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14080136 No.14080136[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why was it neccassary for gods son to die for our sins?

How exactly did his death heal humanity of sin?

I've never been able to understand this part of Christianity and it seems to be the most important part of it.

>> No.14080162

Why was it necessary for anon to post a theological question with so much discussion already online, so easily found?

How exactly did he think this post was a good one to post on a literature board?

I've never been able to understand these sort of theological-question posters and it seems like we are getting more and more of them.

>> No.14080166

>>14080162
Why are you such a faggot?

>> No.14080178

Universal sin and vicarious atonement

>> No.14080187

>>14080166
Why was it necessary for you to be so mean?

How exactly did you think that such a sentence would change the fact that you posted a pointless thread?

I've never been able to understand these sort of people.

>> No.14080199

Because God said so.

By magic.

>> No.14080213

>>14080136
Fulfillment of foreshadowing and completion of thematic argument through motifs.

>> No.14080219

>>14080187
Do you take issue with all the marxists that make threads in here? If not, shut the fuck up.

>> No.14080230

>>14080162
>>14080187

You'll never understand my dick

>> No.14080252

The wages of sin is death, Christ was god incarnated into his creation, he took on human nature, died and came back to life taking all of humanity with him into eternal life. Imagine being made in the image of god, and god being incarnated in the image of man, to transfigure death

>> No.14080258

>>14080219
If Marxism doesn't have to do with literature, yes. If Marxism has to do with literature, then I don't care Stop projecting.

>> No.14080430

>>14080136
Jesus decided to take the consequences of your sins upon himself and paid the price so that you can live. By entering into a covenant with Him and adhering to his teachings, you can be liberated from sin.

>> No.14080442

>>14080166
>faggot?
>>14080219
>shut the fuck up.
>>14080230
>my dick
christians

>> No.14080482

>>14080136
honestly you'll receive different answers from different denominations, but the answer most consistent with the Church Fathers is that since man had been in a fallen state since the ancestral/original sin, Christ's crucifixion and resurrection was necessary to provide a path out of fallenness and to grace.

>> No.14080489

>>14080482
but that doesn't follow logically

>> No.14080559

>>14080136
God is just and merciful, as displayed through carrying out justice on his son for our mercy’s sake. The sacrifice was the reconciliation between those two qualities of God. But I don’t think this is the only valid answer

>> No.14080582

>>14080136
It's mainly a catholic thing since keeping people in constant guilt and shame is the most basic tenet of Catholicism

>> No.14080585

>>14080430
Im not a religious person, but i really love and admire Jesus and his ways of teaching, he seemed like the one true example of a worthy man and his words up to day are unmatched in wiseness.

Having said this, how exactly is he or someone else deciding for me a good thing? what i never wanted that sacrifice? I cant be punished for something i did not want i.e.

>> No.14080593

>>14080585
Without the sacrifice, God’s justice would be carried out on you, and you couldn’t possibly make it to heaven. Your sins would not be wiped clean, and you would not be perfect and righteous enough to enter the kingdom of heaven

>> No.14080598

>>14080582
this is universal to all forms of apostolic Christianity. What are you talking about.

>> No.14080610

>>14080442
They're larpers.

>> No.14080623

If it didn't hurt, how would you learn?

>> No.14080628

>>14080593
Yeah. I get it. Everyone gets it, heaven and stuff.
That's not the point of my question.

Can he validate his judgement over me? Imagine you dont wanna live in such a violent, unfair, rough world, because you just cant stand watching people suffer over meaningless stuff caused through envy, hate, etc etc. You dont wanna be part of it. Where is God's comprehension, aceptance on your thoughts?
Why would he decide when you live and when you die? If you commit suicide then you pay with hell, how is that an expresion of "love"?

You guys validate everything as "theres a greater reason" but never care enough about people actual lifes and choices.

You can say a good enough boy if ded would go to heaven, but his parents/friends could end up in hell. You could totally bet this boy would rather be with at his parents/friends side than watching them suffer for eternity.

And who the fuck decided that?
This boy could have died in hands of unmoral people and because of that his familiar took vengeance, thus ended being sinners.

Do you think this boy would be in peace knowing of above?

>> No.14080638

>>14080628
Design a better world if you can. I’m sure you can do it in such a way that no one here will find any flaws

>> No.14080647

>>14080638
That's just impossible. There will be always darkness in the heart of men.

What's relevant here is that if theres an actual God, benevolent and such as you want to make him look like, he's either inefficient and hypocrite or just useless and a waste of neurons activity.

People should just listen to Jesus's words instead of believing the bullshit wrote in the Bible which is incosistent and incoherent in everything. There is no divine justice. And keeping this thought alive is cancerous for humanity.

>> No.14080650

>>14080628
http://www.ryerson.ca/~kraay/Documents/2010PS.pdf
My personal favorite answer to the question of theodicy

>> No.14080657

>>14080650
>>14080628
Link always to be broken now as I look at it. Different version of the same idea here
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/15/answer-to-job/

>> No.14080663

>>14080647
How do you know what God’s motivations are? Read Romans 9

>> No.14080794

>>14080663
That's your problem. You always subdue to his motivations. What about your motivations, your brother's motivation, are they simply worth nothing? Then why do you even care living the way you want to live? Your fake free will is bubble mindset of manipulation.

It sounds like if someone would be playing a table game and laughing at us here on earth.


>>14080657
Imma give it a read, anon, thank you.

>> No.14080822

>>14080794
He’s given us what we need to know to find peace. I have no complaints

>> No.14080856

>>14080136

Death and damnation is a manifestation of sin, our alienation from God, and they are due to us in virtue of the lives alienated from God which we have led. This alienation from God is sin.

Jesus' death on the Cross, because he is himself God, completes and manifests our alienation from God in an alternative way than death and damnation, which are otherwise the true lot of a human being, once all the finite goods we have are exhausted. When we participate in his sacrifice, the underlying reality of sin finds its complete expression in his unjust death for our sake, which is a horror which all sin and evil and lack only faintly approximate. Because the Cross completes our alienation, no further manifestation of that alienation is due to us. Because the Cross, moreover, is part of a movement which culminates in the Resurrection, not only is sin's due 'accomplished,' but a new way of being becomes possible through it: a resurrected, eternal life.

This whole process does justice to the reality of our alienation from God, while also providing a way forward in which that reality is not an insurmountable limit to the perfection of our love of God. Death is no longer our due, and no longer reflects who we really are, but is something extrinsic to us which can eventually be done away with.

Even if God simply gave us everlasting life and other goods by fiat, without the death of Christ to manifest our alienation from God, the part of us which tends away from God would go unmanifest and unaddressed, therefore a part of us would remain unreconciled to God. This would in turn compromise our union with God, and merely reproduce the conditions of damnation in a different key.

>> No.14080882

>>14080822
What exactly is that, excuse me? If you know so well, why dont you go and spread peace all across the world?

Are you capable of going deep into africa and learning their native language just to tell them that god loves them though they live in such a shit hole and suffer the so called "god punishment illnesess" with no chance of surviving?

You are too selfish my man. You lack sensibility and empathy towards your own species. Keep believing that Love is saying

"you can do whatever you want my son i love you and will always forgive you -BUT IF YOU DONT DO AS I SAY QUIETLY I WILL PUNISH YOU HEHE-"

Love? where? Care to explain the logic behind this? I give you free will but if you dont behave like i expect pay the consecuences. Such a bullshit toxic relationship.

>> No.14080889

>>14080856
From reading your post it sounds like it's the resurrection that is key moreso than the crucifixion

>> No.14080910

>>14080889

Oh yes, the Resurrection is absolutely central. The Crucifixion deals with one element of eternal life- exhausting the factors which impair eternal life. But the resurrection is the eternal life itself, without which the removal of barriers is useless.

>> No.14080916

>>14080910
and the tie between an individual human and this Cross-Resurrection act is whether the individual believes that the events took place, that Jesus lived and was divine and rose? Or is it more complex

>> No.14080977

>>14080916

I think it's deeper than propositional belief. What matters is the ultimate orientation of the will, the metaphysical change to the human being wrought by God in which the human will and mind eventually freely cooperates. Everyone has some connection to the Crucifixion, since Christ intended to die for everyone. By your affirmative response to that intent, you participate in his sacrifice, and thereby benefit from it.

I think (and some Christians disagree) that such an affirmative response and restored relation does not absolutely require successful propositional belief, though I do think it motivates and will eventually generate the correct propositional beliefs.

>> No.14080982

>>14080889
Im not that anon, but that is the case. The crucifixion is the world's rejection of Christ, it's condemnation of its own life and salvation. The resurrection is the ultimate symbol of God's life giving love, which works against all odds and triumphs even over death itself.

>> No.14081001

>>14080489
How so?

>> No.14081004

>>14080856
>Even if God simply gave us everlasting life and other goods by fiat, without the death of Christ to manifest our alienation from God, the part of us which tends away from God would go unmanifest and unaddressed, therefore a part of us would remain unreconciled to God.
This is interesting. It almost sounds like you're saying you have to participate in a complete alienation from God, which is analogous to a cleansing process of some sort, before you can then wholly identify yourself with Him. Is that the idea?

>> No.14081338

>>14081004

It's like a cleansing, yes, but I would say it's like a kind of 'exhaustive recognition' of your being. Without it, you are not being treated as you truly are. There will always be some 'remainder' to yourself which has not been given to God, which would either itself make you unhappy, or would require an ignorance of yourself and your relation of God which would in its own way make you unhappy.

>> No.14081368

>>14081338
It's intriguing that an 'exhaustive recognition of your being' should be associated with allowing yourself to be killed. It sounds adjacent to eastern stuff about ego death, though maybe im just inventing links where none exist.

>> No.14081416

>>14081368

I don't think that's necessarily a bad connection to draw. What is crucified with Christ is the creature considered apart from God, which has important parallels to the 'illusory' self-sufficient ego which religions like Buddhism seek to break through. God dead on the Cross is the ultimate manifestation of that kind of alienating illusion of self-sufficiency.

The Christian twist over and against Eastern religions is that the recognition of the emptiness of creaturely existence does not lead to the utter destruction or negation of creatureliness and individuality. Rather creatureliness and individuality, once their alienation is exhausted, are taken up again in the Resurrection. The exhaustion of our creaturely alienation is only a preliminary ground-clearing before the true union of man and God, which resolves all fundamental tensions, comes about.

>> No.14081437

>>14081416
Thanks for your replies, very instructive.

>> No.14081476

He had to die because he was fated to die. Jesus is all about the fulfillment of prophecies, both the Jewish and Christian prophecies

As to why he is so determined to fulfill them, who knows? He did say to his disciples that after he did what he had to do he would be able to speak plainly to them, as if he himself recognized the inherent absurdity in his existence and continuous speaking in parables.

>> No.14081531

>>14080136
>I've never been able to understand this part of Christianity and it seems to be the most important part of it.
That is a typically contentful judeochristian concept that has nothing to do with authentic Christianity; if you were a Christian, or read any Christian literature, you would know this.

>> No.14081583

>>14080628
>Where is God's comprehension, aceptance on your thoughts?
This is your brain on liberalism. Who gives a fuck what an individual chooses or feels? We already have the established premise that we're all retarded and don't know what we want. Why do you hold your own feelings in such high esteem?

>> No.14081729

>>14080252
Do you guys even try to answer questions logically, or is the name of the game just to spit out random scripture and then be as cryptic as possible? I don’t remember learning this shit in Sunday school

>> No.14081764
File: 46 KB, 688x360, john-3-16-2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14081764

>>14080136
well you could hear the full gospel presentation in kjv and see what the scripture has to say about it. For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword. I guarantee you it will be impactful when you hear the preserved word of God in your native tongue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXEeMWCxyrQ&t=

>> No.14081810

>>14081583
Because believers tend to justify anything evil or wrong happening Just by saying its gods will and some how try to link it to the "fact" that we hace to do as he says while being contradictory on how hes supposed to show love, making it seem like we worth nothing and its all god playing some chess game with us. That is how ridiculous religion are. Thats right who gives a fuck about anything if god does not do anything and still pretends for brain damaged to believe he does something other than be a burden to human development since his behavior is errant af.

>> No.14081820

>>14080136
>Why was it neccassary for gods son to die for our sins?
Protestant nonsense

>>14080136
>How exactly did his death heal humanity of sin?
It didn't heal humanity of its sin; it merely provided proof that death can be conquered. It's up to each of us individually to conquer our own sin.

>> No.14081847

>>14081820

Yikes, who catechised you. No one can conquer death individually, and our rising with him depends upon our dying with him.

>> No.14081852

>>14080258
Is the Bible not literature now?

>> No.14081864

>>14081847
>No one can conquer death individually,
They can if they repent and live a life without sin for the rest of their life

>>14081847
>, and our rising with him depends upon our dying with him.
ok what denomination concocted this anime quote

>> No.14081898

>>14081864

>ok what denomination concocted this anime quote

The original one.

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."- Romans 6:4

" A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him."-2 Timothy 2:11-13

>They can if they repent and live a life without sin for the rest of their life

Imagine thinking that eternal life is about a few decades of good boy points.

>> No.14081938 [DELETED] 

>>14081001
okay, so the proposition is set up as a conditional.
>[if] man had been in a fallen state since the ancestral/original sin, Christ's crucifixion and resurrection was necessary to provide a path out of fallenness and to grace.
there is nothing in the antecedent which logically necessitates the consequent. you need more premises before christ's sacrifice becomes necessary given the existence of orignial sin.

>> No.14081948

>>14081001 #
okay, so the proposition is set up as a conditional.
>[if] man had been in a fallen state since the ancestral/original sin, [then] Christ's crucifixion and resurrection was necessary to provide a path out of fallenness and to grace.
there is nothing in the antecedent which logically necessitates the consequent. you need more premises before christ's sacrifice becomes necessary given the existence of orignial sin.

>> No.14081957

>>14080136
God didn't need to die for him to save us, he had to die for us to receive salvation. We need to see God suffer and doe as we must to be saved.

>> No.14081964

>>14081957
>God didn't need to die for him to save us
>he had to die for us to receive salvation.
what exactly is difference between god saving us, and us receiving salvation?

>> No.14081965

>>14080628
God gets to decide things because he is God. A human is in no position to criticize his judgment.

>> No.14081972

>>14081965
"because i said so" isn't a reason. it's authoritarian and egotistical nonsense. if god were real, he would have given us reasons to follow him.

>> No.14081982

>>14081964
The death of Jesus did not give God the power of salvation, it instead put humanity in a position to receive salvation. It displays the inherent connection of humanity to God, by God becoming man and suffering. Jesus is entirely God and entirely man, combined in one being.

>> No.14081994

>>14081982
>The death of Jesus did not give God the power of salvation
but then when you said
>he had to die for us to receive salvation.
you were saying something false. if god had the power of salvation before jesus died, then jesus didn't need to die for us to receive salvation.
>Jesus is entirely God and entirely man, combined in one being.
yeah, i know you christians are big on logical incoherence. it makes for better double think to justify your nonsensical holy text written by an indeterminate amount of generations of prophets with competing interests.

reminder that jesus never claimed to be god until the last gospel written at least fifty years after he died.

>> No.14081998

>>14081810
why would god create perfect land where nothing goes wrong
what is the point
your faith will be tried
it makes sense
life is difficult, this creates beauty
there is no good without bad anon
did your parents never explain this to you? how old are you that you still think “ god cant be real because i saw a retarded person yesterday” ?

>> No.14082010

>>14081994
Why do you expect God to be comprehensible by human rationality?

>> No.14082025

>>14082010
i don't. i'm not the one asserting propositions about him. if god is incomprehensible to human reason, that's literally the only thing you can say about him. you're the one trying to make out as if you posess very specific doctrinal truths about him. that's the problem at the heart of christian theology; it simultaneously asserts truths about god, and that truths about god are incomprehensible.