true nature.
A lot of this isn't actually in the New Science, it's in his book On the Ancient Wisdom of the Italians.

[Anonymous No.14750526]

>>14750335
The Church brought it upon themselves by covering up and defending the pedophiles.

[Anonymous No.14750549]

>>14749906
The difference is that of force and dominion rather than morality and virtue. There is also the aspect of the modern reaction to Christianity, the Greeks appear as less of a threat to the theological reaction.
In simple terms, the Greek myths are applicable to a much wider range of human life and thought. The stories are not limited in time and place, they hold dominion over great laws and the simplicity of life, which suggests their truth. This is particularly clear in psychology, which is the complete renunciation of the mythic form of the world - yet each school returns to myth due to the power of the stories, their hold over laws inescapable. The Greeks were at peace with human power, forces which necessitate order, and this appeals to the modern psyche.

Christianity is in many ways unworldly, even though it focuses on human laws, and its unnatural aspects can only result in disconnection, a constant questioning which results in self-exile from the simple form of modern life. Technology, for instance, appears as a satanic force, one that the Christian mind has no way of dealing with. There is also an intensification of moral forces, instrumentation, which the Christian cannot endure without renouncing his own virtues. Self-exile leads to misanthropy, and his own laws become perfidious to the world. The wars of the Churches may be seen as an increase in mourning, an attempt to maintain the Katechon rather than the cause of the downfall, of modernity.

Nietzsche's perspective is thus transitory, slave morality a much deeper law than reaction to political Christianity alone. It is certain that the peasantry came to nihilism hundreds of years before Nietzsche, particularly clear in Simplicius, which has its own parable of the madman, but also in the Carmina Burana and Bruegel paintings. One can say that such people live harmoniously with the monstrous power of the earth, and have found peace with nihilism. This sense of being transcends both secular life and Christianity, and if modernity is to end it will begin to appear from these figures. We are already seeing this in many ways.
There is also a strange type of Christianity which persists along with the nihilistic and secular form of life, which complicates the question further. In a sense, secular law is entirely in keeping with Christian eschatology and the proximity to its power has eliminated the need for the political order.

[Anonymous No.14750576]

>>14750338
Unfortunately the Christian sense of priesthood may cause such views. It attracts feminine/gay men due to its values, and the renunciation of women means that other prey will be sought out.
The extent of the scandal suggests that the problem is deep and denying it will never solve it.

[Anonymous No.14750619]

>>14750478
Maybe.

But only if you're a materialist retard.

[Anonymous No.14750748]

>>14750576
But pedophilia in pastors of other denominations is as prevalent or more. The coverups aren't uniquely Catholic either, they're seen in basically every organization of similar scale over the same time period- school districts in particular tended to shuffle teachers around to hide accusations in a very similar way.

[Anonymous No.14750846]

>>14749906
lol why are you acting like they're mutually exclusive?

[Anonymous No.14751055]

>>14750748
I think it would be neat if the church publicly admonished and stoned them on live tv.

[Anonymous No.14751096]

>>14751055
Stoned is a bit much, but I like the old-school idea of the forced monastic life of fasting, always accompanied by other friars.

[Anonymous No.14751105]

>>14751096
Also, I forgot to mention, but it's not something to make a spectacle of. Not something to deny, either, but not something to scandalize or jade others with the publicity of.

[Anonymous No.14751134]

>>14751096
>>14751105
Agree But I feel like there should be some real sobering idea of repercussion if something like this is found out.

[Anonymous No.14751159]

>>14750748
It isn't, but the point made wasn't concerned with catholicism alone.

[Anonymous No.14751277]

>>14750619
Actually only if you're a christcuck retard, since daddy Jesus who wants nothing but to love and snuggle with mankind said it would last.

[Anonymous No.14751319]

>>14749906
christianity shaped the greeks in its image

[Anonymous No.14751352]

>>14751159
Priesthood, renunciation of women, attracting the gay/feminine? That was specifically aimed at Catholicism. And what sources are there that point to anything better in Protestant churches or public schools?

[Anonymous No.14751377]

Christianity came after and had a more comprehensive reach. Classical Hellenic culture did not become dogma: inescapable lifestyle diktat. Greek philosophy told the west about life, but it didn't tell how to live it. At least not in a unified dogmatic way. It is instead a cacophony of free thought without the unifying theme and terrifying absolute authority of a monotheistic theocracy such as medieval Catholicism.

[Anonymous No.14751394]

>>14751377
Eh, I would personally say this is an uninformed opinion. There was definitely dogma in ancient greece, and most of the really big stuff happened in a 100 year gold age in Athens.

[Anonymous No.14751523]

>>14749906
>most intellectuals agree that the ancient greeks were the fathers of literature, science, and philosphy?
>most
I'm am mostly certain that you made that up. Anyways, the west isn't solely based on roman and/or greek influences. Christianity built on top of ideas from these people, and additionally, most Romans and Greeks converted to Christianity. So more like Christianity absorbed greek philosophy, science, etc.

With that being said, Christianity invented the modern university (Oxford, Uni of Paris, etc.) and the european educational system was heavily reliant on the theological reasoning for establishing said schools.

Although many like to argue
>just because Christians invented that are you implying that it is only because of their religion that those things exist
Yes, since Christians provided the foundation and a motive for an educational system, an irreligious population that held no common beliefs would probably have never developed a basic educational system. Pagans would have probably invented an educational system that was extensive, although I can't say if it would have been as effective since it is hypothetical.

Christianity also heavily influenced the healthcare system as catholic churches and monestaries started to provide health services to the poor. Even though Islam is credit with Hospitals in particular, many of the first hospitals in Muslim countries were either founded by Christians, or were a collaboration between Muslims and Christians from a variety of regions. Although that being set aside, the European healthcare system was heavily influenced by Christianity, there is a reason why the cross is a symbol for healthcare.

Christian architecture if a difficult one since it is easily arguable that there are pre-Christian greek and roman influences, although new architectural inventions like the flying buttress, or combining arches, columns, and free standing domes were unique to Christian churches. This obviously changed tons of the cityscape throughout the majority of Europe as churches became the centers of most towns/cities.

Even celebrations that have obvious pagan origins were not widespread until Catholicism incorporated it with Christian holidays. Christmas is derived from a mix of Yule and Christian influences such as Saint Nicholas, and Germanic-Pagan Christian converts continuing tree ornament decorations, along with British traditions, etc.

The influence/impact Christianity had wirh Europe, and the global impact Europe had because of Christianity is undeniable. Yes paganism and other pre-christian influenced helped Europe, although it was never to the extent of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.14751559]

>>14750443
>Because Christianity didn't influence any of the Arts in any meaningful way, and was founded on dogma and superstition rather than on pursuit of wisdom, knowledge and beauty.
Early Christianity spread through conversion before the Roman Emperor adopted it. Someone needs to study history. Before Christianity was enforced, most of the Roman Empire had already adopted it, hence why the Emperor "converted." Arguably to keep his power, and he still erected pagan temples/statues.

Yes there were Crusades such as in Nordic countries, I wouldn't count the first few crusades in the med. sea since these were in response to the Muslim Conquests. Although if you want to argue percentage wise, most European pagans converted to Christianity in mass numbers it was not just
>evil christians invaded
Even Ireland had christian settlements at the same time as nordic pagans, there is archeological proof that some missionary predicted the island being covered in lava, and by coincidence it happened due to a volcano. There are many instances of mass conversions in Europe, not just one person at a time.
>Renaissance and Enlightenment
Do you know which people translated writings to preserve greek philosophy which spurred and/or influenced the Rennaisance? Do you know who established the institutions that educated the population enough to eventually spur a stronger secular-humanistic approach? You are such a historically illiterate imbicile.

[Anonymous No.14751567]

>>14751523
Continuity between germanic pagan tree traditions and Christmas trees is sketchy, to put it generously. Hagiographies are a better source of pagan integration into early Christianity, but it didn't really survive as pagan in those cases. That's all largely incidental to your point, though.

[Anonymous No.14751576]

>>14750315
please stop

[Anonymous No.14751578]

>>14749918
chiristian nuns are hot like hijab girls

[Anonymous No.14751933]

>>14750490
>Monks scribbling autistic psalms on ancient scrolls which contained ancient texts
If anything it's because of their incompetence that we lost a huge portion of the pre-socratic philosophy

[Anonymous No.14751937]

>>14749906
The Greeks also influenced Christianity, dope.

[Anonymous No.14751949]

>>14749918
all Christians are catholic

[Anonymous No.14751954]

>>14751933
>muh scribbling of psalms
I see you're still coping with the fact that religious ascetics and scholars of Islam and Christianity are responsible for you being able to read the Greek classics today. Keep seething at people who dedicated their lives to preserving ancient works the avarage person both today and then would've left on the side of the road.

[Anonymous No.14751977]

>>14751954
They only copied what suited their dogmatic bullshit, not knowledge, it was another way to spread their slave mentality. Ask yourself why nothing remains of Epicurus.

[Anonymous No.14751997]

>>14751977
How about you get off your high horse and start evaluating things on your own, instead of relying on the social zeitgeist to tell you what to think about movements which are aged over a millenium?
Epicurus was literally preserved in the Vatican library and the works we have of him and his philosophy were mostly published straight from there when they were opened, of their own initiative over a hundred years ago now.

[Anonymous No.14752013]

>>14751997
>only a hundred of years ago
Basically when the church lost its grip on the state, yeah makes sense why they wouldn't release it until the 19th century. For more than a thousand years people have been unable to access to Epicurus, think of the damage christcucks did to western civilization.

[Anonymous No.14752030]

>>14752013
Why did I even bother.

[Anonymous No.14752106]

>>14751949
You must be over 18 to post on this site.

[JN !!vXXhA/qzhjm No.14752319]

>>14749906
It's hard as shit to start with the Greeks when your peers LITERALLY put their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalala" every time a Greek says something.

FWIW the apostle Paul made it to Athens to talk with the Epicureans and Stoics, who were intrigued by Christianity, although of course the ultra-logical Greeks rolled their eyes at the resurrection.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17%3A16-34&version=NIV

[Anonymous No.14752360]

>>14751954
You're a retard. 90% of ancient literature and 99% of Latin literature is lost. Either Christians tried to preserve them and did a piss poor job at it, probably the worst attempt in human history. Or they actively tried to destroy it and almost succeeded. How about you read the church fathers and the saints to figure out which one it is.

Christians took over the fire department, burned down a house and then saved the garage, and now they turn around saying "look how much was lost! if we were not here it would all be gone!".

Frankly if a person studies history and does not think Christianity was the worst thing to ever happened to Europe then he's straight up retarded. It's fine to think that Yeshoua bar-Joseph will lead you to heaven and Christianity is the truth but you do not have to lie about the religion being good in the here and now. Be honest.

[Anonymous No.14752382]

>>14752360
>Frankly if a person studies history and does not think Christianity was the worst thing to ever happened to Europe then he's straight up retarded.
Read more history. If you don't want to then you would fit right in with most of/his/.

[Anonymous No.14752415]

>>14752382
>t. christcuck

[Anonymous No.14752450]

>>14752360
How will we cope without all those shopping lists!

[Anonymous No.14752505]

>>14752319
>although of course the ultra-logical Greeks rolled their eyes at the resurrection.

The Roman anti-Christian writers were outright brutal in their criticism.

[Anonymous No.14752529]

>>14750411
It's literally in nigger doctrine to be a retarded faggot so a priori you are a fucking nigger. Go steal a bicycle

[Anonymous No.14752543]

>>14752360
Rome was already doomed to collapse as early as the assassination of the Gracchi brothers. Augustus simply prolonged the inevitable by installing a pseudo-fascist dictatorship to put an end to zero sum party politics and civil wars. Not to mention the Germanic barbarians would have been driven west by Attila, and Latin writing would have been lost anyway even without Christianity.

[Anonymous No.14752625]

>>14751377
No, that’s wrong. How to live the ‘good life’ was the central abiding preoccupation of all the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.14752745]

>>14752543
>ancestors are now burning in hell, rites/sacrifices that pleased the gods and was believed to be biggest reason for the success of the empire outlawed, ancient festivals that united the communist banned, shrines/temples of their ancestors that was the aesthetics pinnacle of their empire and race was torn down, the entire empire and all the local communities were now divided along religious zealotry, rampant pacifism, saints and church fathers telling people to not care about this world because theirs is of the next and that Jesus is their king but caesar.
tHe rOMAn EmpIrE wOUld hAve cOLlapsEd aNywAY cHRistIAniTy dINdu nUffiN'

[Anonymous No.14752748]

>>14752745
*communities

[Anonymous No.14752758]

>>14752745
>ancestors are now burning in hell
Thanks for showing that you know nothing about even basic Christian theology, phew, almost read the whole thing.

[Anonymous No.14752775]

>>14752758
>Christians do not believe pagans burn in hell
Not interested in your libcuck 21st century Christian theology.
>inb4 muh virtuous pagans
kill yourself

[Anonymous No.14752804]

>>14752745
If you honestly believe that Christianity was what killed the Roman Empire you are a fucking brainlet and nobody here can help you. Literally Gibbon-tier, who has been discredited a thousand times.

The fall of the Roman Empire was a combination of many inefficiencies and problems that compounded over time, Christianity was the least of these. Immigration from Germanic and Slavic tribes and changing demographics had a lot more to do with it and yet you never see people mentioning that little fact, it's always hurr durr muh Christians.

[Anonymous No.14752805]

>>14752775
>Not interested
I'm sure you're not interested in anything Christian because you've already made up my mind about it but still.
The 'fate of the unlearned' was already tackled in the 1st century, the Church in accordance with the Bible generally looked favourably at once's ancestors who never received the Word, and "they're all burning in Hell lol" was generally disregarded both by the masses and the Church as a legitimate teaching long before Christianity was in any way a significant force in Rome. If you know this then what you're saying makes no sense, why would you lie about something being a problem that was resolved centuries before Christianity became a major force? And if you don't know this then why pretend you do know it?

[Anonymous No.14752822]

>>14750335
>and nothing to do with the church itself
Yes, of course, it has nothing to do with appointing old, frail men, who have lived the majority of their lives with their noses in an old, outdated book, which demands they don't relish in anything physical beyond "necessity," and which teaches them to view children as pure and good, and adulthood a sin, in positions of massive social power, where they frequently get access to spending time with very equally closeted children totally alone.

[Anonymous No.14752841]

>>14752804
>The fall of the Roman Empire was a combination of many inefficiencies and problems that compounded over time
correct.
>Christianity was the least of these
wrong.
>>14752805
Why would you make up such lies on the internet? What you're proposing is not even agreed upon today by the Church.

The average Christian certainly thought that the unconverted would burn in hell. Especially the learned who knew that according to Christian doctrine everyone is born with an innate knowledge of God and his laws and therefore going against this knowledge is a choice and a grave sin, especially idolatry.

This is why it's so pointless to talk to Christians, for a Christian subversion comes as natural as breathing comes to a normal person. Although mockery is still fun.

[Anonymous No.14752849]

>>14752415
>t. /his/ immagrent

I know you people don’t actually read history and instead get your info off of YouTube videos, but I believe one day you will grow up.

[Anonymous No.14752875]

>>14749925
>à priori
>à
Latin has no accent marks you fucking pseud

[Anonymous No.14752896]

>>14752841
>What you're proposing is not even agreed upon today by the Church.
Oh so this is not good enough because there isn't a 100% clear consensus among all churches today? But "ancestors are now burning in hell" is wholly true somehow, despite you yourself now saying that it's not something that's agreed upon even today, much less back then? Convenient.
>The average Christian certainly thought that the unconverted would burn in hell.
What's your source, are you the avarage Roman Christian between the 1st and 5th centuries or have you spoken to one?
>Especially the learned
The learned people like the highest form of authorities on Christian teachings, the Church Fathers like Justin Martyr and Athanasius who advocated the exact opposite of what you're saying? Those learned people who lived and defined central teachings centuries before Constantine was even born? I don't think they support your side of the argument.
This is why it's pointless to talk to you, you bend the truth as it suits you and you're convinced of your position as truthful and objectively right despite the fact that you clearly have a surface level knowledge of the topic, no doubt obtained via the social zeitgeist since the exact same foolishness has been parroted around for who knows how long.

[Anonymous No.14752900]

>>14752745
>rites/sacrifices that pleased the gods and was believed to be biggest reason for the success of the empire outlawed
Evola cringelord detected

[JN !!vXXhA/qzhjm No.14753611]

>>14752505
>no names, links or quotes

Guess I'll take your word for it LOL

[Anonymous No.14754626]

>>14749906
>the ancient greeks were the fathers of literature, science, and philosphy

They were also the fathers of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.14754708]

Define "The West"
After Constantine, Christianity became the fundamental basis of unity in Europe, basically making Christianity the structure of the post Roman "West"

[Anonymous No.14754715]

The Greeks created Western civilization, but the Christians heightened it.

[Anonymous No.14754722]

>>14749906
How come there can't be many shapers? Without Christianity, how much would we know about the Greeks? Roman collapse could have been as severe as the previous civilizations'; and we'd be quite ignorant about it all.
Rome didn't help much, with such blatant revisionism and writing the Gauls and Celtics from history.

[Anonymous No.14754728]

>>14750323
>obvious inequality in the physical world.
All is cope; equality is permanent and unalterable.

[Anonymous No.14754770]

>>14754626
Chesterton was a retard. Or just evil.

[Anonymous No.14754786]

>>14754770
Why? Nothing in that pic is controversial.

[Anonymous No.14754796]

>>14754786
Fuck off christcuck.

[Anonymous No.14754798]

>>14754796
What? why do you believe I'm a Christian?

[DoctorGreen !DRgReeNusk No.14754801]

>Christians and Greeks shaped the west
Damn. No wonder the west looks like a Turd

[Anonymous No.14755606]

>>14749906
Because they did it first. They didn't have any innate superiority, they simply dipped their toes in these worlds of literature, science, and philosophy and formed the "foundations." Of course, foundations are no house, as you surely know

[Anonymous No.14755663]

>>14750338
huge fucking cope lmao

[Anonymous No.14755750]

>>14752900
>calling the Romans Evola cringelords
I think I've just detected a christcuck!

[Anonymous No.14755772]

>>14752849
I've read more history than you sonny boy.
Maybe stop reading church propaganda. Christianity destroyed Europe and there is no getting away from that. It destroyed the art, history and cultures of Europe and replaced them with going to church once a week and slave morality.

[Anonymous No.14755794]

>>14755772
Byzantium was the absolute height of civilization. Keep coping.

[Anonymous No.14755859]

>>14755772
Pretty sure the governing philosophies of Rome prior to Christianity were also "slave morality" and "life denying"
You autistic Neetch tards fail to realize the extent of his criticism and think it applies only to Christianity

[Anonymous No.14755978]

>>14751523
>Christmas is derived from a mix of Yule and Christian influences such as Saint Nicholas, and Germanic-Pagan Christian converts continuing tree ornament decorations, along with British traditions, etc.
Christmas tree first shows up in the 1500. You need to show continuous tradition from paganism that died out 1000 year earlier to that time

[Anonymous No.14755994]

>>14755859
This. It's a pattern of an exhausted culture.

[Anonymous No.14756157]

I'm not going to read all this crap but if nobody gave you the easy answer yet: Christianity became a major thing through Rome, which relied heavily on Greek culture, and integrated Greek philosophy into the core conceptions of the religion.

[Anonymous No.14756170]

>>14749906
>If Christianity shaped the west, how come most intellectuals agree that the ancient greeks were the fathers of literature, science, and philosphy?
Are you insinuating that intellectuals are insinuating that Christianity didn't shape the West, or is are you asking this in good faith? If it's the former, you're retarded. If it's latter, then the answer is: because the Greek worldview wasn't sufficiently sufficient.

[Anonymous No.14756248]

>>14756170
You are confused. The Greek worldview is more than sufficient. Christianity only wins historically, not theologically, and certainly not philosophically.
The Good does not always win. This should be more than clear given the state of the world.

[Anonymous No.14756499]

>>14755994
Do you think there's a way to rejuvenate a culture?

[Anonymous No.14756503]

>>14756499
Flood it with chinks, muslims, and trannies and make anime bad

Eventually something's gotta give

[Anonymous No.14756623]

It's pretty simple lads, Jesus was not god, Mary wasn't a virgin, Jesus wasn't resurrected, the whole thing is made up. Simple as. Christianity is simply not true. There probably really was a jew named Jesus who got uppity and who was put down by his fellow jews but all the other stuff about worshiping him as god and everyone on earth getting to be in this convenant with god is simply false.

[Anonymous No.14756667]

>>14756623
Retard

[Anonymous No.14756752]

>Modern liberal values are actually Christian values, why don't you find your own values instead of stealing from us libtards
>Modern liberal values have no positive content of their own, they are just a perverse tendency to oppose the natural order of things
Did he wanted to have his pie and eat it too?

[Anonymous No.14756756]

>>14756667
Name one thing he got wrong

[Anonymous No.14756807]

>>14756623
>It's pretty simple lads, Jesus was not god, Mary wasn't a virgin, Jesus wasn't resurrected, the whole thing is made up. Simple as. Christianity is simply not true. There probably really was a jew named Jesus who got uppity and who was put down by his fellow jews but all the other stuff about worshiping him as god and everyone on earth getting to be in this convenant with god is simply false.

[Anonymous No.14756829]

>>14756623
t. Dysexecutive

[Anonymous No.14757981]

>>14755794
Byzantium was absolute shit. An empire in near constant decline. Only surviving because it happened to get the eastern provinces and therefore all the wealth which it was able to pay off all the migrating tribes with. A sorry Webster excuse of it's supposed Roman/Hellenic heritage.
>>14755859
Don't think you know what slave morality means. It certainly isn't Roman paganism.

[Anonymous No.14758654]

>>14757981
>It certainly isn't Roman paganism.
What do you think Roman paganism was? You think everyone was in a dionysian cult?
Nonsense. Romans at the time were either Stoic or Epicurean, and traditional pagans were viewed as plebian.