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File: 144 KB, 274x500, guenon2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14653259 No.14653259 [Reply] [Original]

Brothers, the amount of Guenon(pbuh) support and fan art has been tremendous. Supremely based.


>> No.14653262

Peace be upon my ass

>> No.14653268

This thread is for fruitful discussions of Guenon(pbuh) only.

>> No.14653312
File: 38 KB, 468x580, BZrtjTrCYAIG49-.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>"(...) Furthermore it is not surprising that the Anglo-Saxon passion for “sport” gains more and more ground every day; the ideal of the modern world is the “human animal” who has developed his muscular strength to the utmost; its heroes are the athletes, should they even be brutes; it is they who awaken the popular enthusiasm and it is their exploits that command the passionate interest of the crowd; a world in which such things are possible has indeed sunk low and would seem to be nearing its end."

René Guenon - A Material Civilization

>> No.14653339

So Traditionalism is essentially the virgin philosophy? A sort of lashing out by the emasculated at the chad? Is this why the Nietzschean have always been an antithesis to the Guenonites?

>> No.14653343

>this why the Nietzschean have always been an antithesis to the Guenonites
interesting, how?

>> No.14653352
File: 556 KB, 2500x1250, virgin guenon vs chad serrano-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>> No.14653415
File: 48 KB, 300x400, 1580694364982.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Based thread, brother.
Based refutation of the animalistic Anglo by Shaykh René Guénon (pbuh).
Retroactively refuted by Shaykh René Guénon (pbuh).

>> No.14653506
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A true chad is never animal-like in his nature as a proper traditional representative of the Kshatriya. The Guenonian (pbuh) refutation is correct, naturally.
A weak & petulant manchild who lashed out at the world, refusing to recognize his proper position as a mere slave of Allah (swt).
As a based Jivanmukti, Guenon (pbuh) was above and beyond all duality. Moreover, the profane notion of 'antithesis' has been retroactively refuted by Guenon (pbuh).

>> No.14653539
File: 944 KB, 960x720, 1580577409159.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Why should I read Guenon (pbuh)
>What does Guenon (pbuh) have to offer?

“René Guénon (pbuh) defies classification. . . . Were he anything less than a consummate master of lucid argument and forceful expression, his work would certainly be unknown to all but a small, private circle of admirers.”
—Gai Eaton, author of The Richest Vein

“Guénon (pbuh) established the language of sacred metaphysics with a rigor, a breadth, and an intrinsic certainty such that he compels recognition as a standard of comparison for the twentieth century.”
—Jean Borella, author of Guénonian Esoterism and Christian Mystery

“To a materialistic society enthralled with the phenomenal universe exclusively, Guénon (pbuh), taking the Vedanta as point of departure, revealed a metaphysical and cosmological teaching both macrocosmic and microcosmic about the hierarchized degrees of being or states of existence, starting with the Absolute . . . and terminating with our sphere of gross manifestation.”
—Whitall N. Perry, editor of A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

“René Guénon (pbuh) was the chief influence in the formation of my own intellectual outlook (quite apart from the question of Orthodox Christianity). . . . It was René Guénon (pbuh) who taught me to seek and love the truth above all else, and to be unsatisfied with anything else.”
—Fr. Seraphim Rose, author of The Soul After Death

“His mixture of arcane learning, metaphysics, and scathing cultural commentary is a continent in itself, untouched by the polluted tides of modernity. . . . Guénon’s (pbuh) work will not save the world—it is too late for that—but it leaves no reader unchanged.”
—Jocelyn Godwin, author of Mystery Religions in the Ancient World

“René Guénon (pbuh) is one of the few writers of our time whose work is really of importance. . . . He stands for the primacy of pure metaphysics over all other forms of knowledge, and presents himself as the exponent of a major tradition of thought, predominantly Eastern, but shared in the Middle Ages by the . . . West.”
—Walter Shewring, translator of Homer’s Odyssey

>> No.14653549
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“In a world increasingly rife with heresy and pseudo-religion, Guénon (pbuh) had to remind twentieth century man of the need for orthodoxy, which presupposes firstly a Divine Revelation and secondly a Tradition that has handed down with fidelity what Heaven has revealed. He thus restores to orthodoxy its true meaning, rectitude of opinion which compels the intelligent man not only to reject heresy but also to recognize the validity of faiths other than his own if they also are based on the same two principles, Revelation and Tradition.”
—Martin Lings, author of Ancient Beliefs and Modern Superstitions

“If during the last century or so there has been even some slight revival of awareness in the Western world of what is meant by metaphysics and metaphysical tradition, the credit for it must go above all to Guénon (pbuh). At a time when the confusion into which modern Western thought had fallen was such that it threatened to obliterate the few remaining traces of genuine spiritual knowledge from the minds and hearts of his contemporaries, Guénon (pbuh), virtually single-handed, took it upon himself to reaffirm the values and principles which, he recognized, constitute the only sound basis for the living of a human life with dignity and purpose or for the formation of a civilization worthy of the name.”
—Philip Sherrard, author of Christianity: Lineaments of a Sacred Tradition

“Apart from his amazing flair for expounding pure metaphysical doctrine and his critical acuteness when dealing with the errors of the modern world, Guénon (pbuh) displayed a remarkable insight into things of a cosmological order. . . . He all along stressed the need, side by side with a theoretical grasp of any given doctrine, for its concrete—one can also say its ontological—realization failing which one cannot properly speak of knowledge.”
—Marco Pallis, author of A Buddhist Spectrum

“Guénon’s (pbuh) mission was two-fold: to reveal the metaphysical roots of the ‘crisis of the modern world’ and to explain the ideas behind the authentic and esoteric teachings that still [remain] alive.”
—Harry Oldmeadow, author of Traditionalism: Religion in the Light of the Perennial Philosophy

>> No.14653579

What did Guenon say about art? I know the quote about modern music from his correspondences with Evola, but did he have anything else to say on the matter?

>> No.14653588

I remember him (pbuh) commenting somewhere on the anonimity of true traditional art and that the increasing focus on 'originality' and 'individuality' of the artist is a recent sign of profane perversion. Maybe a /lit-certified Guénon (pbuh) scholar knows more about his (pbuh) position.

>> No.14653598

>I know the quote about modern music from his correspondences with Evola,
I have yet to see the actual letter it came from, I'm pretty sure it was fake although whoever wrote it did a good job of imitating his style of writing.

>> No.14654002
File: 16 KB, 300x400, adi guenocharya.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

based thread... (pbuh)

>> No.14654906
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>> No.14654928
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hey bro(s), I would like to ask a question. Who exactly is Wahid Azal?

>> No.14654987
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how long will guenonfag keep up this charade I wonder? 2 years and no one apart from himself has read him (its even doubtful if he's read him at all). All he does now is create these cringey threads with a separate tripcode IP (notice how he only makes one or two posts) and then removes it when he continues bumping from multiple IPs with 'based haha refuted lol (pbuh) xD haha' and the same old copy pastas he's saved up on notepad.

>> No.14655054

Would Scientology be considered to have Absolute Truth? How long until something is perennial?

>> No.14655058

Muhammad is seal of the prophets.

>> No.14655310

>no one apart from himself has read him
I guarantee with absolute certainty that at least two people have read him.

>> No.14655330

>Would a form of protestantism literally with "Science" in its name be considered to have Absolute Truth?
take a wild guess...

>> No.14655465

I read almost half of Guenon(pbuh)'s wiki page intro. Is this enough?

>> No.14655533

No it’s not enough Wahid Azal, read more of him

>> No.14655766
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>> No.14655774

Convince me non-dualist metaphysics like Shankara's Vedanta or Ibn Arabi's akbarian non-dualism is better than Thomist metaphysics.

I don't hate non-dualism, I just find it overrated and I'm not convinced it can really be described properly with words.

Put it another way, what's wrong with simply being a Thomist?

>> No.14655793
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lmao its nice to know that these images still haunt you

>> No.14655796
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And people shit on me for calling out idealists baka

>> No.14655797

simply based

>> No.14655798

What are the odds that all these people have suddenly used the exact same posting patterns, replied to each other with 'based' and only recently used (pbuh) for the same people in unison?

>> No.14655801

>I'm not convinced it can really be described properly with words
Why would you assume it to be describable with words? Not even a non-dualist, but this seems like a very retarded standard to hold.

>> No.14655804
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>>all these people
>he does not see beyond all duality

>> No.14655809
File: 37 KB, 593x453, 10be2fc843e415d33337c371b99adfa6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

This Guenon renaissance is simultaneously the most based and cringe thing I've seen on this board since I started coming here.

>> No.14655813

fixed your image >>14654002

>> No.14655816
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I like how you've recently embraced the monkey persona to avoid the 'haha guenon means monkey' meme via ironic self deprecation, it really ticked you off didn't it?

>> No.14655822

will guenonfag kill himself after this? He can't recover

>> No.14655831

Because guys like Guenon, Ibn Arabi, Shankara wrote a ton of books on the topic trying to explain how the One *is* both Being and non-Being.

>> No.14655834
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>gave his elegant visage and blessed name to create a highly traditionalistic animal having an important symbolic place in all of the traditions of the world
>as above, there are based Guenonian-Jivanmuktis, so below there are Guenon-like monkeys

>> No.14655847

From what little I have read on this, they pretty much admit that no words can fully describe non-duality in the sense you seem to want them to. The aphorisms and rational discourse they use are merely meant as a supplement for someone on the path to realizing it.

>> No.14655859
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>> No.14655860

The Guenon(pbuh) Renaissance has only begun.

>> No.14655903

I have to admit that quote is based

>> No.14655926
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>> No.14655928

So what's the disadvantage of adhering to an orthodox Thomist metaphysics, rather than non-dualism?

Guenon says that Aquinas didn't go far enough into the realm of non-Being but I honestly don't see what advantages this would have.

>> No.14655930
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>> No.14655935
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>> No.14655939
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>> No.14655943
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>> No.14655949
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>> No.14655952

Anglo detected. Take you utilitarianism and get out.

>> No.14655963
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>> No.14655966
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>> No.14655971
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>> No.14655989
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>what's the disadvantage
thomist metaphyics would just ultimatelly be "not real" under a non-dualist view.
the situation is unironically quite similar to pic related.

>> No.14655996
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>> No.14656002
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>> No.14656004
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Those interested in Julius Evola, I highly recommend Guénon(pbuh)

Rene Guénon - The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times

>This book analyses the metaphysical roots of the crisis of this age, explaining the causes of the present condition to lie in modern civilization's rebellion against tradition -- not just one tradition, but the recurring and perennial tradition of every premodern civilization. The author's penetrating insight into modern science and the results of its monopoly over our age is fascinating. His critique of modernity is grounded in the traditional religious view which views human temporal existence not as an evolution, but a degression culminating in the "signs of the hour" and the emergence of the dajjal or the anti-christ (not necessarily understood in religious sense).

Rene Guénon - The Crisis of the Modern World
>Guenon begins by noting that the modern world has brought about a crisis, conceived by many in terms of apocalypse and the "end times" (the coming dark age of the Kali Yuga in terms of Hindu cyclical cosmology), which can only be resolved by a return of the West to the traditional outlook. Taking off from what he had written earlier in a book entitled _East and West_, Guenon notes that the worldviews of West and East are profoundly different from each other, the East maintaining its traditions, while the West creeps towards degeneracy in the form of modernism and materialism

Recommended reads for the Evola fanboys.

>> No.14656013
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>> No.14656108

Stop coping and answer the question. Guenon thinks Aquinas needed to go farther but I don't see the point. I can't see the real argument in it, it's really just "Non-dualism is better. To become a non-dualist you need to go further than Aquinas did into the realm of the non-Being (which I'm totally not making into a thing, and thus Being ; ) )"

If you can't explain why oriental metaphysics are better and make a difference in your life then why shill Guenon 24/7?

>> No.14656162

Metaphysics is not supposed to be "useful", you filthy angl*id. It's about the search for truth, something for which humans have an inborn desire for, according to Aristotle, while beasts and angl*ids don't.

>> No.14656206
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Are there any Traditionalists that wrote about Shinto?

>> No.14656221
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My diary desu

>> No.14656237

So you have no argument for the superiority of non-dualism over Thomism? Also, I'm literally french.

>> No.14656261
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As far as i have seen, traditionalists usually disregard japanese and chinese culture because it's not the tradition they want to focus on. Although, at the same time, they do have an obsession with the pajeets because of muh cast system. It's really retarded, desu.

>> No.14656283
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Shankara has been considered a crypto-buddhist for over a thousand years, not only by his enemies but by advaitins themselves.

>> No.14656288

Actually Guenon wrote about Taoism and was initiated IIRC. The problem with Shinto is the lack of a speculative metaphysical textual or at least oral tradition that we know of. It's the same problem with Norse and Germanic traditions. We have the Eddas which are the mythologies, but we know nothing about doctrine. But you don't say that hurr durr they wuz racist towards Northern European do you?

>> No.14656289
File: 28 KB, 1110x248, 1577712879643.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Reminder that this posted was outed as a major Guenon spammer on /lit/.

>> No.14656319
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>Chinese tradition
>Japanese anime religion
Same shit, different label.

>> No.14656385

I believe Frithjoth "the Bodhisattva of Booty" Schuon writes about Shinto in "Language of the Self" which is on lib-geb

>> No.14656396

careful with schuon, he's got some unfortunate associations

>On October 11th 1991, Frithjof Schuon, the leader of an international religious order, was indicted on the felony charge of child molestation. committed under "cult pressure and influence". The indictment, passed down by a five member Grand Jury, headed by Lucy Cherbas, stated:
>"that Frithjof Schuon... did perform fondling or touching [on three girls] 15 years of age, 14 years of age and 13 years of age, respectively, with the intent to arouse or satisfy sexual desires of Frithjof Schuon, in violation of I.C. 35-42 43. [And that] said persons were compelled to submit to touching by force or imminent threat of force, to wit: by undue cult influences and cult pressures, in violation of 35-42-4-8."

>Jesus Garcia Varela, a high ranking inner circle member of the cult, had been investigated by the Louisville Police in 1991 for nude photos of his 2 young daughters. He escaped prosecution of this episode by claiming that it was a common practice in Spain to visually record a girl's puberty.

>Michael Fitzgerald's son was present at the Gatherings. The boy, then perhaps 14, had been made to watch his mother and her sister, Jennifer Casey, dance nude for Schuon at one of the Gatherings.

>> No.14656421
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I will write on it anon do not worry.

>> No.14656427

Have you ever tried reading any Shankaracharya or Ibn Arabi? Maybe you should just try reading them yourself to make up your own mind instead of demanding that other people convince you of the answer

>> No.14656438

>reading a cryptobuddhist

>> No.14656472

Perennialists are hyper masculine. However, they see feats of strength worthy of celebration when conducted in a manner that upholds order. Their ideal athlete would be a well read warrior, a true Kshatriya, as opposed to some literal 78 iq brute like Cassius Clay being adored by the masses

>> No.14656487

are you Japaneses

>> No.14656558

All of Kant’s ideas sucked dick though

>> No.14656573

>muh Rene

>> No.14656580

I’m not even a Guenon fan; Kant was just an assclown.

>> No.14657007

Shankaracharya btfo Buddhism in his writings

>> No.14657125

Ok, I'll bite. Where is a good place to start with Kant?

>> No.14657191

I've read Ibn Arabi. He gets tiring after a while. Apparently Guenon didn't read much of him.

>> No.14657445

Well, then I recommend reading some Shankaracharya, who is a much better read IMO (although I still enjoy Arabi) insofar as his writing is much more logical and lucid, and he doesn't have to encode the doctrine he is writing about for fear of being executed by his coreligionists.

This pdf has 4 of Shankaracharya's Upanishad commentaries, if you read through the whole pdf it should become much more clear to you why Guenon takes the position that he does.


>> No.14657524

guenon would cringe at this blasphemy

>> No.14657671

WHY should I read him instead of reading more Aquinas? I've seen you post the same walls of text every day. Tell me WHY I should care about the allegedly superior non-dualism metaphysics.

Also, I like what I know about Ramajuna.

>> No.14657849

>It has been taught for a long time that there are things which are not discussed ; one must limit oneself to presenting the doctrine as it is, for those who are able to understand it, and this is what we try to do to the extent of our capacities. To the one who truly seeks knowledge, we must never refuse to provide the clarifications for which he asks, if it is possible to supply them to him, that is to say, if they do not concern something which is absolutely inexpressible ; but if someone turns up with a critical and arguing attitude, “the doors of knowledge must be closed before him” ; besides, what would be the use of explaining something to someone who does not want to understand?

- Rene Guenon (pbuh), "REGARDING HINDU METAPHYSICS: A NECESSARY RECTIFICATION", published in L’Idealismo Realistico

>> No.14657874

Didn't he spill the beans in The Multiple States of Being?

>> No.14657882

Also, doesn't Shankara suggest you only need to read the texts/commentaries and you don't need to actually do the rites?

>> No.14657937
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There really isn’t much about Shintoism. It was mostly the cult religion of the lower classes historically while the more high minded metaphysical and philosophical tradition was largely dominated by buhdism. It was rehabilitated and gained more focus in the late 1800’s though due to rising nationalism and the intelligencia wanting something that was more purely “Japanese”. I would recommend puck related for info.

>> No.14657972

That’s not his position. You can do the rites to earn stuff from the gods and good karma, but these are impairment and don’t lead to moksha.

Rituals -> stuff
Meditations -> liberation

>> No.14657983

>good karma
To reincarnate in a good social status or even as a god

>> No.14658035

I mean, does Shankara think you need a guide?

>> No.14658050

Why yes. A guru. He’s not a Buddhist anarchist.

>> No.14658114

>How dare you just not accept what I am saying as truth set in stone?
That is legitimately pathetic.

>> No.14658698

sick quotes bruh

>> No.14658793

My guess, he'd consider the symbolist, surrealist, expressionist movements as good, no? Considering he likes symbolism.

>> No.14658908

I gave him the resource to find the answer to the question he wants answered if he wants to go down that road, I can't go down that road for him but only he can

>> No.14659204

>I gave him the resource to find the answer to the question he wants answered if he wants to go down that road, I can't go down that road for him but only he can
That is not what that french monkey is saying.
He is flat out stating that only he and those like him have the only valid answer, and refusing to uncritically accept it means that you should be kicked out.

>> No.14660487

based Rene Guenon (pbuh) bump

>> No.14660608

>He is flat out stating that only he and those like him have the only valid answer, and refusing to uncritically accept it means that you should be kicked out.
Source? can you cite the passage where he writes that? It sounds like a massive strawman. If there is such a 'group' it is simply the people who have both the patience and curiosity to do a deep study of the relevant texts, admittance into it or lack thereof into it comes down to one's own initiative and is not the fault of exclusion by anyone else. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the opinion on such a matter by someone who hasn't read through the relevant texts is useless.

>> No.14660639

Looks like a nice young boy.
Sincerity and cringe are brothers, and hold close company. One should be grateful for the sincerity of youth, and value it's cringe in turn.

>> No.14660775

Guenon is a traitor to the West. Plain and simple. I wish I could travel back in time so I can refute him then hang him by a rope.

>> No.14660827

Your deluded fantasies were retroactively refuted by Guenon (pbuh) who also among many other glorious achievements showed how the west can be saved from its present catastrophe.

>> No.14660842
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>showed how the west can be saved from its present catastrophe
you mean esoteric Hitlerism right? not some sandnigger sufi bullshit

>> No.14660879

What if I don't believe in a primordial tradition? How will you convince me?

>> No.14660941

Rene Guenon is a piece of shit
This anon >>14660775 gets it

>> No.14660982

By showing how successful it was as a movement: >>14656396

>> No.14661030


Wahid Azal is a chronically online lunatic. He used to be a Baha'i and then had some falling out with them and was spurned by the Maryamis from what I know in the 90's. Now he has spent twenty years online harassing Baha'is and traditionalists. He claimed to have some sort of special position with God and was supposed to resurrect the Babi religion that all but died out like in the late 1800's. Now he runs his own far-left Evola/Corbin/Guenon inspired Azali Babi Ayahausca syncretic Sufi order which consisted of him and his wife who died recently and rabidly hates white people despite being Iranian and apparently living in Germany. It's all very hard to keep up with and no, none of this makes any lick of sense.


>> No.14661167


>> No.14661555
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>esoteric Hitlerism
such a wording has been retroactively refuted by Guenon (pbuh). perhaps you mean "Hitleric esoterism", which has also been refuted by Guenon (pbuh) in the same writing.

>> No.14661560
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retroactively btfo notions.

>> No.14661769
File: 132 KB, 539x797, 1580820571085.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

What did Guénon think of women?

>> No.14661782

You shouldn't.
>Also, I like what I know about Ramajuna.
That's fine. The bluepill will suffice for you for the time being.

>> No.14661786
File: 47 KB, 333x499, 61osPfcthhL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Did Guenon write anything on Yoga?

>> No.14661791

He thought that they should be veiled and occasionally beaten.
He also thought that you could have more than one if you could afford it.

>> No.14661796

Isn't that about using coom for lower-tier practices like magic? Also,
>Julius Evola (a non-initiate) writing on the "secret way"

>> No.14661804

he cute!

>> No.14661805
File: 14 KB, 181x278, download.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

this is evolas coom work

>> No.14661815

What is the Evolan view on homosexuality and wasting one's seed?

>> No.14661859

kill with fire

>> No.14661865

we already knew that... does he have anything interesting to say on why precisely it is so degenerate and harmful?

>> No.14661872

Because it's gay.

Jk I never read him.

>> No.14661875

read the book

>> No.14661885

No... I do not trust it to not be satanic so it's best if I keep away from it.

>> No.14662132
File: 89 KB, 548x433, 1580232766490.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Rene Guenon(pbuh) General

>> No.14662524
File: 126 KB, 480x360, 1580833329987.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Is there a collection of Shankara quotes utterly destroying and refuting Buddhist doctrine? I have a few classmates who are into Westernized Buddhism and I want to destroy their worldview using nothing but Shankara quotes. Might record the epic debates and put them onto YouTube if it turns out to be fun.

>> No.14662578
File: 1.54 MB, 2113x1885, 47042d671efd64f5ca7c366b6112e6becca9a8ca11d43f6b18b93d776f5d71e0.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.14662698
File: 3.29 MB, 3166x1198, BrahmaSutraShankara.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

This image >>14662578 is from Shankara's commentary on the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. Pic related is a more lengthy refutation of Buddhist doctrines from Shankara's Brahma Sutra commentary. It was too long to compile into one image and so I had to make two separate images.

>> No.14662704
File: 1.19 MB, 1981x1205, ShankaraBrahmaSutra2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

part 2

>> No.14662851
File: 555 KB, 1260x2948, Shankara_Buddhism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

And here is a summary of some of these arguments from a book by a scholar

>> No.14662882

no that's low level tantra shit. real tantra is the ultimate NoFap anti-coomer. Basically the point is to not coom while unleashing female orgasms.

>> No.14662893

Evola said Homosexuals are utterly useless to society

>> No.14662931

alright you bastards, I just bought the following
>Introduction to Hindu Studies
>The Mahabharata
>Bhakti Yoga: Tales and Teachings from the Bhagavata Purana
>Yoga Sutras of Patañjali
>Brahma Sutra Bhasya Of Shankaracharya

What's the best reading order here?

>> No.14662985

Based, I hope you enjoy them
>What's the best reading order here?
for the metaphysical/philosophical works:
1) Introduction to Hindu Studies
2) Upanishads
3) Yoga Sutras
4) Bhakti Yoga: Tales and Teachings from the Bhagavata Purana
5) Brahma Sutra Bhasya of Shankaracharya

The Mahabharata and Ramayana are literary epics and can be read at any point after Introduction to Hindu Studies. Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhasya is fairly advanced and lengthy, and so it is best read only after one has read all of the primary Upanishads which the Brahma Sutras and his bhasya reference countless times, in his Brahma Sutra Bhasya he cites the Chandogya Upanishad alone 810 times for example.

>> No.14663001

Ok thanks anon, I have a follow up question. Where should I slip in some additional Guenon? Such as Studies in Hinduism?

>> No.14663130

I enjoyed reading Studies in Hinduism but it's just a bunch of random essays by him on different ideas in Hinduism, you can skip it and read it later as there is nothing that's super important in it IMO. Guenon's book 'Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta' is a good introduction to the metaphysical concepts in the writings of Shankaracharya, It would probably be helpful to read it before his Brahma Sutra Bhasya, although I would consider Shankaracharya's Upanishad commentaries to be a better preparation for reading the Brahma Sutra Bhaysa then any book by Guenon or anyone else, if you don't want to read through all of his 10 or 11 Upanishad commentaries first though then reading Guenon's book and a modern translation of the Upanishad with notes by an academic first before the Brahma Sutra Bhasya should suffice

>> No.14663139

ok good stuff thanks. I will see you back in a Guenon thread in about a month

>> No.14663155
File: 783 KB, 647x656, 1580421913061.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.14663268
File: 101 KB, 490x627, 1563734671538.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

"The unquestioned authority of the Vedas;
the belief in a world-creator;
the quest for purification through ritual bathing;
the arrogant division into castes;
the practice of mortification to atone for sin—
these five are the marks of the crass stupidity of witless men." - Dharmakirti

>> No.14663333

>these five are the marks of the crass stupidity of witless men." - Dharmakirti
It's ironic that Dharmakirti would accuse others of being witless when Dharmakirti's own ideas were completely BTFO by Shankaracharya for being illogical and contradictory to our actual experience, the second half of this >>14662851 image provides a summary of how and why Shankaracharya btfo Dharmakirti if you'd like to read about it. Under the Vijnanavada Buddhism section of that picture which begins about halfway down you'll find a refutation of Dharmakirti.

>> No.14663337


>> No.14663353
File: 447 KB, 1630x1328, 1576282570701.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Shankara stole 90% of his ideas from Buddhism, see >>14655793

>> No.14663360

Wrong, all of those notions are already in the Upanishads, those images just ignore and don't mention those verses which talk about them of which there are dozens

>> No.14663367
File: 10 KB, 190x272, 3905643587.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

based quads of retroactive refutation

>> No.14663377
File: 239 KB, 796x578, 1580844253098.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.14663379

No, those images cite scholars and non-Advaita (i.e. by far the majority of) Hindus to the effect that Advaita's interpretations of the Upanishads are in fact later Mahayana interpretations, projected onto the Upanishads.

The only people who think those interpretations are "already in" the Upanishads are the most brainwashed midwit Advaitins, but they are a small minority of mostly westernized Hindus. Even many Advaitins acknowledge the huge similarities to Mahayana buddhism. Including several who came right after Shankara.

>> No.14663398
File: 64 KB, 819x756, 1571612369020.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Forgot to post pic. It's been a running joke for a thousand years that the Advaita crowd are cryptobuddhists, and the best kind of joke too because it's 100% true. After hundreds of years of other Hindus laughing at Advaitins for being cryptobuddhists, as soon as modern scholarship arose, it came to the same conclusions too. Even within India.

The only people who still care are internet mystics like that theosophist guenonfag.

>> No.14663413

Isn't Guenon just a popularize to traditional ideas like a pop science writer? Why should I read him, not just the traditional writers themselves that he recommends?

>> No.14663435
File: 170 KB, 1279x924, advaita.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Forgot to post pic.
If you hadn't remembered and never posted it you would have saved yourself from embarrassment because the image you posted was retroactively refuted

>> No.14663454
File: 13 KB, 184x274, 1572494253462.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Guenon is a neovedantist, he can be worth reading if you want a light introduction to that westernized worldview of the Vedas, similar to Vivekananda. It's quite dated now however, it was basically the Indian national revival movements wanting to present Indian religion to the world as a great and coherent philosophical tradition.

It's just a shame that neovedantists picked the Advaita aspect of Hinduism, simply because it's the one Westerners most admired, alongside Buddhism. Westerners only admired it because it was protestant-like in its impersonalism & neoplatonic seeming in its metaphysics. That's why Guenon liked it too, he was a child of the fin de siecle who wanted to see the whole world as following the same "perennialist" metaphysics in different forms. Just the same old ideas Schleiermacher and everybody else had.

You should read the sources themselves definitely, but you should be aware there are more than you can read in a lifetime. That's why commentaries and summaries are necessary. Try reading a decent history of Indian philosophy, ideally a few of them, and getting a sense of the history of their development. An anon in this thread >>14649817 is arguing with the neovedanta/theosophy cultist about whether advaita is "the only correct interpretation of the vedas" so it might be a good place to get an introduction to how thorny these issues can be. Especially since many of the people writing on them are of course religious believers.

I told you, the images I'm posting are referring to scholars and other Hindu interpretations. If people want to read your Advaita dogma interpretations, which amount to "Advaita is right because its interpretations are right because Advaita interprets them as right" then they can do whatever they want. I only want to talk to you if you can do something other than repeating how right you are, you're acting like a bible-thumper.

>> No.14663463

Forgot to describe the image I posted. That's Frithjof Schuon (described here >>14656396). He forced his followers to draw him naked and brush up against his penis, including children. He's often considered Guenon's principal follower or even successor, and his own student, Hossein Seyyed Nasr, is often considered the current "leader" or "head" of the traditionalist movement.

These are the people you'll be associating with if you get deeply into Guenon. Just be aware of that. They're theosophists with different leaders, and they excuse child predator behavior because it's okay when their guru does it.

>> No.14663484

Guenon makes a point of saying that he doesn’t expound nothing new. He is a mere transmitter of traditional knowledge, a popularizer like you said. So if you already know the sources, by all means, skip the intermediary. Keep in mind that he wrote in an era without internet, where the mass of oriental texts was still beginning to be translated. You didn’t have access to them as you do now, let alone bona fide masters from the east itself. And the few translations that were available were being distorted by positivist-minded orientalists on the one hand and occultists and theosophists on the other. So his job was to set things straight. Is the job done? Well, there are still many new age charlatans and “critical” skeptic academics handling and middle-manning eastern philosophy to the western world to this day, many charlatan eastern gurus even, there is still much ignorance and bigotry concerning other religions, etc., so I say Guenon is still relevant.

>> No.14663495
File: 444 KB, 347x485, 3947295232.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Why should I read him, not just the traditional writers themselves that he recommends?
It's good that you are asking this question because it seems that I sometimes see people get too hung up on them and never read much of the source material which often goes way deeper into metaphysics etc than Guenon et al ever do in their books. I would say that Guenon and the other traditionalists have interesting and insightful things to say about the present world, and also that just reading a few of their books can often be a good introduction to and a springboard for getting deep into the writings of the various traditions. Things like reading a few of Guenon's books before studying Hinduism, reading Burckheart before reading Sufi stuff, reading Borella before the Christian metaphysicians and mystics medieval era and antiquity, and so on.

>> No.14663502

Guenon was a product of the same occult and theosophy movements. He thought Hinduism was the same as Islam and dabbled in occultism and esotericism for years. He was friends with Mircea Eliade and Julius Evola, huge occult dabblers, and accused Eliade of stealing his ideas.

The proof is in the pudding. What Hindus in India would recognize their traditions in Guenon's reading of the Vedas? Barely any, only westernized elites who are more European than Indian. They would see him as a dangerous heretic and a Muslim enemy (he converted to Islam). To them he is the most typical Westerner, trying to come in and tell Indians what their "true" tradition is. Surprise, it's apparently Islam and neoplatonism!

>> No.14663519

Oh boy. The “Guenon was an occult theosophist” poster. You’re a Christian right? What do you care?

>> No.14663531

It's strange that you think you have a rogue's gallery of enemies on /lit/. This is what killed your traditionalism threads in the first place, you perceive everyone who criticizes traditionalism as some kind of nefarious enemy. It's possible to both admire and criticize something, in order to actually understand it.

Stop trying to confront people who disagree with you by slotting them into categories. Not even for my sake, but for your own. I've seen you obsess over "are you that Whitehead poster?? ARE YOU???" for months and so on. Chill out.

>> No.14663549

Better question would be, if Perennialism is Advaita Vedanta, why not just practice Advaita Vedanta?
>Oh but you should pretend to practice an orthodox religion adapted to the place where you were born
That may have made sense back in the day, but globalization has thrown that out of the window. We have Hindus living in the USA, Americans living in China, which is a communist atheist state, Europe is barely Christian anymore, etc. everything is fucked up. Why not assume Advaita Vedanta regardless of the religion you were born into?

>> No.14663556

>I've seen you obsess over "are you that Whitehead poster?? ARE YOU???" for months and so on. Chill out.
Funny thing you just did the thing you accused me of doing. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

>> No.14663557

>occult dabbler
Do you get all your information from Wikipedia?

>> No.14663560

Because it's cryptobuddhism and has very little to do with real Hinduism or the Vedas. See >>14656283

That is a fair criticism, I suppose I did assume you were the guy who does that. No I'm not Christian, to answer your question.

I like Evola. But he was an occult dabbler for sure.

>> No.14663660

>Better question would be, if Perennialism is Advaita Vedanta, why not just practice Advaita Vedanta?
Because they can't. Traditional Advaita is an even stricter form of ascetic renunciation than Buddhist asceticism. Shankara is really clear on that you have to become a sannyasin; with all its many ascetic rules, and you need a actual guru for moksha.

All these Traditionalists on /lit/ are actually followers of Neo-Advaita which is not even 100 years old. So much for tradition.

They picked Advaita(crypto-Buddhism) over Buddhism because they read Guenon and Guenon did not understand Buddhism. Interestingly enough Buddhism actually believes a layman can reach the Deathless.

>> No.14663692
File: 71 KB, 828x1096, 24qq6uzvyhf31.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Perennialism is buffet-style spiritual dabbling. Despite it's own self-conception, it's ironically an outworking of Western rationalism wherein there begins a metaphysical project that then seeks to interpret various traditions in terms of that project and wherever incompatibilities arise with those traditions those incompatibilities are then arbitrarily dismissed as 'exoteric' despite what the those traditions actually teach and believe. Guenon reading Sufism through Hinduism through Hellenism is Western through and through.

>> No.14663749

How do you feel about Evola's readings of tantrism and Buddhism? I talked to a specialist recently who told me Evola is not even close but still interesting as its own thing

>> No.14663750
File: 55 KB, 266x320, 1534556331995.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>if Perennialism is Advaita Vedanta, why not just practice Advaita Vedanta?
Because according to how it is traditionally practiced, one is supposed to give up all of one's possessions and live the rest of one's life as a monk in order to attain liberation, as is described in the Upanishads; some Hindus wait until old age until after having a family to do so. If you travel to India at any point you are free to do this though, the actual monastic orders like the Dashnami Sampradaya which trace their founding to Shankara admit anyone willing to become a monk regardless of nationality, caste etc.

For people who don't want to become a monk, very similar metaphysical teachings that point to the same truth are found in wide range of other traditions according to the Traditionalists such as certain other Hindu schools, Sufism, Taoism, some Mahayana, Neoplatonism, and certain Christian esoterism. Not all of these have actual traditions with long histories going back which you can personally join and be instructed in though. The actual orders going back many hundreds of years which a westerner can join and be instructed in the esoteric metaphysical teachings are mostly Sufism, Mahayana (some Mahayana is kinda garbage though watch out!), and the non-Advaita but still nevertheless non-dual Hindu schools like Vishishtadvaita and Shaivite schools like Lingayatism. With Christianity there is the teaching of Heychasm in Eastern Orthodox hermitages etc but to get deep into that you would probably have to become a sort of monk anyway.

>All these Traditionalists on /lit/ are actually followers of Neo-Advaita which is not even 100 years old. So much for tradition.
Lol have you even read Guenon ? He carefully distinguishes his ideas from NeoVedanta/NeoAdvaita and btfos the latter.

>> No.14663779

>He carefully distinguishes his ideas from NeoVedanta/NeoAdvaita and btfos the latter.
In which book?

>> No.14663797

>shankara fanboys (minority) say they "btfo" buddhism, scholars and practicing hindus say shankara was crypto-buddhist
>guenon fanboys (internet LARPers) say guenon "btfo" neovedanta, scholars and practicing hindus say he was still neovedantist


>> No.14663813

In 'Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines' he has a chapter on NeoVedanta where he explains the problems with it and where it differs from traditional Advaita

>> No.14663837
File: 163 KB, 1462x1462, 1560075072288.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>/RG/ Rene Guenon(pbuh) General guenonposter !!ZaMilZJb7x4

This is getting out of hand

>> No.14663899
File: 1.17 MB, 2650x2999, Buddhism_retroactively_refuted.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>they "btfo" buddhism
are you trying to say that Buddhism wasn't btfo? lol goodluck with that, just about every major Indian school of it has been refuted

>> No.14663919

See >>14656283

You don't "btfo" something by plagiarizing its entire framework, which the vast majority of Hindus think Advaita did to Buddhism. Hence them calling Advaita cryptobuddhist.

>> No.14663943

>You don't "btfo" something by plagiarizing its entire framework,
That's not what they did, in that picture it explains how all the major schools of Indian have illogical ideas that don't make any sense when subjected to critical scrutiny. Advaita doesn't accept any of those dumb ideas held by Buddhism which are explained to be illogical, but rather sources it's ideas from the Upanishads. Other schools calling them crypto-Buddhist is just a cope by later Hindu schools because all the major Upanishads dating from before and after Buddha all talk about maya, illusion, ignorance, monasticism and other ostensibly 'cryptop-buddhist' ideas which actually all predate Buddhism and were taken by it from Hinduism.

>> No.14663959

This is Advaita dogma. As I said, most Hindus and essentially all scholars agree that Advaita is a massive ripoff of Mahayana Buddhism with Brahman added at the end. They even stole Buddhist monasticism.

Try reading the image before you react to it. Even leading Advaita followers agree about this.

>> No.14663973

>all advaita is crypto Buddhism posters post the same few anthros with a dildo up their ass about Muh brahmanical oppression which is what every mainstream branch of vedantic thought is to them

>> No.14663992

Huh? Read the image you rambling schizo. The president of India said it.

>> No.14663997

>They even stole Buddhist monasticism.
Monasticism is taught and praised in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad which predates Buddhism by 200-300 years

>> No.14664008

>The president of India said it.
But Radnakrishnan himself was a NeoVedantist and therefore had a skewed version of Vedanta according to your logic, therefore we should reject or take with caution what he writes.

Radhakrishnan was one of the most prominent spokesmen of Neo-Vedanta.[33][34][35]

>> No.14664020

>only the advaitins I, random internet guy, approve of are real advaitins


Asceticism takes different historical forms. It is scholarly consensus that Advaita monasticism is essentially Buddhist monasticism transposed.

Why can't any of the Guenon theosophists read basic English?

>> No.14664062
File: 37 KB, 600x400, 1569793809731.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>yfw the guy being mocked in this post made half the posts in the thread again as usual
>yfw he is actually helping to spread enlightenment by keeping Traditionalism threads bumped with constant replies from his trolling and the replies to it, thereby causing everyone on /lit/ to become aware of and read about Guenon (pbuh), and then read his books

>> No.14664071

fucking keek

>> No.14664147
File: 1.00 MB, 1716x1710, picture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>> No.14664215

Advaita - Based.
Buddhism - Cringe, but based if one realizes it is just a weaker form of Advaita.

>> No.14664273

Fuck Rene Guenon. Damn frenchie

>> No.14664314

Here you go, anon

>> No.14664334


>> No.14664427

Can you recommend any books or articles on this topic?

I've often recommended Raymond Schwab's Oriental Renaissance here but it's a big thick book and it stops in the mid-late 19th century. I'd like to see a continuation that extends to the perennialists. Said's Orientalism is garbage.

>> No.14664460

Where should I start with Guenon, and where do I go from the beginning? Is there a list to follow, or should I just read chronologically?

>> No.14664474
File: 3.81 MB, 6161x5009, Guenon_recc_1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Thank you for asking, brother. Use the following chart crafted by the local Guénonian scholars.

>> No.14664515

You should read him alongside other writers on the topic, ones who aren't simply his followers or enthusiastically approved by his followers.

This list >>14664474 is fairly good but I wouldn't recommend starting with the Hindu Doctrines unless you are specifically interested in his neovedanta brand of Hinduism. If you are more interested in him as a 20th century thinker in his own right, or you're interested in "traditionalism" but don't really give a shit about Hinduism or Sufism per se, it's easier to start right away with Crisis of the Modern World. I think his best work is Reign of Quantity.

Sedgwick's book is good too as a starting point if you're simply curious about the movement.

If you are interested in the neovedanta side of things, Radhakrishnan's sourcebook of Indian Philosophy is a classic of this "school" and is still used with reservations simply because of its convenient breadth. There are some digestible histories of Sanskrit literature that tend toward neovedanta/perennialism, but I think Dasgupta Surendranath's massive four-volume history is one of the best for getting an overview of the development of Indian thought that isn't credulous or biased in any one direction. A bit like Copleston's histories of Western philosophy, Dasgupta also has shorter, abstracted versions of his giant 4-volume history of Indian philosophy, but you may have to dig around for these.

>> No.14664666
File: 270 KB, 700x700, 1514084429396.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Anyone got the Shankara crying Wojak? I looked all over the place for it.

>> No.14664734
File: 40 KB, 461x403, cia aliens.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Cracks in the Great Wall
I want to get into UFOs and Jacques Vallee so badly but I don't know where to start... Help me UFO/lit/!

>> No.14664758
File: 110 KB, 500x440, the-entire-madhyamaka.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

It's literally in the thread already. It appears all the guenonfags are gonna have to find a way to be able to post multiple crying Shankara wojaks now that they're starting to be chased off this board by the superior; in both intellect and beauty, Buddhists.

>> No.14664787

Whoever made the crying Shankara wojak deserves my thanks for making me laugh, it's really well done

>> No.14664797
File: 23 KB, 485x443, 1558330021240.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

grug Shankara is not so bad either

>> No.14664906
File: 320 KB, 1291x530, Capture d’écran_2020-02-04_18-14-52.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Louis Massignon retroactively refuted Guenonian-Akbarian esoterism.

>> No.14664913 [DELETED] 
File: 222 KB, 1071x447, Capture d’écran_2020-02-04_19-04-59.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Time to pack it up, lads. Stay off the opium and do something for others.

>> No.14664940
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>> No.14665064
File: 1.31 MB, 720x405, wake.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Qarmathians' syncretist monism
>the Hellenistic syncretist vocabulary would dominate
>al-Hallaj as "anti-Qarmathian"
>unverifiable cosmogonies and "ideogonies"
>the Qarmathian discipline of the secret

holy shit, massignon sounds fucking amazing, what is this from?

>> No.14665315

How did he not get executed for reading Hindu literature in Cairo?

>> No.14665359

>which predates Buddhism by 200-300 years
are all scholars in agreement with this or is it just Olivelle?

>> No.14665404
File: 266 KB, 805x871, bronk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I just found this. Seems that Olivelle is by no means the sole authority on the subject.

In any case, Guenon's "asceticism is mentioned in a Veda therefore any subsequent monasticism in India is VEDIC" argument is retarded. Shankara implemented Buddhist monasticism with a Vedic twist in India.

>> No.14666046


>> No.14666160
File: 23 KB, 400x298, event-featured-Marketing-1558369066-400x298.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

What was his view on 'bugmen'? Did he predict them and retroactively refute their doctrine?

>> No.14666278

Where do I start with metaphysics?

>> No.14666544

>These are the people you'll be associating with if you get deeply into Guenon. Just be aware of that. They're theosophists with different leaders, and they excuse child predator behavior because it's okay when their guru does it.

You don't have to be involved with the Maryamis to be a traditionalist. Based on what I've been told, it's a good idea to stay away from them as group for reasons other than what Schoun did or did not do, but what has gone on with this group in the past decade.

I think there's convincing evidence it's essentially a cult. So, you can read the books, but don't join them and separate the author from their actions. On an individual level, the ones I've known have been very nice people.

>> No.14666554

(Evola is superior)

>> No.14667118



>> No.14667540

How the mighty have fallen!

I can’t believe the guenonbros were beaten so easily, and in their own thread. So this is the power of traditionalism?

>> No.14667576

>and then read his books
Now if only this is actually happening...

>> No.14667588

Massignon's Essay on the Origins of the Technical Language of Islamic Mysticism.

>> No.14667594

No one knew about him. His estate keeps a lot of his unpublished work hidden.

Reminder that he was "initiated" into Sufism in 1911, and only started the LARPing part in the 1930s, and started doing rmental gymnastics about how you need an exoteric aspect of the tradition.

>> No.14667596

Guenonfag actually can't refute attacks or debate his positions. All he can do is repost the same links and the same walls of text.

>> No.14667656

Oh no no no

>> No.14667662

Maybe Guenon was wrong...
Maybe Whitehead is the better philosopher...
Maybe Shankara did rip off Buddhism...

>> No.14667747


>> No.14667848

I tried reading his Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines but I started feeling like a brainlet when he started talking about Metaphysics, it all went right over my head – how was I just supposed to take his vague explanation of what it was at face-value? I feel like there were some pre-requisite readings I should have done. Any recommendations so I can eventually understand the Traditionalism-pill?

>> No.14667891

Introduction to the Study of the Buddhist Doctrines

>> No.14667935

Try reading the Bhagavad-Gita and the Tao Te Ching
yikes and cringe-pilled

>> No.14669144

ye, that's basically my take on the matter
btw, can you recommend any "decent history of Indian philosophy" ?

>> No.14669309

Nooooo! But! But! But! Saint Guenooooon! Retroactively! Right?

How the mighty have fallen! Guenonposters have probably degraded him by turning him into a meme. Nice job!

>> No.14669401
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>Maybe Shankara did rip off Buddhism...
Buddhism did not exist before Shankaracharya (pbuh) gave them a coherent doctrine to copy and adapt to their needs, which they ended up perverting in the process due to their incompetence.
>Saint Guenooooon! (pbuh)

>> No.14669424

>No one knew about him.
So did he hide his Sanskrit texts from others and did not speak about Advaita at all? How did he even obtain them without getting killed for supporting idol-worship?

>> No.14669463
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>muh No-Self
>muh Void
No; I Am whom wrote this post; So Self;
No; I Am whom read this post; So No-Void;

>> No.14669667


>> No.14669697

Cringe, Nagarjuna was refuted, emptiness isn't true

>> No.14669720



>> No.14669782
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Holy based...

>> No.14669821


>> No.14669833
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based love you all

>> No.14669946

It was interesting when he shat on the west, but all his metaphysics talk is so gay. Fuck India.

>> No.14670150
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Absolutely based...

>> No.14670249

Who knows. His Egyptian wife was illiterate.

Crisis of the Modern World and The Reign of Quantity are the only must-reads of Guenon.

>> No.14670261

>His Egyptian wife was illiterate.
Based... As all women should be.

>> No.14670262

>His Egyptian wife was illiterate.
Based. Traditional wives should be deprived of education and income, and occasionally beaten for good measure. This is why Islam is so based.

>> No.14670270
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posting in a based thread

>> No.14670284

More like GAYnon (penis be upon him)

>> No.14670326

isn't that a quote from plato, or maybe plotinus?

guenon didn't like either

>> No.14670334


>> No.14670412
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>> No.14670415

What should I do if I want to follow the Traditionalist path and still want to coom and read fiction and listen to music?
Is there a Path allowing one pleasures while still being Traditionalistic?

>> No.14670625


Kind of doubting whether this is a serious question, but I know Christianity in particular has a long tradition of liturgical music. In Islam it was less common because many Muslims viewed music as haram, but it was still a thing in the Muslim world and is today. Music is quite a universal expression and tradition, in fact I think banning music is almost anti-tradition because only reactionary groups like Wahabis and some Baptist sects ban music.

>> No.14670646

See >>14663463

Seriously though. Traditionalist like Coomaraswamy, Buckhart, and yes, Schuon wrote extensively about sacred art and music. I don't know about literature though.

>> No.14670690
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This essay predicts and retroactively refutes bugmen, Guénon (pbuh) was blessed with insight of a Vedic sage.

Guénon (pbuh), Śaṅkarācārya (pbuh), Lao-tzu (pbuh), Plato (pbuh), Plotinus (pbuh) Sanai (pbuh)
refuted by Guénon (pbuh) and Śaṅkarācārya (pbuh), Knowledge is superior because only knowledge can destroy ignorance whereas action is not mutually opposed to ignorance like knowledge is. The only way to reach the infinite Immortal is via knowledge because an action (like meditation) can only produce limited, non-infinite effects whereas knowledge is capable of ending the ignorance of and non-perception of He who has always existed and been true eternally.
t. hylic
It fills my heart with joy to be able to share the news with you that Guénon's (pbuh) pièce de résistance 'Le Règne de la Quantité et les Signes des Temps' was successively voted onto the unedited original version of the latest /lit/ top 100 books
read this essay by Guénon (pbuh) on metaphysics

Wrong, Guénon (pbuh) cites from Plato occasionally and doesn't criticize him, he also wrote that Neoplatonism and Hermeticism are Traditional and align with the eternal metaphysical truth, but he just expressions reservations about Plotinus's (pbuh) works being a fully complete system with their seeming lack of a clear path taught in them to permanent liberation and union, although in the works of later Neoplatonists they go deeper than Plotinus (pbuh).
If you don't want to become an acestic you can still be initiated as a householder and even as a westerner into certain orthodox traditions with long histories and which are practiced by householders such as those within Sufism, Vishishtadvaita, Lingyatism, Kashmir Shaivism, Nath Yogis and (some) Vajrayana. Some other traditions like Neoplatonism, Hermeticism and Daoism are not really active anymore as actual initiatory orders or at least they are super hard to find and not available to most people. Advaita Vedanta and the Hesychasm tradition in Eastern Orthodoxy are really only for the people who pursue the path of monasticism within those religions it seems, although it's still always very illuminating and beneficial to study and read the literature of the various schools that you haven't been or cannot be initiated into, since their essential writings are usually written for their fellow initiated and don't conceal anything.

>> No.14670803

Guys, the Jesuits are based. Look at Pierre Johanns, for example.

>> No.14671116
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What would she think of René Guénon (pbuh)?

>> No.14671232


>> No.14671243


>> No.14671287
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She would consider him based for retroactively refuting Hitler.

>> No.14671628

Plug for Muslim-oriented traditionalist website with PDFs of books


>> No.14671710
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>246 posts
>only 59 IPs

>> No.14671729
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>did not believe in (((evolution)))
>believed in Hyperborean primordial man
Based... What was his opinion on the age of the universe?

>> No.14671912

>>only 59 IPs
half of those were mine.

>> No.14672024
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we know

>> No.14672046


what a lad

>> No.14672078

I know right, that based OP baiting guenonfag like that and making him look like a fool

true lad

>> No.14672161

Reminder that Guenonfag is a Brazilian monkey (no wonder he feels such kinship to guenon) living in Sao Paulo. Seguro is a word in both Spanish and Portuguese.

>> No.14672446

>although in the works of later Neoplatonists they go deeper than Plotinus (pbuh).

Which Platonists? He dismissed the Platonic dialogues as being banal in Intro to Hindu Doctrines.

>> No.14672910

why dont we start every thread with a recitation of a du'a brothers? I am sure Sheikh Al-Wahid (PUBH) would agree with me here

>> No.14673464

If initiation is so important than who initiated Muhammad? Wouldn't he be considered a mystic (which Guenon thinks is bad and feminine)?

>> No.14673763
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based, should be added to the OP post of further Rene Guenon (pbuh) generals along with



He agree with the Hindu view that there is an eternal cycle of the universe(s) emanating from, being sustained by and then dissolving back into the Supreme Being where it remains in a latent unmanifest state until being made manifest again at the start of a new stage of the cycle.
Damascius, Iamblichus, Eirugena and Nicholas of Cusa (the latter two of whom Guenon (pbuh) cites approvingly in his books on metaphysics). Eirugena's metaphysics are possibly the closet European thought ever came to Advaita Vedanta at least in terms of a systematized metaphysical framework
Guenon (pbuh) speculates in some of his writing that when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) traveled to Mesopatamia with his uncle on trading excursions that he may have come into contact with and been initiated by Nestorian Christians who were known to reside in that region and who represented an earlier initiatic current in Christianity. Jason Jorjani in one video talks about how some esoteric Shia groups believed that Salman the Persian initiated the Prophet (pbuh). It's not really necessary though at the stage of divine revelation to be initiated because this act of revelation can include within itself something equivalent to initiation or it can constitute a initiation. For example in the Upanishads it says that Brahman taught the truth to the Demiurge-like Prajapati who then taught it to the line of human sages who then passed it down in succession.

>> No.14673825

>It's not really necessary though at the stage of divine revelation to be initiated because this act of revelation can include within itself something equivalent to initiation

So how does that not apply to every mystic? The only thing separating the mystic (bad) from the initiated (good) is that the latter created a system out of his mysticism.

I've always found this strange in Guenon. At the beginning of every traditional system there's someone who wasn't initiated.

>> No.14674252

did guenon take his words back on buddhism

>> No.14674283

It appears he sort of did but was too smug to admit it clearly. Marco Pallis and Coomaraswamy went to Egypt to visit him and convince that Buddhism was good and not degenerate and he seemed to have accepted.

There's also letters with Jean Tourniac where Tourniac provides evidence that Guenon's take on the history of Christianity is wrong and Guenon again seems embarrassed at being wrong.

>> No.14674317

Guenon praised Mormonism which is practically a cult.

>> No.14675295

no he didn't, there is a chapter in the 'miscellaneous' book where he btfos mormonism

>> No.14675296


>> No.14675428

>So how does that not apply to every mystic?
Because mysticism doesn't imply initiation, as they do not receive direct divine revelation and are merely opening themselves to all sorts of influences of the subtle order.
>The only thing separating the mystic (bad) from the initiated (good) is that the latter created a system out of his mysticism.
The only difference is that one is initiated and the other is not. It's literally that simple. The first initiate might not even have "created" any system yet, but he'd still be orders above a mystic in the Guenonian view.
>At the beginning of every traditional system there's someone who wasn't initiated.
These people were initiated directly by supra-human entities, which is something not available to the vast majority of us.

>> No.14675455

>These people were initiated directly by supra-human entities, which is something not available to the vast majority of us.
How does one differentiate between a mystic and someone who has been initiated by supra-human entities?

>> No.14675511

One would ask the "higher ups" of the initiated world if it wouldn't be immediately obvious (which it probably would be, as the latter case is extremely exceptional).

>> No.14675518

how does one vet which "higher ups" to trust if the question is their trustworthiness in the first place?

>> No.14675544

the same way one determines the traditionality/orthodoxy of any tradition. just make sure he is part of a traditional organization and that he does not preach obvious heresy.

>> No.14675551

but the question is whether that tradition is legitimate in the first place, how do you determine which traditions have actual access to metaphysical knowledge? one man's thousand year old religion is another man's heresy

>> No.14675576

start with the refutation of Kantian sophistry conceived by Shaikh Guenon (pbuh)

>> No.14675601

>the question is whether that tradition is legitimate in the first place
These days it's unironically enough to check their stance on Anglo-bugmanist-moralism and gay anal sodomy. If they strictly ban both and have a long enough history, they're traditional.

>> No.14675606

While amusing, you're not really addressing anon's central point are you. Are we to use old religious texts as the benchmark for tradition?

>> No.14675635

>Are we to use old religious texts as the benchmark for tradition?
not him, but what do you mean by that? following their own texts and not denying their divine origin (where applicable) would be a good signifier of traditionality.

>> No.14675647

>how do you determine which traditions have actual access to metaphysical knowledge?
Any tradition with a great influence that has existed since before the time of the Seal of the Prophets (SAW).

>> No.14675734

this, it's not really answering my question. there are lots of religions that are quite old and that don't like western modernity and so forth. but many of them are horrible, and also they all have mutually contradictory metaphysical schemes (personal gods, strict dualism, etc).

it seems like there's no criterion for traditionalists about what counts as a valid tradition? all that matters is they claim divine revelation, but some traditions don't even do that

>> No.14675808

>mutually contradictory metaphysical schemes
Just read Guénon (pbuh)'s writings, he answers your questions. Under a Guénonic (pbuh) view these contradictions only exist in a level lower than that of pure metaphysics.

>> No.14675821

but the question is how to tell which tradition to trust in, including guenon. eliade has totally
different views of what "pure" metaphysics entails, so does evola. which one of these three do i believe and why?

>> No.14675845

>but many of them are horrible
in what sense?
>criterion for traditionalists about what counts as a valid tradition
supra-individual supra-human origin is the only necessary criterion for Guenon. methods of establishing this are a different topic altogether and involve deep scholarship and a profound study of sacred symbolism. follow the Guenon chart and read the first few chapters of "perspectives on Initiation" to understand what Guenon's view of tradition is.

>> No.14676366


>> No.14677976

>The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.


>> No.14678588

So Guenonfag has absolutely no argument for distinguishing initiates from mystis, apart from. "Uh, uh, uh r-read Guenon!"

I see no reason why one should believe Muhammad wasn't simply opening himself up to all sorts of influences of the subtle order.

I mean, the origin of the Quran is Muhammad isolating himself in a cave. Isn't the isolation exactly what Guenon equates with mysticism and sees it as anti-initiation because it doesn't proceed from a chain of initiation?

That Guenonians can't explain this isn't surprising. Guenon himself barely draws on the Quran and Islamic sources. He didn't know classical Arabic but only conversational Egyptian Arabic (yike). He was initiated as a sufi in 1911, and didn't live as a Muslim for over 20 years afterwards. Only when he moved to Egypt did he realize that he needed a firm exoteric tradition, yet the focus of his writings always remained on Hinduism and some scholastics.

As far as Traditionalism goes, I think Evola is more lucid and less contradictory. Initiation is overrated and retreating from the political and social into exoteric traditions that you've psyopped yourself into thinking cohere with your romanticized notion of an anti-modern metaphysics isn't gonna help anyone. Guenon turns out to be extremely cringe.

>> No.14678616

Recursively retroactively self-refuted by Guénon (pbuh).

>> No.14678624

Also, Guenon was NEVER initiated into Hinduism. He only read a bunch of texts and got praise for them by an English mutt (Ananda Coomaraswamy).

>> No.14678688

Ramana Maharishi called him the great sufi

>> No.14678705

Care to address the point?

>> No.14678717

If I'm not mistaken, there's a view in the Guenon corpus that the initiated, having reached a certain metaphysical presence, become that presence, which is not the case for the mystics, apparently. Where is Guenonfag when we need him? The initiation "problem" is, without a doubt, the most important and interesting aspect of Guenon's writings.

>> No.14678721

>Guenon's take on the history of Christianity is wrong and Guenon again seems embarrassed at being wrong.

He was critiqued heavily on this by his successors, such as Frithjof schuon, Marco Pallis and Jean Borella, even his most conservative follower Valsan conceded this point.

>> No.14678741

>Around this time (according to indications reproduced by his biographer Paul Chacornac),[9] it is possible that René Guénon became acquainted with Hinduism, specifically via the initiatic lineage of Shankarâchârya,[10] and with Taoism, due to his friendship with Georges-Albert Puyou de Pouvourville, alias Matgioi. It is likely that Guénon learned to use opium from de Pouvourville, and Guénon later described the use of opium as an aid to meditation.[11] He met Léon Champrenaud, alias Abdul-Haqq, and John-Gustav Ageli, alias Abdul-Hadi who had been initiated by Abder-Rhaman el Kébir in Cairo.

>> No.14678742

>that the initiated, having reached a certain metaphysical presence, become that presence, which is not the case for the mystics, apparently.

Why? There's no actual reason for that.

>> No.14678747

... >In 1910,[14] Guénon was initiated into the Sufi Shadhili order by Ivan Aguéli

>> No.14678752

I know Guenon loved to do opium and would abandon his niece to go smoke it with his theosophist buddies.

The point is WHO initiated Guenon into Hinduism? No one. I already knew that he was initiated into Sufism by an anarchist vegetarian Swede, and didn't begin practicing Islam for another 20 years. But no one initiated him into Hinduism.

>> No.14678758

He was critiqued heavily for that and for his understanding of the initiatic nature of Christian sacraments. Its a controversial topic within traditionalist circles. See:>>14678721

>> No.14678760

Does it matter? he was initiated into multiple nonduaistic traditional forms and knew Sanskrit.

>> No.14678764

>Guenon loved to do opium and would abandon his niece to go smoke it with his theosophist buddies.
Source? Otherwise you're just a troll.

>> No.14678765

Yes it does matter because of the emphasis he put on initiation and the emphasis he put on Hinduism. He was never initiated into Hinduism. Period.

>> No.14678773

Read any biography. He would leave his niece alone in their apartment and go to his little hipster seances at night to smoke opium and talk esoterism and return home early in the morning with a cup of coffee to not appear totally baked out of his mind.

His niece wanted out but was too shy and polite to tell it to him so she wrote to her mother. The mother knew very well what was going on and took custody of her daughter and the daughter ended up becoming a Catholic nun.

Guenon, delusional paranoid that he was, took this as some kind of attack against him rather than the reality that he was a shitty guardian who only cared about his navel-gazing contemplation. A consequence that is all too common with non-dual metaphysics. Renouncing responsibilities is seen as the peak of enlightenment.

>> No.14678774

He said you needed to be initiated (he was multiple times) to achieve spiritual realization, not to write upon the elementary doctrines of said traditions which is a matter of erudition.

>> No.14678778

Source pls, page numbers and chapters

>> No.14678808

It's in the Chacornac and Sedgwick biographies.

It's still quite cringe that what he loved the most in life he was never initiated into. And yes, he could write about things which he had no experience of, like writing about the orient in East and West before ever setting foot there.

>> No.14678861

I read the Sedgwick biography and it's not there. Troll.

>According to Paul Chacornac, Guénon chose a conversion to Islam rather than to Hinduism because the Hindu ritual life is not compatible with the Western way of life, whereas following Islamic rituals is compatible with modern Western life. He believed that Islam is the only traditional religious world that is practically accessible to Westerners.

Remember this was before mass communication and international air travel.

>> No.14678892

Guenon is right, Eliade is just a weird blend of Jungianism, Guenon and academic reductionism. Most of Evola's writings on metaphysics are plagued with basic errors.

>> No.14678924

Because in initiation a realized teacher confers that realization upon the disciple, which instills a much deeper level of understanding of the truths involved than the passive experience of the mystic. The mystic may suddenly finds himself in the midst of the ocean and then just as suddenly he is back where is was to begin with; the experience remains an unexplainable mystery. the initiated has a map of how to get there and an understanding of what the significance and purpose of the ocean and the map are.
In the biographies it doesn't specifically say that he was smoking opium while he niece was at home.
>loved the most in life
You are heavily mistaken if you think a jivanmukta and ah-insan al-kamil such as Rene Guenon (pbuh) still had not moved past the duality of aversion and attachment, you merely reveal your own spiritual ignorance with such freudian slips.

>> No.14678932
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>I read the Sedgwick biography and it's not there. Troll.

It is there...esoterically.

; )

>> No.14678947

> Because in initiation a realized teacher confers that realization upon the disciple blah blah

Why isn't Muhammad a mystic?

> In the biographies it doesn't specifically say that he was smoking opium while he niece was at home.

But it's quite obvious that's what he's going out to do, especially when he's hanging out with people who biographers literally state "initiated him into opium use."

>> No.14678966

>You are heavily mistaken if you think a jivanmukta and ah-insan al-kamil such as Rene Guenon

Syncretic bullshit. Guenon is just slightly more elitist and right-wing theosophy. A based critique of modernity but everything else he did was cringe and armchair history.

>> No.14678978

Reminder that Guenon dislike of academics comes from having his thesis rejected by his teacher of Sanskrit, Sylvain Levi, who outright rejected his idea of a primordial tradition.

Rene Guenon: not initiated into advaita vedanta and rejected by his teacher of Sanskrit.

>> No.14679045

His writings were approved by coomaraswamy, mircea eliade, Alain Daniélou, Huston Smith, and probably much more, all who were initiated into Hinduism at one point, a kind of postactive validation.

>> No.14679052

Because he received a revelation- he was a Prophet; a law giver.

>> No.14679064

>Why isn't Muhammad a mystic?
No he was initiated by Allah (swt) himself via the angel Gabriel. In any case a mere mystic would have never been able to come up with and memorize on his own a text as poetic and grandiose as the holy Qu'ran.
t. hylic deluded by maya

>> No.14679075

Alain danielou showed the orthodox Hindi pandits Guénon's works on Hinduism to them and they said that out of all the works of westerns only he had really understood their meaning.

>> No.14679145

So the only criteria to separate an initiate from a mystic is that the former sets up a tradition. But there's nothing in that that proves that the initiate isn't teaching degenerate stuff influenced by the "subtle order." And in fact there's a lot in the Quran to indicate that Muhammad was.

> t. hylic deluded by maya

You resort to ad hominems because that's all you have. For a supposed Traditionalist who has achieved permanent union with the One you sure do spend a lot of time on 4chan and have an adolescent posting style. DUDE, SUPREMELY BASED!

This is the fruit of the Guenonian tree.

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