/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13916327]

what if ayn rands objectivism was right but she came to the wrong conclusion.

[Anonymous No.13916507]

>>13916327
Even in a bloodless & gradual transition to self ownership of labour, the state must intervene. Workers cannot cooperate without capital and their only access to it, in sufficient amounts, is through social democracy. Of course she abhorred this, but could not offer a plausible alternative.

It's best to read her as a series of unconscious utterances, ie phallic envy, because there are much better critiques of authoritarianism out there.

[Anonymous No.13916608]

>>13916327
Communism robs individuals of their products of effort, this makes no sense
>>13916507
Ayn Rand should try using logic to reason with a crackhead that thinks your wallet is the path to his next fix

[Anonymous No.13916612]

>I hate Ayn Rand

[Anonymous No.13916649]

>>13916608
>what is surplus value

u dont know shit

[Anonymous No.13916659]

>make 10 burgers for profit of the company
>get paid for this
>this is the greatest crime imaginable and also the source of all problems that humanity faces
so this is the power of communism... whoa

[Anonymous No.13916670]

>>13916608
>Communism robs individuals of their products of effort, this makes no sense
read marx. the capitalists (the owner) steals your surplus value (price of commodity - cost of production = surplus value).
this idea and many other ideas are the core of communist/non-radlib leftist ideologies, the difference and disagreement comes from the different approaches to this problem. tankies want daddy stalin to collectivize corn, anarkiddies want to the workers to kill the owner and to self manage the factory, primitive retardmmunists want to eliminate society so capitalism's problems would disappear, demsocs want to replace daddy stalin with daddy bureaucracy, etc

[Anonymous No.13916730]

>>13916670
>capitalism
your surplus value belongs to the capitalist
>marxist-leninism
your surplus value belongs to the state
>market socialism
Your surplus value belongs to your workplace
>social-democracy
your surplus value is redistributed back to you via the state
>anarchism
your surplus value is destroyed?

[Anonymous No.13916734]

>>13916670
for me, it's democratic socialism

[Anonymous No.13916742]

>>13916730
If you own the workplace then you retain the surplus value retard

[Anonymous No.13917680]

>>13916649
Entering into a contract of labor with an employer is not being stolen from, you provide labor and they provide compensation
If you don't like the contract don't enter it, stop disrespecting the freedom of people to make choices for themselves
Oh and don't give me some "Well not everyone has choices" bs, we all do and choose to live in ways that can at times feel like a burden but if someone truthfully doesn't like the contract they can leave and be a hermit at any time

[Anonymous No.13917705]

>>13916742
This is the true redpill, the real plague is not capitalism but the laws and regulations of government and banks that allowed for corporations to come into existance and go beyond small businesses
If we eliminated big companies and returned to local businesses and trading then much of the global climate change would cease as well

[Anonymous No.13917726]

Yeah you're like one of those retards who think the ideas of Hegel and Foucault are compatible (or worse, naturally lead to) fascism. Neck yourself.

[Anonymous No.13917747]

>>13917705
>Businesses grow because of the government
Hey anon, fun fact: there are actual businessowners who aren't incompetent retards and know how to make their business grow.

[Anonymous No.13917751]

>>13917747
Prove it

[Anonymous No.13917830]

>>13916327
>you can work x time in this enterprise for y cash, guaranteed, to spend however you want now
>or you can gamble your time and cash on the market outcomes for this enterprise, for a share of the profit margin, which I can't guarantee won't be negative, instead of spending that cash on the other things that interest you now

Most people pick the first, and power to them for living the present, but most people voluntarily abstain from the second* - and that is their call to make.

*Some people gamble on long-shots like lotteries because it costs practically no time, mental energy or responsibility.

[Anonymous No.13917833]

>>13916670
Marx doesn't state anywhere capitalists "steal" (a legal concept) surplus value, he insists quite the opposite.

>>13917680
>stop disrespecting the freedom of people to make choices for themselves
You kind of have to once you study the consequences.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160308024830/cog.kent.edu/lib/Philmore1/Philmore1.htm

>>13917705
If anything it's the opposite. Small businesses exist because of preferential treatment. Level the playing field more and the big guys can do most everything better and cheaper.

[Anonymous No.13917852]

Imagine btfoing pinko commies so hard that they're still crying about it 50 years later

[Anonymous No.13917859]

>>13916327
reminder that nothing stop workers from forming their own companies in a capitalist system.
it's in fact a semi-common thing.
communists are usually the improductive retards that hope they can get shit without working for it.
if you want to criticize rand, there are quite a few ways, but these tend to simply aggravate leftists even more in the process.
results in retarded macro like in OP.
>that watermark

[Anonymous No.13917873]

>>13917705
>climate change is because muh carbon and we're all gonna drown
no.

[Anonymous No.13917896]

>>13917859
>reminder that nothing stop workers from forming their own companies in a capitalist system.
Yes labour could rent capital instead of capital renting labour in any standard neoclassical model... but it's not common at all. It's about better collective cooperation in institutional development.

[Anonymous No.13917963]

Does anybody know any books about market socialism?
I cant seem to find any good ones.
I know Yugoslavia used to be semi market socialist I think.
I also know Richard Wolff mentions it but doesnt go into detail.

[Anonymous No.13917972]

>>13917963
After Capitalism by David Schweickart

[Anonymous No.13917998]

Ayn Rand suffered from delusions of grandeur and paranoia because she did huge amounts of amphetamines for ~20 years. Anyone who's done it and enjoyed it can instantly understand why her books are the way they are.

That's why she noticeably mellowed out after she stopped later in her life.

[Anonymous No.13918724]

>>13916670
>the capitalists (the owner) steals your surplus value (price of commodity - cost of production = surplus value).
No dumb fuck, Marx do something even simpler.
Seize the means of production. Capitalists seizes the means of production, to maintain the means of production. I.e ownership of machines, trade connections, segregating company into parts to not allow IP theft, IP monopoly, and a lot more.
The CAPITALIST will try to seize the means of production. If you start talking about surplus value of labor, you have lost sight of the entire production chain Marx is talking about. You are already 4 steps behind Marx, and you can't catch up to the basic fundamental of western capitalism.

So talking about stealing is even more meaningless in context, because the capitalist or organization will try to hold control over the means of production, to keep that value inside their walls.
Its why trade secrets vs patents are a thing, as well as the entire mess of things like submarine patents and patent trolling. Its also why securing proper industry is important to development of nations, as well as rare earth materials.
Its why China prioritizes price dumping on metals, to secure a monopoly of rare earth technology, so they eventually control the means to produce rare earth metals.

Even more important: Its why workers can be interchangeable and disposable, but management have secure jobs.
Talking about surplus ignores the entire chain that causes exploitation to take place.
And this is why Marx has stood the test of time, while more charismatic communists has failed to have lasting impact. Marx can't be proven wrong, as his core theory accurately reflects how hoarding of power works.

Let me repeat:
SEIZE
THE
MEANS
OF
PRODUCTION

[Anonymous No.13918785]

>>13918724
>Marx can't be proven wrong
Because commies don't listen to reason

[Anonymous No.13918792]

>>13918785
No anon, Marx can't be proven wrong because at its core Marx only writes about a very simple thing.
To prove Marx wrong would be to subvert long term trends for human nature. Even cavemen understand "mine" to some degree, even if they are communal and share everything.

[Anonymous No.13918799]

just wanted to say rand was a psy op and I didn't read her but I watched the fountain of aronofsky even if it wasn't fountain head

[Anonymous No.13918811]

>>13918792

[Anonymous No.13918832]

>>13918811
>>13918785
K, anon.
Have fun.
If you don't wanna argue, all you do is bore yourself.

[Anonymous No.13918840]

>>13918832

There's no need to argue anymore is a good song by the Cranberries

[Anonymous No.13918845]

>>13918832
>Argue
>With a filthy lying dirty communist
Your chopper is waiting

[Anonymous No.13918849]

>mfw ayn rand argues that people get a job voluntarily