/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14714567]

This book really captures everything wrong with socialism

[Anonymous No.14714572]

>>14714567
How?

[Anonymous No.14714579]

>>14714567
Is this your first attempt to bait /lit/? So cute.

[Anonymous No.14714588]

It captures everything wrong with totalitarianism.
Socialism doesn't really factor in that much.
The issue with 1984 isn't that they have socialized healthcare or workers unions. Infact it's not obvious they have those things at all.
Either this is bad bait or you are really retarded.

[Anonymous No.14714606]

>>14714579
Why do you think I'm baiting? Oceania is literally a socialist's wet dream

[Anonymous No.14714640]

>>14714606
Oceania is a totalitarian oligarchy, dumbfuck. The exact opposite of socialism.

[Anonymous No.14714657]

>>14714606
No? It's not?
Workers have no rights.
The people have no power, democratic or otherwise.
Nobody has any freedom.
This undermines all the core motives for socialism.

[Anonymous No.14714662]

>>14714606
Retard they're literally the same thing
>hurrrr the Soviet Union wasn't real socialism!
Try again

[Anonymous No.14714673]

>>14714567
Trump's presidency is a perfect reflection of the book. Obviously to a smaller degree but if he was given the time he'd make the attempt for full on Oceania.

[Anonymous No.14714691]

>>14714588
>IngSoc isn't real socialism

[Anonymous No.14714716]

>socialism is when a handful of elites control everything and plunge the state in never ending wars against the (((OTHERS)))
you mean capitalism OP?

[Anonymous No.14714720]

>>14714691
Look up Orwellian "doublespeak", son.

[Anonymous No.14714721]

>>14714662
The Soviet Union, North Korea and China are only very scantily clinging to Socialist ideals.
The point of Socialism was to give the workers more rights over their working conditions by taking power away from business owners and putting it in the hands of unions.
In 1984, and the aforementioned examples, power has been taken away from the business owners AND the workers, and given to the state. Democracy was also abolished, leaving the workers (i.e the intended benefactors of Socialism) with no benefits at all.
The intention of state owned means of production was so that by proxy of the state being a democratic representation of the people, the means would be governed by the people. But because there is no democracy, the means are in now way operated by the workers.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a socialist and I'm generally against Socialism. But I'm not retarded enough to think that the problems in 1984 are unique to Socialism.

[Anonymous No.14714733]

>bro this is just like socialism. Thank god we dont have tvs and phones that spy on us, endless war, ideological propaganda in media or education. Thank god we have a democracy that offers real choice and is totally fair.

[Anonymous No.14714735]

>>14714662
Communism is a perversion of socialism.

[Anonymous No.14714736]

>>14714691
>The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism by Emmanuel Goldstein describes the Party's ideology as an oligarchical collective which "rejects and vilifies every principle for which the Socialist movement originally stood, and it does so in the name of Socialism". It is noteworthy that in the terms of the book this ideology would be a form of doublethink.

[Anonymous No.14714739]

>>14714567
Orwell was a fking socialist so idk brother

[Anonymous No.14714870]

>>14714733
I never said this, it's very scary how similar modern US and UK are to 1984, but that also shows how close we've gotten to socialism. The postmodernists have done enormous damage to the west, maybe unfixable

[Anonymous No.14714888]

>>14714567
the book literally goes over how Ingsoc started out with pure socialist intentions, but then got rid of some of the core principals and it morphed

guess you weren't paying attention?

[Anonymous No.14714898]

>>14714888
you werent the one paying attention faggot, the book is clearly an indictment of socialism in practice. nice trips btw

[Anonymous No.14715066]

>>14714888
>clearly an indictment of socialism in practice
George Orwell was a socialist. Why the fuck would a socialist write a book that is supposedly anti-socialist?
No 1984 is going against totalitarian governments, like the Soviets.
Orwell believed that states like the Nazis and USSR took socialist ideas and beliefs and then betrayed them, like...Ingsoc?
Furthermore in Orwell's essay Inside the Whale, he refers to the ideology of the Soviets as being an environment that makes mental honesty impossible, like...doublethink?

Regardless Orwell was a socialist so it makes zero sense for him to write a book that is anti-socialist.

[Anonymous No.14715069]

my bad
>>14715066 was referring to >>14714898

[Anonymous No.14715089]

>>14715066
I agree with you but the socialists themselves got quite butthurt with Orwell on account of AF and accused him of being antisocialist.

[Anonymous No.14715448]

>>14714567
Authoritarianism comes from many directions/labels economic system isnt synonymous with lack of civil rights. We have a free market, and big tech AI is working with the FBI to decide what to tell "fact checking" outlets what is "true" which is sometimes a bald faced lie

[Anonymous No.14715476]

>>14714735
Oh wow, you're retard

[Anonymous No.14715722]

>>14714657
>nobody has any freedom
Sounds like socialism to me

[Anonymous No.14715920]

>>14715066
The absolute state of socialists. They will tell themselves anything, perform any amount of mental gymnastics, to convince themselves that
>th-this book about an oppressive socialist government actually vindicates US!!
Go back to >>>/r/books, they might be more your speed

[Anonymous No.14715952]

>>14715722
Socialism maximizes individual freedom.

[Anonymous No.14715967]

>>14714870
>postmodernists
Please explain, retard, how a few artists and critics active in the late 20th century, facilitated the modern surveillance state.

[Anonymous No.14716075]

>>14714567
George Orwell was a socialist. It's against totalitarian regimes.

[Anonymous No.14716078]

>>14715066
He was a democratic socialist, not communist

[Anonymous No.14716083]

>>14716078
Yes. A Socialist. That's what he said.

[Anonymous No.14716093]

>>14715967
muh leftists bad

[Anonymous No.14716676]

>>14715952
What makes individual freedom?

[Anonymous No.14716705]

>>14714567
This is the most reddit post I've seen all day. You're real gay for this one OP

[Anonymous No.14716712]

>>14715952
oh sweetie, we are talking about socialism in real life not in your fantasy

[Anonymous No.14716745]

>>14716083
It's clear that Orwell was criticizing certain aspects of socialists despite being socialist himself. Communists literally tried to kill him.

[Anonymous No.14716909]

>>14715952
yes, freedom to die in Gulag from lack of food

[Anonymous No.14716935]

>>14714870
>I never said this, it's very scary how similar modern US and UK are to 1984, but that also shows how close we've gotten to socialism. The postmodernists have done enormous damage to the west, maybe unfixable
Imagine being this brainwashed

[Anonymous No.14716972]

>>14714870
https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

being cucked by capitalism so hard you call it socialism because it asked you to.

[Anonymous No.14717088]

I know this is bait but boomers say this all the time
Don’t think they know who Orwell was

[Anonymous No.14717306]

>>14714567
I swear this book has retarded two entire generations.
Besides, 99% of the people mentioning it haven't actually read it.

[Anonymous No.14717309]

Read Brave New World instead.

[Anonymous No.14717397]

>>14714691
Buffalo Wild Wings serves buffalo meat

[Anonymous No.14717856]

1984 is just Orwell having a literary wank over how much he hates Stalin.

Interestingly both 1984 and Animal Farm are very sympathetic to Trotsky, but seem to have no direct Lenin analogue. So it’s unclear if Orwell thought that the Bolshevics were evil from the beginning or is in the “revolution good, shittiness happened some point later” camp.

[Anonymous No.14717876]

“Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.“ - George Orwell

[Anonymous No.14717895]

>>14717856
>So it’s unclear if Orwell thought that the Bolshevics were evil from the beginning or is in the “revolution good, shittiness happened some point later” camp.

“I meant the moral to be that revolutions only effect a radical improvement when the masses are alert and know how to chuck out their leaders as soon as the latter have done their job. The turning-point of the story was supposed to be when the pigs kept the milk and apples for themselves (Kronstadt). If the other animals had had the sense to put their foot down then, it would have been all right.“

[Anonymous No.14717979]

>>14717895
> considers Kronstadt the defeat of the Russian Revolution
> writes Trotsky as completely sympathetic and a hero who was unjustly exiled

???

[Anonymous No.14717982]

>>14714640
>oligarchy
weeoo weeoo weeoo
retard alert retard alert

[Anonymous No.14718001]

>>14717876
...which would make him just about unique among socialists

[Anonymous No.14718003]

>>14717979
> writes Trotsky as completely sympathetic and a hero who was unjustly exiled
Snowball hoarded the milk and apples along with his fellow pigs; he wasn’t entirely sympathetic or heroic.

[Anonymous No.14718011]

>>14718001
There’s a reason Orwell has a more universal appeal than many other left-wing writers I’d the period; his refusal to contort his brain to justify Stalinism is part of it.

[Anonymous No.14718326]

>>14714567
>it's a /pol/ comes to /lit/ and misinterprets the most basic shit chapter

[Anonymous No.14718415]

>>14715920
this. The irony is hilarious on one level, scary and sad on another.

[Anonymous No.14718423]

>>14718326
>ackshuayally, INGSOC were the double plus good guys.

[Anonymous No.14718530]

>>14716075
socialist cope

[Anonymous No.14718562]

>>14717982
It is and we even meet one of the oligarch class, the official. In a totalitarian state the government officials are the oligarchs.

[Anonymous No.14718605]

>but bro the theory

[Anonymous No.14718905]

>>14718562
literally the only logical end result of socialism.

[Anonymous No.14719089]

>>14718905
Real socialism™ preserves the element of democratically elected leaders. There is no democracy or even farce of a democracy in a totalitarian state. But yes, Democratic socialism is prone to decaying to resemble a state virtually indistinguishable from totalitarianism.

[Anonymous No.14719128]

>>14719089
this explains why communists are so keen to advance socialism. they need the totalitarian stage to re-educate/murder the opposition. "it wasn't meant to turn out like this", said no one on the left ever

[Anonymous No.14719153]

>>14714870
go outside and maybe even have sex please

[Anonymous No.14719184]

>>14719128
They're keen, like every other ambitious faggot alive, to be in charge. They want to put into place a system where education has more power than material wealth. They turn a blind eye to the fact that power correlates with nepotism and everything else is just a cope. And they are humiliated, imprisoned, or killed accordingly when their revolution ends and the new nepotistic tribe takes root. They may be an intellectual, but they are not a member of the ruling family.

[Anonymous No.14719226]

>>14714662
>>14714691
How come you guys can even use a computer?

[Anonymous No.14719237]

>>14719226
Capitalism.

[Anonymous No.14719812]

>>14714673
I disagree. Trump isn't ideological; any system that allows him to gratify his appetite for validation would probably win his approval.

[Anonymous No.14720265]

>>14714662
>>hurrrr the Soviet Union wasn't real socialism!
Agreed

[Anonymous No.14720299]

>>14720265
retarded socialist detected

[Anonymous No.14720351]

>>14716745
He was critiquing totalitarianism
socialism is usually a stateless society

[Anonymous No.14720582]

>>14714567
https://discord.gg/hCjX58e

[Anonymous No.14720702]

>>14720351
>socialism is usually a stateless society
care to post some examples of stateless socialist societies ?

[Anonymous No.14720719]

>>14720702
Anarchist basque
why are you so smug though? you are obviously misconceived

[Anonymous No.14720790]

>>14720719
>socialism is usually a stateless society
>usually
literally one example in all recorded time

[Anonymous No.14720817]

>>14720790
When i say usually i mean usually defined as not usually implemented as, you must have misunderstood

[Anonymous No.14720864]

>>14720817
or perhaps I understand but too well

[Anonymous No.14721217]

>>14720817
>usually, the implementation is a disaster
so maybe socialism isn't a fucking good idea.
Orwell understood this perfectly; anyone with half a brain who reads 1984 or, say, Animal Farm will realize this

[Anonymous No.14721247]

>>14721217
>so maybe socialism isn't a fucking good idea.
>Orwell understood this perfectly; anyone with half a brain who reads 1984 or, say, Animal Farm will realize this

It might shock you to learn that Orwell actually wrote more than two books. Here's a passage from "Homage to Catalonia":

"I am well aware that it is now the fashion to deny that Socialism has anything to do with equality. In every country in the world a huge tribe of party-hacks and sleek little professors are busy ‘proving’ that Socialism means no more than a planned state-capitalism with the grab-motive left intact. But fortunately there also exists a vision of Socialism quite different from this. The thing that attracts ordinary men to Socialism and makes them willing to risk their skins for it, the ‘mystique’ of ‘Socialism, is the idea of equality; to the vast majority of people Socialism means a classless society, or it means nothing at all."

[Anonymous No.14721251]

>>14721217
when did i say it was implemented in disatrous ways
>orwell knows this
havent you read the thread?
>>14720864
>tfw too smart to read

[Anonymous No.14721323]

>>14714567
I remember my first beer.