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/lit/ - Literature

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14738495 No.14738495 [Reply] [Original]

>beyond the zero
>in the zone
>the counterforce
what did he mean by these titles?

>> No.14738977

>>14738495
Off the top of my pseudo-head Pynchon is supplying his boys with a good time. Beyond the zero calls to all mathemeticians or anyone who's had fun with math up until the seventh grade and even the rest of us who've talked about 1s and 0s as jokes. In the zone--this is more obviously good because of the idiom. I tried a quick search and couldn't find an obvious origin, so that's points for Pynchon. The counterforce--Not the force but the counterforce.

>> No.14738984

>>14738495
... really? Have you read the book yet? Beyond the Zero is a reference to the ultra paridoxical phase of pavlovian conditioning, as well as used as a metaphor throughout that section. In the Zone is literally about being in the Zone, and The Counterforce is referring to the counterforce attempting to fight back against Them.

>> No.14739054

>>14738984
>Have you read the book yet?
unironically no

>> No.14739078

>>14738984
You mean (((them)))?

>> No.14739097

>>14739078
Why dont you read the book to find out

>> No.14739104

>>14738495
A better question is what he meant by the epigraphs.
>"What?" - Richard M. Nixon

>> No.14739352

>>14738495
>the counterforce

reference to the Nasuverse, read FSN

>> No.14739464

>>14739104
Apparently, the original epigram on the page as it appeared in the galleys was supposed to be a Joni Mitchell song, but Pynchon switched it out because the publisher couldn't secure the rights and because Nixon was all over the headlines at the time.
>She has brought them to her senses,
>They have laughed inside her laughter;
>Now, she rallies her defenses
>For she fears that no one will ask her
>For eternity
>And she’s so busy being free
Also, the last section was originally called Mindless Pleasures

>> No.14739590

>>14738984
this. its literally spelled put in the book if you retards stop shit posting and actually read

>> No.14740194

>>14738984
>Beyond the Zero is a reference to the ultra paridoxical phase of pavlovian conditioning
Can you elaborate on this pls

>> No.14740198

>>14738984
>tfw you're in the zone

>> No.14740211

>>14739352
based weeb

>> No.14741048

>>14740194
Come on man read the book. It’s spelled out in like the first hundred pages by Pointsman

>> No.14741145

>>14738495
he played Half-Life back in '98 and really liked the chapter names (Unforeseen Vonsequences, Apprehension, On A Rail, etc), so he went for the same vibe.
>b-but it was written decades earlier
you really think Pynch hasn't mastered retrocausality by now? Plus, Laidlaw is leagues above him.

>> No.14741163

>>14739464
>Also, the last section was originally called Mindless Pleasures
Source for this? I know the whole novel was under the working title of Mindless Pleasures before it was published from the Pynchon wiki, but I haven't heard about the last section being named that way by itself.

>> No.14741269

>>14738495
Beyond the Zero possible references:
>ultra-paradoxical phase of Pavolvian conditioning
>the spiritual realm, if we take '0' to refer to death, nothingness... a common theme in part 1 especially with White Visitation
>breaking, or attempting to break, the cycle of reincarnation and the cycle of the novel
>as "beyond" could simultaneously refer to both positive and negative "beyonds", it reflects common theme in GR of opposites of binaries being interrelated/reversed/deconstructed
>lack of total extinction/annihilation
But zero/circles by themselves have loads of other connotations:
>Ouroboros/Benzene molecules
>Anuses (and various other orfices)
>the letter O itself - the Other, etc.
>Preterition
>00000 rocket
>The Earth itself (and the nature of centripetal/gravitational forces)
>The Fool Card, 0 in the Tarot Deck [side note - wikipedia states that it can also be 22, and therefore it would be both the Alpha and the Omega and the Major Arcana, a potential "linking" of the circle so that the series continues on indefinitely - as a circle? This is stretching it a bit though.]
Anything I've missed?

>> No.14741861

Where was the 0000 headed? Did they aim it at the true north?
Still not entirely sure what happened to Mexico and Bodine at the dinner party. It appears at first as if Roger is going to be killed, then hilarity ensues?

>> No.14741893

>>14741861
>Where was the 0000 headed? Did they aim it at the true north?
I believe it's fundamentally impossible, or not even necessary, to know where the 00000 was headed. Possibly at the Orpheus Theatre, into the future, somehow, but personally I don't think it matters... What are your reasons for thinking that it was true north, though?
>It appears at first as if Roger is going to be killed, then hilarity ensues?
If ever you feel you've been goofed, then it was probably the tactical irrationality of The Counterforce...

>> No.14742092

>>14741145
>retrocausality
Is Pynchon(pbuh) a guenonian? Based if true.

>> No.14742125

>>14741893
The counterforce discusses the flight path of the 0000 at the gross suckling. They draw out all the vectors of the known flightpaths.
Why'd Gottfried have to be sacrificed though?

>> No.14742133

Post your favourite part of the book

Mine is where pynchon describes the concept of absolute silence, the eclipse of the suns roar.
If anyone has the page number for that, I'd be much obliged

>> No.14742178

>>14742133
toilet boat xD

>> No.14742210
File: 357 KB, 1650x2538, 81Vxa7Ta++L.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14742210

any /sci/fag wants to explain the deal with vectorfags and quaternionfags in this?

>> No.14742347

>>14742125
>>14742125
>The counterforce discusses the flight path of the 0000 at the gross suckling.
Ah, that is very cool! And another thing to add to the list of 0 connotations (>>14741269): the bearing of 000° being true North!
>Why'd Gottfried have to be sacrificed though?
Yeah obviously there are loads of possible answers, so I have no idea for sure. It is possible that Gottfried is not necessarily sacrificed but saved: either the rocket falls back to the Earth or escapes the cycle to the Moon. It's possible also that death is the salvation, the Preterite remain those who are "passed over" by the rocket... With the more likely theory that Gottfried was actually destroyed, then the whole thing is a part of Blicero's anal-sadistic game. Why Gottfried specifically? His name seems important: God's peace, so imbuing the rocket with the power of God/salvation. He's also the mirror-version of Enzian, who is connected with the 00001 rocket, if that means anything. Also the sexually submissive Other generally don't tend to get good endings in the novel... If you have any other ideas then please post.

>> No.14742412

>>14742347
Yeah the Counterforce meeting determined tue 00000 was launched directly north by charting all the directions of all the rockets and assuming they'd be a perfectly cancelled mandela with the addition of the 00000, and one bearing of true north cancelled it perfectly.
A question that seems to have significantly less material to answer is the 00001. Where the hell is Enzian sending that, and what are the Hereros putting on it?

>> No.14743472

>>14742210
bump

>> No.14743542

getting erections that dictate where the bombs are going to fall

>> No.14743545

>>14742133
The ending of part 1 was heartbreaking in a way that I think predicted the eventual breakdown of the characters interactions and narrative. Roger and Jessica being the most emotional part of the story and how they become gradually disconnected from each other and also losing touch with what is and isn't reality.

>> No.14743580

>>14738495

Who the fuck is this Chuck E. Cheese looking motherfucker? I refuse to believe Thomas Pynchon looks like this.

>> No.14743582

>>14738495
It's fairly obvious if you've read the book

>> No.14743596

>>14742133
Poekler's story and the bit with the disgusting English candy

>> No.14743631

>>14743580
being 82, he doesn't

>> No.14743667

Why do you find GR good? I'ḿ in the Zone chapter and all I want is this book ends.

>> No.14743801

>>14742133
Enzen methed out riding his motorcycle through the blown up factories for sure, I was so disoriented by that point in the novel but suddenly stumbled upon a moment of clarity in that section

>> No.14743864

>>14742210
A quaternion is a vector which has both real and imaginary components. You see, imaginary numbers exist on an axis perpendicular to the spatial ones we know and love (x,y,z). Also, some physicists treat time as a 4th dimension and use quaternions for that.

The significance in AtD is that all of our reality has real and imaginary aspects. You can interpret this any number of ways. The most accurate might be the 'ol history-eats-myth-eats-history pattern, that there is an enormous imaginary aspect built into our understanding of society, the past, and uh, everything.

Or, you could interpret as a kind of multiverse theory, which is referenced in the end when someone (I forget who) is talking about the Hindu notions of infinite realities being tangent to this one. The idea being that what's real and imaginary to us would be reversed for someone at a different reference point, and this person may be real, but just living in some reality where a different decision was made.

Or, it could be a kind of testament to the importance of fiction and storytelling in helping us to explore the imaginary dimension of our own reality, as this exploration may result in identifying real issues and finding real, physical solutions.

>> No.14743924

>>14742133
The part where Roger whips out his dick and just pisses all over Pointsman's stupid fucking face put a big smile on my face.

>> No.14743968

>>14743801
Similar with Lyle Bland's chapter. I also like the Candy Drill, Roger and Jessica in the church and that one early chapter that starts out with a specific time in some British military timezone, which I think is also the chapter that goes into Slothrop's family history.

>> No.14744040

>>14743968
could you remind me of the Lyle Bland chapter?

>> No.14744136

>>14742412
i thought each successive rocket would be a suiciding Zone-Herero, 00001 for Enzian then 00002 and so on, also 00000 falls in London on a movie theatre Dec. 14 '44, a week before the book begins ("it has happened before but there is nothing to compare it to now") it's the deadliest real life V2 attack of the war, the '72 rocket is a nuke, "Now everybody--" is total nuclear holocaust

>> No.14744145

This book is a mess. /lit/ has a shit taste.

>> No.14744223

>>14743864
so the vectorfags are repressing imagination?

>> No.14744437

>>14742133
The part with the mandrake

>> No.14744460

>>14741861
Mt. Eru

>> No.14745220

>>14744136
But they put all of their efforts into barely scrounging together the parts for the 00001, and it's going to be significantly more difficult to ever get another. That doesn't make much sense.
The 00000 also can't have landed in London, it was launched due north from Germany.

>> No.14746625

>>14744145
no u

>> No.14747246

>>14743864
Based Pynchon explaining his own novel

>> No.14747268

>>14742133
Lightbulb schizoposting

>> No.14747573

>>14741048
>dude just reread 100 pages of this famously dense and difficult book

>> No.14747581

>>14738495
what he meant to say was "hurr durr I'm the inbred progeny of the old Pyncheon witch family of Salem"

>> No.14747601

>>14747573
>>lol actually reading books you post about

>> No.14747683

>>14741269
you beast

>> No.14747694

>>14742133
slothrop on the Anubis; bodine and roger at the dinner party.

>> No.14747807

>>14747246
Don't flatter me. I only came here to research a project a decade ago, turns out they're not joking when they tell you you'll be here forever.

>> No.14748698

>>14742133
The ending with Gottfried being fired inside the 00000 and the movie theater disintegrating. Also everything about Franz Pökler

>> No.14748911

>>14748698
Tfw you will never rape your daughters imposter

>> No.14748923

>>14743801
He was such a great character, especially when he realises he's been fucked over by the anti-natalist subfaction at the end.
Best part with him was how insignificant his meeting with tchitcherine was.

>> No.14748939

>>14744040
He's a business magnate, helps fix the pinball machines for the free-masons. Becomes part of their group and learns to astrally project. Bankrolls the experiments done to slothrop when he was a kid.
I'm too much of a brainlet to see how he ties into the story completely though, he seems rather distant to the rest of the cast

>> No.14748947

>>14747268
How about kazoo shitposting?
Love the part when smuggler guy (forgot his name) is smoking hash out of a kazoo while Byron the bulb is chilling in his pocket

>> No.14748955

>>14747694
I still don't really get what happened to Bianca on the Anubis. Who killed her?

>> No.14748976

>>14748947
I guess that too

>> No.14749164

>>14748955
This, what the FUCK happened in that basement. Seemed like there were like a dozen men and four spirits down there

>> No.14750135

>>14747573
Beyond the zero is one of the easy things to pick up on the first read. If you didn't get it you're ngmi

>> No.14750152

>>14742133
That part is among my favorites, but I think Tchitcherine's backstory in Central Asia was the best for me. His introductory page describing all his creaking metal parts was fantastic.
Other top-tier scenes: Slothrop's rescue mission for Der Springer from the pirate ship carting a whole variety show, Slothrop's brief forray into being a proto-hippie and living naked in the wilderness, Mexico and Pirate and Bodine teaming up at the end

>> No.14750190

>>14742133
It's page 708 in the Frank Miller cover edition.

Not my favorite part, but my favorite mental image is of Slothrop and the pig roaming the German countryside. If I were an artist I'd paint that scene.

>> No.14751801

>>14743545
>Oh, Jess. Jessica. Don't leave me

>> No.14751803

>>14742133
enzian and tchitcherine reunion

>> No.14751934

>>14748923
>insignificant
It just didnt happened.

>> No.14752100

>>14751934
It did. In the most anti-climactic way possible. Which was exactly the point

>> No.14752112

>>14750190
Unfortunately I have the vintage classics edition, couldn't find it.
Did find something else though. There's this bit where Slothrop and the japaneseguy, ensign Murtituri (or whatever), are discussing Bianca.
He mentions he justs wants to go home to his wife and kids, who live in this beautiful city called Hiroshima...

>> No.14752140
File: 844 KB, 1200x603, the zone.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14752140

>>14738984
>In the Zone is literally about being in the Zone

>> No.14752183

>>14752140
Diet Coke is for women and betas, so that first one is a good match
Why does the second one have a glass bottle of Coke Zero? Is she rich?
Third guy is hot
I don’t believe a black person has ever touched a bottle of Coke Life. It is only for middle-class moms who buy stuff gluten-free stuff even if they’re not allergic to gluten
The last girl is the only one to have an appropriate number of exclamation marks for the caffeine high of Coke

>> No.14752191
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14752191

>>14752183
What did you say about diet coke, bitch?

>> No.14753265
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14753265

>>14748923

Man that part was just great. All this build up throughout the novel about the eventual confrontation between Enzian and Tchitcherine and then they find each other, both of them completely oblivious, even politely gesturing to each other (if I remember correctly). One of my favorite anti-climaxes

>> No.14754149

>>14752112
Morituri. Its latin, it means "someone who is going to die".

>> No.14754510

>>14754149
He sure had shit parents

>> No.14754685

Why was he such a cuck in his Watts essay
uh muh poor niggers bohoooo

>> No.14754691

>>14754685
go back

>> No.14754730

>>14747573
Why do people expect to be able to understand everything that's going on on first read? Part of the point of the book is to be confused.

>> No.14754734

>>14749164
He didn't get his papers :/

>> No.14754835

>>14747807
>subtle Bleeding Edge allusion
Extremely based. The Pynch lives.

>> No.14755542

>>14754835
>subtle

>> No.14756073

>>14748955
society

>> No.14756371

>>14742133
My favorite part has to be Mexico’s catharsis near the end of the book. Gut-bustingly funny, and I like the guy so much.
I’d say a close second (not sure why) would be a tie between the bit where Pointsman’s motivations are fleshed out (Minotaur metaphor), and Pokler’s story overall.
Incredible fucking book.

>> No.14756378

>>14743596
Fuck, forgot about that! The line about being smacked in the face by an Alp was hilarious. Singular Alp.

>> No.14757397

>>14742133
When Slothrop has taken on the identity of Rocketman and Polker and his "daughter"

>> No.14758644

>>14742133
i remember liking the part with banana sandwiches
and running through the hotel naked was fun

>> No.14759082

>Nancy, she was six, we went behind a wall near a crater full of ruins, she rubbed and rubbed against me, her milky little thighs reaching in and out of my own, her eyes were closed, her fair little nostrils moved upward, backward forever, the slope of debris rushed down, steeply, just beside us, we teetered at the edge, on and on, exquisitely.

>> No.14760525

>>14758644
>banana sandwiches
gonna go make one right now