Guenon on Buddhism

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Guenon on Buddhism Anonymous Sun Nov 24 21:41:51 2019 No.14230915 [Reply] [Original]

Someone please explain to me:
Why did Guenon eventually conclude that Buddhism was just a continuation of the Upanishadic teachings?
Why did he believe that Buddhism in its earliest form taught of the Brahman, the soul, the path to immortality...etc (and don't just say "because Buddhism originated in India and spiritual teachings all revolved around the Vedas and Upanishads").
I've seen some very obscure translations around of suttas from the Pali Canon which lean towards Buddhism being a sort of proto-Vedanta - is this what people are getting this from?
It is already clear that Mahayana (and later) texts and teachings came historically after the Pali Canon. Is the idea that Mahayana was a rough return to form of some sort of pre-Pali Canon Buddhism? Or is the claim that everyone is just mis-translating the PC texts and that Buddhism taught Brahman and the soul all along?

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 24 21:42:22 2019 No.14230916 first

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 24 21:43:15 2019 No.14230925 First

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 24 21:43:35 2019 No.14230929 >guenonthread >having any intelligent discussion whatsoever Ok guenonposter

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 24 21:50:29 2019 No.14230970 >>14230916 >>14230925 anyone?

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 24 22:06:37 2019 No.14231090 >>14230915 Hard to say with Buddhism. The scriptures have been corrupted like In all religions

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 00:02:09 2019 No.14231730 >>14230916 okay guénonposter

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 00:17:27 2019 No.14231790 >>14230970 These two essays by Coomaraswamy on original Buddhism should help explain why https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lZZwozWViHtwolDHzM8GB1qgWfKbLkOh/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ORSdqJ-1LmVMgAHwYiRt0SwqeHIiRM6F/view

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:30:00 2019 No.14232064 File: 843 KB, 1630x1328, 1574220616901.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This should clear it up.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:35:48 2019 No.14232083 >>14231790 Thanks I will have a look >>14232064 Looks based, but I thought Buddhists didnt believe in the concept of Atman?

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:45:44 2019 No.14232125 Is this thread the renowned guenonfag or someone else satirizing him? How many levels of memes are we on right now

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:49:57 2019 No.14232143 >>14232125 okay guénonposter.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:54:22 2019 No.14232165 >>14232125 >renowned >guenonfag ok guenonposter

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:54:52 2019 No.14232167 >>14232165 okay guénonposter

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:55:55 2019 No.14232172 >>14232165 >>14232167 Keep bumping the thread sandnig. everyone knows its you

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 01:58:22 2019 No.14232179 Guenonfag here, can we please keep the thread on topic ty

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:09:44 2019 No.14232214 >>14232172 okgp

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:12:49 2019 No.14232219 >>14230915 Mahavira and the Buddha were the same person

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:14:41 2019 No.14232226 >>14232219 They do have suspiciously similar biographies. but I doubt they were the same - Guenonfag

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:17:30 2019 No.14232235 File: 239 KB, 999x372, 1574663964802.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:19:10 2019 No.14232240 >>14230915 Because he was a retarded pseud

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:21:01 2019 No.14232247 >>14232240 Good argument guénonposter

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:21:15 2019 No.14232248 where do i begin with guenon?

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:22:04 2019 No.14232252 >>14232248 Crisis of the Modern world then introduction to Hindu doctrines - Guenonfag

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:22:15 2019 No.14232254 >>14232248 read guenon

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:23:31 2019 No.14232259 File: 1.29 MB, 2896x2896, 1574501891114.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:24:31 2019 No.14232261 >>14232247 >>14232248 >>14232252 >>14232254 >>14232259 okay guénonposter

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:24:50 2019 No.14232262 File: 3.84 MB, 6161x5009, 1574502839447.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] -Guenonfag

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:28:30 2019 No.14232275 >>14232262 Are there many other Perennialist philosophers worth reading aside from Guenon?

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:30:32 2019 No.14232285 >>14232275 Check out Frithjof Schuon and Amanda Coomaraswarmy http://www.sophiaperennis.com/ -Guenonfag

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:33:40 2019 No.14232302

can someone explain how buddhism - which is essentially religious anarchism in that to be a buddhist your goal is to be a buddha, not a follower - is compatible at all with any other religion? for instance, vedanta and islam are predicated on a warm embrace of hierarchy. and also can someone explain how guenon reconciles all these religions together when they're all so different

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:34:56 2019 No.14232311

>>14232302
for instance,
Vedanta is a philosophy taught by the Vedas, the most ancient scriptures of India. Its basic teaching is that our real nature is divine. God, the underlying reality, exists in every being. Religion is therefore a search for self-knowledge, a search for the God within. We should not think of ourselves as needing to be SAVED. We are never LOST. At worst we are living in ignorance of our true nature. Find God. That is the only purpose in life. ~ Ramakrishna
is utterly contradictory to allah being one singular god

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:42:05 2019 No.14232331 >>14232311 Sufi Muslims would definitely disagree with your claim that its contradictory

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:44:54 2019 No.14232337 >>14232331 i doubt sufists make the claim that we are all god though

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:46:01 2019 No.14232338 >>14232337 you would be surprised. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansur_Al-Hallaj

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:47:05 2019 No.14232345 >>14232337 And saying that everyone is literally a god isnt the same as saying that the one God (Brahman) is the underlying reality of all humans

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:50:20 2019 No.14232354 >>14232338 >>14232345 Sura 50:6 And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein -Guenonfag

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:50:50 2019 No.14232356 >>14232345 explain how that's not just pantheism

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:52:07 2019 No.14232361 File: 12 KB, 683x313, Capture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14232356 It isnt Pantheism, Its more like Panentheism

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:57:36 2019 No.14232380 >>14232361 how tf is god grearter than the universe if he is the universe according to vedanta

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 02:59:19 2019 No.14232382 >>14232380 Being Immaterial makes him greater than the Material universe. Think of Platos theory of forms in themselves. Every material object is based on an immaterial archetype, but the archetypes themselves are greater than the material

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 03:19:09 2019 No.14232437 >>14230915 Guenon was bad in many respects, history in particular.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 03:37:18 2019 No.14232481 >>14232356 it is, by far the most common summation of the monist tendency in the upanishads (which got stronger over time, but is not always dominant, as there are plenty of dualist and pagan strains in earlier vedas) is that they are "pantheistic"

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 05:36:33 2019 No.14232757 Did Guenon believe that the Buddha was the 9th Avatar of Vishnu?

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:17:55 2019 No.14232982

>>14230915
>Why did Guenon eventually conclude that Buddhism was just a continuation of the Upanishadic teachings?
He misunderstood it or lacked knowledge of it.

>Guénon's initial evaluation of Buddhism was plagued by an astonishing lack of understanding. This evaluation was suppressed in the English edition of Orient et Occident (Paris, 1924); Guénon later modified it in part, by making some concessions to a "Brahmanic" version of Buddhism, which is truly a Buddhism evirated of the specific and valid elements it possessed at its inception. These specific elements concerned an autonomous way of realization. In this realization, the action of a qualified individual who strives to attain the Unconditioned, even by means of violent efforts, is the necessary counterpart of the descent of a force from above which does not need "initiatory bureaucracies." What Guénon had to say in an unfortunate essay concerning "The Need for a Traditional Exotericism," must also be rejected, since it offers dangerous incentives and alibis to a reactionary and petty-bourgeois conformism. The pedantic representatives of Guénonian scholasticism should rather strive to reach a deeper understanding of the true meaning of the Way of the Left Hand, which is not any less traditional than the Way of Right Hand, and which has the advantage of emphasizing the transcendent dimension proper of every truly initiatory realization and aspiration. (Evola, 1935)

>I've seen some very obscure translations around of suttas from the Pali Canon which lean towards Buddhism being a sort of proto-Vedanta - is this what people are getting this from?
The scholarly consensus is that Vedanta (at least some form of it) was heavily influenced by Buddhism which had very little to do with the Upanishads according to renowned Indologist Hajime Nakamura:
>"In the early days of Buddhism most of the Vedic scriptures already existed, and various branches of study concerning the Veda were actively pursued. References both to the Veda and to Vedic branches of learning are frequent in the scriptures of early Buddhism. The early Upanisads must also have existed at this time and even before, but we find in the earliest Buddhist sources no reference to the name Upanisad nor to branches of study immediately concerning the Upanisads. We conclude, therefore, that the Upanisads were known to these early Buddhists merely as part of the Veda, without special value being attached to them. The school which specially esteemed and concentrated upon the Upanisads, if it existed at all, was insignificant and was not recognized as an independent philosophical school by the Buddhists." (Nakamura, 1955)

>was Mahayana a rough return to form of some sort of pre-Pali Canon Buddhism?
No

>Or is the claim that everyone is just mis-translating the PC texts and that Buddhism taught Brahman and the soul all along?
The PC in virtually every translation is quite blunt about the Buddha's teachings which denies both Brahman and Atman.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:18:57 2019 No.14232985 >>14231090 People keep saying this but I've seen zero evidence.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:30:54 2019 No.14233023 >>14232985 Its true though

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:34:01 2019 No.14233038 >>14232982 >The scholarly consensus is that Vedanta (at least some form of it) was heavily influenced by Buddhism no it's not lol, stop lying

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:38:02 2019 No.14233052 op reminds me of when i was 18. What a retarded kid looking for pebbels like jung.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:38:46 2019 No.14233055 File: 14 KB, 227x222, 2353245.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14233052

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:40:55 2019 No.14233066 >>14233055 ur a retard lmao

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:43:02 2019 No.14233073 >>14233066 >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DONT LOOK FOR MEANING IN LIFE >DUUUDE JUST MAKE YOUR OWN LMAO >THE MEANING IN LIFE IS JUST TO EXPERIENCE PLEASURE LMAOOO

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:43:58 2019 No.14233076

>>14230915
I’d say historically because his teacher was a Hindu, and Hindus dislike Buddhism.

Guenon initially distrusted Buddhism. One may also assume that because Guenon emphasized hierarchy and priestly authority, and Buddhism criticized the caste system, Guenon saw Buddhism as anti-traditional.

He later revised this view, but on a possibly erroneous basis. He maintained that the the anti-traditional elements belonged to the lesser path (Hinayana), while the truly esoteric teaching was contained in the great path (Mahayana), which was enough alike the Vedanta to earn his approval, and in the case of Tibet at least maintained a rigid social hierarchy (even the doctrine of the king of the world). He also saw in this Hinayana Mahayana duality a parallel between the lesser mysteries and the greater mysteries of Western Esotericism, so it was neat.

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:45:41 2019 No.14233086

>>14233073
>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DONT LOOK FOR MEANING IN LIFE
life is meaningless, life is an opportunity to create meaning. Life is a neutral opportunity. Death is the end of that opportunity.

Idk what buddhism, guenon or the upanishads have to do with ur life. anyways, stoopid retard lmaooo

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:47:49 2019 No.14233098 File: 56 KB, 621x702, 3245345.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14233086 >LOOOL DUDE LIFE HAS NO MEANING LMAOOOOOOOO >WHAT MEANING DOES ANYONE FIND IN BEING A RELIGITARD LMAMOO

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:49:29 2019 No.14233106 >>14233086 >>14233098 Stop you two. Go ruin another thread.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:49:52 2019 No.14233109 >>14233098 are you done projecting retard lol.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:51:24 2019 No.14233118 File: 23 KB, 600x800, 1574685980307.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14233086 >Life inherently has no meaning

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:53:07 2019 No.14233122 >>14233106 idk man, its easy to make retards mad. >>14233118 lol another wojak retard

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:53:48 2019 No.14233124 >>14233122 Its easy to trigger Nihilists with a Guenon thread too

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:54:48 2019 No.14233132 >>14233124 can you read what i wrote >>14233086 >life is meaningless, life is an opportunity to create meaning. Life is a neutral opportunity. Death is the end of that opportunity.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:56:33 2019 No.14233144 >>14233122 >>14233124 Learn to disagree and tolerate opposing views.

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:57:52 2019 No.14233151

>>14232985
This. There is not much evidence that Vinaya Piṭaka or Sutta Pitaka have been corrupted. Most of it have complete equivalents in Tibetan/Chinese and those were not even translated from pali but most likely a Sanskrit and Gandharian canon.

Quite amazing really. But I guess that is what happens when you create a borderline nothing but monastic religion.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:58:45 2019 No.14233155 >>14233132 Its impossible to create objective meaning. Only subjective meaning, which is just pretending you have meaning in life, which is what religitards also do

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 07:59:54 2019 No.14233159 >>14233151 the corruption would have occured during the time when the Buddhas teachings were orally handed down from master to disciple. Most of it probably wasn't intentional, just being misinterpreted by people

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:00:16 2019 No.14233162 >>14233086 If you genuinely think life is meaningless but that one has some sort of opportunity to create meaning in life and you do not realize Absurdism from this then you're just too stupid for philosophy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:00:56 2019 No.14233163 >>14233159 This is the same case for Abrahamic religions. There was a gap between the Oral transmission of the Torah/Gospel/Quran and the written form of it

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:03:19 2019 No.14233169

>>14233155
im religious but do not follow any kind of organized religion. Meaning can be anything retard, as long as generations of retards talk about u, you made something out of ur life.

This gueanon retards is still being talked about and he influenced so many people.

Look at this wojak postin retard>>14233098

Thats all he is and no one will remember him and he will die a meaningless life talking about guenon and upanishads shit lol

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:03:22 2019 No.14233170 >>14233159 >the corruption happened during oral transmission Then how the fuck do you measure corruption since you do not even know what the uncorrupted would look like?

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:05:14 2019 No.14233175 >>14233170 I never said it could be measured, just that there is no way it has survived 100% accurately

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:06:00 2019 No.14233177 you gotta admit, guenonfag's q&a style placed on 4chan is absolute genius

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:07:26 2019 No.14233184 >>14233177 Why thank you, I do find meaning in it -Guenonfag

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:08:31 2019 No.14233187

>>14233162
all i know is that most /lit/ anons or people in general live meaningless sheeple lives. Nothing wrong. You just will die a meaningless life anon. Yes you. While guenon lived a meaningful life, you retards talk about gay shit. At least guenon lived a meaningful life and still talked about retards lol

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:13:19 2019 No.14233208 >>14233187 All your supposed meaning is rendered absurd at the point of death.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:14:30 2019 No.14233212 >>14232380 Brahman is the universe AND 6 inches.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:15:05 2019 No.14233213 >>14233208 why? even if you're a reductive materialist, all that is here now is all that will ever be. every action done in the past is always with us in the present

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:19:41 2019 No.14233227 >>14233208 >All your supposed meaning is rendered absurd at the point of death. You will influence generations of people. Like hitler, jesus, freud, insert name here

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:22:12 2019 No.14233242 >>14233227 It dosent matter. Life literally has no meaning. If you think otherwise you are a religitard

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:30:41 2019 No.14233273

>>14233242
Life is in living. It is not a thing, it is a process. There is no way to attain to life except by living it, except by being alive, flowing, streaming with it. If you are seeking the meaning of life in some dogma, in some philosophy, in some theology, that is the sure way to miss life and meaning both.

Life is not somewhere waiting for you, it is happening in you. It is not in the future as a goal to be arrived at, it is herenow, this very moment - in your breathing, circulating in your blood, beating in your heart. Whatsoever you are is your life, and if you start seeking meaning somewhere else you will miss it. Man has done that for centuries.

Concepts have become very important, explanations have become very important - and the real has been completely forgotten. We don't look to that which is already here; we want rationalizations.

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:42:38 2019 No.14233316

>>14233213
>>14233227
Who the fuck cares? The meaningless of life is judged from a phenomenological position. You can't transcend your own subjectivity so all your great exploits are ultimately meaningless. The meaning or lack thereof is not in that of bumping particles, it is of Experience.

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:45:53 2019 No.14233322 >>14233316 I'd kill myself if it wasn't for the fact that the act itself is as absurd as life itself.

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 08:51:24 2019 No.14233346

>>14230915
Well he was just wrong, if Buddhism was a genuine religion soulless gooks wouldn't have adopted it, Buddha was some egoistic hippie who thought he knew better than others, so he came up with some hippie bullshit and hijacked a religion, just like Jesus and Muhammad.

Anonymous Mon Nov 25 09:04:15 2019 No.14233384

>>14233346
>Buddha was some egoistic hippie

if he is such a hippie, dont even call him buddha. Don't bother at all. But you are so used to the word. Do you even know his real name? Also buddhism is gay just like all the organized religions.

https://www.osho.com/read/osho/osho-on-topics/buddha

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 09:17:28 2019 No.14233431 >>14233038 You're right, my apologies, I meant to say that Advaita Vedanta was heavily influenced by Buddhism. Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita are the true heirs of the Upanishadic tradition.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 09:19:54 2019 No.14233444 >>14233384 why would I know the name of some cuck?

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 09:23:29 2019 No.14233465 >>14233444 so, he's an egoist hippie cuck? Ok mr. intellectual

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 09:24:59 2019 No.14233470 >>14233465 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 09:37:29 2019 No.14233506 >>14232985 >People keep saying this Actually its all the same guy. He has a lot of free time. Probably you are also this guy, and I'm replying to you talking to yourself. I'm not you though, I'm me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 10:23:42 2019 No.14233639 I hate this board

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 10:29:31 2019 No.14233651 >>14233163 The Qur'an was dictated quite early it just wasn't collated into a unified text until the first Caliph, and the authoritative text wasn't extensively copied and disseminated until the third caliph

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 11:55:24 2019 No.14233989 >>14233076 This is the right answer, but it got lost in the middle of the shit hurricane

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 14:34:34 2019 No.14234865 >>14230915 Recommended reading: The Advaita Tradition in Indian Philosophy, by Chandradhar Sharma. Explains it all, really.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 14:40:37 2019 No.14234894 >>14234865 Imagine giving a fuck about some book written by a guy called "Chandradhar Sharma".

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 15:15:18 2019 No.14235059 >>14234894 Imagine reading fuckin books

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 25 15:35:15 2019 No.14235184 >>14235059 Imagine being on a literature board, on an Indian philosophy thread, talking shit about reading and Indian philosophy. But then again, we need contrary opinions in order not to stagnate.

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