/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13772754]

What are 20 must read foundational books? I have so many books on my too read list but most of them are unrelated to each other and based on obscure interests of mine. What are the best 20 books to have read for the purpose of holding a conversation about literature and understanding most literary references? I don't know why I'm having a hard time putting what I'm looking for into words but hopefully you get what I'm saying. Books like The Odyssey, Ulysses, Don Quixote idk.

[Anonymous No.13772757]

>>13772754
The Foundation for Exploration

[Anonymous No.13773026]

>>13772754
A good study bible -- any bible with lots of annotations.
A good introduction to Greek myth, Graves or Hamilton.
John Taylor Gatto's Underground History of American Public Education.
Richard Burton's unexpurgated Alf Layla wa Layla with all his footnotes.
Ellul's stuff on propaganda and writing.
Tolkein's Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Beowulf (his lectures and introductions to them most definitely).
Thucydides.
And then put out all the lights but one, turn your back to the doorway, and read Chants of Maladoror.

[Anonymous No.13773070]

>>13772754
The Willard Trask translation of the Memoirs of Casanova.
Good newer translations of the Chinese epic novels (Water Margin, Journey to the West, etc).

[Anonymous No.13773093]

>>13772754
Cool ironing board

[Read Aquinas No.13773098]

>>13772754
see name

[Anonymous No.13773135]

>>13772754
If you read books just so you can talk to others about it and get references, you're doing it wrong.

[Anonymous No.13773322]

>>13772754
Interesting question. We've started the list here, but really it's a very basic Western canon you want. We could debate entries forever, but here's my start for classic literature you really should read because it helps with basically all later fiction you might read:

1. The King James Bible
2. Dante
3. Milton
4. Homer
5. Aeneid
6. Graves' Greek Myths
7. Don Quixote
8. Morte d'Arthur
9. One Thousand and One Nights
10. Gulliver's Travels
11. Moby Dick
12. War and Peace
13. Don Quixote
14. Beowulf
15. Chaucer
16. Crime and Punishment
17. Shakespeare
18. The Tale of Genji
19. Faust
20. The Decameron
(if you have any real interest in medieval I'd add The Pearl-poet, Petrarch, Ovid, Golden Legend, and foremost of all, Boethius--which was insanely influential)

Of course, if we were going for non-fiction (philosophy, etc.) it would be a completely different list (Plato, Marx, Paine, Machiavelli, Darwin, Aquinas, Smith, Kant, Wollstonecraft, Einstein, etc.) Modern work would need Proust, Joyce, Eliot, Pound, Woolf, James, Orwell, Kafka, Hemingway, etc., and so on. But reading those basic 20 would be a great start.

[Anonymous No.13773351]

>>13773322
I'd add The Mahabharata and The Epic of Gilgamesh

[Anonymous No.13773376]

>>13773351
That's a western list, he's more into fiction like the Bible

[Anonymous No.13773383]

This is enough for a lifetime.

[Anonymous No.13773396]

>>13772754
wmytmwtj

[Anonymous No.13773433]

>>13773376
>One Thousand and One Nights
>The Tale of Genji
>western

[Anonymous No.13773444]

>>13773433
The 1001 Nights directly or indirectly influenced Chaucer, Boccaccio, etc., but yes, Genji probably shouldn't be there. What should I replace it with?

[Anonymous No.13773464]

>>13773322
Philistine new to /lit/ here, why is the Bible recommended so often?

[Anonymous No.13773472]

>>13773464
Name a more influential text.
Also some writer said that all the books were already conceptualized in the bible, and he isn't wrong.

[Anonymous No.13773474]

>>13773376
OP literally never mentioned that the list had to be Western, though.

[Anonymous No.13773484]

>>13773474
But a grounding the foundational Western stuff will enable you to appreciate everything else better, even if it's not Western.

[Anonymous No.13773492]

>>13773484
Debatable, but okay.

[Anonymous No.13773496]

>>13773474
Most of the work discussed here is North American or European, by a huge margin, so I went with that. besides, I'm much less familiar with non-Western canons.

[Anonymous No.13773513]

>>13773444
Depends. You can go Epic of Gilgamesh if you want to talk about works that influenced later western authors. You can also choose a book from Dumas or Don Juan by Byron. There is also Paradise Lost and Utopia

[Anonymous No.13773521]

>>13773496
>North American
You mean American, right? Because Canada and Mexico are also in North America. Either way, Bloom includes both in the Western canon.

[Anonymous No.13773532]

>>13773513
I've got Milton already, but Dumas might be good, or Hugo--both very important. Utopia's a good thought, too. Gilgamesh is probably the best choice, since it influenced Homer and everyone else (as opposed to, say, Beowulf, which only became read in the 19th century--though it's a fine example of a period and type of literature). A strong case could be made for adding Grimm and Andersen to the list in terms of things everyone should know.

[Anonymous No.13773590]

>>13773532
Beowulf was read (and told) before that and Tolkein's characterization of it as a pure story is the basis of modern fantasy fiction.

[Anonymous No.13773618]

>>13773322
is twice really enough for don quixote?

[Anonymous No.13773627]

>>13773590
Not really (pre-19th c: you're certainly right about Tolkien, Lewis, Morris, etc.). Beowulf is only extant in the Nowell Codex, and nobody published a full copy of the story until 1815 (in Danish). The first real translations into English, etc., are all Victorian: that's when it became important. Old English as a recognized and imagined period is a fairly new conception. I can expand on that some other time.

[Anonymous No.13773639]

>>13773618
Heh, I missed that. Great, a slot for Dumas or Hugo?

[Anonymous No.13773650]

>>13773639
I think I'd vote for Notre-Dame de Paris.

[Anonymous No.13773654]

>>13773639
Les Mis, obviously.

[Anonymous No.13773679]

>>13773654
Then there's Frankenstein...

[Anonymous No.13773760]

The Vedas
Tao Ching
Art of War
Republic
The Odyssey
The Aenid
The Divine Comedy
The Tanakh
New Testament
The Koran
Confessions
A Treatise on God as First Principle
The Prince
Leviathan
An Essay Concerning Human Understanding
Origin of Species
Creative Evolution
Ethics
Critique of Pure Reason
Beyond Good and Evil
Beyond the Pleasure Principle
Principia Mathematica
Being and Time
Phenomenology of Spirit
Origin of the Family
Capital
State and Revolution
A Thousand Plateaus
Discipline and Punish
Simulacra and Simulation
Society of the Spectacle

probably missed one or two

[Anonymous No.13773765]

>>13773760
Ding ding ding

[Anonymous No.13773775]

>>13773760
>A Thousand Plateaus
>Discipline and Punish
>Simulacra and Simulation
>Society of the Spectacle
you were doing so well before this. theyre all good books but come on

[Anonymous No.13773779]

>>13772754
>to have read for the purpose of holding a conversation about literature and understanding most literary references

[Anonymous No.13774190]

>>13773760
An impressively eclectic list.

[Anonymous No.13774237]

>>13773026
What is a good Bible?
German one would help.

[Anonymous No.13774322]

>>13773383
>chaucer
f u

[Anonymous No.13774620]

>>13772754
imagine being her
god I wish that were me

[Anonymous No.13774638]

>>13773026
Tolkien's. Beowulf translation is his best work and so much better than Heaney's.

[Anonymous No.13774922]

>>13773760
Great books, but mostly useless for OP's stated purpose.

[Anonymous No.13775277]

>>13773760
>>13773322
I think we should fit some russians in there? Also did I miss Freud or was he not in those lists?

[Anonymous No.13775967]

>>13775277
>I think we should fit some russians in there?
Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky are in there.

[Anonymous No.13776792]

>>13774638
I have a half-dozen translations of Beowulf (and can read the original) and Burton Raffel's is one of my favourite for plain-speech literal transliteration of lines.
https://www.bpi.edu/ourpages/auto/2017/9/13/42764661/beowulf__raffel_translation_.pdf

[Anonymous No.13776845]

>>13775277
List is for fiction

[Anonymous No.13777059]

>>13772754
Who is this Goddess?

[Anonymous No.13777137]

>>13772754
sorry mate, there are 21 must read foundational books. can you remake this thread with this changed please

[Anonymous No.13777144]

>>13773618
hahahahahahaha

[Anonymous No.13777168]

>>13777137
So what's your final list?

[Anonymous No.13777526]

>>13777168
this >>13773322
but with another Don Quixote

[Anonymous No.13777659]

>>13777526
So we need three Don Quixotes? Well, if you say so. But why stop there?

[Anonymous No.13777980]

>>13773026
odd but based take on chants of maladoror

[Anonymous No.13778001]

>>13777168
How the fuck do Anglos even manage to pronounce some of those names considering English is a mess? "Thucydides". That can have at leat 20 pronounciations.

[Anonymous No.13778019]

>>13778001
When in doubt, find a video of an old Oxford don speaking about it, and use their pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.13778134]

>>13777059
Sanne Vloet
>>13773135
I don't.

[Anonymous No.13778147]

So the consensus seems to be something along the lines of

King James Bible
Dante
Milton
Homer
Aeneid
Graves Greek Myths
Don Quixote
Morte D'Arthur
The Epic of Gilgamesh
Gulliver's Travels
Moby Dick
War and Peace
Don Quixote
Beowulf
Chaucer
Crime and Punishment
Shakespeare
Don Quixote
Faust
The Decameron

[Anonymous No.13778171]

>>13778147
That's an excellent list. Nothing is "complete," but those are all major texts and really set you up nicely for understanding and appreciating other literature and references. Even where a text isn't completely essential (Gulliver's Travels, for instance) it's a good representative of a literary period and Swiftian irony/satire was very influential.

[Anonymous No.13778412]

>>13778147
Pretty good list but could use something from Cervantes, my recommendation would be Don Quixote.

[Anonymous No.13778438]

>>13773492
Not him but how is that debatable? We have very limited access to Eastern works and it is true that Western works prepare you to enjoy art if for no other reason than when you do end up reading some Eastern stuff its inevitably going to be through the form of a Western translation.

[Anonymous No.13778440]

>>13778147
have sex, cunt

[Anonymous No.13778527]

>>13776792
what's the most poetic one?

[Anonymous No.13778531]

>>13778134
>Sanne Vloet
they never look as good when you see multiple pics of them

[Anonymous No.13778549]

>>13778531
the second I open their instagram I completely cease to be attracted to them, literally every time.

[Anonymous No.13778629]

>>13778527
For poetic style, I admit I favour Heaney usually, but Tolkien did a high and stately job, and of course his depth of understanding of the original language is much greater than Heaney's, though I would consider Heaney the finer poet (Tolkien is more bard than modern poet). Frederick R. Rebsamen did an uneven poetic version back in 1991 which takes some care with alliteration and beat, sprung lines, etc., but commits other sins with meaning and placement of words.

[Anonymous No.13778662]

>>13773472
Quran

[Anonymous No.13778677]

>>13778440
I have two kids and just had sex with my wife, anon. There is time enough in a life for both reading and lovemaking (and collecting and travel and anything else). It's not an either/or situation.

[Anonymous No.13778684]

>>13778677
gay

[Anonymous No.13778708]

>>13778629
Just as a warning (or to reiterate) Heaney's translation is far from accurate. He takes poetic liberties all over the place. If you want to read something very well-translated you're better off with prose, and the best overall is Michael Swanton's for scholarly accuracy.

[Anonymous No.13778736]

>>13778708
what about raffel's?

[Anonymous No.13778751]

Sex is for fags, real men are based celibates like Paul

[Anonymous No.13778758]

>>13778736
It's quite strong, sort of a balance between transliteration and poetry. He uses compound words/kennings, etc. like Heaney, and free verse, but he's taking a lot more liberties than Swanton (though fewer than Heaney). Still, he's clear and accessible:

They have seen my strength for themselves, have watched me rise from the darkness of war, dripping with my enemies’ blood. I drove five great giants into chains, chased all of that race from the earth. I swam in the blackness of night, hunting monsters out of the ocean, and killing them one by one; death was my errand and the fate they had earned.”

“The Danish king was lifted into place, smoke went curling up, logs roared, open wounds split and burst, skulls melted, blood came bubbling down, and the greedy fire-demons drank flesh and bones from the dead of both sides, until nothing was left.”

[Anonymous No.13778801]

>>13778412
Literally why?

[Anonymous No.13779295]

>>13772754
I'd lather that ironingboard with my hot cum.

[Anonymous No.13779468]

>>13778801
Why not?

[Anonymous No.13779510]

>>13778662
Quran is mostly derivative of the Bible. Else is just Mohammed's autistic ramblings.

[Anonymous No.13779516]

>>13772754

Something by Dickens- maybe Great Expectations

[Anonymous No.13779536]

>>13778801
>>13779468
There are two mention of Don Quixote in the list already, hence the joke and the ensuing confusion.

[Anonymous No.13779606]

>>13773760
Is Principia Mathematica actually worth reading? I like math.

[Anonymous No.13779668]

>>13779510
Mohammad was illiterate and couldn't have read the Bible to copy it

[Anonymous No.13779685]

>>13779510
You got to give it more credit than that; at the least it is debatable whether it is a literary masterpiece

>Michael Sells, citing the work of the critic Norman O. Brown, acknowledges Brown's observation that the seeming disorganization of Quranic literary expression—its scattered or fragmented mode of composition in Sells's phrase—is in fact a literary device capable of delivering profound effects as if the intensity of the prophetic message were shattering the vehicle of human language in which it was being communicated.[99][100] Sells also addresses the much-discussed repetitiveness of the Quran, seeing this, too, as a literary device.

A text is self-referential when it speaks about itself and makes reference to itself. According to Stefan Wild, the Quran demonstrates this metatextuality by explaining, classifying, interpreting and justifying the words to be transmitted. Self-referentiality is evident in those passages where the Quran refers to itself as revelation (tanzil), remembrance (dhikr), news (naba'), criterion (furqan) in a self-designating manner (explicitly asserting its Divinity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#Literary_style

[Anonymous No.13779713]

>>13779606
No. Read Apology of a Mathematician, Science and Hypothesis, Psychology of Mathematical Invention and Memoirs of a Mathematician stuggling with his century instead.
There's also Recolte et Semaille but there are only unofficial translations in some obscure websites.

[Anonymous No.13779727]

>>13774620

self hater

[Anonymous No.13779730]

>>13779668
he didn't have to literally have read the bible for it to influence him. it's derivative of the basic judeo-christian myths and ideas every child is familiar with.
>>13779685
>it's good prose
o-ok? i mean, it's not really. it's extremely repetitive and often incoherent.
>it's self-referential
the combined text of this thread is very self referential. doesn't make it good prose.
but all this stuff is irrelevant as none of it makes the quran culturally influential which was the original point being debated.

[Anonymous No.13779738]

>>13779713
None of these look similar to Principia

[Anonymous No.13779751]

>>13779730
Considering the religion it was the basis for motivated hundreds of years of crusades even if you limit culturally influential to the west it still ultimately was

[Anonymous No.13780956]

>>13779751
The Quran is certainly a crucial book historically, but the use of it in later western fiction is relatively minimal, so I left it out. Biblical references, on the other hand, are constant.

[Anonymous No.13780994]

>>13779738
Yes, because a book similar to Principia would be boring as hell and not very rewardng to boot. Yout best shots in that veon would be Frege's works on the fondation of arithmetic, the Tractatus Logicus-Philosophicus, and anygood math textbook on a subkect you like. But all the books in my above ppst were written by top tier mathematicians better known for their contributions to the field, so they're worth checking out.

[Anonymous No.13781756]

Bump