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14641506 No.14641506 [Reply] [Original]

So I have been looking into various Indian thought and these two schools caught my attention:

Advaita-Vedanta in Hiduism.
Way of The Buddha in Buddhism.

Are these ultimately the same teaching? Because both have, as I see:

Void - Brahman/Atman
Teaching of no-self - Non-dualism
Moksha - Knower/Known non-distinction realisation
Realization of No-Self - Liberation
Vanishing into the void - Becoming a Jivanmukti
No Reality - All is an Appearance
Suffering - Jiva
Ignorance - Maya

Also, I do have a question about enligthened people. How many were there from each tradition? Are there any I could look up lectures of right now and how do I know if they are enligthened?

Is it fair to say that Buddhism is just an "edgier" version of Advaita-Vedanta with its Void and Nothingness? Which one do I follow to know that I am not my mind but am Brahman or Void?

Do not quote me on these, I am merely learning and would appreciate recommendations.

>> No.14641517
File: 125 KB, 640x820, u-g-krishnamurti-610426.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14641517

>>14641506
LISTEN CAREFULLY. SKIP IT ALL AND GO STRAIGHT TO UG KRISHNAMURTI WHO RETROACTIVELY DESTROYED ALL RELIGIOUS THINKING

>> No.14641532

>>14641517
I don't believe that to be true.

I was meditating and had an experience when I looked at my own self and thought it did not really exist.

That I was just looking at a third person/Brahman thinking the thoughts.

>> No.14641542

>>14641532
You're a rookie that's why. All I'll say is UG Krishnamurti debunked all that acid head talk

>> No.14641556

>>14641542
How am I a rooky if I had a valid experience of my self not existing?

Then we shall ask: what/whom was thinking that? Because something clearly was. So existence exists.

Now. Ask: how can it be that many people had the same experience and felt the same existence? This existence is unique.

Thus Brahman exists as a felt experience to people. You can't dismiss that with one quote.

>> No.14641572

>>14641556
There was still an experiencer. Mystical experiences are traps. In Zen they tell you to move on and throw them out

>> No.14641573

>>14641517
Everything that this Krishmurti guy is saying (based on your posts on this board) is literally -- nothing. He is saying nothing! Literally there is no content. Why do you keep shilling him?

>> No.14641591

>>14641572
There was. Indeed. And this experiencer was One! Like they say in all religions even.

God is One, He has no Parts, etc. Muslims and Jews go on and on about this stuff.

I felt two things: the thinking was not done by "me" because I did not exist, and there was an outside experiencer and I was that experiencer.

>> No.14641604

>>14641506
If you would like to see the same concepts discussed and the same conclusion reached in a western, Kantian, way, I suggest Schopenhauer.

>> No.14641612
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14641612

>>14641573
UG can aid the reader in destroying your illusions without jargon or metaphysical talk. It's simple, give up, stop seeking for enlightenment or wisdom, thought only contains you into a bubble of illusion

>The body does not exist except as a thought. There is one thought. Everything exists in relationship to that one thought. That thought is 'me'. Anything you experience based on thought is illusion

>> No.14641617

>>14641604
>in a western, Kantian, way
>I suggest Schopenhauer

Honestly. The though repulses me if I am to be frank.

I am repulsed by modern Western society and what Kant in particular has lead it towards.

Why would I read a book by someone clearly not enligthened whom moreover lived in a decadent time?

I might look into it though if someone wrote down a short paper with the similarities.

>> No.14641625

>>14641612
He is saying exactly nothing. The same thing was expressed much better by ancient skeptics, yet I don't see anyone shilling Pyrrho.

>> No.14641627

>>14641591
The realization of no self is the most profound realization a human can make. Anyone who knows this would agree with me. But, mystical experiences (which happen) demand an experiencer (self, or "I") and an experience. You are still operating within the framework.

>> No.14641628
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14641628

>>14641612
>stop seeking for enlightenment or wisdom
I.e. become a fucking bugman and live in a shipping container.

No, thanks.

>> No.14641633
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14641633

Advaita Vedanta pretty much is Mahayana Buddhism. It copied its entire framework, that's why they seem so similar.

>> No.14641634

>>14641627
How does this realization even feel like, in principle?

If "feeling" is even applicable here. How do I know if I hit it?

People constantly tell me that I am a genius and stuff with high aptitute. So if I hit it I need to know that I really did.

Is it common for people to reach it within a year of dilligent work?

>> No.14641639

>>14641628
There's nothing wrong with gathering worldly knowledge but ultimately suffering will persist. There is no way out, and "you" are the problem

>> No.14641642
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14641642

>>14641633
See also this picture.

>> No.14641643

>>14641627
I also had this sort of semi-realization associated with mysticism. It was brought on by associating no concept of myself with the specific conscious moment I was in but I was still that moment so I was still a self in some sense I guess.

>> No.14641646

>>14641617
Schopenhauer was definitely enlightened (or at least had certain insights) or else he couldn't have reached the same conclusions. Keep in mind that he wrote the book before there were translations of Indian texts available, so it was only later that he noticed the similarities.

The Kantianism is the epistemological basis. Discursive, logical, thinking has its uses and can reach the same conclusion as the mystics do. It's only the methodology that differs.

As for a short paper, the SEP article on Schopenhauer is very good.:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/schopenhauer/

>> No.14641650

>No-Self
Literally what is claiming No-Self if Self is not real? Wtf. I feel like an idiot because surely 3000 years or however many of Buddhism couldn't be this obviously wrong.

>> No.14641652

>>14641634
Mystical experiences are a thing in and of themselves, visions, insane highs etc calamity as UG described is something extremely rare, the natural state as he describes it that is liberation

>> No.14641665
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14641665

>>14641650
>3000 years
Aryans are 5000+ years old actually. Adam was the first Aryan, and the Buddha had an unbroken Aryan line directly to him.

>> No.14641680

>>14641633
>>14641642
I see.

Should I then follow Advaita-Vedanta because it is an "updated" version of Buddhism?

Who produced more enligthened people amongst them? Especially for people who were originally Westerners?

>> No.14641681

>>14641652
>The next day U.G. was again pondering the question "How do I know I am in that state?" with no answer forthcoming. He later recounted that on suddenly realising the question had no answer, there was an unexpected physical, as well as psychological, reaction. It seemed to him like "a sudden 'explosion' inside, blasting, as it were, every cell, every nerve and every gland in my body." Afterwards, he started experiencing what he called "the calamity", a series of bizarre physiological transformations that took place over the course of a week, affecting each one of his senses, and finally resulting in a deathlike experience. He described it this way:

>I call it "calamity" because from the point of view of one who thinks this is something fantastic, blissful and full of beatitude, love, or ecstasy, this is physical torture; this is a calamity from that point of view. Not a calamity to me but a calamity to those who have an image that something marvelous is going to happen.


>Then, on the eighth day I was sitting on the sofa and suddenly there was an outburst of tremendous energy – tremendous energy shaking the whole body, and along with the body, the sofa, the chalet and the whole universe, as it were – shaking, vibrating. You can't create that movement at all. It was sudden. Whether it was coming from outside or inside, from below or above, I don't know – I couldn't locate the spot; it was all-over. It lasted for hours and hours. I couldn't bear it but there was nothing I could do to stop it; there was a total helplessness. This went on and on, day after day, day after day.

>The energy that is operating there does not feel the limitations of the body; it is not interested; it has its own momentum. It is a very painful thing. It is not that ecstatic, blissful beatitude and all that rubbish – stuff and nonsense! – it is really a painful thing.[5]

>U.G. could not, and did not, explain the provenance of the calamity experiences. In response to questions, he maintained that it happened "in spite of" his pre-occupation with – and search for – enlightenment. He also maintained that the calamity had nothing to do with his life up to that point, or with his upbringing. Several times he described the calamity happening to him as a matter of chance, and he insisted that he could not possibly, in any way, impart that experience to anybody else.

>> No.14641716

>>14641680
>Should I then follow Advaita-Vedanta because it is an "updated" version of Buddhism?
It's not really updated. It was just copypasted by Hindu brahmins so that they wouldn't lose control. It's essentially just Mahayana Buddhism + the noble lie for all the regular Hindu plebs.

And Advaita is not open to non-ascetic non-Brahmins either. It's asceticism is much more grueling than Buddhist asceticism. Advaita because illusion in their system is ontological as opposed to on the cognitive level they do not accept the possibility of achieving moksha without a personal guru. I do not see any reason for a non-Hindu to choose Advaita over Mahayana.

tl;dr on Hinduism and its development
>woah you said this mantra will make me rich and powerful?
>oh I need to sacrifice some animals in a certain way with a fire?
>praise Agni, praise Indra!
>wait who is this 'Buddha' kid they keep talking about
>oy vey he's gaining popularity
>quick bros we must preserve Brahmin supremacy somehow
>"actually guys our dharma is about the self, reality, maya, oneness, liberation etc....forget the sacrificial rituals and deva adoration we once championed (psyche we still do that)"
>oh shit he's still gaining tracti- wait look the muslims are pushing them out!
>finally we can challenge buddhism and 'win' debates against some peasant monks and write about how we're awesome and shit centuries after that fact, they'll never know that we took their arguments from them it'll take em by surprise bro
>oh btw the Buddha was Vishnu all long so hooray for us!
>*takes a celebratory shit in the street*

>> No.14641736

>>14641680
you shouldn't just "follow" anything to be honest, you should learn from things and seek actual knowledge rather than assuming one person "got it right" and thus you are supposed to obey him or imitate him. imitation is only useful insofar as it produces the same wisdom in you.

>> No.14641741

>>14641716
Ignore this guy OP. Advaita is acid head stuff. Having visions and meditating all day is useless. No technique, no teacher, no teaching, no student.

>> No.14641747

>>14641736
UG Krishnamurti lays it out in laymens terms better than anyone

>> No.14641748
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14641748

>>14641716
>tl;dr on Hinduism and its development
>>woah you said this mantra will make me rich and powerful?
>>oh I need to sacrifice some animals in a certain way with a fire?
>>praise Agni, praise Indra!
>>wait who is this 'Buddha' kid they keep talking about
>>oy vey he's gaining popularity
>>quick bros we must preserve Brahmin supremacy somehow
>>"actually guys our dharma is about the self, reality, maya, oneness, liberation etc....forget the sacrificial rituals and deva adoration we once championed (psyche we still do that)"
>>oh shit he's still gaining tracti- wait look the muslims are pushing them out!
>>finally we can challenge buddhism and 'win' debates against some peasant monks and write about how we're awesome and shit centuries after that fact, they'll never know that we took their arguments from them it'll take em by surprise bro
>>oh btw the Buddha was Vishnu all long so hooray for us!
>>*takes a celebratory shit in the street*
Based!

>> No.14641755
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14641755

>>14641716
But is there any harm in following it if one likes the hindu aesthetic better than a chink buddhahead one? Buddhuism seems westernized by mcdonalds-tier buddhist like pic related.

>> No.14641758

>>14641755
Buddhuism is shit. Awful

>> No.14641774

>>14641748
>>>*takes a celebratory shit in the street*
Based, indeed!

>> No.14641784
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14641784

Was Christ a Buddhist?
Did he have the No Self realisation?

>> No.14641802

>>14641755
I guess not but if you're not actually Indian and Indians are made aware that you follow Advaita then be prepared to be constantly told; in a passive aggressive manner, "you're welcome" by random poos for the rest of your life. This is why all the western Advaitins always go full on native, only an extreme Hindutva brainwash will ever get you accepted.

Indians are the worst human beings on this planet. My theory is that it stems from a poisonous concoction of actually having an ancient civilization and also having been completely dominated by foreigners for the last 1000 years. It has created a sort of inferiority complex coupled with the idea that Indian civilization is the greatest ever to exist and from which all else flowed. They'll call you colonizer while at the same time letting you know that they're the reason why your people do not live in mudhuts, have rockets and know how to count.

>> No.14641810
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14641810

Why yes, I would service an Advaitin Guru orally for a quick taste of enlightenment, how could you tell?

>> No.14641814

>>14641802
Please go into more details about your negative experiences with Indians, I'm always fascinated by posts like this. An anon recently made one about his experience with Japan and then there's the famous "don't learn Chinese" megapost.

>> No.14641820

>>14641802
>Indians are the worst human beings on this planet.
One even wonders if they are human at all.

>> No.14641821

>>14641784
No. He did the opposite. He was so deluded in his duality that he actually saw reified everything that ought not be reified to the point that he became the literal creator of the universe.

The Abrahamic religions are the polar opposite to the Dharmic. Instead of trying to blend the two how about you actually look at them for what they are and decide for yourself which of these two systems of thought are right and which one is wrong.

>> No.14641831

>>14641821
>The Abrahamic religions are the polar opposite to the Dharmic.
Is there actual reason to believe that the Abrahamic ones aren't crypto-nondualists? I've read some basic stuff on Kabbalah and it sure seems like they are basically buddhist/Advaitin.

>> No.14641857

>>14641821
>two
>right and which one is wrong
Crypto subversive dualist detected. Do not listen to him, anon. Seek the non-dualist light in your own tradition. Meet me at an appropriate thread later and I will share some writings.

>> No.14641883

Atman does not exist.
Refute me, "I" dare "you".

>> No.14641893

>>14641857
>there is one truth therefore all is true
This is the sort of Guenon perennialism that is perverting every tradition and making them into mere husks suited for no one but the atomized individual. Modernity will not rest until there is a Jesus statue in every ashram and yoga seminars taking place in every mosque.

>> No.14641898

>>14641883
>Atman does not exist.
>Refute me, "I" dare "you".

Anon, these retards here waste their time reading Western philosophers. They are a lost cause

>> No.14641904

>>14641831
Judaism and Islam seem to have dualist shells with nondualist cores. With Christianity its pretty bleak. Sure there are Rosicrucians and other fringe groups which incorporate Kabbalah, and thus nondualism, or are just nondualist in some other way, but 99.99% of Christians are dead-set on dualism.
So, yes and no.
(not who you're responding to btw)

>> No.14641963

>>14641904
>Judaism and Islam seem to have dualist shells with nondualist cores
I think you guys are getting hung up way too much on what amounts to tiny sects within these religions, most of which have been seriously persecuted. A lot of sufis actually got killed for heresy when they dared get too close to pantheism/panentheism. Eckhart probably would have burned if he did not die prematurely. Judaism I don't know much about so I can't say how big Kabbalah is in it but I'd be very surprised if its even believed by 5% of the Jewish population.

But then again my family have been atheist/agnostic for at least 4 generations so I consider myself to be a complete blank slate when approaching religion so I've never felt any appeal whatsoever in trying to rehabilitate any of them.