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14599060 No.14599060 [Reply] [Original]

Buddhism
retroactively completes philosophy

>> No.14599072

Is that why advaita vedanta tried to copy it?

>> No.14599083

Superstitious, life-denying nonsense.

>> No.14599153
File: 457 KB, 705x958, Adi Shankara.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14599153

>>14599060

"From whatever new points of view the Buddha's system is tested with reference to its probability, it gives way on all sides, like the walls of a well, dug in sandy soil. It has, in fact, no foundation whatever to rest upon and hence the attempts to use it as a guide in the practical concerns of life are mere folly. Moreover Buddha, by propounding the three mutually contradicting systems, teaching respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of ideas only and general nothingness, has himself made it clear that he was a man given to make incoherent assertions or else that hatred of all beings induced him to propound absurd doctrines by accepting which they would become thoroughly confused…Buddha’s doctrine has to be entirely disregarded by all those who have a regard for their own happiness."

Adi Shankara - Brahma Sutra Bhasya 2.2.32.

>> No.14599177
File: 447 KB, 1630x1328, cryptobuddhism.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14599177

>>14599153
cryptobuddhist

>> No.14599385

>>14599083
Pretty sure it essentially and specifically is concerned with the existence of life. The superstitious adopted from Indian culture are also easily recognizable as irrelevant; contemplation only refutes them.

>> No.14600800

>>14599060
Nothing is perfect.
Nothing is ever completed until it ends.

That said, Buddhism is one of the quickest paths to the truth, it gets some things wrong such as the denial of self-annihilation, and denial of ones desires that only require oneself and create oneself is debatable.

>> No.14601472

>>14600800
Ah, I see you like the stoics.
Buddhism also seems to start to fall apart if you are skeptical of rebirth.

>> No.14601514

>>14599083
Nowadays the more superstitious theological aspects are seen more symbolically.

>> No.14601552
File: 297 KB, 1832x396, PB on happiness and suffering.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14601552

>> No.14601585

I don't understand no-self. Who is perceiving? Who is reborn? The Upanishads seem much more grounded on the hard problem of consciousness.

>> No.14601612

>>14601585
Perception is a creation of the five psycho-physical aggregates.

>> No.14601653
File: 544 KB, 885x442, 1549261743431.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14601653

>>14599153
cringe

>> No.14601685

>>14599083
False and gay

>> No.14601703
File: 632 KB, 1464x1986, Nietzsche187a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14601703

>>14599060
Buddhism is the opposite of how one should live. We ought hold in and follow are passions. Its weak as shit to fear suffering, take hold of suffering and redeem it by daring to live.

>> No.14601706

>>14601703
>dukkha = suffering
brainlet

>> No.14601708
File: 3.77 MB, 348x550, 1482435763519.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14601708

>>14599083
This, Buddhist is at its core nihilist Saṃsāra is fucking cringe. pepe anyways

>> No.14601715

>>14601706
>something painful and highly upsetting is not suffering
fuck off with the semantics

>> No.14601800

>>14601715
Not that anon but it isn't merely colloquial suffering, it's unsatisfactoriness which can be seen by craving. If you're gonna try to shit on the idea, at least understand it.

>> No.14601887
File: 2.21 MB, 1450x5947, 1579379153601.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14601887

>>14599153
>>14601585

>> No.14601967

>>14601585
Advaita suffer the same problem. If jiva is an illusion, who is being reborn? who is perceiving? who is it that achieves moksha? All of these problems were inherited from Buddhist metaphysics when it was plagiarized.

>> No.14602418

>>14601703
>Its weak as shit to fear suffering
It's basically the point of Buddhism, to stop fearing suffering.

>> No.14602439

>>14601800
I mean even adversion to something in Buddhism is ultimately a cause of dhukka because it's a kind of negative attachment.

>> No.14602441

>>14601967
Wait, isn't jiva cloaked in illusion, but not an illusion themselves?

>> No.14602506

>>14602441
I think you're thinking about Atman. Atman is all there is and there is no division in it so any idea of a soul being this particular soul as opposed to some other and this soul having this perception or this rebirth as opposed to other perceptions and rebirths are an illusion.

I personally think Buddhists have a better explanation of rebirth and consciousness as from my understanding the illusory nature of these are caused by faulty cognition which is co-dependently originated in the psycho-physical aggregates. Basically Buddhism believe in epistemic illusion while Hindus believe in ontological illusion.

I could be wrong though i'm not an expert on these things.

>> No.14602569

Advaita is based and true.
I have spoken.
That is all.

>> No.14602570

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying in Magadha in Nalaka Village. Then Jambukhadika the wanderer went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "'Stress, stress,' it is said, my friend Sariputta. Which type of stress [are they referring to]?"

"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."

"But is there a path, is there a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"Then what is the path, what is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path, my friend — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the path, this is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"It's an auspicious path, my friend, an auspicious practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness — enough for the sake of heedfulness."

>> No.14602576

>>14599060
Buddhism is not reconcilable with the Will to Power. Plus, Westerners who 'convert' to Buddhism are always absolute cringelords

>> No.14602621 [DELETED] 

>>14602576
Salvation is reconcilable with Will to Power because Buddha separated the profane with the sacred unlike pretty much all pagan religions and the Abrahamics. Now that pretty much all religions have adopted this separation since the Enlightenment it might seem that the Buddha went too far but that is only when viewed with modern eyes.

The Buddhist path is conducive to salvation and all it means is that that which is not within the path is NOT conducive to salvation but may very well be conducive to whatever the profane goal. So basically hunting is conducive to filling your belly/freezer but not salvation. War is conducive to defending your nation or expanding your nation but not to salvation. And yes this might seem like a "duh no shit sherlock" but that is only because you view it through post-enlightenment and pretty much all religions before that did not make such a distinction as war in Christianity/Islam/paganism might bring you salvation, and being a great poet and a king might have brought you salvation in paganism etc etc

I think the Buddha was right in this. But to say that Buddhism is not reconcilable with Will to Power is in a way both right and wrong.

>> No.14602630 [DELETED] 

>>14602621
>*salvation is not reconcilable with Will to Power

>> No.14602657

>>14601967
>Advaita suffer the same problem.
no it doesn't lol
>If jiva is an illusion, who is being reborn?
The Jiva is an illusion, this illusory being seems to transmigrate (which itself is illusory) but the component which allows for continuity is the Supreme Self, the Atma, which always observes the Jiva in whatever state its in. This always-present Atma is what is responsible for the continuity of experience and lives despite the Jiva and its transmigration being illusory.
>who is perceiving?
The Atma, through the vehicle of the intellect belonging to the Jiva which the Atma is identified with
>who is it that achieves moksha?
Moksha is the very nature of the Atma, when the Jiva is revealed as illusory and liberation reached, the Atma who was the inner self of that Jiva shines forth
>All of these problems were inherited from Buddhist metaphysics when it was plagiarized.
None of those are actually problems but just reflect your poor understanding of Advaita. Advaita didn't plagiarize anything from Buddhism, virtually every concept that people point to as evidence of this is already in the Upanishads.

>> No.14602843

>>14602569
No:
>>14601887

>> No.14602847

>>14602657
>Advaita didn't plagiarize anything from Buddhism,
Lmao --> >>14599177 & >>14601887

>> No.14602882

>>14602847
Both of those images have been dunked already, there have been multiple threads where people have quoted the exact Upanishad lines where all that stuff is found but you just pretend it never happened because you use the "muh influence" argument as a cope to avoid having to address the incoherent and illogical nature of Buddhist doctrine in contrast to the highly logical and coherent teachings of Advaita Vedanta

>> No.14602886

>>14602882
*have been debunked

>> No.14602900

>>14602882
>where people
yea, all these 'people' are just posting the exact same copy pastas with the exact same posting patterns. Ok buddy we believe you!

>> No.14602908
File: 64 KB, 819x756, 1562795959382.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14602908

>>14602657
>Advaita didn't plagiarize anything from Buddhism
cope

>> No.14602924

>>14602882
>Both of those images have been dunked already
No
And these are not just images but excerpts from the findings of experts in the field, including vedantins

>> No.14603036

>>14602657
but if Jiva is avidya, then vidya becomes impossible since only Brahman alone exists. How does one solve this 'highly logical and coherent teaching', seems like a paradox to me.

>> No.14603076

>>14601703
You not only don't understand Buddhism, but you also don't understand Nietzsche. It's just sad.

>> No.14603102
File: 28 KB, 450x565, 1574370583395.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14603102

>>14603036
One solves it by recognizing that Brahman comprise Jivas (ie multiplicity characterizing this unity). Indeed Ramanuja made quick work of Shankara by being the first to label him a prachannabuddha (crypto-buddhist).

Om.

>> No.14603298

>>14603036
>but if Jiva is avidya, then vidya becomes impossible since only Brahman alone exists
Not so, because vidya is synonymous with the attainment of Brahman via non-dual knowledge. The Jiva does not have to be real for this to be possible. To know Brahman is to be Brahman, and this non-dual knowledge at once reveals the Jiva as illusory while also causing the Atma who was the inner self of that illusory Jiva to shine forth in it's real nature as Brahman. Vidya dissolves the illusion to reveal the underlying conscious reality.
>>14603102
>multiplicity characterizing this unity)
Unfortunately this is repudiated by the Upanishads themselves, such as in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.19 which says: "Through the mind alone (It) is to be realised. There is no multiplicity whatsoever in It. He goes from death to death, who sees multiplicity, as it were, in It."

Ramanuja didn't really understand Advaita and a lot of his criticisms are strawmen (like he thought the Paramatma in Advaita is affected by ignorance for example when its not), but even so Advaitins replied to and refuted all his attacks against Advaita

>> No.14603329

>>14603298
>advaita is correct because advaita is correct about how advaita is correct!
>that refutation of advaita? advaita refuted it! and advaita is correct in its refutation, because advaita is correct!

that's a nice religious opinion you have there, advaitin. too bad it will never be more than an opinion. also too bad everyone except your own fellow cultists disagrees with you (see >>14601887 and >>14599177 ) you don't have any defense against those images other than repeating "yeah but that's wrong though!! the upanishads really are advaita" which is not an answer, it's your opinion.

what's it like to be a cryptobuddhist and btfo by ALL hindus other than your own minority sect?

>> No.14603351

>>14603329
Based

>> No.14603499
File: 36 KB, 650x659, EMo3lMzXUAEgGNo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14603499

>>14599153

Buddhism is not meant to be a "practical" way of improving your "happiness" it is a mystical system of transcendental awareness

>> No.14603530

Buddhism is the most mind-numblingly boring philosophy ever, it literally worships tolerating mind-numbing boredom. The purpose for this is to demonize those who complain about the condition of their society and desire to change things. The great irony is that for all its pathological permanence it ultimately worships sameness.

>> No.14603747
File: 30 KB, 367x400, 1574284050179.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14603747

>>14602576
Salvation is not reconcilable with Will to Power but a Buddhist life is. Buddha was basically the first person to separate the profane and the sacred which only have started looking too extreme now that the rest of the world since the enlightenment have done the same thing. Until then all religions be it pagan or Abrahamic had ways to reach salvation through profane action. Pagan and Abrahamics both had a way to reach salvation through war for example, be it jihad in Islam or cleaning your sins through fighting in the holy land etc. One could even reach salvation by becoming a great poet or king in paganism. The Buddha rejected this but he didn't reject the idea of Will to Power, only that it is not conducive to nibbana.

In Buddhism only understanding and the path is conducive to enlightenment whereas hunting is conducive to filling your belly/freezer, war is conducive to expanding/defending your nation and poetry is conducive to beauty etc but none of them are conducive to salvation. It should also be remembered that the precepts etc in Buddhism are not laws set by a divine monarch in the way the commandments where if you break them it is not up to you whether you get any further toward salvation, only grace and forgiveness; both of which is wholly outside yourself, can get you back on track.

So in a way Will to Power is both reconcilable and not. And ultimately it is silly to demand that action in the world must be connected to salvation. To wish that one is also acting toward enlightenment when one defends ones family against roaming marauders would be a blemish on the concept of duty.

>> No.14604155

Can someone fucking explain Nagarjuna? Was he a nihilist or what? Or is there some thing-in-itself that he is getting at that can only be gotten at if one first negates the possibility of getting to it through big brained thinking first?
>Mark Siderits and Jay L. Garfield have argued that Nāgārjuna's view is that "the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth"
How is this not nihilism?

>> No.14604329
File: 359 KB, 1297x2377, IMG_5305.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14604329

>>14604155
>Or is there some thing-in-itself that he is getting at that can only be gotten at if one first negates the possibility of getting to it through big brained thinking first?
That's a minority interpretation of him, most people consider him as denying that there is any existent transcendental reality. I wouldn't recommend wasting a lot of time on him though, he was refuted by the Buddhist scholar Richard Robinson (pic related), who showed how a lot of his logic in the MMK is flawed

>> No.14604336
File: 14 KB, 692x208, robinson.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14604336

>>14604329
then why did gaudapada and shankara copy it so much?

reminder that shankara is considered a cryptobuddhist by most hindus, even advaitins themselves

>> No.14604384

>>14603329
>you don't have any defense against those images
Actually I've quoted the Hindu texts before which shows that those ideas of Advaita appeared in Hindu writings before Buddha and Nagarjuna, which debunks the argument that Shankara took them from Buddhism as he cites those same texts. Typically you just reply with ad-himinem attacks though so I usually don't consider it worth my time to reapond, but if you insist I will. Take the claims made in >>14602908 for example.

>Advaita's and Buddhism's theories on True Reality and Maya are similar,[7]
The pre-Buddhist Brihadaranyaka Upanishad mentions the doctrine of Maya by name when it states in verse 2.5.19. that Brahman appears as manifold because of maya. Maya is a Hindu concept predating Buddhism which was subsequently incorporated into Buddhism. Likewise, the first text in all of Indian philosophy Hindu or non-Hindu to make the distinction between Absolute and non-Absolute knowledge is Mundaka Upanishad verse 1.1.4., where Advaita derives it's notion of Absolute knowledge from. Buddha never mentioned the Absolute vs. non-Absolute distinction, the Mundaka did first and then Nagarjuna did hundreds of years later. The roots of this notion can be traced to the pre-Buddhist Brihadaranyaka Upanishad which in verse 2.3.1. makes the distinction between a higher Brahman to be known which is unlimited, subtle and immortal, and a lower Brahman which is limited, gross and mortal.

>Frank Whaling states that the monastic practices and monk tradition in Advaita are similar to those found in Buddhism.[8]
The pre-Buddhist Brihadaranyaka Upanishad it talks about and praises monasticism in verses 4.4.22 & 4.5.2 among others. The emperor Janaka is described as renouncing the world and becoming a monk as part of his enlightenment, this predates Buddhism

>> No.14604393

>>14604384
>'Shankara and his followers borrowed much of their dialectic form of criticism from the Buddhists
That's incorrect, the scholar Chandradhar Sharma notes: "The dialectical method though developed in the Mádhyamika school did not originate with it or even with Buddha. Its origin is found in the Upanisads and its first exponent is the sage Yajñavalkya. The doctrinal similarities, as pointed out by Gaudapada himself,are due to the fact that Buddha himself took these doctrines from the Upanisads and these were developed in the Maháyána schools."

>His Brahman was very much like the sunya of Nagarjuna
No it's not, Brahman is considered by Advaita to be a transcendental and eternal conscious entity with it's own stable svabhava or self-nature, whereas sunya refers to the lack of svabhava in everything, sunya means that nothing has a stable independent existence like Advaita says Brahman has

>The debts of Shankara to the self-luminosity of the Vijnanavada Buddhism can hardly be overestimated.
That's incorrect, the pre-Buddhist Brihadaranyaka describes the Atma as self-luminous in (4.3.6.) - "When the sun has set, Yajnavalkya and the moon has set and the fire has gone out and speech has stopped, what serves as light for a man?" "The self, indeed, is his light, for with the self as light he sits, goes out, works and returns." The Atma being self-luminous is a Hindu teaching that predates Buddhism.

>> No.14604394

>>14604384
>my personal internet interpretation "debunks" the interpretation of all scholars and most hindus, including advaitins

most hindus, including advaitins, and all scholars agree that shakara was a "hidden buddhist"

you disagree because you're a religious advaitin. your opinions don't mean shit. you're on the same level as an southern evangelical claiming the bible is infallible. nobody cares.

>> No.14604398

>>14604393
>state that Gaudapada took over the Buddhist doctrines that ultimate reality is pure consciousness
That's incorrect, Gaudapada did not have to take this from them because the Aitareya Upanishad directly states "Consciousness is Brahman" (3.1.4.), and according to the 1998 review by Olivelle and other scholars the Aitareya is pre-Buddhist. Also, the notion that ultimate reality is pure consciousness wasn't a part of Buddhism until the rise of Yogachara in the first millennium AD, it's not mentioned in the Pali Canon at all.

>'Gaudapada's Karika bears many doctrinal and terminological similarities with Nagarjuna's Karika and with the works of Asanga and Vasubandhu. Besides, there is the methodological similarity in the employment of the dialectic between Gaudapada and the Madhyamika Buddhists
That same author in the exact same book (which anyone can download on lib-gen to verify) ends up concluding based on the evidence that Gaudapada's ideas and the dialectic comes from the Upanishads, your own source argues against you here

>notice the similar terminology
>prakrter anyathābhāvo na hijatupapadyate (MMK 15.8, Nagarjuna 3rd century CE)
>prakṛter anyathābhāvo na kathaṃcidbhaviṣyati (MK 4.7, Gaudapada 6th century CE)
This is just saying the immortal doesn't become mortal and vice versa which a basic statement of how X can't become the opposite of X without it being a contradiction in terms, hardly a unique insight of Buddhism. This is in fact yet another Hindu teaching that predates Nagarjuna. The Bhagavad-Gita which most scholars date to around 200 BC, several hundred years before Nagarjuna says in verse 2.16 "Of the transient there is no endurance, and of the eternal there is no cessation. " The Buddha never mentioned this in the Pali Canon, and so once again the earliest expression of this idea in Indian philosophy we find in a Hindu scripture pre-dating Nagarjuna.

>> No.14604400
File: 123 KB, 633x758, 1579473136906.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14604400

>>14604384
>>14604393
>IT'S NOT CRYPTOBUDDHISM!!!
>I DON'T CARE WHAT THE SCHOLARS SAY, OR EVEN WHAT OTHER ADVAITAFAGS SAY! IT'S NOT!!
>I DEBUNKED IT WITH MY OPINIONS! I'LL DEBUNK YOU TOO! I'LL DEBUNK EVERYTHING!!

Guenonfag having a meltdown, everyone gather round!

>> No.14604411
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14604411

>the absolute state of tradfags
>inb4 "the charges of pedophilia were dropped, also in islam it's normal to molest children!"

The traditionalist or perennialist perspective began to be enunciated in the 1920s by the French philosopher René Guénon and, in the 1930s, by Schuon himself.

On October 11th 1991, Frithjof Schuon, the leader of an international religious order, was indicted on the felony charge of child molestation. committed under "cult pressure and influence". The indictment, passed down by a five member Grand Jury, headed by Lucy Cherbas, stated:

"that Frithjof Schuon... did perform fondling or touching [on three girls] 15 years of age, 14 years of age and 13 years of age, respectively, with the intent to arouse or satisfy sexual desires of Frithjof Schuon, in violation of I.C. 35-42 43. [And that] said persons were compelled to submit to touching by force or imminent threat of force, to wit: by undue cult influences and cult pressures, in violation of 35-42-4-8."

Jesus Garcia Varela, a high ranking inner circle member of the cult, had been investigated by the Louisville Police in 1991 for nude photos of his 2 young daughters. He escaped prosecution of this episode by claiming that it was a common practice in Spain to visually record a girl's puberty.

Michael Fitzgerald's son was present at the Gatherings. The boy, then perhaps 14, had been made to watch his mother and her sister, Jennifer Casey, dance nude for Schuon at one of the Gatherings.

>> No.14604424

>>14604398
>>14604393
>>14604384
>my religious interpretations are correct because my religion says they're correct

ok cryptobuddhist

>> No.14604467
File: 28 KB, 1110x248, 1577834873152.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14604467

Reminder that this was proved to be one of the people who post this exact post >>14599153 on /lit/, with the same picture and quote.

>> No.14604764

>>14604467
It wasn't though. It was proven that some autist had been compiling a bunch of posts from various swedish anons all over 4chan thinking it was all the same guy(guenonfag) and then one guy on /lit/ admitted that some of the posts were him but some wasn't and in the same thread guenonfag thought he had been hanging out with that anon on some message platform and had been exchanging emails but guenonfag was wrong too and that was apparently some other swedish guy

tl;dr there are probably thousands of swedes here and they might be pulling all the strings

>> No.14604904
File: 278 KB, 1078x1636, 1579745591405.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14604904

>>14604764
The Swede was proved to be one of the guenon shills. Keep coping.

>> No.14604951

>>14604904
Yeah it was proven that he posted some copypasta that he got from guenonfag but he also said he had literally never posted on /int/ or had any contact with guenonfag.

Don't see why he would lie about that as he admitted to being the one doing the trap thirst posts.

>> No.14604972

>>14604951
What a story Matthew. Thanks for filling us in on the boring details of your email exchange with the Swedish cum-eating Guenonian.

Keep inspiring more Guenonian cum-eaters with your shitposts. At least it's better than the Schuon pedophilia stuff.

>> No.14604983

Updating punished Guenonfag timeline:

2018
>Buddhism has not really degenerated. There are some east Asian schools that have become too 'religious' and some Theravada schools may have become a little too westernized in thought but there are still tens of millions of practicing Traditional Buddhists.

2019
>It's been 24 hours and none of you ming-mongs have replied to this. All the more embarrassing considering YoU CaN't HaVe Up WiThOuT dOwN mY dUdEz loooooollzzlz lmafaooo :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!1!111! was intended to be the epic GOTCHA retort. Writhing animals.

2020
>LOL U MAD??? BASED EPIC. seethe CRINGE le epic guenon (pbuh) XDDDd
>(replying to above) Based... Thank you so much for this post my good friend... I will begin reading guenon immediately..
>I do NOT eat trap cum, that's the other Guenonfriend I exchange emails with

>> No.14604990

>>14604972
>>14604983
friendly reminder that the guenon hunters are more schizo than guenonfag himself

>> No.14605013
File: 323 KB, 1882x772, guenonspam.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14605013

>>14604990
When you stare into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you..

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