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/lit/ - Literature

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14610296 No.14610296 [Reply] [Original]

Your toughts on the book of job? (From the bible) What whould you do if you where put on his situation?

>> No.14610307

>tfw you already are Job

>> No.14610308

>>14610307
You never know.

>> No.14610325

>>14610296
Bit of a disorganized mess. God's answer to Job was pretty unsatisfactory, e.g. "look at all these meteorological phenomena I'm responsible for!". It's interesting in that it's the only book that features such direct criticism of God and the notion that God doesn't necessarily reward justice or punish evil.

>> No.14610333

>>14610307
How hard have you been fucked over?

>> No.14610342

Interesting from an anthropological perspective to have an idea about an ancient scribes mindset.
Interesting from a literary standpoint because many authors made references to it (Goethe, Machado de Assis).
The moral of the story is crude and weak though.

>> No.14610348

>>14610342
Interesting also from a philosophical and theological points of view of course, as it discusses the problem of evil like >>14610325
said

>> No.14610349

>>14610342
Are you sure you know what the "moral" of the story is?

>> No.14610357

>>14610296
>just suffer and someone will reward you xD

>> No.14610358
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14610358

>>14610296
Teleoplexically refuted by capital aka Nick Land.

>> No.14610364

>>14610349
You cant question God's morality because he's so powerful & badass?

>> No.14610375

>>14610307
this but unironically

>> No.14610395

>>14610349
If you go by the text itself, not the commentaries, it's a tale designed by priests to provide an answer to the question why do the just suffer. The answer is disappointingly weak and authoritarian: because God knows better; don't question him or he'll fuck you up, but stay faithful and he'll give you a new wife.

>> No.14610409

>>14610364
God was saying, "look how much of a fuck up I am, I create horrible monsters and storms and plagues, who are you to say I can't do wrong?"

>> No.14610420

>he'll give you a new wife
This is the most hilarious part btw.
>You allowed Satan to kill my wife and whole family because you and him made a bet??
>Yeaaah... Don't worry though, I'll give you a new one lmao

>> No.14610437

it's about hybris you mongs

>> No.14610440

The point of all the talk about nature was to demonstrate that
1) God’s understanding surpasses our own
2) This world is more than just humanity. God is glorified by more than just humans feeling happy.

Yes, suffering isn’t exactly desirable, though there is the argument that the existence of suffering gives life more meaning and makes our joys seem even greater (Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted). Certain types of joys and goodness and meaning could not exist otherwise. But even if this were all untrue, and suffering were simply bad overall, then so what? We can still accept God’s gift of salvation, enjoy our meaningful lives as much as we can, and go to heaven afterwards. Seems like a pretty good deal.

>> No.14610445

damn, job looks like THAT?

>> No.14610454

You cannot confine good and evil to be totally dependent on subjective experience. What seems good to humans is good and what seems evil is evil. But this totally disregards God’s conception of good, which is more objective. A world in which humans only perceive good is therefore not necessarily objectively good.


God’s objective omnibenevolence/goodness/justice is not affected by our subjective views. God is good because God is Truth and is a glorious Creator. In the same way that I eat animals for my purpose, making it good for me, God does whatever he needs to do for his objective standard of good. Unfortunately this allows suffering to exist for us, but God is merciful, so he allows a way to salvation, which we can either accept or reject


God is objectively good, but also subjectively benevolent to humans. But God can also be subjectively malevolent. This has to be the case, since some people hate God, and some people go to hell.
Proverbs 8:17
>I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
James 4:8
>Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Deuteronomy 7:9
>9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

The problem of evil is a subjective problem only, made worse when you’re an atheist.

>> No.14610465

>>14610364
Read Job 38:2 and Job 42:3.
>>14610395
>The answer is disappointingly weak and authoritarian: because God knows better
What makes you think that's "weak and authoritarian"? It would be weak and authoritarian if it came from a fellow human being, because we can understand the thinking processes and desires and weaknesses of other humans. As the last few chapters show, God is not even remotely comparable to humans, and to assume the latter can even fathom the larger plans/purposes of the former is unwarranted. The chasm is incomparably greater than even that between a bacterium and a human.

>> No.14610466

>>14610437
>hybris
No you decisive cretin. You just learned that word today and you have no idea what it means.

>> No.14610483

>>14610296
Demiurge propaganda. Evil and sinister book. Christ saves us from this nonsense.

>> No.14610486

>>14610465
>can even fathom the larger plans/purposes
Dude. He literally made a bet with Satan in the first chapter of the book. They tell you that so you don't have to "fathom" anything lmao

>> No.14610491

>>14610440
>>14610454

Terminally Demiurgic posts.

>> No.14610502

>>14610440
>>14610454
>>14610465
Gid literally says he had no reason to do what he did, and the friends who claimed that it was all a part of a bigger plan or that God had some greater justification for it were called out by God for talking shit. He says very clearly that Job was the one who spoke the truth.

>> No.14610505

>>14610483
Interesting you say that.
Job 9:

32 “He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together,
34 someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him, but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

>> No.14610526

>>14610486
Way to miss the point. The question is "why", not "what" happened.
>lmao
Tone down the reddit, please.

>> No.14610531

>>14610466
guess you should have started with the greeks you big dumb retard

>> No.14610537

I think that Jewish consciouness was going through a phase where it had began to question if god is on our side why do we get btfo by everyone else? The book is a way for the Jewish consciousness to cope with that fact. People were beginning to question and the book must have served as a catharsis or sape valve where these kinds of thoughts and doubts could collectivelly be ventilated.
The reason why the end is so weak is because the priesthood had to give it an "orthodox" closure in order to maintain social cohesion and their status, but it never really satisfyingly answers the questions.

>> No.14610542

>>14610505
Yes, Job deserved Christ's grace, but instead he had to deal with evil, man-child Yahweh (who is not the Father and not the one, true God). The Book of Job is a testament to the pettiness and cruelty of Yahweh who tortures one of his most loyal followers and his family just to BTFO another lesser being (Satan) in a debate. Pathetic. FUCK YOU, YAHWEH.

>> No.14610543

>>14610537
What makes you think anyone could understand such answers, at least in their current state?

>> No.14610544

>>14610531
You should end your life and be born again with an at least two-digit iq

>> No.14610554

>>14610543
I don't think they can be answered assuming a benign all-powerful deity. That's why I'm not a believer.

>> No.14610555

>>14610502
>Gid literally says he had no reason to do what he did
which verse

>> No.14610580

>>14610554
explain exactly what you mean by “benign”

>> No.14610605

>>14610555
>Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
Job 2:3

>> No.14610606

>>14610580
I don't want to do this right now.

>> No.14610624

>>14610605
>tortures his most faithful servant just to win a gay argument with a lesser being like Satan
Yahweh is such a fucking retarded child. I hate that nigger so much.

>> No.14610641

>>14610605
you must have replied to the wrong post, that's not what i was asking

>> No.14610711

>>14610641
that's the verse where God said he had no reason to do what he did, what were you asking?

>> No.14610721

>>14610711
>reading comprehension

>> No.14610726

>>14610296
>Life is going shitty
I can deal with that
>My friends telling me I probably deserve it
I would have strangled them, but then I'm not as godly a man as Job

>> No.14610734

>>14610721
you posted two words, "which verse", so I replied with which verse I was talking about. if there was a miscommunication ot was because you can't be fucked to write in complete sentences.

>> No.14610736

>>14610721
>>14610641
>>14610555
You're fucking stupid. Literally end it, you low IQ mongrel.

>> No.14610756

>>14610734
>>14610736
>Satan doing something without reason = God doing something without reason
embarrassing

>> No.14610783

>>14610756
God only did it at Satan's suggestion lmao, and again, God comes in at the end of the book to say that the friends who justified God's actions were wrong, and Job, the one who says God is a capricious asshole who is punishing him for no good reason, is the one who was speaking the truth. have you even read the book?

>> No.14610791

>>14610783
>God comes in at the end of the book to say that the friends who justified God's actions were wrong, and Job, the one who says God is a capricious asshole who is punishing him for no good reason, is the one who was speaking the truth
pretty sure that’s what that anon was asking about which verse

>> No.14610810

>>14610791
why did he quote the part about God having no reason rather than Job telling the truth?
>After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has
Job 42:7

>> No.14610920

>>14610783
>God only did it at Satan's suggestion lmao
Right, because Satan could simply say “do this” and God would do it

>> No.14610928

>>14610920
and yet this is what happens in the book of Job; there is a reason people have been arguing over it for millennia.

>> No.14610953

>>14610364
Imagine thinking you are this epic atheist intellectual and not being able to interpret basic stories like this

>> No.14610977

>>14610928
can you really think of no reason why God would go along with it? You really think Satan could have told God to do anything? You have faith against God and it shows

>> No.14610993

>>14610977
I am agnostic, my reading of Job is based solely on the text. If you need to read in motivations which go against the text to help it conform to your ideological conception of "God", I'm okay with that. If your position is all based on faith I have nothing to say, I am only concerned with the book.

>> No.14611014
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14611014

>>14610993
>"God"

>> No.14611016

It's a book written by kyke scribes way before Christ came, it is not necessarily right, as much as all the yucky shit God does in the OT is not 100% accurate. Even the gospels are not 100% accurate, so much so that there are four of them recounting the story of when God himself walked the Earth.

>> No.14611078

>>14611014
well whatever God you believe in, it isn't the one described in Job, that's my point

>> No.14611640

>>14610325
Lamentations and some of the Psalms come pretty close to direct criticism of God.

>> No.14611689

>>14611016
>four of them recounting the story
but why do it 4 times?

>> No.14611724

>>14611689
Because we are human beings and flawed, and our world is fallen and flawed, it took a whole bunch of research to figure out that at least those four were not fake. If we could have more I'm sure we would take them, but paper rots, so we take the ones we've got.

>> No.14612488

>>14611724
>those four were not fake
fake as in forgeries or fake as in false? because they disagree with each other quite a bit

>> No.14612504

The main reason for reading Job is the poetry. Is the only place in world literature that something as great as Shakespeare metaphorical exuberance was achieved. The work is composed as some sort of philosophical debate, as Plato’s dialogues. It is written in verse, so it almost seem like a Shakespearean play.

The most sublime moment of the book is when God, from within the throat of a storm, from the guts of a hurricane, responds to Job why so much pain and misery fell on his head. The answer is nothing like what one might imagine - some justification of divine justice. God simply humiliates Job, and offers no justification; instead he exhibits himself to the poor man (like an egocentric artist), making the creation of the universe, from the embryo of chaos to the current vastness, parade in front of the eyes of the sufferer. God simply crushes Job, saying that he, Job, has no idea of how the universe was formed: he did not walk, as God did, upon the slime of the ocean abysses, or clothed the naked body of the primeval sea with the diapers of mists like diapers, or witnessed the angels exultation and the shouts of joy of dancing stars when the creation was made. God says he is the one who knows how existence came to be, he is the one who created all the wonders of nature (and the description of these wonders is the crowning glory of the book) and that he has a lot more things to do than worry only with Job, a simple naked worm. In short: God spits on Job all the wonder of his creation, all his artistic talent, and says he is the one who makes the rules and that the world is his, and he has endless things to worry about. He says that Job is only one human being, one of the grains in the general harvest of creation, and has no authority to question the owner of the universe.

This book is not only extremely exuberant in its poetry, but also very strange as a comfort and justification text. God doesn’t offer any comfort. He does what he wants and when he wants.

>> No.14612592

>>14612504
good post

>> No.14612599

>>14610296
>book of job? (From the bible)

Thanks for clarifying

>> No.14612620
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14612620

>>14610296
>suffering is good
based

>> No.14612665

>>14610296
virgin job v chad faust

>> No.14613754

>>14610953
What's the correct interpretation?

>> No.14615421

>>14612504
that was autistic OT God

>> No.14615467

>>14612504

How would this God be different from Yaldabaoth or Satan?

>> No.14615493

>>14615467
>Yaldabaoth
I mean if you're going to apply a Gnostic spin to it then of course the God of Job is Yaldabaoth, every single act of creation he describes are components of the material universe.

>> No.14615497

>>14610296
absolute slave mindset

>> No.14615502

>>14612488
Forgeries
Take for instance the Gospel of John which is generally assigned to the apostle John, it's generally agreed upon based on the tone of the text though that the apostle John was not the author. Some of the Pauline letters are highly suspect too. The "canonical" gospels also likely drew verses from the Gospel of Thomas which raises the question, why isn't that gospel canon?

>> No.14615516

>>14610542
Yahweh is the one who created christ so if he wants to destroy you christ won't be able to help you.

>> No.14615531

>>14615516
>created
lmao, the person replying to the Gnostic also has a heterodex position.

>> No.14615572

I miss doublechin. I miss /Christian/ so much.

>> No.14615582

>>14615531
*dox

gotta stop drinking

>> No.14615592

Yahweh is a MEGA KIKE
>boasting about this shitty material world
>sporting a retarded flat earth cosmology on top of it
>lying that he killed non existent mythological creatures

>> No.14615634

>>14615502
>why isn't that gospel canon?
why?

>> No.14615985

>>14615531
i'm not him.

>> No.14617121

Is Ch*rstianity the most cucked religion in existence?

>> No.14617237

>>14610325
>the notion that God doesn't necessarily reward justice or punish evil.

but he does, eventually, that's the whole point of the story

>but Job didn't get back his dead kids... but god didn't punish Satan

they will both get what they deserve... eventually, read Revelation

>> No.14617288

Job is a chad.

>rich as fuck
>many friends
>beautiful wife and children
>thousands of camels
>probably concubines
>God loves him
>converses directly with God
>so based he makes Satan jealous
>Satan (basically a brad) spergs out and attacks Job for no reason
>Job is still chill
>Tells his whore wife to stfu
>tells his friends to stfu
>BTFO Satan by doing literally nothing
>ends up even richer than before with an even hotter wife

>> No.14617324

>>14617288
please put the ending in spoilers, i haven't finished it yet

>> No.14617326

>>14617288
>Job is still chill
he laments his own existence and shames God for like 30 chapters

>> No.14617410

>>14617326
"Cursed be the day I was born! May the day my mother bore me not be blessed!"

Curse the womb that bore you before you curse God.

>> No.14617419

>>14617410
That's Jeremiah

>> No.14617436
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14617436

>>14617410
>Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
>When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaints;
>Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
>So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
>I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
>What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
>And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
>How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
>I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?
>And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

>> No.14617456

>>14610296
Hitler was one of Job's reincarnations.

>> No.14617496

>>14617326
>Tells God to fuck off and not only survives but God blesses him

Surely the ultimate Chad, maybe even a Thad

>> No.14617512

>>14617326
He never shames God. His wife tells him "curse God and die!" and he rebukes her.

>> No.14617514

>>14617512
see
>>14617436

>> No.14617547

>>14617514
Where is he cursing God? He wants God to leave him alone to wallow in self-pity. The whole premise of the Job story is that Satan though he could make Job curse God by simply taking away his blessings, but Job proved that the love between God an himself was not merely based on material blessings.

>> No.14617608

>>14617547

I never said he curses God, you brought that up. I said he shamed God, and that is exactly what he is doing. He isn't just saying "leave me alone", he's admonishing God, asking him "why do you treat mankind like this? why do you hold us to such a high account? why is it that a perfect being can set himself against his imperfect creation without pardon?"
>The whole premise of the Job story is that Satan though he could make Job curse God by simply taking away his blessings, but Job proved that the love between God an himself was not merely based on material blessings
if this were true he would have listened to his friends and the story would have been like a quarter of the length. this is a very bad reading people use to ignore the complex theology it presents.

>> No.14617702

Strange how there are so many misconceptions in this thread. Nowhere does is say in Job that he got a second wife, or that his first wife died. So presumable the new children he gets are by the same wife.

And concerning God's "flexing" as an answer to job. This interpretation is not valid, because God is omnipotent and omniscient. Therefore he knew what Job would do and say before he said it. Whenever you're thinking of God flexing, you're not thinking of God, you're thinking of a god like Zeus.

A more appropriate explanation is that Satan is the temporary ruler of the Earth, while God's kingdom is in heaven. The evil that happens on Earth is from Satan, which is why God is unhappy when Job's friends say that evil is caused by God. From the time of Adam and Eve, God never causes evil to happen, but allows it, because he can't infringe on free will, since that goes against perfect goodness. It was good to create free will. But Adam and Eve ate of the apple, and now humanity is in a fallen world, and in this fallen world we continue to live in sin, even when more honorable options are available. God rebukes Job for not having enough trust in Him.

And remember, the same God that allowed Job to suffer, humbled himself by taking on a human body, and die an agonizing death just to save his lost children. Jesus said that he could've called the angels at any second to beat his enemies on Earth, but he didn't, because something more important had to be fulfilled. A servant is not greater than his master, therefore there is no reason that Job could be faced with the same kind of suffering that the Lord had to accept as well.

Luke 24:42
“Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

>> No.14617722

>>14617702
>A more appropriate explanation is that Satan is the temporary ruler of the Earth, while God's kingdom is in heaven. The evil that happens on Earth is from Satan, which is why God is unhappy when Job's friends say that evil is caused by God. From the time of Adam and Eve, God never causes evil to happen, but allows it, because he can't infringe on free will, since that goes against perfect goodness. It was good to create free will. But Adam and Eve ate of the apple, and now humanity is in a fallen world, and in this fallen world we continue to live in sin, even when more honorable options are available. God rebukes Job for not having enough trust in Him.
Nowhere does it say this is Job, so presumably this is Christian cope to ignore the theology of the OT

>> No.14617750

>>14617722
If you call a Christian explanation a Christian cope, yes then it is a Christian cope. The Bible consists of 66 books. You wouldn't read the book of Haggai without taking the Biblical context into account, so neither is that logical to do for Job.

>> No.14617755

>>14617750
You are counting the books of the sequel in with the original, the OT only has 39 books

>> No.14617801

>>14617755
That's completely irrelevant to any Christian, because Christians believe the Bible is one coherent story. Even film and book sequels have events that have implications for earlier installments, how much more would that be the case for the bible?

>The Christian has a Christian view of the Bible.
Where is the surprising part?

>> No.14617834

>>14617702
>The evil that happens on Earth is from Satan, which is why God is unhappy when Job's friends say that evil is caused by God.
verse?

>> No.14617862

>>14617834
1 John 5:18-19
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

>> No.14618125

>>14617608
> he's admonishing God, asking him "why do you treat mankind like this? why do you hold us to such a high account?

I don't read your greentext like that. It sounds more like "why does almighty God have to concern himself with a pathetic mortal like me"

>Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
"I'm not significant enough for your attention"

>What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him?
"Why should god bother examining an insignificant like me, a human?"

He's belittling himself, not telling-off God.

Of course, how it's interpreted depends heavily on the translation.

>complex theology
God gave his word for ordinary people to understand, not for the Pharisees.

>> No.14618171

>>14618125
There is no reason to suppose that the theology in the Bible should be easy to understand. It should only be easy enough to convey the main message of the Gospel, but other than that there is no need for a restriction in complexity.

>> No.14618227

I want to believe but i cant.

>> No.14618247

>>14618227
Read Pensées

>> No.14618269

>>14618227
Deuteronomy 4:29
>But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Proverbs 8:17
>I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
Jeremiah 29:13
>You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:7-8
>Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Isaiah 55:6-7
>Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Lamentations 3:25
>The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.
James 4:8
>Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

>> No.14618324

>>14618247
I dont think im that smart to understand it
>>14618269
Is the prayer enough?

>> No.14618334
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14618334

>>14610364
Yes.

>> No.14618359

>>14618324
It depends. If you have intellectual problems with the existence of God, then you can't ignore that. You'll have to consider the arguments and evidence. Dr Turek and Dr Habermas are good sources for that.

If you can't believe because of obstacles in your heart, then yes, prayer will probably lead you to trust in God.

>> No.14618374

>>14618359
>If you can't believe because of obstacles in your heart, then yes, prayer will probably lead you to trust in God.
Thats the case. I dont have genuine down to the core belief.

>> No.14618469

>>14618374
If it's really only in your heart, then the main thing is not to worry. All you have to do is trust in the sacrifice of Jesus, who as the divine Son of God paid for your sins.

>I don't have genuine down to the core belief.
Don't worry, perfect belief is not necessary. You merely need to genuinely trust Jesus. If you do, you have the promise of eternal life. Nobody can take that away from you, not even the doubts in your heart. Don't let anyone convince you you're going to hell if you don't do this or that, or if you're heart is not perfectly pure. The Bible clearly says we are saved by grace, not by works. However, you can count on spiritual growth if you keep this up. That's also part of the promise.

>> No.14618571

>>14618125
>Why should god bother examining an insignificant like me, a human?
lol oh yes, of course, Job was upset that God was lowering himself! Job being upset had nothing to do with him losing literally everything he held dear to him, in fact, that isn't important at all to the story. Good reading anon you sold me.

>> No.14619260
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14619260

>>14617237
>but he does, eventually, that's the whole point of the story
I killed your family and rained physical, psychological, and spiritual attacks on you through supernatural trials and by planting spite within your friends words and deep into your very heart. On the other hand, that was the past... here's a new family!

>> No.14619281

>>14610296
Moral of the Story Don't fear anyone, but God Alone

>> No.14619286

>>14610486
Satan took advantage of Jobs fear

>> No.14619293

>>14619281
>>14619286

Job 3:25
For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me, And what I dreaded has happened to me.

>> No.14619301

>>14619293
Job literally asked for the Pain not God.