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/lit/ - Literature

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13800965 No.13800965 [Reply] [Original]

I don't get it, who were the good guys?

>> No.13800972

the friends they made along the way

>> No.13800986

Why do you feel the need to label something as good? Are you sub 90 IQ?

>> No.13800992


>> No.13801557

those old guys slut-shaming helena

>> No.13801561


>> No.13801690

Diomedes is the only good guy.

>> No.13801756

Deez nuts

>> No.13801763

Alls I know is that it's all Paris's fault for starting the war.

Trojan Hector and Greek Odysseus were the most "virtuous" and "honorable" of the lot.

>> No.13802098

Hector was a lesser man

>> No.13802103

Hector is the only good one. Achilles is a cunt for most of the poem but he redeems himself at the end by helping his boys out even though he knows he is destined to die in Troy.

>> No.13802115

I've only watched Troy but I'd say the guy Brad Pitt plays

>> No.13802116
File: 98 KB, 960x795, Wh40K_cute_berserker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.13802425

The Trojans should have sent Paris' head back to Greece in Helen's arms.

>> No.13802460
File: 227 KB, 1122x1500, Amphora.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Aeneas, Hector, and BASED Diomedes

>> No.13802461
File: 17 KB, 220x258, dionysos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Pretend to be retarded so you don't have to go to war to die for some Spartan (read: retard) """King"""

Unironically based and redpilled

>> No.13802484

You're looking at this the wrong way, and by that i mean the christian way.

>> No.13802520

iliad scroll 1 line 131 says τὸν δ᾽ ἀπαμειβόμενος προσέφη kρείων Ἀγαμέμνων:
‘μὴ δ᾽ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείkελ᾽ Ἀχιλλεῦ
kλέπτε νόῳ,

Then Lord Agamemnon answered him: ‘Brave you may be, godlike Achilles, but don’t try to trick me with your cleverness.

the key word here is ἀγαθός,its ancient greek for good/brave,to be good a hero must be brave

>> No.13802551
File: 313 KB, 1628x2624, Diomedes_Glyptothek_Munich_304_n1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Correct answers.

Damn, you read it in the Greek and you still don't understand that consciously fulfilling your destiny doesn't make you brave at all?

>> No.13802842

The only right answer was none of them were the "good" guys, but Paris and Achilles(he's brave but not good) were the only ones you could call bad. Paris started the whole thing(since he was retarded enough to chose the wife of a king over power and honour) and archilles didn't help his own countrymen and wanted to see them die for some petty quar-I mean because he lost his honour at the hand of Agamemnon. Wait, what Agamemnon did wasn't good either, put him also on the list of "bad guys" as well.

>> No.13802894

Achilleus did nothing wrong
Someone steals my woman then I'd want them and everyone they know to die as well

>> No.13802995

Achilles didn't do anything wrong faggot. He had no personal allegiance to the army and had no obligation to fight. He only came along in search of glory, he didn't owe anyone a goddamn thing. Also, the Greeks in the time period of Homer and for most of history had no sense of "countrymen" the way we do today, Achilles wouldn't have given a fuck about that. Greeks didn't even think of themselves as Greek, they thought of themselves as Athenian or Spartan or what have you.
Furthermore the responsibility was squarely on Agamemnon's shoulders to try and win Achilles ' loyalty, not on Achilles's shoulders to bend over backwards and "yes massah yes massah" so he could """help""".

>> No.13803052

Facing your fate is bravery, something Hector couldn't do.

>> No.13803130


>> No.13803137

Trojans - good guys
Greeks and Paris - bad guys
Gods - the real villains

>> No.13803142

Good guy but the order of goodness:
Old fag Nestor
Big guy Ajax
manlet Ajax

>> No.13803150

>The older and most common versions state that she was admired by the god Apollo, who sought to win her with the gift to see the future. She promised him her favors, but after receiving the gift, she went back on her word and refused the god. The enraged Apollo could not revoke a divine power, so he added to it the curse that though she would see the future, nobody would believe her prophecies.

>> No.13803157


The only reason Hector lost was because Zeus was protecting Achilles and made Aphrodite stop protecting Hector.

Hector was the only good man in the books and the Greeks threw his son from the city walls.

The Greeks were the villains.

>> No.13803207

>all these posts saying achilles is bad
>this post pops up btfoing all of them in one go
>this post has zero replies

>> No.13803241

>Old fag Nestor
is that him that tells the story in the odyssey about how he won the respect of his father by murdering their neighbor and stealing all of his cows? i love how all this aristocratic ideology is built on top of just violently robbing people in the pursuit of material wealth. today's achilles calls himself tyrone and his troy is a drug corner.

>> No.13803272

Based, all the gay moralfags are too scared to reply to this post

>> No.13803274

Aristocratic morality is master morality, it's all about enforcing your will on the world.

>> No.13803286

You forgot Patroclus.

>> No.13803404

yeah and tyrone is enforcing his will on the world by stabbing a guy and taking his wallet just like nestor enforced his by stabbing a guy and stealing his cow. i'm reacting more to the fact that this warrior mindset is entirely dependent on material possessions just like today's gangster culture is all about vulgar displays of wealth with cars, hoes and golden chains being straightforward replacements for horses, sex slaves and finely wrought tripods. to have honor, in the homeric world, is to posses a pile of stolen trinkets and to lose the trinkets is to lose the honor. it's just funny to me because nobody on this board would be caught dead listening to gangsta rap but they have no problem idealizing the ancient greek version of tyrone that stabs a guy and rips valuables off of the corpse.

>> No.13803474

the transgressions of achilles had nothing to do with him moping on the beach and everything to do with him placing himself above the laws of men and gods by acts like the defilement of a corpse. i don't know how you could say "he did nothing wrong" when the poem explicitly labels his treatment of hector "shameful" an has the gods render hector's body impervious to achilles' attempts to mutilate it precisely because it is wrong.

>> No.13803693

The only right choice, he stayed true to his nature the while time.

>> No.13803703

Difference is there was also a notion of military prowess and willingness to die in combat. But you could argue Tyrone also has it when he's ready to put his life on the line the assert the supremacy on his gang on his turf.
There are probably other cultural differences as well but it's not wrong than at least several of the contemporaries of Ulysses would have been little more than Tyrones in richer garbs.

>> No.13803913

why do you feel the need to respond earnestly to memes?

>> No.13803961

Okay, combing the thread, I have my official "Good Guys" & "Bad Guys" list:


Big Ajax
Lil' Ajax



Everyone else
Especially Paris


Sound right?

>> No.13803973

Everyone acts as if little ajax was a joke, but he would still mog most athletes today.

>> No.13803978


>> No.13804008

You need to go back.

>> No.13804030

He's a dumb boomer complaining that Diomedes, Achilles, Odysseus and the others that are literally single-handedly winning the Trojan war are not good enough.

>> No.13804034

ok they do be looking kinda thicc doe

>> No.13804038

>be Hector
>pussy out and run three circuits around try fleeing from Achilles before he cut you down like a dog

>> No.13804049

>whacked in the head by Athena
>flee the battle and lose the war
Nice God of War you've got there, he's a worse warrior than Aphrodite.

>> No.13804058

Achilles was super-overpowered, and an absolute fucking asshole as well

>> No.13804073

>implying Hector was not also over-powered
He pierced hundreds of nipples in the tug and turmoil of war.

>> No.13804087

Hector was fated to die there, just as Achilles is fated to die later on. The difference between Achilles and Hector, beyond Hector appearing more virtuous, is that Achilles is able to face his fate. When Hector realises he is about to die, he runs away like a coward. When Achilles is told he will die if he fights, he fights anyway because he is not afraid of his fate: death.
Hector was all virtue when he was in the city but when he was standing in front of the city walls ready to defend it, he turned and ran. Hector was only virtuous when it suited him, at the final hour he cared only for himself. Achilles on the other hand doesn't care about virtue, he cares about one thing: honour. To face his fate of death for glory is a sign of honour, to not secede to Agamémnon is retaining his honour. When Patroclus, his greatest friend, dies, Achilles discards the quarrel for vengeance. By going out to avenge Patroclus he knows he will die, this is honour. If Hector had been in Achilles' position, he would've stayed in the camp. Hector was the lesser man, Achilles deserves the epithet 'godlike'.

>> No.13804090

lmao that roastie slut caused the whole damn thing

>> No.13804103


all the aristocratic cuck "heroes"



helen again

>> No.13804107

It was her fate. You can't blame her for slutting it up just like you can't blame Achilles for murder. Menelaus took her back, what gives you the right to accuse her?

>> No.13804112

what? cuck wordfilters to kek but only when capitalized?

>> No.13804118


>> No.13804134

He's not the God of War per-se. He represents the savage aspect of war. He may have lost to Athena's trickery and got bullied by Zeus but carnage and death ruled the battlefields nonetheless, and gave both sides what is due to them.

>> No.13804161

the greeks did not consider fate or divine compulsion to be incompatible with responsibility or not indicative of character. you can blame her just like you can blame agamemnon in the aeschylus play for performing human sacrifice even though he was under "necessity's yoke". he was compelled and he is guilty, there's no contradiction.

>> No.13804190

But Achilles had several gods on his side, while hector was fucked from the getgo and tricked by athena. What can a man do if even the gods trick you so get killed?

>> No.13804201

She could and should've killed herself to save the lives of tens of thousands. If she regreted being alive so much, why didn't she simply literally everyone (except paris) a favour and kill yourself?

>> No.13804210

>minding your own business being a queen
>get kidnapped
>your fault


>> No.13804242

>divine daughter of the highest god that will ascend into olympus and become a goddess should have killed herself instead to minimize causalities among some mortals
why should she care? she's basically a different species. she literally hatched from a fucking egg.

>> No.13804348
File: 40 KB, 500x500, 1484741970770.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

There's no good guys or bad guys in the Trojan Cycle. There's only the protagonists and the antagonists and the innocent victims in-between. The only person that can be characterized as a villain is Paris, because he was a lecherous coward who started it all.

>> No.13804349

She went willingly with paris didn't she? I thought aphrodite made her fall madly in love with paris, that's why she can't/won't flee from troy and is having sex with him in her own accord.

>> No.13804394

>I thought aphrodite made her fall madly in love with paris

So a god placed a brainwash curse on her. How is that her will and her doing?

>> No.13804397

The gods

>> No.13804661

But Hector realized he was being a coward, stopped running and turned to face Achilles. Hector's fear of death is justified because he had something to lose, while Achilles was seeing red, unable to care about anything other than striking his enemy down because he was so burdened with the grief of loss.

>> No.13804685

Fuck off randy

>> No.13804757

I don't think that's him, I don't remember it.

>> No.13804759

He only stopped because he got duped by athena into believing his dear brother was next to him and would be killed if he didn't face achilles.

>> No.13804762

He talked about it in the odyssey, I believe.

>> No.13804774

Tyrone has more honor than an average citizen, who is a merchant.

>> No.13804803

She willingly came with Paris and when she realized he is a pussy she immediately wanted to go back to Menelaus, but was forbidden to do so by Aphrodite. Literally the first historic roastie.

>> No.13804842

This but unironically.

>> No.13804923

false comparison,tyrone is like irus,and them ''trinkets'' are body armor,if you are in battle and slay a man you should take his vest and supplies

>> No.13804947

When the poem describes the characters stripping a fallen foe of their armour, is that a literal description of a custom that they had or is it some kind of metaphor? Stopping in the midst of battle to loot your foe sounds impractical and dangerous.

>> No.13804979

one of the ajax's had a breastplate of linen,the armor is rare.

>> No.13805019

also once you down a man your line of offense needs to gain ground in order to strip the corpse then the front line fighter gets a break and someone from the back lines steps up to win kudos.dont think that the frontline fighters never rotated with fresh men from the back

>> No.13805030

It's kind of funny imagining a lackey standing there a metre or two away from Aias with a few pieces of armour in his hands, waiting for Aias to kill a dude so he could swoop and strip him.

>> No.13805057

Why do Anglos like shortening the names?
They turned Homeros into Homer and Platon into Plato.

>> No.13805066

osama bin ladin carried a rifle that he pillaged from a russian corpse until the day he died,it was always within arms reach

>> No.13805079

Risking your life to protect someone you love because you value their life more than your own sounds rather heroic to me and a proper redemption for his display of cowardice.

>> No.13805137

I was replying directly to the anon's critique of Achilles moping, which is why my post took that line of argumentation. As to Achilles's blinding rage-induced massacre and attempted mutilation of Hector's corpse, I'd say that its complex. The Greek gods also aren't exactly moral authorities.

>> No.13805145

Why does Tyrone live in your head rent free? But yes this is all true. Tyrone isn't very successful at enforcing his will because he is limited by his intelligence which profoundly reduces his worldview to animalistic hedonist pleasures, but he understand and engages in master morality nevertheless.

>> No.13805154

nice conversation anons

>> No.13805157

that's all wrong. the armor is taken as a valuable trophy and not for any immediate practical purpose (the stripped armor is described as being taken back to the ships, ie loot to be taken back home, not used), "supplies" are not mentioned and the entire practice is portrayed as a dangerous feat and not any kind of battlefield necessity. these aren't your dumb video games where you have to grab ammo and medkits from corpses or whatever.

>and he fell, thunderously, and shining Aias ran forward
>to strip his armor, but the Trojans showered spears upon him,
>sharp spears and glittering, and the great shield caught many.
>Setting his heel on the chest of the corpse he pulled out the brazen
>spear, yet could no longer strip the rest of the glorious
>armor from his shoulders, since he was battered with spears thrown,
>and he dreaded the strong circle made by the haughty Trojans,

then there's the matter of all the other things they loot and hoard, animals and slaves and tipods and cauldrons, which have no purpose on the battlefield and are taken to be brought back home and displayed as symbols of status and valor or exchanged in the rituals of guest-friendship. these people couldn't possibly be aristocrats in the homeric world without possessing a hoard of stupid trinkets because the trinkets are proof of their aristocratic status (with the size of your share of trinkets received after a battle proportional to your peers' respect for your combat performance) and entering social relationships with other aristocrats requires the exchange of these trinkets.

and "tyrone" is nothing like irus because irus is a beggar surviving on the scraps of his betters whereas tyrone's gang with their blood-earned drug money forms the aristocracy of their ghetto around which the rest of the social life revolves. tyrone's iruses are the junkies that hang around hoping for a free sample.

>> No.13805162

This. The Jews believed the same thing and Paul makes this argument in Romans. Compelled to do so, made to be bad, but still absolutely guilty.

>> No.13805168

the moral condemnation of the treatment of hector's corpse comes directly from the lyrical subject who calls it shameful long before the gods intervene.

>> No.13805175

Probably both. Symbolizes taking glory from the man you killed and was likely also a real custom.

>> No.13805201

Sure. But again I would it's a complicated affair. Which is not to say that it was not immoral but rather that there's a lot going on with it and it's not as easy as simply saying that the text refers to it as shameful therefore Achilles was a bad man. It certainly is a shameful act but in the context that alone is not enough to prove guilt IMO

>> No.13805236

you have it all wrong, i think about tyrone because i ultimately sympathize with him. what i don't respect is people who are repulsed by modern-tyrone but lionize ancient-tyrone just because his lifestyle was made respectable by the passage of time. i think that includes you, unless you'd also say the homeric greek heroes were limited by their low intelligence to animalistic pleasures when they enjoyed the thrill of battle or competed to win the sex slave with the prettiest ankles.

>> No.13805263

it was the 9th year of the war,it said in iliad that ships came and did business with the greeks,dont think the lot sat idle,also odysseus is given more wealth by the phoenicians then he would have brought back from troy.

and tyron irus comparison is spot on

Arnaeus or Irus was the beggar due to his willingness to run messages for the Suitors of Penelope (see also Iris, the divine rainbow messenger). He was a beggar in Ithaca who sees Odysseus (disguised as a beggar) encroaching on his territory so he becomes aggressive and begins to insult him. They go back and forth threatening each other until Antinous notices the confrontation and exclaims that watching the two beggars square off would be entertaining.

an example of street level thuggery in a corrupt society whose young men are raised fatherless because none of the men came back from troy

>> No.13805270

yeah, the armor was taken because it was valuable loot but also a proof of your victory and an insult to the slain, like a scalp. there's a bit where someone refuses to strip a fallen foe out of respect and instead burns the body with the armor intact.

>> No.13805271

>ghetto gangs, thugs and drug dealers as seen through the eyes of Homeros
Shit like this is why I love /lit/

>> No.13805280

greeks were nigger-tier and so are the olympians

>> No.13805291

Well yeah, I would also say that about the Homeric Greek heroes sans Odysseus. That said, they were obviously more intelligent than Tyrone seeing as they spoke in meter and beautiful flowing poetry.

>> No.13805304

your lazy wiki copypaste does not address my point at all. tyrone is a gangster and earns his bread by risking his life, like odysseus did. irus hangs around the homeric gangsters (who have no problem with admitting to robbery and piracy but are insulted by the idea of doing what we'd now call "real" work, like trade) to collect their scraps. you have the basic social dimensions of these situations confused. you also completely ignored my larger point about the homeric aristocratic society being founded on bling.

>> No.13805307
File: 1.22 MB, 1024x768, zeus.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Everyone except the gods.

>> No.13805308

This guy gets it. The Greeks of the archaic period were niggers. Aeschylus is the true redpill

>> No.13805317

lol no they didn't, later poets spoke about them in beautiful poetry. you really think some illiterate warrior chieftain talked in dactilic hexameter? this is exactly what i mean by them being made respectable in the course of time.

>> No.13805327

It was a joke mate

>> No.13805334

Tyrone exists because the state allows him to. a more apt comparison would be warlords in somalia, but even they are just allowed to exist by the 'international community'. Our modern warlords don't fight, they run things through capital and high up government agency networks.

>> No.13805337

ok, there's no way for me to tell, people are saying stupider things itt sincerely

>> No.13805338

there were no good/bad guys
in the modern sense, hector is the closest to "good"

>> No.13805365

the homeric aristocratic society was founded on family,like priams palace with rooms for his over 50 children,

>> No.13805375

ok, so they're more like latin american gangsters. just switch tyrone for jose. gotta represent the familia, ese.

>> No.13805404

Oh, dude, I'd totally pay to see the Iliad interpreted through a South American "muh familia" gangster context. It worked similarly with Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet via West Side Story.

>> No.13805423
File: 1.18 MB, 1200x1562, emma.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

more like 1300 germany with its many kingdoms

>> No.13805441

the opening line is a genealogy it mentions peleus first

>> No.13805470

a coalition of late bronze age wanex's is nothing like what some weak modern faggot can imagine

>> No.13805569

of course they fight, there's thousands of gang-related homicides every year in the us. obviously living as outlaws in the unsanctioned margins of capitalism is different than a true wilderness but it's still fun to compare the parallels in the resulting lifestyles.

>And the heralds brought water at once, and poured it over
>their hands, and the young men filled the mixing bowl with pure wine
>and passed it to all, pouring first a libation in goblets.
>Then when they had poured out wine, and drunk as much as their hearts wished,
>they set out from the shelter of Atreus’ son, Agamemnon.


>> No.13805960

Running from your fate is bad

>> No.13805981

Aeneas and his family

>> No.13806041

>it's just funny to me because nobody on this board would be caught dead listening to gangsta rap

You are now aware that the favourite word of /lit/ – "based" – comes in fact from a rapper.

>> No.13806784

Great comment bro.

>> No.13807286 [DELETED] 

Yeah and Hector's actions there mirror Achilles: forfeiting your life for a loved one (in this case family, but Patroclus was basically family to Achilles), the major different is that Hector is saving while Achilles is avenging. They're both opposite acts of honour: Achilles starts fighting to avenge while Hector stops running to save. I agree that Hector is redeemed in his final action of his cowardice, but that doesn't stop the fact that his acts of virtue were only superficial, if he'd truly been as great as he appeared he would've stood his ground and faced his fate (one can point to the 300 Spartans for an example of this). I still think Hector's act of cowardice makes him lesser than Achilles, but I'll agree he is redeemed.
It's interesting to note that the people Hector and Achilles act this way for are (basically in Patroclus' case) family. It's probably Homer saying that family is the most important thing/the only thing you should risk your life for. I'm reminded of the line in Antigone:
>And yet, to those with sense, by honouring you I
>did well; for if the oozing corpse were my own child,
>or my dead husband, I would never have performed
>thus labour in defiance of the citizens.
Which itself is derived from Herodotus 3.119. Family can never be replaced, so they are worth risking your life for.

>> No.13807293

Yeah and Hector's actions there mirror Achilles: forfeiting your life for a loved one (in this case family, but Patroclus was basically family to Achilles), the major different is that Hector is saving while Achilles is avenging. They're both opposite acts of honour: Achilles starts fighting to avenge while Hector stops running to save. I agree that Hector is redeemed in his final action from his cowardice, but that doesn't stop the fact that his acts of virtue were only superficial, if he'd truly been as great as he appeared he would've stood his ground and faced his fate (one can point to the 300 Spartans for an example of this). I still think Hector's act of cowardice makes him lesser than Achilles, but I'll agree he is redeemed.
It's interesting to note that the people Hector and Achilles act this way for are (basically in Patroclus' case) family. It's probably Homer saying that family is the most important thing/the only thing you should risk your life for. I'm reminded of the line in Antigone:
>And yet, to those with sense, by honouring you I
>did well; for if the oozing corpse were my own child,
>or my dead husband, I would never have performed
>this labour in defiance of the citizens.
Which itself is derived from Herodotus 3.119. Family can never be replaced, so they are worth risking your life for.

>> No.13807811

We need more threads discussing the Iliad

>> No.13807837

>the transgressions of achilles
all of which were the fault of agamemnon for taking achilles own prize away from him, literally every character in the book sided with achilles and thought agamemnon was in the wrong for doing that
all his further transgressions stem from that; agamemnon's own transgression

>> No.13807859

He was in the right at first, but not helping his dear comrades when their and his life is in immediate danger is retarded when he gets offered evrything that has been taken away from him plus much more. He could've guessed that someone he cares about is going to die, because he can't accept that the guy in charge is a massive cunt without any honour. Heck, he could've also just went home at that point, couldn't he? That way everyone he cares about (with the exception of one guy) would be safe.

>> No.13807880

nothing about how he chooses to treat the corpse of hector has anything to do with agamemnon. having been a victim of an unrelated injustice perpetrated by an unrelated person does not justify your own acts of injustice unless you just don't believe in personal responsibility and think child molesters are blameless as long as they were bullied twenty years prior or whatever.

>> No.13808943

The Odyssey is a more enjoyable read.

>> No.13808999

so is your mom's obituary

>> No.13809060

>virtuous and honorable
Did you skip book 10, or what? he is canonically neither of those things

>> No.13809298

odysseus lived and made it home

>> No.13810449

good guys were the dorians that destroyed degenerate achaeans

>> No.13810637

Can't do much about low IQ

>> No.13811649

Achilles is a hero to be looked up to but he was still human and susceptible to error. Most of the characters were complex.

>> No.13811673

desecration of hector's body > hector killing patroclus > achilles sending patroclus to fight on his behalf > achilles not wanting to fight because agamemnon was an asshole to him

it's all a sequential build-up to his fate which was set in stone and i'm not sure how you can compare a man who puts honour above everything to a child molester that was bullied 20 years ago even though parts of ancient greek society accepted grown men fucking children

>> No.13812412

Σε πάω εσένα, είσαι ωραίος εσύ!

>> No.13812818
File: 59 KB, 518x573, smile of harold.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>honour means taking stuff from people
then why the hell was achilles called honourable when he refused all the precious gifts from agamemnon?

>> No.13812831

Because taking something from someone without physical violence is for women and faggots.

>> No.13812883

and yet in the iliad/odyssey, gifts were incredibly common

>> No.13813377

Because agamemnon wronged achilles and therefore anything he will try to give achilles to reconcile their strife will be refused by him due to "his honour" that he lost when agamemnon acted like a literal child towards him that one time.

>> No.13813406

your first arrow already doesn't describe any obvious causality. he stands over the body of hector and there's no reason why he shouldn't just move on, his vengeance for patroclus complete, death for death. but he didn't move on, he "thought of shameful treatment for glorious Hektor" and what followed was the desecration of the corpse of a hero in front of mourning relatives as well as mass human sacrifice, and if you had any doubt that these were revolting acts then achilles himself describes his intentions by likening them to cannibalism ("I wish only that my spirit and fury would drive me to hack your meat away and eat it raw"). the nature of his transgressions is that he does not know his place as a mortal and refuses to deal with his grief within the means available to mortals, believing himself instead to be a god or even beyond gods and usurping the right to breaking all human and divine law in the pursuit of his grief. that's why his redemption is about being brought back down to the mortal level through his encounter with priam with whom he bonds over the fleeting nature of mortal life and the pain of losing family.

none of this would have happened, obviously, without the earlier conflict with agamemnon but then again that wouldn't have happened without the crime of paris, and paris wouldn't have taken helen if eris didn't throw the apple at the wedding and the wedding wouldn't have happened if zeus didn't want to get rid of thetis and so on. agamemnon himself, as the audience of a homeric poem would certainly be aware, is the product of a cursed kinslaying family, so how is he any less fated to be in this mess than achilles? the way out of this meaningless world of blameless automatons is to realize that, like i already wrote somewhere above, the greeks did not see destiny and responsibility as mutually exclusive and this whole "fate vs free will" dichotomy was of no consequence to them, even if your bad high school teacher insisted that that's what oedipus tyrannus was about. character is fate and fated or not achilles was who he was, a self-admitted figurative cannibal who willingly made himself subhuman even as he accomplished superhuman feats.

>> No.13813429

Because Agamemnon is a piece of shit and accepting anything from him makes you a piece of shit by proxy.

>> No.13813540

It's the curse brought onto him by tantalus. He can't be blamed for being cursed to be a monster. Except that times with achilles and what he did to antigone, he is a pretty great ruler. Why do you think his subjects accept him behaving like a child sometimes? It's because in their eyes he's a really great ruler.

>> No.13813734

first of all, achilles is not called honorable for refusing agamemnon's reconciliatory gifts, he is called unreasonable and stubborn, and the envoys find it shocking that he would refuse a payment far greater than the original injury. they cannot reconcile it with their traditional concepts of warrior's honor at all:

>And yet a man takes from his brother’s slayer the blood price, (...) and the injured man’s heart is curbed, and his pride, and his anger when he has taken the price; but the gods put in your breast a spirit not to be placated, bad

>Thus it was in the old days also, the deeds that we hear of from the great men, when the swelling anger descended upon them. The heroes would take gifts; they would listen, and be persuaded.

so achilles is actually the one breaking warrior custom here; honor is normally to be bought and sold and the gravest injury still carries a "blood price" that will fix everything if paid. secondly, as much as achilles is mad at agamemnon specifically it is a major mistake to read his refusal to fight as a purely personal matter. he's not just refusing to fight for agamemnon, he is rejecting wholesale the warrior ideology that values "honor":

>Fate is the same for the man who holds back, the same if he fights hard.
>We are all held in a single honor, the brave with the weaklings.
>A man dies still if he has done nothing, as one who has done much.

all that agamemnon did by taking the concubine is trigger in achilles this realization that the entire warrior lifestyle is a scam. this is in fact major evidence that the homeric concept of honor is fundamentally about hoarding trinkets: if there was more to honor than the trophies then why would stealing the trophy render honor meaningless? achilles would still know that he was the better man, he would know other honorable men knew it and he would at worst refuse to follow the unjust agamemnon instead of rejecting the basic tenets of warrior society. but no, the material rewards of honor ARE honor, honor does not exist without them and as soon as the possibility of the rewards being rescinded at a later date is introduced the whole system collapses, and now men are "all held in a single honor, the brave with the weaklings". achilles is simply the only one to realize this. and notice that his return to the battlefield is not a return to the confines of warrior culture as he becomes this inhuman wraith that tramples all rules in pursuit of vengeance and boast that no amount of riches (ie no amount of "honor") could ever dissuade him from his ghoulish quest to mutilate a divinely protected corpse. and what brings him back in the end is no hoard of trinkets but the embrace of a man resembling his own father, a memory from beyond the battlefield of happy summers in peaceful farmland that strikes deeper than all the hollow customs of killing men to rob their corpses of metal.

>> No.13814295
File: 10 KB, 480x360, 846846469.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.13814744

underrated post

>> No.13815660
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I think it's the other way round, the others see honour as something to be bought and sold, but Achilles sees honour as something higher than any material reward. Agamémnon doesn't just take his things, be also makes him out to be weak and under his control. Achilles wants his stuff back but is also dishonoured by being treated in such a low way despite actually being stronger (he also says how Agamémnon doesn't fight as often as he does). To accept the gifts would be admit he can be bought, that his honour is worth as much as their trinkets. For Achilles honour is immaterial, and for what does he break off the quarrel? for his love and brotherhood of Patroclus. For others honour is as you say, how much metal you have, but for Achilles it's more.

>> No.13815685
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It's true Achilles talks about having treasures being unfairly distributed, but Achilles ultimately doesn't fight for metal, he fights for glory. Fate is the same for cowards and the brave: they die. The different is that the man with honour will have glory and will be remembered, which is why Achilles chose to go to Troy knowing he will die. Both those who win much in combat and those who win nothing both die, but the man with honour will be remembered.
Similarly, his mutilation of Hector is due to his love and brotherhood felt for Patroclus, no riches are greater than this. His thoughts of home and his father stop him, things beyond the petty trinkets. Achilles wants his fair share, but why he does a lot of these things isn't motivated purely by it.

>> No.13816141

if what he wants is to be remembered and glorified then it's untenable for him to achieve it by following a different concept of honor than everybody else, since he needs to appear deserving of glory and remembrance in their eyes and not his own. once again, the envoys don't leave impressed by his integrity and commitment to a higher, "immaterial" form of honor, they leave confused and convinced he has a dead heart that does not accept reason. how is acting like that going to earn him eternal fame?

what you're proposing is this contradictory reading of achilles as someone who simultaneously cares about no opinion but his own private convictions that nobody else shares, but also wants nothing but to earn the praise of the crowd so that they write songs about him. is this "higher" honor about how you judge yourself or how others judge you? it's not the former because then being unjustly robbed of a reward would not destroy his motivation as a warrior. but if it's the latter then agamemnon's ability to confiscate rewards nullifies this "higher" honor just as much as the "materialistic" one since the society that does the judging only looks at the material proofs of honor anyway. remember the bit where two warriors from opposing sides honor their the alliance of their fathers by refusing to fight and swapping armors? seems like a great example of a noble custom of a warrior caste or whatever, but then one of them is immediately called a moron by the narrator for giving away a very expensive armor in exchange for a very cheap one, one hundred oxen traded for nine. you don't earn fame this way, except as a famous idiot. glory is loot.

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