/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.14692093]

How do antinatalists reconcile with the fact that most people like life enough to prefer to exist than not exist. While I technically didn’t consent to being born, I didn’t decline it either, and if given the chance to go back in time and stop my parents from conceiving me, I wouldn’t do it. Everyone else, unless they’re suicidal or going through some angsty/nihilistic phase, feel the same way. So it seems self-evident that the value of life overrides any supposed harm it may bring.

[Anonymous No.14692117]

Antinatalists pay no heed to the living. Most recognize that evolution has programmed us to cling to life and fear death strongly enough to prevent the most (even antinatalists) from willful self-termination. The whole point of antinatalism is that while we can't help ourselves, we can do the kind act and never bring others into the prison of life

[Anonymous No.14692151]

>>14692117
Why is not bringing someone to life an act of kindness? I'm glad that I exist.

[Anonymous No.14692411]

>>14692117
you fell for the meme. It's only a prison if you want it to be. If you really wanted to, you could live in the wild. Be a hobo. Be a banker. Just takes effort and will, which antinatalists imo lack, instead blaming their parents for their condition instead of working on bettering their own condition.

[Anonymous No.14692437]

>>14692411
>Just takes effort and will
And you accuse others of faliing for a meme

[Anonymous No.14692449]

>>14692411
You're an idiot. You're not worth my effort to refute. Tell yourself this same thing when you're dying of a tumour growing out your arsehole.

[Anonymous No.14692462]

>>14692093
Antinatalists are such insufferable whiny faggots that they make me want to kill myself. Is this their master plan? Is being so gay a way to perform their philosophy, to make people realize that life is not worth living?
Lucky for me, I can close my eyes and walk away from the computer.

[Anonymous No.14692479]

>>14692151
You're delusional and you don't understand.

[Anonymous No.14692499]

I feel like an antinatalist would make a great villain. Think about it: a character who tries to go back in time and prevent humans from ever existing, or some shit like that. They would have understandable motives and would be the hero of their story -- all traits of a great villain.

[Anonymous No.14692509]

>>14692093
>people like life enough to prefer to exist than not exist
Do you have a source on this claim?
From my perspective people need a constant mountain of cultural, religious and legal barriers in order not to kill themselves just about immediately when they have the chance. Sick people, poor people, slaves, sexual slaves, etc etc.
If life is so awesome, and people are not being forced to live, why are there almost no countries were voluntary euthanasia is legal? Where you can just go somewhere, pay a fee, and let professional doctors end your life in a controlled peaceful way?

Most people don't prefer to exist, they just do because its their biological imperative, and suicidal thoughts are constantly patrolled by religions that affirm you will go to hell, laws that ban effective/humane suicide methods, and all other manner of guilt tripping and shit.
It's statistically very likely you or someone you know will be begging to be put out of their misery, even if at their deathbed.
But the thing is you're still attacking a strawman. The actual antinatalist argument is that the anti natalist person will not have children so as not to bet with their lives. If you are not an anti-natalist, there's no reason for you to not have children.
If you truly believe life is good, go ahead and have them. The thing is you might be dooming them to a life of misery, and the average anti natalist can't live with this idea easily.
Any denial of this is a cope by people living coddled lives.
Those who suffer and understanding will always choose to not have children.

[Anonymous No.14692534]

>>14692479
Great argument. Thanks for confirming that antinatlism is one of the most poorly thought out philosophies ever. "Denying people existence is good." "Why?" "Ur delusional." kek

[Anonymous No.14692557]

>>14692151
You being glad you exist does not speak to the rest of mankind. There are also ways in which bringing you to life could be done for bad reasons, yet you still end up brainwashing yourself into being glad. Is that all?
If people have children just to save their marriage, just because it's what you're supposed to do, because you want your kids to take care of you when you're old, because you need hands to work on your farm, etc, how are these acts of kindness? Most couples I know having children have them because of dumb reasons like this.

[Anonymous No.14692563]

>>14692534
Who said I want to argue? Waste of time to type what little I do.

[Anonymous No.14692567]

>>14692093
What you want or prefer has absolutely no bearing on what is or what should be morally permissible. Antinatalists are that way for a variety of different/conflicting reasons, but the extent to which you value your life shouldn't come into it. What is important is minimising suffering, not just human suffering but the suffering of gaia at earth magnitude. Your suffering is meaningless in the face of the agony of the earth, upon which we are a virulent strain of microbial life that is plaguing its surface and plumbing its depths for resources.

[Anonymous No.14692573]

Please refrain from talking shit about antinatalism until you've read either the conspiracy, trouble with being born, better never to have been, or at least the last messiah. You're being as annoying and laughable as reddit atheists who attack christianity having never touched the bible.
With warm thanks, antinatalist gang

[Anonymous No.14692578]

>>14692573
You think anyone that debates anything on an imageboard reads?

[Anonymous No.14692584]

>>14692117
If you really believe this, go ahead and kill yourself.

Oh wait ...

[Anonymous No.14692595]

>>14692509
Source? Less than 5% of people report having suicidal thoughts, so... yeah.

People need religion and culture to not kill themselves? So explain all the atheists and postmodernists who aren't suicidal at all. Also since when does the law prevent suicide? Just buy a gun and blow your brains out.

Go out on the street and ask literally anyone if they had the opportunity to stop existing, would they take it. 99% of the time you're going to get a very confused "Um... no?"

You're probably just upset that most people aren't as resentful about life as you are, so as some coping mechanism you convinced yourself that everyone would have been better off not being born. Get over yourself you selfish prick.

>Those who suffer and understanding will always choose to not have children.
So people who suffer don't have kids? But most people have kids, ergo most people don't suffer? But that defeats the purpose of your whole position.

You're probably mad at me right now. I bet you wish I was never born right? lol

[Anonymous No.14692613]

>>14692151
they think from their subjective point of view.
existence is miserable for them and they wish that they would have never existed. so why would they want to bring another person into this world?

[Anonymous No.14692627]

>>14692573
That's like saying I can't criticize hitler unless i've read mein kempf. it's retarded logic. either op is right or he isnt.

speaking of hitler, i guess antinatlists think he was a great guy, considering he ended the suffering of millions of people

[Anonymous No.14692648]

>>14692595
>Less than 5% of people report having suicidal thoughts
Look up the correlation of religiousness and suicidal attempts in people who already have suicidal thoughts. This is not something people will openly talk about, and you're right, many people who are suffering tremendously might still say they are glad to be alive and continue suffering until the very last second of their life, with a smile on their face, and glad they gave their descendants a chance to suffer the same fate.
All I'm saying is I don't find this a good thing. Not sure what's so hard about it.
>Just buy a gun and blow your brains out.
This is illegal almost literally anywhere except in the USA.
>So explain all the atheists and postmodernists who aren't suicidal at all.
They haven't suffered enough yet. Most people acting tough like you change surprisingly when life gives them a few good punches. Look at Jordan Peterson right now, lol. If you ever visit a retirement home or a hospital you'll see the same.
>Get over yourself you selfish prick.
The only reason you feel so attacked that someone might not want to be alive is because of the cultural/religious brainwashing I was talking about. You also carefully danced around the question as to why there aren't suicide clinics where people could pay with their own money, voluntarily, to end their lives. Even in the countries where things like this exists, it's massively taboo and legally challenging to try and do.
>So people who suffer don't have kids?
People who suffer and have the understanding. Most people suffer. Most people don't have the understanding, so they just perpetuate this cycle. For every one happy animal that lived a good life in this planet there are dozens that lived horrible lives and died gruesomely. The same is true for mankind. Or do you think the average human being lives in a pretty house with hot water on the shower and internet access?
Why do you think suicide is the worst sin for just about every major religion? You think it's a coincidence?
>You're probably mad at me right now. I bet you wish I was never born right? lol
You are not remotely close to bothering me that much, and you thinking that's what brings someone like me to dislike living shows how little understanding you have of the matter.

[Anonymous No.14692654]

>>14692627
>speaking of hitler, i guess antinatlists think he was a great guy, considering he ended the suffering of millions of people
no he did it against their will

[Anonymous No.14692673]

>i love my life, i'm so glad i was born

[Anonymous No.14692727]

>>14692093
the logical conclusion of antinatalism is to reproduce as much as you can and indoctrinate your children with antinatalist dogma. then when you've done it so it's like a pyramid scheme and mostly everyone on the earth is an antinatalist (within a few decades), you can kill off anyone who isn't and then you can voluntary go into the self-extinction that is the final cause of antinatalism. it's the most logical way to end millennia of future suffering in just a couple of decades.

[Anonymous No.14692799]

>>14692648
Aah, you seem to want people to hate life as much as you do. They don't. Especially when statistically most people's reaction to a dangerous situation is fear and not "thank god i might die."
>This is illegal almost literally anywhere except in the USA.
It's not that hard to acquire a gun outside the usa. If you were really determined to end your life you'd find a way, otherwise ur just going through a phase.
>They haven't suffered enough yet.
And you've suffered enough? give me a break, im sure you life a cushy life compared to most in the world, ur just being ungrateful
>Look at Jordan Peterson right now
Look at Dostoevsky. Also bad example on your part. the chances that peterson will come out in support of antinatalism after his recovery is practically zero
>The only reason you feel so attacked that someone might not want to be alive
I don't care if you don't want to live. go ahead, kill yourself, see if I care. the problem if that you think you're qualified to speak for everyone. Who says i'd be better off not existing?
>You also carefully danced around the question as to why there aren't suicide clinics where people could pay with their own money, voluntarily, to end their lives
So you think there arent enough suicide clinics because the government/our culture is brainwashing us or something? you don't need a clinic to kill yourself. also most people don't want to kill themselves, otherwise the usa would be filled with gun suicides relative to their population. the burden of proof that most people want to die is on you. so far you've given me nothing but your weird poetic flourishes
>it's massively taboo
suicide is taboo because people value life. shocker
>Most people don't have the understanding
this isnt even a real argument. I can easily say you don't have understanding and the antinatalists have brainwashed you to hate life

You think you have access to some deep truth that most people don't, that if everyone "understood" like you do then they would all hate life just as much. sure thing. I'm hearing you loud and clear and I still like life. Also its interesting that you bring up people living in poverty without hot water and the internet. suicides happen most often in first world countries, where the least suffering happens. suicide is hardly tied to suffering. we suffer more in imagination than in reality.

BTW I do think you dislike me. its obvious you do you dishonest buffoon

[Anonymous No.14692911]

>>14692509
>Most people don't prefer to exist, they just do because its their biological imperative
So in other words, people prefer to exist.
...Did you think before you wrote that?

[Anonymous No.14693036]

>>14692093
Antinatalism is a psýop made to cull the "smart" normies. It's childfree for those who fancy themselves as philosophers.

[Anonymous No.14693071]

>>14692093
You ever see someone on their deathbed wailing and sobbing? I have. Nothing has ever made me hate life more.

[Anonymous No.14693103]

>>14693071
how did it affected you?

[Anonymous No.14693104]

>life is suffering, I don't wanna live
>then kys lul
>no, I won't, but you should stop birthing kids tho
>why
>because I think life is suffering and everyone should too
fuck of with this shit, you'll get over your phase, xXx_LordOfVoid_xXx

[Anonymous No.14693133]

>>14692911
Let me write the full sentence for your slow head to understand it better.
>Most people don't prefer to exist, they just exist because it's their biological imperative.
I can try to draw it with crayons if it'll help more.

[Anonymous No.14693139]

>>14693103
I was filled with disgust at the indignity and horror that someone who lives correctly and healthily is rewarded by living long enough to be in agony while organs fail.

[Anonymous No.14693142]

>>14692093
If your life is so good, prove it. Oh wait, you can't. Therefore I am right in pursuing anti-natalism.

[Anonymous No.14693166]

>>14693104
>Depression is not real bro.
>Suffering is not real bro.
>Suicidal people are just weak bro.
>Life is good bro.
>If you kill yourself you go to hell and suffer forever bro.
>If you kill yourself you just revive and there's no point in doing it bro.
>If this biological machine evolved for 1 billion years not to kill itself decides to sabotage you at the last second and you botch the attempt, you might become invalid or live even worse off, but that just happens to people who don't reeeeally want it, bro. I know it because I totally tried to kill myself before 100 times and failed bro.
>Bro why don't you just do it? Got you there antinatalists.

[Anonymous No.14693200]

>>14693166
Address these points rather than simply acting like they are self-evidently wrong

[Anonymous No.14693229]

>>14693133
"Most people don't like to feel pleasure, it's just their biological imperative that makes them like it"
Do you not see how retarded you sound?

[Anonymous No.14693237]

>>14692799
>It's not that hard to acquire a gun outside the usa.
You're just babbling shit out of your ass. Irrelevant to argue this point further.
>And you've suffered enough?
Yes. You cannot prove otherwise.
>the chances that peterson will come out in support of antinatalism after his recovery is practically zero
That's not the point. The point is even self improvement apologists that talk about the preciousness of life and whatnot can be driven to suicide by a relatively minor number of setbacks in life. In the case of Peterson, anxiety and addiction, possibly due to medical malpractice.
>Who says i'd be better off not existing?
No one. Also you asking myself to take unsafe, uncertain methods to hurt myself just shows how hypocritical the average person like you is.
>So you think there arent enough suicide clinics because the government/our culture is brainwashing us or something?
Yes. Even in countries where euthanasia of terminally ill is legal, or where death penalty is legal, a random person that wants to pay for that service cannot legally do so. You are not even trying to address this because you know you can't. I'm not even saying it should be state sponsored, people could pay with their own money, and the framework already exists (euthanasia for terminally ill/ death penalty, as mentioned). That would be a humane way to let people off a life they don't want anymore, instead of asking them to do psychologically and biologically more challenging acts of self harm.
>I can easily say you don't have understanding and the antinatalists have brainwashed you to hate life
You can say it, but that doesn't address my arguments.

>suicides happen most often in first world countries
Because those people are more likely to understand the hopelessness of the situation. That's what I mean by understanding.

Honest question, have you ever been with a relative in their death bed, or saw them get destroyed by some disease? Did you ever have a relative tell you they don't want to be alive anymore and not be able to do anything for them? I'm willing to bet no.

>BTW I do think you dislike me.
I'm indifferent, you have opinion of the vast majority, it'd be counter productive to hate you or some shit. I'd have to hate everyone. What you said is I'm so angry at your shitty arguments, that I wouldn't want to live anymore because of them. That's just not true.

[Anonymous No.14693265]

>>14693200
I can't address whether suicide leads to hell or not. It's one of the main reasons why I'm afraid to do it.

[Anonymous No.14693274]

>>14693237
>>And you've suffered enough?
>Yes. You cannot prove otherwise.
And you can't prove it.

[Anonymous No.14693291]

>>14693237
>you have opinion of the vast majority
you absolute dumbass you just proved my point. like I said, most people like life and dont want to die/not exist.

[Anonymous No.14693311]

>this thread

[Anonymous No.14693312]

>>14693229
You could probably argue that pleasure is deeply related to the biological imperative of surviving. Although your comparison to the other sentence is bad and intellectually dishonest I still think it proves my point more than yours.

[Anonymous No.14693322]

>>14693291
Most people don't think about this actively.
A more interesting experiment would be to ask "if you are ever with a severe illness, the chance of being cured is extremely uncertain, and you are suffering a lot, would you prefer to die or wait for a possible cure?"
And then you can wait and see if they change their mind, should that illness ever come. My argument is that most people who say they'd prefer to live through it would change their mind. I could be wrong.

[Anonymous No.14693326]

>>14692093
Alright OP I got you. Imma permanently debunk antinatalism for all to see.

The main argument is that it's better to not exist, because there's no suffering in non-existence. But how do you know there's no suffering in non-existence? Is there any evidence? Has anyone ever gone into non-existence and come back to confirm that claim?

What if non-existence is just burning in hell for all of eternity, and once we're born we forget about all that? In that case, to bring someone to life would be a blessing.

Unless you're not 100% sure that there's no suffering in non-existence, you can't be an antinatalist.

[Anonymous No.14693338]

>>14693326
Burning in hell for all eternity would be a form of existence

[Anonymous No.14693358]

>>14692093
That doesn't matter.

Either no one is suffering or some people are. Those are your options, why would you pick the option where some people are suffering? why not the one where no one is?

[Anonymous No.14693379]

>>14693338
How can you prove non-existence is real then? What if before we're born we just exist in another dimension burning forever?

[Anonymous No.14693387]

>>14692151
You are glad that you exist but you wouldn't be unhappy to not exist, since you don't exist

Should you have a kid just because it MIGHT be glad it exists? No. You are not taking that being out of some hellish void into existence, it's not an act of kindness because it literally DOESN'T exist and so is not suffering in any way.

[Anonymous No.14693394]

>>14693326
>makes this point
>doesn't just take the relevant quote from Hamlet
What has this board become?

[Anonymous No.14693396]

>>14693326
>Has anyone ever gone into non-existence and come back to confirm that claim?
Yes. You have non-existed for 12 billion years prior to being born, was it painful? Tell us.

[Anonymous No.14693408]

>>14693396
Did you not read my comment?
>What if non-existence is just burning in hell for all of eternity, and once we're born we forget about all that?
How could I tell you if I forgot it all?

[Anonymous No.14693417]

>>14693379
Why are you asking me to prove something when your stance is equally if not more absurd? We don't know what happens before or after we are born, it is something which has to be taken on faith one way or another. I am not even an anti-natalist, but your original question was retarded. Anything which you could perceive would be existence of some kind. Non-existence is just that: no perception, nothing happening to you, no you for things to happen to. If there was pain, it wouldn't be non-existence.

[Anonymous No.14693416]

>>14693326
That death leads you directly to non-existence is also a big assumption.
You die, and then you are a fucking ghost, and have no chance to reach absolute oblivion through Buddhism or something because you are a fucking ghost.
Or not. Because you don't know what comes after death.
And lo and behold, these fuckers then start asking the real questions and shitting up /x/. And then they come back, because being too weak to live or die means being too weak to have some courage and follow a path instead of ejaculating foul mental garbage.

[Anonymous No.14693425]

>>14692093
They can live and reproduce. No antinatalist has ever been so naive to believe he could defeat the biological imperative, Antinatalism is egotistical at heart . It doesn't even have to be necessarely misanthropy driving you not to reproduce, it's self-termination. You extinguish your will by not raising your offspring, thus nothing of you survives, you break a chain, don't contribute anything to the eternal turn of the wheel. It's like a petty revenge against life, pure spite.
I read something interesting in the Business of Living earlier today.
Pavese was talking about man's obsession with cursing God, especially the ones convinced of his inexistence but thtat sometimes feel viscerally his presence.And thus they sometimes get this fit of rage and start cursing the name of this God that may or may not exist convinced that their slander might disrupt his eternal bliss even for a moment . Man is literal shit yet he holds this power over God, convinced that He evenually will punish us for it but NOBODY will take away that displeasure from him. It's a consolation, the“meilleur témoignage que nous poussions donner de notre dignité”.

Forgot were I was going with this, guess it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous No.14693587]

There are many ways people justify their existence, all of which antinatalists would say are delusions that ultimately serve a biological will of which most are unaware of.
It is through consciousness we suffer because we are capable of comprehending our fate. So a lack of consciousness through non-existence is seen as desirable

[Anonymous No.14694115]

>>14693312
What point are you even making? You're saying people don't REALLY want to live because it's just their brains deciding for them (i.e. their biology)? That makes no sense. Our brains is who we are. On the contrary, people are often suicidal when depressed or suffering some illness. When they're fine and clear of mind, they don't want to die at all.

Trying to argue with you smooth brain antinatalists is causing me suffering. Why don't you off yourself and make the world a better place?

[Anonymous No.14694158]

>>14692093
"How do antinatalists reconcile with the fact that most people like life enough to prefer to exist than not exist."

1. Majority agreement on something does not make it correct or "right". People have had many incorrect or unsavory viewpoints that were held by the majority through time; Child-sacrifice, slavery, etc.

"While I technically didn’t consent to being born, I didn’t decline it either, and if given the chance to go back in time and stop my parents from conceiving me, I wouldn’t do it."

2. As an individual I respect your right to view life for yourself as you see fit. This tolerance of your difference viewpoint comes from the fact that all things should be formed from the basis of consent. Since that idea of consenting to enjoying your life only involves yourself, my disagreement with your viewpoint is irrelevant. However this does not apply to creating new life, since you are effectively making the decision for the yet-to-be-made person. Once this person is created, you are only assuming that they will enjoy life. If they do not enjoy life, there is no recourse to your non-consensual decision. This leads into a number of things such as the biggest reason pro-natalism exists is because to defend against such a lose-lose outcome, people merely brainwash all new beings with a pro-life mentality.

"Everyone else, unless they’re suicidal or going through some angsty/nihilistic phase, feel the same way. So it seems self-evident that the value of life overrides any supposed harm it may bring."

3. That's a very big generalization, I will stick to the main idea of it, since it has a lot to sort out.
I disagree that "everyone" agrees life is of positive value. In my view its not that life has a positive value, but that suicide has a negative value, at least insofar as how negative life is. If suicide were instant/effortless/gauranteed I would most likely accept it, not in a despairing way, but in a rational one. People rarely stop to ask themselves "why?" Why continue the human race when starvation, disease, old age, death, and suffering in general exist? People merely retort with "Because" or "Everyone does it" or "This is just the way it is". That does not validly explain whether it is correct or not, whether life is worth living or not, and the idea that the living supporting it in general is not a good reason, because its sort of post-purchase rationalization. If you are stuck among the living, who obviously suffer and will continue the suffer, accepting the truth of it only increases the pain, so most people choose to ignore it, and delude themselves with "Life is good, I enjoy it!". Admittedly optimist dulls the pain of life, but it causes the cycle to continue and consume even more beings who will suffer.

Even if I accepted your argument that life is "good" (even though I do not for a number of reasons I will cover it someone responds to this) it does not account for the "losers" of the gamble.

[Anonymous No.14694270]

>>14692627
fucking hell what a retarded post. please slit your throat

[Anonymous No.14694778]

>>14692093
imagine there was a one percent chance that your baby was black. there you're wrong.

[Anonymous No.14694912]

>>14694158
1. Fair enough, but the claim that life isn't worth living is very vague and abstract. Doesn't mean anything. This isn't a matter of being correct or incorrect, it's all just personal opinion. If you don't think life is good then that's true for you and only you, not necessarily everyone else.

2. This whole line of reasoning is self-defeating. The pre-born person does not exist, so they can neither consent nor decline. "They" aren't even real. You can only say life is bad when compared to non-existence, which only exists in concept and we obviously cannot experience it. Antinatalism isn't even a serious philosophy, it's just a mental exercise meant to test people's rationality. The only reason you even prefer non-existence is because you exist. The whole thing makes no sense.

3. There's no need to disagree, because this is a fact, not an opinion. If you hold a gun to someone's face (i.e. not suicide) they will still get scared and do everything you tell them to do in the hopes that they won't die. They clearly value life in that regard. Also, your explanation that people value because "everyone does it" is wrong scientifically. People value life because of self-preservation, a concept that's rooted in billions of years of evolution. Valuing life is an instinct, you don't need some culture or society to teach it to you. On the contrary, you usually need some culture/religion to teach you not to fear death, like Buddhists or something.

You should also read Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, or Camus before making the claim that life is bad because of suffering. Suffering is what gives our lives meaning. In non-existence there is no meaning.

[Anonymous No.14694997]

>>14694158
1.) Then anti-natalists cannot claim that life is unethical because of their naively pessimistic counter-claim that most people hate life enough to prefer not to exist, ergo procreation is unethical.

2.) You are not making a decision for a "yet-to-be-made person." If you presuppose an atheistic view of pre and post-existence, there is no person before conception, therefore you are not making a decision for anyone. Furthermore, you cannot ask them for consent, not because you are unable to do so (do not give me the example of a comatose man), but because they do not exist. You are only trying to "make" them exist by making them a potentiality, but this potentiality is arbitrary and ultimately nonexistent. Why am I making a decision for one person? What if my child is to be a miscarriage? What if I expect one child but have triplets?

3.) Should people also stop to ask themselves why eating is right, or why breathing air is right? There is no "post-purchase rationalization" because the purchaser does not exist before the purchase.

[Anonymous No.14695001]

>>14693036
Once the smart ones die out the other people like you will follow through regardless of what they want, as they're unable to manage the civilization that sustains them artificially.

[Anonymous No.14695150]

>>14692509
>From my perspective people need a constant mountain of cultural, religious and legal barriers in order not to kill themselves just about immediately when they have the chance
You also forgot the biological barriers and a myriad of personal goals. Basically, you're just stating that people have reasons not to kill themselves, how innovative, I never looked at it that way.

>If life is so awesome, and people are not being forced to live, why are there almost no countries were voluntary euthanasia is legal
What is the connection between the legality of euthanasia and the "goodness" of life? A better question is, why can't you just commit suicide yourself if there are so many painless ways to go about it?

>most people don't prefer to exist, they just do so because it's their biological imperative
Do you have any source on this claim? Have you personally asked every person, or must you perpetually resort to naive oversimplifications and pessimistic doomsaying? The truth is, if you don't prefer to exist, you can easily override your biological imperative and commit suicide. I will not pretend to know the reason why you do not then kill yourself in that moment. It could be an unfounded fear. What are you afraid of? That your life may improve in the future, and you just saved yourself from a better life? No, certainly that's just naive optimism.

> suicidal thoughts are constantly patrolled by religions that affirm you will go to hell
Then don't believe in those religions. Simplu ca buna ziua.

> laws that ban effective/humane suicide methods
Then find an effective/ "humane" alternative that the law cannot control. D.I.Y suicide, BYOB (bring your own bullet). Get imaginative

>It's statistically very likely you or someone you know will be begging to be put out of their misery, even if at their deathbed.
Who cares? This is supposed to make reproduction unethical? Somehow, I, by reproducing, am to blame for this person's ailments further down the line?

>The actual antinatalist argument is that the anti natalist person will not have children so as not to bet with their lives
Bet with the lives of who? A nonexistent entity? Benatar said that the deprivation of pleasure is a bad thing so long as there is a being for whom that deprivation can exist. Because in the case of the so-called "unborn," there is no being that exists, there is no deprivation by not reproducing. Therefore, there is no being whose life you are betting, or upon which you are imposing life, or who you haven't asked for consent, etcetera.

>If you truly believe life is good, go ahead and have them. The thing is you might be dooming them to a life of misery
Might

>and the average anti natalist can't live with this idea easily.
I can't even see how the average anti-natalist lives with himself

>Any denial of this is a cope by people living coddled lives.
This whole dialogue is between people living coddled lives, let's get real. Where did you type this from, your dorm?

[Anonymous No.14695180]

>>14695001
Anti-natalism is just the next stage for white vegans who think they must minimize their carbon footprint and minimize their grey-matter and all that. Meanwhile, the more rudimentary folk will continue to reproduce en masse, and they will also be more easy to control. The anti-natalists in this thread are not of the vegan type, they're just chronic whiners who've undergone babby's first disease/existential crisis.

>>14693358
There will always be suffering. The question is, why should I pick the option where no one is suffering? This doesn't mean I like their suffering, or that I think suffering is good, but simply tell me why I should "pick the option where no one is suffering" (once, again, supposing there is no pre-existence or afterlife).

>>14694115
Because they still cling on to this naive notion, like a piece of optimistic driftwood in the midst of an ocean of angsty pessimism, that they will make a change and convince some people to stop reproducing forever. And eventually, their little band of rejects and underdogs will convince the unwashed masses through "reason and logic" to stop reproducing so we can return to the dust from whence we came. It's pure absurdity

[Anonymous No.14695287]

>>14694115
You are way too stupid to be having this discussion. That whole thing about "ignorance is bliss" might be something going on for your happiness right now.

[Anonymous No.14695304]

>>14695287
If you believe it is wrong to cause suffering, who are you causing us suffering by employing such hurtful invective? I understand that we cannot be consistent all the time, but if that is the reason then say so.

[Anonymous No.14695417]

>>14695304
Saying someone is stupid causes more suffering than that person implying me killing myself is a good thing?
Also, why is it that people who supposedly praise life are so quick to berate and tell anti-natalists to kill themselves, when even anti-natalists are not asking anyone to kill anything, themselves or others?
For any being that came into this world, we must do what's possible to make their life the best possible. At the same time, unless someone presents a really compelling argument, we shouldn't be bringing more things into this world.
I think I haven't seen that good compelling argument yet.

[Anonymous No.14695487]

>>14695150
>if there are so many painless ways to go about it?
Why do people always insist on this fallacy. This is what your position hinges on, and it's just a lie. It makes me realize it's pointless to argue.
Just go to any suicide/depression support group and you'll see this is a lie.
I'm not gonna reply to this argument again. It's too tiring. Your post convinced me to stop arguing about this for the foreseeable future. Do as you please. If you, your children/parents/grandparents are ever in a truly hurtful situation, I hope you remember the lack of empathy you managed to conjure for your fellow human beings.
I bet if you ran over a deer or if your dog got some bad disease you'd put them out of their misery, but you cant seem to understand people don't do this for humans because of culturally ingrained notions.
I honestly hope nothing truly serious befalls you or those close to you. I honestly want people to just live lives with amounts of suffering they can handle without breaking. Life with no suffering is basically impossible, but it can be a decent amount that doesn't obliterate quality of life. Yet for some this won't be the case.
I just wonder if there is any way people like you could see the bigger picture without having to suffer things first hand, but it seems to be extremely rare.
Best of luck in your life.

[Anonymous No.14695504]

>>14695417
What he does or does not do is irrelevant. You believe it is wrong to cause suffering; if so, why do you cause suffering?

>why is it that people who supposedly praise life are so quick to berate and tell anti-natalists to kill themselves
I can't speak for those who do, but the point is that anti-natalism's presuppositions can be used to justify suicide as an ethical act as well. His encouragement of you doing so is likely a direct product of the enmity produced by you causing him suffering.

>when even anti-natalists are not asking anyone to kill anything, themselves or others?
Surely you speak for all anti-natalists. I take it that you haven't heard of Efilism yet?

>For any being that came into this world, we must do what's possible to make their life the best possible
The future only holds more suffering. It also holds the suffering of death. Is it not better to bring that suffering closer and avoid the suffering caused by postponing death and lying to yourself (deceiving yourself that life is good, as one anon said in this thread, through religion's policing and self-help deceitfulness)? That would be the most ethical decision, considering that suffering would be prevented. If you are worried about bothering your parents, you could wait for them to die before performing the act. Or you pretend to run away and pay someone to remove all traces of your body once you kill yourself to give them the false hope that they may still find you (perhaps with a note suggesting you left for foreign lands), which is less awful than them knowing that their child committed suicide. With a little elbow grease, you could dream up a more creative escape route from life's onus.

> we shouldn't be bringing more things into this world.
There are plenty of selfish arguments for doing so. To have someone to take care of you. To have someone to bequeath your life's earnings and accumulations to. To have someone to love. To continue your bloodline. The list continues.

[Anonymous No.14695507]

The orthodox antinatalist argument goes something like this:
a) All lives contain suffering, even good ones
b) Causing suffering is bad
c) Missing out on good things that hypothetically could happen is a net zero
d) It's bad to create even the best life, because it is causing suffering

[Anonymous No.14695533]

>>14695417
>why is it that people who supposedly praise life are so quick to berate and tell anti-natalists to kill themselves
Cuz it’s funny, it’s ironic humor that also makes a valid point

[Anonymous No.14695535]

>>14695487
>Why do people always insist on this fallacy
When there's a will, there's a way. Even if a "painless suicide" doesn't currently exist, it can be created.

> I hope you remember the lack of empathy you managed to conjure for your fellow human beings
Welcome to 4chan

>I bet if you ran over a deer or if your dog got some bad disease you'd put them out of their misery, but you cant seem to understand people don't do this for humans because of culturally ingrained notions.

We're arguing logic here. Emotions are perpendicular to the topic. The presence of culturally ingrained notions is unimportant when considering the ethicality of such an act. We would then have to change the culture to conform to logic's demands

>I honestly hope nothing truly serious befalls you or those close to you. I honestly want people to just live lives with amounts of suffering they can handle without breaking. Life with no suffering is basically impossible, but it can be a decent amount that doesn't obliterate quality of life. Yet for some this won't be the case.
>I just wonder if there is any way people like you could see the bigger picture without having to suffer things first hand, but it seems to be extremely rare.
Best of luck in your life.

I almost felt something, but I remembered who I was arguing with

[Anonymous No.14695559]

>>14695507
Missing out on life is not a net zero. Who the fuck said that?

[Anonymous No.14695589]

>>14695559
Not causing happiness can't be a moral evil. If this was the case we would constantly be doing evil every day by not doing every possible action to make someone happy 24/7

[Anonymous No.14695629]

>>14695559
There isn't anyone to be missing out on life if they never exist in the first place.

[Anonymous No.14695758]

>>14692499
Yes, just like thanos

[Anonymous No.14695786]

>>14692499
I just don't feel as if someone would commit themselves to such an onerous task out of sheer commitment to logic. There has to be some resentment undergirding such an undertaking, leading to the creation of yet another sniveling, resentful, stereotypical villain. He would only be viewed as a sympathetic "hero" insofar as his motives match those of the viewer.

[Anonymous No.14695827]

This stuff is an absolute mess to even think about, why is nonexistence so hard to comprehend? Antinatalism assumes nonexistence after death but it makes no sense to even think about, at least an afterlife has similar qualities to understand.
In a way, pre-existence makes even less sense.

[Anonymous No.14696083]

Bump

[Anonymous No.14696089]

>>14692093
Usually, you can't "decline" without negatively impacting others.

[Anonymous No.14696105]

>>14695827
There was a moment in time where "you" didn't exist. There will be a moment in time where "you" will cease existing. Its pretty easy to comprehend, its just that the average gut reaction is to fight that idea.

[Anonymous No.14696184]

>>14692093

>most people like life enough to prefer to exist than not exist.

Well you see this is just a nonsensical logical leap that you've predicated everything else on
You can't really say you like life when it's literally all you've ever known and you can't even conceive of anything else
Imagine someone who has only eaten bread their whole life trying to tell you that nothing could possibly taste better than bread
Further more all organisms are just biologically built in every way for survival physically and mentally
No creature "wants" to exist or survive it's just all they know and to think otherwise is simply a comforting delusion

[Anonymous No.14696292]

>>14692627
You're a fucking idiot, mate. Not trying to be mean. You're punching way above your station. Do not try to argue with anyone on this board or anywhere else until you're read on whatever you're talking about. This is a literature forum, fucking idiot.

[Anonymous No.14696318]

>>14696184
>Imagine someone who has only eaten bread their whole life trying to tell you that nothing could possibly taste better than bread
He never said life was the best. He just said he preferred it over non existing. Nice shit argument.
Every creature wants things. This is also biological. Stop posting here please

[Anonymous No.14696341]

>>14696318
>cope

[Anonymous No.14696358]

>>14696318

>He never said life was the best. He just said he preferred it over non existing.

This just makes no sense
You can't prefer not existing over anything and you can't prefer anything over not existing either
If you don't exist you don't exist you have no consciousness no anything there is no ability to prefer there to begin with
You cannot say that you know what not existing is like or that you prefer it or not that's just nonsense

[Anonymous No.14696989]

>destroys all life on earth
>gets born somewhere else
Idiot status: rekt

[Anonymous No.14697262]

God I really hope reincarnation is true so all the faggot antinatalists can get trapped in an endless cycle of living, never being able to die.

[Anonymous No.14697267]

>>14697262

[Anonymous No.14697372]

>>14692595
why is your response so emotionally charged compared to the anon that you are replying to? IN fact, judging by your post it seems like you probably hate your life more than him but you wont admit it, a trait in most - they're all too proud to die i guess. Blowing your brains out could easily go wrong and if it does it would be extremely painful. I bet this is bait anyway fuck it.

[Anonymous No.14697383]

>>14697372
>implying happiness is the purpose of life

[Anonymous No.14697395]

>>14692093
Why should I care what others think? They could well be enjoying their own life and that's fine.

[Anonymous No.14697409]

>>14692093
The thing is that antinatalism is a sort of paradox. If I could never have existed I'd probably opt for that but now that I do exist I have no desire to cease existing. Even the idea of going back in time and erasing myself isn't quite correct, from a higher dimensional perspective the temporal aberration would still have existed.

It's an abstract sort of feel, I guess closer to a nostalgia for non-existence than anything else.

[Anonymous No.14697434]

>>14696105
It makes no sense because it's impossible to really comprehend non-existence. All anybody knows is existence. Sure, at one point you didn't exist, but you didn't experience it at all. There was nothing to experience.

[Anonymous No.14697444]

>>14692093
Goddamn ur fuckin stupid.
Having a survival instinct isn't like weighing pros and cons of living vs not on a scale.

Retarded commies trying to make everything an economic equation

[Anonymous No.14697472]

The obvious response is that it's irrelevant whether any given individual enjoys their life. What matters isn't only how their life affects them, but how it affects the world beyond them, too