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14188480 No.14188480 [Reply] [Original]

Can anyone actually give educated reasons for being an atheist?

>> No.14188508

No. Atheism is brain damage

>> No.14188520

>>14188480
as the cliche goes, you are already an atheist for most of the 4000+ gods humanity has ever believed in.
so, you first.

>> No.14188526
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14188526

>>14188480
I have never met an intelligent atheist.

>> No.14188531
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14188531

>>14188520

>> No.14188538

>>14188520
you only believe that because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of religion

>> No.14188550

There's no higher being
fuck off faggot

>> No.14188552

>>14188480
God is an ambiguous phrase, so believing in it is about believing in an undefined principle. This can only change your behavior through so me unreasonable form of emotional manipulation. Faith and irrational thinking are identical concepts, and irrational thought ought to be resisted

>> No.14188558

>>14188538
ok anon whatever. see you at the temple of horus later

>> No.14188563
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14188563

>>14188480
If they could, they wouldn't be an atheist.

So, NO.

>> No.14188566

>>14188480
Maybe this is because I went to a Catholic school growing up and then studied theology at university, but I don't understand how intelligent people can be theists. What compels you to believe ancient creation myths invented by people who understood less about the world than the average high school student today?

>> No.14188572

>>14188566
schizophrenia

>> No.14188573

>>14188480
the problem of evil

>> No.14188589

>>14188552
Because rational thinking is a well-defined activity to aspire to and not an ideological apparatus in itself?

>> No.14188590

>>14188566
Unfortunately you’re trapped in the midwits cycle. Only big brains and morons believe in God. Everyone else is condemned to atheism.
I could give you an overarching description of the journey I took, I was raised agnostic in a science family and did my degree in chemistry. After being disillusioned with science I concluded that science is just applied philosophy and spent about five years studying philosophy. Then I eventually got spammed by Christians on /lit/ of all places so I read the Gospel of John, that was my first and only real encounter with religion. But it knocked a lot of scientific and philosophical pieces that’d been knocking around in my brain immediately into place. Obviously none of it is believable to, but from my position now, having looked at a variety of problems from different angles for about a decade. It all makes sense. I’ve spent the last two years just devouring religious texts on everything from Hinduism to Zoroastrianism. But I still have many unanswered questions.

>> No.14188598

>>14188566
Maybe a worse scientific understanding of the world. But I think the further along I’ve gone with my education the more I’ve started to resonate with religious insights that I used to find unintelligible

>> No.14188605

>>14188590
>reading books

fucking idiot. have you even tried talking to god? You know it's just humans that wrote that nonsense right? you make me so mad

>> No.14188608

>>14188480
This just doesn't seem like the kind of world that would be made by a perfect, loving creator. It seems more like the kind of world that would be made by a narcissistic software developer.
I admit that this doesn't rule out gnosticism.

>> No.14188609

>>14188590
This. I think it really began with higher level philosophy classes I took in college. Particularly philosophy of science and the realization that science is nothing but “discourse with consequences” per Lacan

>> No.14188613

>>14188589
If you read some shit like pinker, yeah, he uses "logic" and "rationality" as vague buzzwords resulting in a kind of sacred cow worship (disgusting). But if instead you read some logicians or analytical philosophers, there are pretty rigid definition to rules of logic, and the logic of a sentence can become strictly falsifiable. It's a shame imo that it's pretty much only taught at upper level universities instead of early childhood

>> No.14188614

>>14188590
Ok, big brain, what is God?

>> No.14188615

>>14188566
Thinking that all theists believe ancient creation myths makes you the depressingly average atheist.

>> No.14188620

>>14188615
Blasphemy!

>> No.14188621

>>14188608
I don’t really have an issue with the problem of evil. I’ve always liked the Hegelian idea of god as the devil inverted

>> No.14188630

>>14188621
It's not even the problem of evil, it's more like, the problem of incompetence. The world is a disaster; "evil" is just one form that the disaster takes.

>> No.14188631

>>14188615
The theists do believe in the ancient creation myths, unless your point is to include newer wacky religions like scientology. But I assume you're referring to deism, with which I take no issue. As for me, I never said I'm an atheist, just that I don't understand how someone can be a theist.

>> No.14188647

>>14188613
I guess I have issues with falsifiability as the cornerstone of any epistemically system. Certain insights aren’t subject to a test of empirical falsifiability. Also the idea that we can rigidly designate objects with discourse, i.e. a correlationist view of reality has fallen more and more out of fashion in analytic thought. I’d say the trend now is some kind of pragmatism that looks kind of Hegelian. Look into Pittsburg Hegelianism

>> No.14188652

>>14188630
What the hell does this mean

>> No.14188654

Theists are deluded people thinking that they can articulate something that is by definition inarticulate.

>> No.14188656

>>14188630
I wonder if it's possible that we do live in the best of all possible worlds, but it wasn't made for men, but rather someone else entirely

>> No.14188659

>>14188613
I feel sort of bad for analytics: they don't know that this game has already been played out. But if they really want to understand logic, they should learn the Haskell programming language. Not just "learn you a Haskell for great good," but really learn it. Learn the GHC language extensions, learn about type families and undecidable instances, learn why top-level Template Haskell splices introduce symbol table breaks. Because I think that's about the only way to really integrate the limitations of logic into your life, and then you'll never think to say something as daft as "the logic of a sentence can become strictly falsifiable."

>> No.14188661

>>14188614
As if God can be circumscribed by language and is not the ineffable Real shining from within the very impasse of the symbolic order itself

>> No.14188668

>>14188659
Isn’t Gödel’s incompleteness Theorem sort of the final knock down argument for anyone who thinks like this

>> No.14188673

>>14188661
So you're an atheist?

>> No.14188680

>>14188673
Absolutely not

>> No.14188683

>>14188659
quite a few philosophers acknowledge the limits of reason starting with Kant and continuing to today
I have much more reading to do, but am very interested in what a limits of rationality are, and if it reopens the possibility of a god that transcends human rationality

>> No.14188696

>>14188614
The integral function of entropy itself. The metaphysical “force” or “field” that cannot even be called either of those things because it’s singular true property is to create the distinction that in itself underpins chaos and order I.e entropy which then subsequently spawns every other physical process.

>> No.14188697

>>14188661
So he's word salad. Gotcha.

Theists never have anything but fairy tales or incredibly vague definitions of God that make God virtually synonymous with existence.

The former is falsifiable bullshit, while with the latter, if God doesn't interact with the world in any meaningful way and only functions as a cause of existence, then I have no reason to be concerned with him.

I have maybe 80 years to exist, quite possibly much less. I have eternity to deal with some thing that stands outside existence and has no interaction with it outside the laws of science.

>> No.14188702

>>14188680
Sounds like cope to me.

>> No.14188708

>>14188480
Imagine being so dumb that you think you know whether or not god exists

>> No.14188711

>>14188697
it's like jazz if you gotta ask you'll never know

>> No.14188720

>>14188696
Ok how does that have a mind and why does it care if you masturbate? That sounds like Peterson level crypto-atheism.

>> No.14188733

>>14188647
I'll take you up on that. It looks like interesting reading. Right now the main objection I have is that once someone allows an abandonment of logic, miscommunications and ambiguities can slip in, and the tone of a sentence can become more important to our understanding than the content. So logic is the best defense against being misled by a charlatan. But idk, still haven't read Godel. Still having too much fun constructing tautologies

>> No.14188737

>>14188708
Imagine having beliefs

>> No.14188740

>>14188711
I used to feel the sublime, even during my social life I would go into flow states and just rant humorous and spiritual nonsense and people would love me. My pituitary calcified or something and I can't get into that state any more. I'm trying to rediscover it, but it's been over ten years and I'm struggling to get back

>> No.14188771
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14188771

>>14188737

>> No.14188773

Honest question. Atheists when you watch this what do you feel? Nothing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MroAVXjPdig

>> No.14188810

>>14188773
it sounds nice and I can almost relax and feel the beauty but then I realize it's a woman and the image of all the semen that's fused with her DNA ruins it for me.

>> No.14188825

>>14188773
yeah anon feelz mean god is realz

>> No.14188827

>>14188773
I feel an aesthetic harmony that the church does not have sole ownership of

>> No.14188858

>>14188773
It feels like I want to get my ass fucked by that woman dressed up like devil with a red dragon strap on.

>> No.14188873

>>14188773
I feel. There are chemical reactions in my brain that makes me feel a warm, awe feeling.

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/brain-the-inside-story/your-emotional-brain

>> No.14188886

>>14188827
I agree with that.

>> No.14188938
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14188938

>>14188873

>> No.14188988

>>14188938
>A Sye Ten argument in meme form
wewlaid

>> No.14189259

>>14188520
Not really I just believe they are demons pretending to be God so take that atheist tard.

>> No.14189316

>>14188773
>girl singing pretty music means god is real
If you feel something listening to shinto music, does that mean kami are real?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1d4cMqVIk

>> No.14189324

>>14188480
(A)gnosticism has nothing to do with the degree to which you "know". Agnosticism is a philosophical position that direct knowledge of God (whether through revelation, logic, "evidence" etc.) is impossible. This basic conflation of quite distinct things is the legacy of the philosophically-crude New Atheists.

>> No.14189331

>>14188480
Can anyone actually give educated reasons for not being an atheist?

>> No.14189341
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14189341

I just need one picture to logically refute all abrahamic religions

>> No.14189345

>>14188590
Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't agree with your nonsensical statements.
In reality, intellectual elites are overwhelmingly atheistic.

>> No.14189389

>>14189345
He means the real “big brains” aka contrarians on the internet. It’s so ridiculous to see the belief progression of some people who
1. Were raised religious
2. Became nonbelievers during adolescence while watching friends and pop atheists make fun of religion
3. Went back to claiming to believe in God because of aesthetics or right-wing political views, even though deep down they are still cynics.
These people are only lying to themselves

>> No.14189412

>>14188520
9iq

>> No.14189445

>>14189389
I went through these three stages and then after 3. i had a meditative experience that I would later find to be more or less identical to those described in the Enneads and the Corpus Hermeticum, among other texts. I still occasionally wonder if the experience was purely psychological, but if our current notions of social construction are valid then I really shouldn't be undergoing identical quite complex internal experiences to people who lived in antiquity. It seems that the one human experience that completely transcends cultural and historical boundaries is a specific type of inner religious experience.

>> No.14189471

>>14189316
>>14189259
I always wondered if this "music" ever started out as a joke and some idiot took it seriously like bronies.

>> No.14189474

>>14188480
Well the very human element of religion:
-the huge inconsistency of revelation
-the fact that revelation spread along purely human lines (for instance no similar prophets in China or the Americas)
-The fact that religious texts tend to be really grounded in the time of their authorship showing the kind of understanding of reality you would expect from a divine author.
-The fact that verifying factors are really lacking and can only be confirmed when you die.
-Supernatural revelations and interventions by angles largely disappearing or becoming increasingly vague. You wont get angles addressing world leaders or new prophets performing miracles, or even people regrowing limbs but you will get people who after staring at the sun for hours getting visions.
ect.

>> No.14189497

belief among the educated in 2019 is contrarian larp and language games

i have nothing against christianity, i even think it was a positive influence on humanity but its time has passed and you guys are massive faggots who let Fedora memes influence their intellectual development

>> No.14189512

>>14188480
Atheists are materialists and slaves of Yaldabaoth just like Christards.
Atheism is worse than Christianity because they dont even know they are slaves

>> No.14189560

>>14189474
revelation is actually stunningly consistent across cultures when you discount the kind of "revelations" that are just people acting on cultural ideas of revelation (i.e. 'the mother mary visited me', 'i saw angels')

here is a significant text on the subject if you are interested: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.190986/page/n5

>> No.14189584

>>14189560
The kind of consistency I had in mind with that comment would be things akin to Gabriel visiting the people in China and North America and dictating the Koran to them. Or for instance Aboriginal Australians knowing Jesus Christ and the Apostles by name and story.

I mean there are absolutely consistent themes and ideas dont get me wrong, would I be correct in assuming that your text deals more with this kind of idea than what I wrote above?

>> No.14189597

>>14189584
the massive amounts of evidence for specific abrahamic religions not being true is not actually reasonable grounds for atheism. nobody who is serious about theism believes that Gabriel is anything more than a cultural character.

>> No.14189619

>>14189597
I still think there is some importance in dealing with an issue that is at the core of the religions which compose a majority of humanity.

>nobody who is serious about theism believes that Gabriel is anything more than a cultural character.

I guess it depends what you mean by serious about theism here. For instance I do think the orthodox views in say Apostolic Christians and Sunni Islam definitely do believe and place importance on Gabriel being a literal and specific angle rather than say a cultural character.

For perennialist and traditionalist thinkers though I would agree with your point.

>> No.14189623

>>14188590
Based.

>> No.14189636

>>14188480
>Still believing in Jewish myths in the 21st Century.
Top lel.

>> No.14189664

>>14189345
Intellectual elites are resentment filled parasites. Nietszhes last men par excellence. I don’t trust a word those idiots say on God. Any actually intelligent philosopher or scientist is usually religious. Heisenberg or Van Fraassen come to mind for me

>> No.14189678

>>14189636
What do you believe in Anon?

>> No.14189992
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14189992

>>14189345
>*blocks your path*

>> No.14190010
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14190010

>>14188480
they always ask "the existence of x"
not "existence"

>> No.14190012

The only non brainlet form of God is believing in some kind of metaphysical entity that may have attributes that depend on your philosophy and belief like creating the universe, being the first cause or whatever the fuck. I'm not saying you have to believe in this, but it's the only belief that can make sense.

Any actual human religion that depicts God as some entity that somehow cares about humanity and made heavens and hells for them and whatever other shit is just fairytales for brainlets and coping mechanisms.

>> No.14190015

>>14189445
What exactly are you ranting about?

>> No.14190090

>>14188552
Humans are powerless against their own irrationality.

>> No.14190102
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14190102

>>14188480
Atheists have daddy issues, prove me wrong.

>> No.14190170

>>14188480
Are these four tile "maps" the most retarded boxes ever?

>> No.14190193

>>14188480
No specific organ in the body indicating we are capable of objectivity.
No specific organ in the body indicating we possess a soul.
No valid metaphysical premise left for believing in souls, things-in-themselves.
No valid psychological evaluation left for believing in old religions.
Very soon, no valid scientific theory left for believing in a universe that has a creator, or even had a beginning at any point in time.

The further along we go, the less and less reasons we see for believing in God.

>> No.14190206

>>14190193
>No specific organ in the body indicating we possess a soul.
???

>metaphysical premise
Consciousness?

>psychological evaluation
???

>no valid scientific theory left for believing in a universe that has a creator, or even had a beginning at any point in time.
Big bang?
Also this is irrelevant.

>> No.14190207

>>14190193
>Very soon, no valid scientific theory left for believing in a universe that has a creator, or even had a beginning at any point in time.
>no valid scientific theory
>even had a beginning at any point in time.
what is the second law of thermodynamics?

>> No.14190214

>>14189331
The none existence of a being higher than humanity is practically zero and there is no evidence for such an absence.

Science has basically no answer (and no possible answer) for most relevant questions and so the best explanation you can get from them is "pure chance", which is in some ways better, but in most ways worse than "God did it".

>> No.14190220

>>14190207
Not a law which requires there to be a beginning to the universe.

>> No.14190236

>>14188480
I think evidence leans in favour of atheism and I can probably debunk my own religion better than most atheists. However, I still remain faithful.

>> No.14190246

>>14188520
there's a massive difference between believing in one God and believing in zero Gods

>> No.14190256

>>14190015
I am explaining the basis for religion for you. I understand that you might be confused because it isn't delivered in a bitesize dawkinsian witticism but if you read the post again carefully and think about it you might come away with something.

>> No.14190263

>>14188480
Not being a retard would suffice.
>>14188526
Try talking to someone outside your church.

>> No.14190286

>>14188697
>laws of science
You really can't take away anything from what that Anon said? Now I know you're the one who asked "what is god" in an attemptf to stupify. I'd tell you to read more, but I don't think it would help even if you did listen.

>> No.14190344

>>14188520
Category error: there is a difference between the identity of god and his existence

>> No.14190368

>>14190344
Compile time error

>> No.14190388

>>14189389
This.
You got the average 4channer christian LARPer down to a T.

>> No.14190389

>>14189636
>Still believing in Jewish myths in the 21st Century.
The people who say things like this and "kike on a stick" always seem to be interested in larping as pagans instead. When pressed they tend to have no understanding of old European pagan beliefs beyond some vague familiarity with the poetic eddas and the notion that it is the true beliefs of the ancestors (ignoring the last ~700) years of their forefathers) and something about it being better than "kiked bullshit".

>> No.14190412

>>14188608
This world is full of opportunities to transcend suffering.

>> No.14190413
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14190413

>>14188508
>Atheism is brain damage
True.

>> No.14190433

>>14188720
This can be determined by examining what a mind is at its core but it would take a very deep understanding of chemistry and physics.

>> No.14190436

I do not know if God exists, therefore it makes more sense to me to not believe in him. But this is only because I was asked for an educated reason, the real reason is that I’m just not that interested in following a religion.

>> No.14190442

>>14189389
I didn’t go through this cycle at all, you could not be more wrong.
>raised by atheists
>friends totally ambivalent to religion
>go to uni
>get my degree in science
>start actually speaking with scientists
>realise they are profoundly ignorant about anything outside of their field of expertise and are all extremely sensitive to their own emotional biases (just talk about aliens with your average stem faggot and watch the sheer delusion)
>start reading more philosophy of science (axiomathes is a great journal for this)
>begin to realise even the highly lauded and respected scientists make categorically false statements and huge leaps of logic
>start confronting fundamental questions of reality
>realise that an all encompassing theory of reality will by definition by impossible to falsify so all science is predicated on a pipe dream and that you must choose between making an educated guess or abstain from guessing entirely and live with a fragmented knowledge base
>thirst for knowledge is so great I choose to make the guess
>start reading religious text looking for the best fit to my observations of reality that cannot be falsified
Again stop pigeon holing everyone you meet who runs contrary to some internalised narrative you have about what it means to be well educated.

>> No.14190457

>>14188480
We should make the least amount of assumptions before we make assertions. Assuming we know nothing takes god out of the starting point. If you want to introduce god into the foundation of understanding, you have to make a compelling argument as to why. It’s not built into the premise, so it needs justification, and Christians don’t have that.

>> No.14190459
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14190459

Daily reminder it has been empirically proven religiosity stifles scientific innovation.

https://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Religion%20December%201g_snd.pdf
http://www.nber.org/papers/w21052.pdf

Daily reminder the overwhelming majority of leading scientists are atheists

https://www.nature.com/articles/28478
https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1936-6434-6-33

Daily reminder most philosophers are atheists

https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl

Daily reminder religious people are less intelligent according to dozens of studies.

http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/The_Relation_Between_Intelligence_and_Religiosity__A_Meta-Analysis_and_Some_Proposed_Explanations.pdf

Daily reminder religious people are less educated

https://www.economist.com/news/international/21623712-how-education-makes-people-less-religiousand-less-superstitious-too-falling-away

Religious people are literally a lesser breed of human

>> No.14190463
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14190463

>>14188566
>claims to live in a more enlighten society with more understanding of the world
>Doesn't have any practical knowledge on how to operate in the world
>Doesn't engage in his culture, or the common knowledge of his people
>Illiterate in history, thinks himself blessed for being able to know what a complex number is
>Thinks knowing the sun is at the center of the solar system has any effect on his life
>Thinks being educated to be a wageslave makes him lucky to be born in our age
Congratulations you played yourself

>> No.14190568

>>14188480
The problem with atheists in the west is whenever they think of religion, they think of radically literal exclusively exoteric Christianity, and anyone above 90iq knows that is bullshit

>> No.14190650

I am completely sure there are no gods or a God. This is because no claim whatsoever needs regard at all until that it is false or true upon a condition is established at which point anticipation of the contition's resolvation would present as doubt. There is no such coindition ergo no doubt.

>> No.14190727

>>14188566
>>14188590
>theist households lead to atheists
>atheist households lead to theists
It's the same problem afflicting all of modern society, you're just finding a lack of meaning in what you've been offered and find it easier to convince yourselves that the alternative is obvious better than what you've already tried

>> No.14190734

>>14190459
Reminder that most philosophers are not atheists. You absolute midwit.

>> No.14190753

I just lack a religious propensity.

I don't discount the notion of a god/God existing, but talking about it objectively is nonsensical.

>> No.14190767

>>14190459
>modern day philosophers are athiest
>modern day philosophers are also shit

wow

>> No.14190776

This thread really demonstrates how /lit/ is a board littered with just a bunch of pseuds.

>> No.14190780

>>14190727
>your reasoning and thoughts are a priori false because my framework of reasoning precludes your ability to reason on the basis of my biases towards large groups of individuals that I acquired through data obtained from likeminded people
Epic. Simply epic.

>> No.14190783

>>14190780
Exactly, you get it

>> No.14190784

>>14190776
No you.

>> No.14190845

>>14190368
>compile time error
names and appearance are human endeavours. archetypes take different forms

>> No.14190859

>>14190734
Based retard in denial

>> No.14190888

>>14188590
>Why are you a Christian, not an atheist?
>Gives personal anecdote about having read the bible.

Woah, colour me fucking shocked. Such concrete evidence. Tedious.

>> No.14190893

>>14188590
>>14188661
>>14188696
see, I'm not too displeased with your God, but you can't pretend that's the God of the masses. you know, the one on which people are trying to base legislation.

>> No.14190896

>>14190459
The fact that the residuals have a correlation means that it's a non-linear relationship, stop bullshitting anon.

>> No.14190945

>>14190568
White liberal atheists manage the trick of loving Martin Luther King and getting all weepy over black gospel music while simultaneously viewing religious people as dunces who have 'imaginary friends'. It's why they lost to Trump,they're low IQ fucking idiots.

>> No.14190968

>>14190767
many historical philosophers were atheist or at least sceptical, as one should be. philosophy as a rule should be done atheistically, as it's too easy to handwave real problems away with
>muh god
also there's no way you can in good faith call all contemporary philosophers shit and not provide a single citation, if you have actually read any. you're clearly parroting someone else's opinions for good boy points. stop trying to fit in.

>> No.14190969

>>14190945
Might have something to do with the fact that 99.9% religious people think they're superior for believing in an imaginary figure in the sky. Pure arrogance.

>> No.14190974

>>14190945
you're clearly talking about a stereotype and not any one actual person. that's not to say that stereotypes aren't real, just that they're an amalgamation of real people's actual traits and as such aren't necessarily consistent.

>> No.14190993

>>14190969
Exhibit A. The ignorant low IQ liberal atheist.

>> No.14191014

>>14190974
friendo just imagine if liberals routinely talked about black people the way they routinely talk about religious people

>> No.14191024

>>14190993
Proving my point.

>> No.14191033

>>14190993
Also, I'm centre right fuckwit. I'm centre right and I think the idea of believing in a god is pretty fucking stupid.

>> No.14191037

>>14190463
When people refer to religion, they don't refer to the religion of their people; they refer to the religion of some desert people

>> No.14191057

>>14190012
Those descriptions are just there so that feeble minds can comprehend it. Will a 'guy with a beard' shoot you with a lightning bolt if you don't do your homework? No, but there will be consequences. Will god get angry and send a flood to destroy us if we have too much buttsex? Maybe not literally, but if we lose sight of what's important, and stop maintaining the systems we depend on to survive, then a disaster we are not prepared for could happen. That has the potential to be so bad it could seem like a biblical flood sent by god. Everything follows a logic, and whether or not that logic is enforced through a 'guy with a beard' or just the nature of existence itself, it doesn't make much of a difference.

>> No.14191069

I was an atheist at age 16. Now I'm 20 and I don't know what to believe in anymore.

Look, the way I see it- every culture has worshiped some form of deity. There were religions practiced before Christianity that lasted thousands of years. Now those tribes/cultures are dust and their religions have been abandoned. Christianity is merely the dominant religion of our time. How does one conclude with unwavering certainty that Christianity is the correct brand of deity worship? It sounds cliche, and it's an r/atheism argument, but really- why is Christianity finally the correct one out of thousands of others?

However I've also come to understand that "Science and Rationality" isn't the end all be all. While Religion isn't great for deriving objective facts about external realities, Science does not provide you with a framework for living in the world. For lack of a better word, Science does not impart upon an individual "wisdom" that is necessary to survive- to conquer his inner demons and survive the failings and foibles which could lead a man to ruin and nihilism. These past two years, I've come to resonate greatly with few of teachings Catholicism taught me as a young child. I realize that the old cocks up on the altars did have some points about human life and how it is to be practiced.

Religion and science both have worthwhile things to say. But I turn to one for some things and the other one for other things.

>> No.14191070

>>14190442
Excellent post. Atheists are brain damaged

>> No.14191086

>>14188520
You forgot to enable your trip, you dumb tranny.

>> No.14191089

>>14191069
>Thinking that religion is the source of morality
How pleb can you be? Do you really think that what some old pedophile at the altar or some bronze age culture barbarians came up with all the answers to how to live a good life? IT'S FUCKING EVOLUTION. BEING GOOD GETS YOU REWARDS. Altruism. It has nothing to do with religion.

>> No.14191103

Is there any religion that actually tries to have a better understanding of the metaphysical/spiritual/divine instead of trying to bolster their long-held ideas and pretend that it got things right from the very beginning, on the first try, and that every other religion is wrong about everything?

>> No.14191105

At 20 you have more wisdom than an entire cohort of atheist liberal boomers.

>> No.14191108

>>14191069
Christianity is simply the religion that is best at reproducing itself (there is a reason that the go-to Atheist has a background in genetics). Christianity has historically been able to create strong, stable, theistic societies which is why it is the dominant religion. It has nothing to do with whether Christianity is truer than other religions. The number of Christians who have a legitimate understanding of a variety of non-Christian religions and still choose to be Christian is close to zero.

The more fundamental question here is whether there are aspects of religion that are not culturally or historically dependent. If so, why?

>> No.14191109

>>14191105
Speak English.

>> No.14191112

>>14191089
Read a book

>> No.14191117

>>14190012
>>14191057
in other words, deism kinda makes sense, but theism is for brainlets.

>> No.14191119

>>14191089
Are you retarded? What is 'being good'? Our concept of what is good is largely based in the teachings of Christ.

>> No.14191122

>>14191112
Rofl. 20 year old Christian kid telling me to read a book. Let me guess, it's the good book, right?

>> No.14191126

>>14191119
>Our concept of what is good is largely based in the teachings of Christ.
Seek mental help.

>> No.14191134

>>14191089
If people born outside of human society don't behave according to human morals (e.g. wolf children) then how can you claim morals are a result of human evolution?

>> No.14191135

>>14191119
>people didn't know what being good was until Christ told them

>> No.14191136

>>14191122
No, read some good fiction novels or something.

>> No.14191138

>>14191134
There can be no intermediate stages in morals it's quit retarded to think you can evolve something like that.

>> No.14191149

>>14191134
...Fuck me. Because humans are social animals? I'm talking about the NORMAL way humans evolved--that is the way in which our ancestors survived and lived for thousands of years. Together. In groups. You scratch my back, etc etc. Of fucking course some feral child isn't going to know about all that because they live in isolation. What you said is in no way an argument for morals not coming from evolution. You're pointing at the 1%, oddball case and saying "well that refutes the general principle". Midwit.

>> No.14191157

>>14191149
Give me one good reason that you shouldn't commit suicide right now.

>> No.14191158

>>14191157
Top quality argument.

>> No.14191163

>>14191135
Different groups of people have different ideas of what 'being good' is. Even you and your parents probably disagree in some cases. Christianity advocates for 'being good' by following the teachings of Christ as written in the Bible. People who didn't have access to these teachings had different ideas of what 'being good' meant based on their cultural surroundings and informed by their culture's history. There is probably some overlap in many cases, but the Christian morality is a distinct thing that we can point to. It is the single largest source of contemporary western morality due to the fact that the Church was the dominant institution in the West for hundreds of years.

>> No.14191166

>>14191158
Give me one good reason that you shouldn't commit suicide right now.

>> No.14191169

>>14191149
What do you mean by evolution? If children who are not genetically divergent from normal humans (which feral children aren't) don't adhere to human morals then it means that morals aren't something that comes from biological evolution, they come from society and culture. Society and culture would include Christianity.

>> No.14191181

Almost every point/counterpoint made in this thread has nearly proven to me that this board is now irrevocably ass and full of midwits

>> No.14191185

>>14191149
You understand the importance of groups to our species and yet you still don't understand religion? Religion is on of if not the most important tool we have for group cohesion.

>> No.14191193

>>14191169
Society is part of evolution, e.g. reciprocal altruism. I can guarantee you that people were being nice to each other before Christianity. It's that simple. It's sad that you think before magical Jesuuu came along everyone was stabbing each other in the face for no reason.You must have a pretty bleak view of existence.

>> No.14191197

>>14188480
cope

>> No.14191211

>>14191181
Amen. That's why I go to warosu and just browse old threads. I limit my searches to December 31st 2015.

>> No.14191215

>>14191181
There's no point to cast pearls before swine. The first 10 or so posts set the tone for the thread and firmly established that /lit/ contrarian christlarpers are more interested in mental masturbation than examining their views in good faith. Productive conversation is becoming more and more rare on the internet.

>> No.14191226

>>14191215
>Productive conversation is becoming more and more rare on the internet.
It's declined here with your every contribution.

>> No.14191228

>>14191215
Especially when the onus is on the Krispies to do all the explaining.

>> No.14191236

>>14191193
>You must have a pretty bleak view of existence.
And you don't? Keep in mind you are nothing more than a highly-evolved ape whose life is utterly meaningless and without value.

>> No.14191250

>>14191236
I make my own meaning. It's sad that you need to follow the teachings of some ancient book to do so. Sorry, anon. Hope you grow out of your security blanket.

>> No.14191263

>>14191226
You reap what you sow, faggot.

>> No.14191268

>>14191250
*tips fedora*

>> No.14191270

>>14191250
Sad that you think your delusions give your life value apart from God.

>> No.14191275

>>14188566
>understood less about the world than the average high school student today?
So a high school student knows we have 8 planents and a rain cycle.
This refutes God abd allegorical mythology how?

>> No.14191279

>>14191250
You literally dont if you believe in a deterministic universe though

>> No.14191283

>>14191270
I didn't say they give my life value. I only said I only make meaning.

>> No.14191299

>>14191193
Yet again you miss the point. If you keep responding with these bizarre constructions of my position then I'm not going to keep talking to you about this.

>I can guarantee you that people were being nice to each other before Christianity.
The point is that 'being nice to each other' is not an eternal concept with no relationship to culture. We both probably agree that it is not nice to cut off your daughter's infant clitoris, yet in some cultures it is practiced. There are societies in the world right now that practice cannibalism and rape, even though we don't think doing that is nice.

Christianity promoted a specific kind of reciprocal altruism that was expressed in specific ways as delineated in the Bible. It is by far the most significant set of moral codes in terms of its influence on contemporary western morality.

>> No.14191300

Did Kant unintentionally destroy theism?

>> No.14191302

>>14191275
>allegorical mythology
Cringe. Someone's been reading too books by that self-help canadian guy who cries a lot. You're not smart.

>> No.14191306

>>14191250
No you don't make your own meaning you underage cretin. You construct your own meaning from pre-existing cultural elements that are largely inherited from Christianity.

>> No.14191307

>>14191299
I agree with everything you said here, but I don't think it's the sole and most important factor. Will have to agree to disagree.

>> No.14191309

>>14190969
Christianity teaches humility and service to all
>The master will serve all
>He who wants to be first will surely be last
>>14191033
>center right
Thats just current year's liberalism

>> No.14191315

>>14191283
And your subjective "meaning" has no value. The clay doesn't shape itself into whatever it wants to be. The potter does.

>> No.14191318

>>14191306
Okay, genuinely interested now. Please tell me which of my constructed meanings are derived from Christianity. Seriously. I'm not piss-taking here. I want to know.

>> No.14191320

>>14191302
Jokes on you, I dont read at all

>> No.14191329

>>14191315
>The clay doesn't shape itself into whatever it wants to be. The potter does.
Holy fucking shit, boy. I've never cringed so hard. I'm not kidding, this was golden. I almost can't believe you wrote that. How utterly devastatingly sad.

>> No.14191333

>>14191329
cope

>> No.14191363

>>14191333
Imagine having such low self esteem that you think you're the "clay" and god is the "potter". Fuck me. It's so masochistic and degenerate and pitiful.

>> No.14191366

>>14191363
>>14191329
I doubt you can formulate an actual argument from repeating 'wow. just wow. i cant even'

>> No.14191381

>>14191318
Do you place any value upon your sexual partners being virgins? That is highly Christian.
Do you resist impulses to hit people when they wrong you? That is highly Christian.
Do you ever give things to other people without expecting to receive anything in return? That is highly Christian.
Do you feel more satisfied with yourself when you do work than when you are idle? That is highly Christian.
Do you attempt to put up with difficult situations without expressing the difficulty too much to other people? Highly Christian.
Do you tend to express yourself in a humble manner? Do you prefer to make yourself sound worse than you are over making yourself sound better than you are? This is massively Christian.

>> No.14191387

>>14191363
Yes, anon, you are absolutely nothing compared to the transcendent, self-subsistent, all-good, ineffable creator of the entire universe. Sorry to bruise your ego.

>> No.14191393

>>14191381
>being a Christian is literally just being a beta anime MC

>> No.14191400
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14191400

>>14191157
my dopamine levels are too elevated and serotonin levels are too depressed for me to commit suicide.

>> No.14191404

>>14191250
>I make my own meaning
if you are typing this from a western democracy you do know that you are sitting in a house with government and larger culture all literally constructed from Judeo-Christian principles, right?

>> No.14191408

>>14191393
unironically this, his christian values are highly japanese.

>> No.14191409

>>14191387
I didn't think in the first place since the very idea is ludicrous beyond .... anything. All-good? Lololol. Okay. So he sanctioned the holocaust and children dying from brain-eating parasites and car accidents and ... every wrong thing in the world?

>> No.14191411

>>14191404
Western governments are based off of Greco-Roman traditions, stop stealing things for your Jewish faith.

>> No.14191413

>>14191400
Haha yes the evo lution

>> No.14191423

>>14191409
>the clay lecturing the potter about what he's using it for

>> No.14191441

>>14188480
i'm not reading 200 posts so i don't know if someone already wrote it or not, but there is one good reason for being an atheist:

god doesn't exist

>> No.14191464

>>14191250
>he took the individualism pill so hard he tried to discredit all of cultural tradition

this is the fatal flaw of New Atheism and contemperary politics writ large: they think that by being atheist they are irreligious, and that's just not true. I personally think there is no such thing as a truly irreligious person: humanity's thirst for the transcendental and hierophany just takes us to places outside of religious institution. This is why anon is retarded, because he's equating the lack of belief in god with the lack of belief, period. No such thing, science and self-reliance are your god now

>> No.14191481

>>14188480
Actually being an agnostic means that you can't know God, while a gnostic means that you can.

Our religion of today, science, is a gnostic religion.

>> No.14191491

Aren't christian's supposed to be nice ? Why are they so hateful ?

>> No.14191506

>>14191408
those are literally the seven virtues

>> No.14191539

>>14191506
Just pointing out that they show up all over the place. I wouldn't call them strictly Christian. It's quite a sneaky trick, this "cultural Christianity" meme.

>> No.14191556

>>14191387
Why is this fucking retard assuming his deity is real? Theism is dead in the intellectual world.

>> No.14191563

>>14191491
cuz all the kids are joining the dark side

>> No.14191572

>>14188480
At the end of the day, there are no sound reasons or evidence to believe in theism, while there are sound reasons and evidence to believe theism is false, such as the evidential argument from evil, and the overwhelming evidence in support of naturalism/physicalism.

>> No.14191580

>>14188520
Lol lame

>> No.14191583

>>14188573
God is not """benevolent"""
Next.

>> No.14191591

>>14191583
The God diacussed in western philosophy is.
If you want to redefine "God" as something else, nobody cares.

>> No.14191595

>>14189345
>satisfied with decades old and debunked statistics

Oh you

>> No.14191598

>>14188773
Annoyed. Anybody who isn't a baritone should have their vocal chords removed.

>> No.14191600

>>14191595
Debunked? Where and when?

>> No.14191602

>>14191595
if you're satisfied with your own post, your standards are too low to be considered by anyone desu

>> No.14191606
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14191606

>>14190102
>freudianisms

>> No.14191625

>>14190767
>modern day philosophers are also shit
Lmao maybe if your sample size is pop philosophy garbage like lobsterman and "LEBANESE ARE PHOENICIANS" dude.

>> No.14191637

>>14191539
Shinto ethics are not very similar to Christian ethics at all. Modern Japan is highly westernized.

>> No.14191667

>>14190442
That’s been similar to my experience with it. People want to learn so they master an area of knowledge, then their real character to the unknown is revealed once you talk to them outside of that certain knowledge base.

>> No.14191675

>>14190459
Right but not right at all

>> No.14191681

god is a construct invented by people too cowardly to face reality by themselves, it exists entirely to provide comfort to weaklings and justify the actions of people who could know better

>> No.14191698

Prove that a god exists. You can't. I tend not to believe in things without evidence. For example, if you told me that you dug a hole to China, I would need proof to believe you.

>> No.14191700

atheism is a construct invented by people too cowardly to face judgement, it exists entirely to provide comfort to weaklings and justify the actions of people who could do better

>> No.14191711

>>14191700
You just spurted out a bunch of nonsense without explaining why

>> No.14191722

>>14191711
as did you

>> No.14191725

>>14191722
..No?

>> No.14191726

>>14191381
>thats highly christian
thats also highly muslim, gay, american, kind or whatever the fuck you want
just because christianity has influenced our western values does not mean these values rely on christianity in any way
chritianity is just a pretty "kind" religion compared to others, that doesnt mean shit

>> No.14191756

>>14191700
atheism is not a construct, its the rejection of one. it does not provide comfort nor justify any actions. what the fuck are you saying?

>> No.14191773

>>14191700
>ah... ah... judgement... yes, I crave judgement give it to me please!
Why are the Jewish religions so obsessed with attention whoring and seeking validation?

>> No.14191774

>>14190102
jokes on you, my father makes love to me once a week.

>> No.14191783

>>14188480
I've never seen significant reason to believe there is a sentient god watching over us, but I've seen science explain a lot of phenomenon

>> No.14191785

>>14188480
Atheism means that you're too busy in your life to have time to worship an imaginary god created by a schizo 2000 years ago.

>> No.14191791

>>14191381
Are you a human? Being human is highly Christian

Checkmate atheists

>> No.14191805

>>14191791
Great response you meme spouting idiot. Do you actually know anything about any non-Christian cultures? Read some Íslendingasögur and see if you can spot the differences.

>> No.14191822

>>14188480
The question,
>Does God exist?
is a fucking weird one because it's just sort of assumed that we all agree on what we mean by God.
Sure, you can define God such that its existence is a tautology. The problem is all the other superfluous shit that gets tacked onto that definition without meaningful justification.
Does God exist? Sure, depending on how you want to define God. Is there some higher entity that particularly cares about my daily actions? Well I've yet to see a convincing argument for that being the case.

>> No.14191830
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14191830

>>14190459

>China
>Most innovative
>1990-2000

Whatever you're smoking, give me some.

>> No.14191850

pls respond anons
>>14191103

>> No.14191857

>>14191411
Geez yeah it's right there on the money, In Greco-Romanness We Trust.

>> No.14191884

>>14191850
Buddhism

>> No.14191885

>>14191857
Courts, parliament, military tradition, architecture, musical scales and basically all republican institutions come from Greco-Roman traditions. Seethe cope and dilate, christranny.

>> No.14191914

>>14191850
You're talking about the absoluteness of religious institutionalism which is how atheists tend to view it, they sneer at this great big monolothic thing. In regards to Christianity, it's not what it once was, there are millions of Christians who do not attend church regularly but nevertheless retain the essences of Jesus' teachings and hold these things dear. The atheistic left routinely trashes these people then wonder why they lose elections.

>> No.14191936
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14191936

>>14188480
continuum of willful rejection of God to surrender to him WOW

>> No.14191947

>>14191830
Learn to read, brainlet

>> No.14191986

>>14191885
so start a local chapter of the Greco-Roman society who fucking cares

>> No.14192030

>>14188520
I unironically believe literally every god exists

>> No.14192062

>>14190442
Based

>> No.14192066

>>14190463
Very based post

>> No.14192082

>>14188668
What do you gain from being an atheist?

>> No.14192105

>>14191135
Unironically this

>> No.14192106

>>14189474
You can talk to angels yourself

>> No.14192117

>>14192030
I can do you one better:
I unironically believe that literally every expressible or conceivable thing exists

>> No.14192134

>>14192117
Why?

>> No.14192156
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14192156

>>14188520

>> No.14192160

>>14192105
Do you think Jesus had the ultimate answer on what it means to be good?

>> No.14192172

>>14188608
perhaps you should consider that the reality of God is not what you thought it was, but something else entirely.

>> No.14192177

>>14188631
>the jews that wrote the creation myth don't even believe in it.

so why should I?

>> No.14192338

>>14191884
I do like buddhism. Has it change since its conception though? Do you know of any book that could give me a better understanding of buddhism in its current form?

>>14191914
Don't most christians (and the christian church) think their concept of god is the right one and look down on other world religions though? That doesn't seem to be a religion that tries to have a better understanding of metaphysical/spiritual/divine realm.

I'm not an atheist btw

>> No.14192407

>>14192338
The early Christian church was shaped by Paul who was a giant authoritarian asshole. If you read the gospels you won't find Jesus looking down on anybody.

>> No.14192415

>>14188572
You have no idea. You cannot fathom my flashbacks from hospitals. Stop using mental illness as a meme. Some people have that shit. It's a fucking nightmare.

>> No.14192491

>>14188697
>parables
>fairy tales
I see someone is a raging rebel way into his thirties lmao.

>> No.14192552

I don't want to work backwards from faith with only hope to work with, start seeing god in basic-bitch senses and end up as a non-physicalist moron.

>> No.14192603

>>14191572
Very low iq post

>> No.14192609
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14192609

>>14188480
If you believe in the Singularity, you have to accept that God exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxYbA1pt8LA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIno-PhSQlM

>> No.14192620

>>14191698
Define evidence

>> No.14192634

>>14191411
>Greco-Roman tradition
The entirety of Western society is based on Hobbes who is not Greco-Roman at all

>> No.14192712

>>14190442
>(just talk about aliens with your average stem faggot and watch the sheer delusion)
what does this mean?

>> No.14192817

>>14192609
Why the fuck would I believe in delusional technophile eschatology?

>> No.14192822

>>14192620
Anything that is rationally or empirically observed.

>> No.14192826

>>14192822
So personal experience constitutes evidence. Maybe people personally experience God. Therefore there is huge amounts of inductive evidence for God

>> No.14192837

>>14188480
I learned that I am god so I no longer belive I am an athiest

>> No.14192841

>>14192826
Anecdotal accounts of experience of a higher being is fallible. Empirically *Prove* that this is a real phenomenon and you might have a point. Besides, which god did they experience? Most cult members feel as if they've experienced something special.

>> No.14192861

>>14188520
We aren't atheistic about other gods, we just don't worship them.

>> No.14192868

>>14192841
Empiricism is itself highly fallible. The reason I said that there is an inductive case for God through experience is because it is a common experience. Since more people claim to experience God than not, it would be less anecdotal than atheism.
I could ask you to prove that you are experiencing a phenomenal blue when you see the sky, but the essence of blue is axiomatic and is only come to by experiental means. In this case I would compare an inability to experience God to a blind persons inability to experience blue and I would have an empirical case for God's existence.
Is it a very good case? Its only okay, wouldnt say its a terrible argument but it certainly isnt winning any nobel prizes. But in any case, you asked for evidence, and I provided evidence. Therefore there is evidence for God's existence. Whether your satisfied with the evidence is your prerogative.

>> No.14192924

>>14192868
>Empiricism is itself highly fallible
Not really. Our understanding of the universe comes from it. All of science, etc. God has not been scientifically observed.

>> No.14192925

>>14192826
Evidence must always be weighted against background evidence. The totality of our previous evidence indicates that the cognitive mechanisms which produce religious experiences are extremely unreliable. Therefore, religious experiences do little, if anything, to make the hypothesis of theism more likely.

>> No.14192939

>>14192837
this tbqh

>> No.14192949

>>14192924
Wew lad.
>>14192925
>The totality of our previous evidence indicates that the cognitive mechanisms which produce religious experiences are extremely unreliable.
This is false and also self refuting.
I have not seen anything to suggest that religious cognition is unreliable.
Further, If cognitive mechanisms for theism are unreliable then by what standard do you hold your other cognitive mechanisms to be reliable?

>> No.14192948

>gnostic atheist
>claims to know
no, clings to faith.

faith is not knowledge. it is faith.

>> No.14192957

fucks sake is this stupid thread still going
can't you stupid godbothering halfwits just piss off to /b/ or something

>> No.14192958

>>14191625
No you look at the state of modern academic philosophy, Tim maudlin, nussbaum, Ted Sider, Dan dennett, Churchlands etc etc their ethics is nothing beyond “liberal values are objectively true because we say so, because we’ve proven god can’t be a premise to marking so just everyone please be nice.” And their metaphysics are just atrocious. You read macintyre, Taylor, Kearney, Girard, Marion (all Catholic) and they blow these autistic puzzle solver out of the fucking water it’s not even close.

>> No.14192966

>>14192949
>This is false and also self refuting.
How is it self refuting? Elaborate

>> No.14192977

>>14192957
/b/ would imply God is random, follow along dumbass

>> No.14192992

>>14192966
Sorry, i was unclear. You're denying one component of cognition apparently arbitrarily. If our cognition is so flawed that it is more commonly wrong than correct on the theism experience, how do you justify the veracity of any cognition at all?

>> No.14193003

>>14188480
Can you give me a basic definition of what it means to be theist?

>> No.14193011

>>14193003
To be the opposite of an atheist

>> No.14193022

>>14192949
>I have not seen anything to suggest that religious cognition is unreliable.
Religious disagreement over the existence of our species necessarily entails at least most (if not all) of religious beliefs held by humans are false, as they are mostly inconsistent with each other. in addition to that, there’s no standard to judge when religious cognition is supposedly working correctly, nor any way to attribute epistemic disparity to explain differences in religious experiences. Therefore, religious cognition, by itself, has either a very low or a nonexistent chance of producing justified true beliefs.

>> No.14193041

>>14192992
>how do you justify the veracity of any cognition at all?
Other form of cognition, such as logic and mathematics, don’t really present the same defeaters as religious experience.

>> No.14193050

>>14193022
>justified true beliefs
First of all, positivsm is self refuting
>Religious disagreement over the existence of our species necessarily entails at least most (if not all) of religious beliefs held by humans are false, as they are mostly inconsistent with each other.
You said yourself this only indicates that most are false. Most being false does not mean all are false. Disagreement over the particulars of the experience does not mean all experience is false.
>there’s no standard to judge when religious cognition is supposedly working correctly
The standard is the feelin itself. What standard to judge is there to know that you are seeing blue correctly?
>>14193041
Neither logic nor math refutes theism. Nor does logic nor math refute the authenticity of "feeling" God

>> No.14193096

>>14193050
>First of all, positivsm is self refuting
That had nothing to do with positivism, that was the standard defintion of knowledge in the field of epistemology. What are you on about?

>Most being false does not mean all are false.
No, but it means these cognitive mechanisms are incredibly unreliable, which puts the strength of your evidence into question.

>The standard is the feelin itself.
That is as far from a standard as you can get. It's useless, as there's no way to establish epistemic superiority between different individuals or cultures regarding the reliability of their religious intuition.

>> No.14193109

>>14193050
>Neither logic nor math refutes theism. Nor does logic nor math refute the authenticity of "feeling" God

I don't think you understood my point at all.

>> No.14193227

>>14193109
not him, but i don't think you do either.

>> No.14193416

>>14192977
>God is random
well that would explain a lot
like why some species have to eat their own shit to get all the nutrients out of their food
or why i have teeth that can bite through some animals' bones but i broke one on a piece of fucking unpopped popcorn

>> No.14193425

>>14189341
alexa what is the golden calf

>> No.14193441
File: 199 KB, 700x1058, 9781784787301-b740daad0e6521bba98ed0476b9cef02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14193441

>>14188480
Here you go.
(On libgen &c btw)

>> No.14193448

>>14193425
i once said: alexa tell me a random number
and it said : the number of the beast is a random number
fucking creeped me out