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14729148 No.14729148 [Reply] [Original]

Been reading Anti-Oedipus lately and came across the distinction between ground "revolutionay" fantasy and "individualist" fantasy:

"The two kinds of fantasy, or rather the two
regimes, are therefore distinguished according to whether the social production of
"goods" imposes its rule on desire through the intermediary of an ego whose
fictional unity is guaranteed by the goods themselves, or whether the
desiring-production of affects imposes its rule on institutions whose elements are
no longer anything but drives."

And this got me wondering on the fuck does one know his desire is appealing to an ego and not his desiring-machines? Given that this is supposed to appeal to marxist like ideals i still dont know how it stops the justification of certain actions. I can see myself as a "partial-object" and have desire to exploit other partial-object/subject machines or some notion of power without thinking of myself as a unified subject seperate from other machines.
I think the distinction that Michel Foucault makes on normalising power and repressive power and how they affect the identity of the person is much more clean and accurate despite not being made to appeal to marxist ideals. Instead of this assumption that there are some basic "true-self" desires that arent compatible with this "inner fascist" lifestyle.

Am i getting this right? Can somone who has read this book check with me if im getting full of bullshit?

>> No.14729295
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>the fuck does one know his desire is appealing to an ego and not his desiring-machines?
That's what the entire book is about, essentially. It is a geneaology of how desire has been repressed historically. The Freudian Ego is just another in a long line of diverted recordings of history. The first part of the passage describes commodity fetishism, basically. The self as built by wearing Vans and Gucci or some shit. The other type of production is that which affords lines of flight. Which have the potential to deterritorialize these historic diverted recordings, to reveal a potential for liberty.
I'd also like to point out that there is no true-self in Deleuze and Guttari. A self is a bit like an orange peel or the cell wall that seperates it from the outside world. It is _produced_ as a tool. [signifier referring to what is sitting in your chair] are a multiplicity. Many strands weaved together that _produces_ a unity.

>> No.14729344

Honestly, D&G (D especially) is kinda politically incoherent.

>> No.14729387

Thanks for the reply
>I'd also like to point out that there is no true-self in Deleuze and Guttari. A self is a bit like an orange peel or the cell wall that seperates it from the outside world. It is _produced_ as a tool. [signifier referring to what is sitting in your chair] are a multiplicity. Many strands weaved together that _produces_ a unity.

Yeah i understand that but i had the feeling they are trying to do something similar of the "true self" myth but with repression by the ego and "true" desiring production.
But i still dont know how this is supposed to stop "fascism" when desiring production could very well be about new forms of exploitation of others and making new notions of power without thinkin of oneself as a seperate machine from the others. It just changes the way you speak and justify yourself.

>> No.14729435

Such is the problem with psychedelic enlightenment tio -- you can lose your ego and still be an asshole

>> No.14729442
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now, they use fascism in a fairly idiosyncratic way (although I think they best grasp fascism as an ideology). think nietzsche here. one needs to invent his own ideas and concepts, invent his own ethics that suit the world around them. D&G try to make an argument that the best way to do that is to head for the outside. what exactly does this mean? it's basically the line from focault about man being just sea-foam, that will eventually fade away. the idealized form of this escape is the body without organs. it contains in it no resistance. desire flows through it without inhibition. it does not try to divert or reinterpret the flows. it is similar to taoist principles. knowing this, fascism is the other end of the spectrum. the reinterpretation and diversion of all flows. it is a black hole.
in some sense, you are right.
>what is to stop me from using these concepts for evil purposes?
nothing. absolutely nothing. see Land for that (no, it's not that simple, but good enough for this conversation). focault could also be used as a manual for building a fascist state. but the capitalism and schizophrenia series do not treat you like a baby. it gives you the tools to make more and better tools, and then hopes you're not one of the """"bad guys""""".

>> No.14729525

Alright, thanks for explanation guys.
Im still in the begining of the book but from the reading i had of the introduction it seemed like they were going to build and see the world in a way that would make "inner-fascism" actions invalid or impossible to concieve wihtout the existence of some mythical form of ego.

>> No.14729726

I can see a Deleuzean Kantian reading wherein the perspective shift involves an ethical metanoia that makes fascism impossible. Idk... that seems a bit mystic tho.

>> No.14729763

I see fascism as more of a Bacchanal blood orgy than a form of Protestant asceticism... how does my conception gel with D&G's idea of it?

>> No.14729814

I think they see more in the way of Protestant asceticism than some crazy blood orgy for sure.

>> No.14729835

Bataillean anus IS objet petit a

>> No.14729964

I've been thinking about what to read next after anti-Oedipus and im not sure i want to go to thousand plateaus despite bringing forward new concepts since i've heard a lot of people say that it has a lot of things that are very questionable and seem outdated (if you ask me which ones i will get in trouble).

But i was thinking of finding a more contemporary take on Deleuzian ideas and sort out which ones are more valid or not and why. I heard Nick Land has good takes on Deleuze and tries to take which ideas are still acceptable and what not, but i dont think Nick Land is that much of a reliable source since he seems like a pretty wild guy that is always changing his attitude and views. idk really.

>> No.14729971

Land's essay Making It with Death is good on this.

>> No.14730037

The ascetism and decadence go hand in hand, but only for the elite...
ATP is worth reading after AO, IMO. Not too many Deleuzeans now. Except Hardt and Negri. But they are not exciting. Have heard good things about Delanda. Some of his lectures from egs are on youtube. Have A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History on my to-read list. Fanged Noumena is good but everything after from him and accelerationist twitter in general is gay and cancerous. #accelerate reader ain't bad tho. And if you like FN then get CCRU writings tio. Negarestani is fun as well. Cyclonopedia is weird and I&S is more conventional. Spec real seems memey but I like Melliseaux at least. My personal favorite Deleuze is Logic of Sense -- more conventionally philosophical than Capitalism and Schizophrenia but still engages with psychology and psychoanalysis and requires none of the autistic maths of Difference and Repetition. Chaosmosis is pretty interesting from Guatarri if you just want antipsychiatry. Dark Deleuze is a good secondary work on his politics and how they have been reteritorrialized by the new age.

>> No.14730054

I'd say Laruelle is Deleuzean in spirit and goes beyond him. Read From Decision to Heresy

>> No.14730195

Thank you for the recommendations, I think i will get into ATP but will probably stick to readin essays on it rather the whole book myself (still considering), I already have a copy of Fanged Noumena but i stopped a few chapters away since Difference and Repetition wasnt enough to get the whole story of what Nick Land talks about. I've seen a interview on the author of Dark Deleuze and his critique of the way Deleuze has been interpreted seems pretty interesting to what i was looking for. But before that i will probably give a look at Delanda and his book since the author of Dark Deleuze seems to take a lot of his interpretations and dilemas from there.

>> No.14730261

Massumi's User Guide is good for secondary lit on c&s. Check out LoS tho! Srsly brah

WiP? Is also a good easy way to get into the stuff

>> No.14730310
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Just leaving this here.

>> No.14730319

If trad is so great then why are we pomo?

>> No.14730323
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>Those who might be tempted to give way to despair should realize that nothing accomplished in this order can ever be lost, that confusion, error and darkness can win the day only apparently and in a purely ephemeral way, that all partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the greater equilibrium of the whole, and that nothing can ultimately prevail against the power of truth.

>> No.14730333

Just cause you're a sandnigger and/or pooinloo doesn't mean the enlightened didn't btfo your superstitious cult religions as well as it did christianity and platonism. Philosophy is not self-help. It's a progressive science. Guenon is a self-help author.

>> No.14730368
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>progressive science

>> No.14730387

>hurr durr science bad
Don't hurt yourself with those edges, retard

>> No.14730441
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>> No.14730493
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>tfw you realize all of this is the absolute truth

>> No.14730506

Alien lookin ass bitch

>> No.14730579

I don't care about Guenon but this a very good observation.
Because you are retarded. We live in an age of decline, in the sophist cycle. The next cycle will regard you just as post-Socratic philosophers regarded the sophists.

>> No.14730581
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you're more or less right, although it's a pretty flexible concept, as most concepts are in C&S.
fuck academic niggers trying to bend D&G. I have yet to read a good secondary academic Deleuze book (with the exception of Deleuze and Sorcery, and that is more of an esoteric text). ATP is Deleuze's masterpiece. It is literally shitposting for like 600 pages. Deleuze always admired the authors who went against the grain of the consensus (Hume, Nietzsche, Spinoza, Bergson), who conjured up new and interesting possibilities. In that sense, Land is absolutely the successor of Deleuze. Stop getting your opinion from shitposts and such, and read Land yourself.
http://www.xenosystems.net/ is an excellent place to start, if you want less of an insane rant.

>> No.14730600
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forgot the image for you. it's both.

>> No.14730771

Do not fall for the Delanda shilling. Philosophy and Simulation proves his understanding of Deleuze and technology are on par with middle schoolers

>> No.14730788

>Deleuze and Sorcery
who's that by? I can't find anything about it

>> No.14730837

Anyone who uses words like "bending" and "sorcery" in regards to philosophy is immediately a pseud, just ignore them.

>> No.14730855

Rent free

>> No.14730862

>believes in literal cycles of history

>> No.14730866

Think he means Hermetic Deleuze

>> No.14730872

Bummer. Ya. Figures. He seems kinda basic.

>> No.14730962


>> No.14730981
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Enjoy your false-consciousness

>> No.14731153

>philosophers bending Deleuze
He assfucked them, what's a little role reversal?

>> No.14731204

i would say that they don't assfuck him enough.

>> No.14731209
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>Been reading Anti-Oedipus lately

>> No.14731212

deleuze (or Kierkegaard) is the patron saint of pseuds.

>> No.14731217
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>enlightenment is a 'temporal' "experience"

>> No.14731221
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>deleuze (or Kierkegaard)
They were shown to be of the same Protestantistic mold by Rene Guenon (pbuh) in his magnificent sacred scholarship.

>> No.14731254
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utterfly btfo for me after reading guenon. he destroyed their garbage works and then so did I, along with all of my pseud-looking notes about them. i'm literally ashamed to admit on an anonymous chinese-picturebook-discussion forum that I have even wasted any time with them.

pic related is how I feel when I remember about this whole situation.

>> No.14731264
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Based... Welcome home, brother.

>> No.14731271

>admits to being brainlet
You might also enjoy Harry Potter -- stay away from those evil pomo literatures which make you work, wouldn't want that...

>> No.14731283
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>tfw you refute the entirety of Western philosophy as a mere afterthought after your daily morning prayer

>> No.14731286

Nice. Keep it bumped.

>> No.14731311

>guen*n wordfilter hides half the posts in the thread.
jesus christ.

>> No.14731317
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>jesus christ
You know he (pbuh) would not appreciate you hiding away from the Truth, right?

>> No.14731327

The thread pretty much ended between OP and the first 3 posters. Idk whats the deal with people here with guen*n and bringing him to every thread they see.

>> No.14731328

my Brother, he (pbuh) can lead you out of the cave of shadows. Take his hand and join us in the light of the Sun.

>> No.14731378
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>bringing him to every thread they see
He (pbuh) retroactively refutes every pseud-thread on /lit/ for eternity.

>> No.14731390

It didn't end at all, OP offered a very complex and interesting question and subject. I think the problem is that the question is too good for this format, it requires immense walls of text to explore.

>> No.14731402
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>check with me if im getting full of bullshit?
You are reading Deleuze, after all.

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