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13639863 No.13639863 [Reply] [Original]

Is he right? Should i postpone reading Marx until I have a firm grasp of Hegel?
>inb4 postpone reading Marx cuz he sux xD

>> No.13639872

nah

read the introduction to the grundrisse instead

read hegel after marx if you're that interested but it absolutely is not ESSENTIAL to understand marx himself

>> No.13639925

>>13639872
What is the best reading order for Marx then. Should I start with capital or wait until I've read the briefer works like communist manifesto and the German ideology to read capital and grundrisse

>> No.13640018

>>13639863
No, if you're interested in Marx then you should read some Marx and only then go to Hegel (and then come back to Marx, etc.)

>>13639925
You should start with a bunch of shorter works:
>Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
>Wage Labour and Capital
>Manifesto of the Communist Party
>The German Ideology, Chapter One
>Comments on James Mill, "Éléments D’économie Politique"
>Some of the 1844 Manuscripts (e.g. Estranged Labour, Private Property and Communism, The Power of Money; probably not the one on rent, definitely not the ones on Hegel)

But then definitely read the first volume of Capital. It's a must.

>> No.13640188

>>13639863
How do I learn to understand the existence of alternative viewpoints to materialism through materialism?
I think that idealism is much better in explaining this, as 'materialism' is much more limited, and is but a set of ideas among other ideas, but materialism would imply that it is the totality; so how can any alternatives even exist?

>> No.13640568

>>13640188
Well the point of Marx's concept of materialism as far as I understand it is that ideology emerges from material circumstance. So for instance certain traditions can almost always be traced back to the environment a tribe or community existed in. These take on a life of their own after a while and even after the original lack which generated them disappears they persist because of what basically amounts to social muscle memory

>> No.13640669

>>13640568
The problem with that is that it's not meta. Materialism itself would therefore be a consequence of its temporary environment. Thinking that it has any sway over any of its alternatives (be they idealism, absurdism or anything else) is akin to a monotheistic standpoint, without any sanctifications or justifications. Hence the naivete and dogmatism of its followers, too.

>> No.13640671

>>13639863
Don't read Hegel, read somebody else on Hegel. You're much more likely to understand Hegelian thought.

>> No.13640676

>>13639863
>is Lenin right?

almost never. read whatever tf you want. Capital is perfectly understandable without Hegel, if anything you should read Smith and Ricardo first.

>> No.13640772
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13640772

>>13639863
Marx was an idiot and his poetry was the only good stuff he ever wrote, and it was like okay, not great.
Read Bakunin, you might actually get something intelligible out of it.

>> No.13640795

>>13640568
The problem there being that it's a post-facto conclusion, not something with any real predictive power. Here we encounter the primary issue of deterministic materialism in general--it's always a retroactive process because the information required to look at a society and divine its future ideological principles does not exist until those principles come into play.

It's easy to look back on history and assign causes to the rise of ideological movements if you operate under the a-priori assumption that they are entirely the product of material conditions, and maybe it's even true, but it discards out of hand human agency and the capricious nature of the human mind and heart, which leads to a naive mechanistic view of the world that is almost always wrong in its projections for the future.

In other words, you're just as well off asking an African witchdoctor for projections of Europe's ideological future as you are asking a Marxist. The witchdoctor probably works for cheaper too.

>> No.13642174

>>13639863
Yes, don't listen to all the other retards ITT
Knowing Hegel is vital to understanding marx's writings

>> No.13642177

>>13640795
>you're just as well off asking an African witchdoctor for projections of Europe's ideological future as you are asking a Marxist.
I'd trust the witch doctors more. I think that spirits are real, even if they can be hostile. The psychedelic concoctions and rituals may give them some profound perspective.

>> No.13642217

>>13639863
>Screeches that religious people should be murdered
>Is too much of a pussy to do it himself, has other do it for them
Why was he such a coward?

>> No.13642435

>>13642174
No, it's only vital to COMPLETELY understanding them.

>>13642217
>Screeches that religious people should be murdered
Who are you talking about?

>> No.13642486

>>13642435
Lenin, of course.

>> No.13642554

>>13642486
>But the campaign against the backwardness of the masses in this matter of religion, must be conducted with patience and considerateness, as well as with energy and perseverance. The credulous crowd is extremely sensitive to anything which hurts its feelings. To thrust atheism upon the masses, and in conjunction therewith to interfere forcibly with religious practices and to make mock of the objects of popular reverence, would not assist but would hinder the campaign against religion.
https://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/11.htm

This was the stance of the Bolshevik party on the question of religion. Do you have anything to back up the claim that Lenin opposed this?

>> No.13642578

>>13642554
>yeah bro we gotta be gentle and soft
>also completely ignore that we brutally murdered them when we got into power
ever occurred to you that Lenin is a two-faced liar?

>> No.13642616

>>13642578
I'm sure a lot of the people they killed in the civil war were religious, especially since there's an overrepresentation of religious people among reactionary shitheads, but that doesn't prove Lenin had set out to murder religious people, much less that he "screeched" that religious people should be murdered.

>> No.13642666

>>13642616
>Orders monasteries destroyed
>Orders churches destroyed/demolished/refitted to public buildings
>thousands of religious figures mysteriously die or are sent to camps in the terror after the war
>"Yeah lenin didnt set out to murder them though"
He most likely did. Lenin is an archetypical politician, in that all his words are only said to the extent that they are useful, and then he has no problem stabbing people in the back later on. He is completely untrustworthy, even by the already deplorable standards of politicians. He even said so while he was still lucid, so it cant be blamed on the syphilis rotting his brain away, either.

>> No.13642743

>>13642666
Can I get sources on all this?

>> No.13642758

>>13639863
test

>> No.13642858

>>13642758
omg why would youdo that

>> No.13643157

>>13642554
>It is essential at the present time to wage with the utmost vigour the war against religious prejudices, for the church has now definitely become a counter-revolutionary organization, and endeavours to use its religious influence over the masses in order to marshal them for the political struggle against the dictatorship of the proletariat. The Orthodox faith which is defended by the priests aims at an alliance with the monarchy. This is why the Soviet Power finds it necessary to engage at this juncture in widespread anti-religious propaganda. Our aims can be secured by the delivery of special lectures, by the holding of debates, and by the publication of suitable literature; also by the general diffusion of scientific knowledge, which slowly but surely undermines the authority of religion. An excellent weapon in the fight with the church was used recently in many parts of the republic when the shrines were opened to show the 'incorruptible' relics. This served to prove to the wide masses of the people, and precisely to those in whom religious faith was strongest, the base trickery upon which religion in general, and the creed of the Russian Orthodox church in particular, are grounded.

Holy based

>> No.13643183
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13643183

>>13643157
>mfw the proletariat never rose up and religion is stronger than ever, even amongst commies

>> No.13643867

>>13640669
Materialism-as-an-ideology is absolutely the product of its temporary environment. However, if the ideology known as materialism - or any other ideology for that matter - happens to articulate anything whatsoever that is objectively true about society then that ideological framework has done just that, discovered a truth, a law of existence. Any ideology can do so. The point is that there are objective truths, that different ideologies can discern, to greater or lesser extents (and in different ways, and so on), depending on the historical circumstances, the theoretical nature of the lens itself (its internal contradictions etc), the talent of its practitioners, and of course sheer chance/randomness.

>> No.13643877

>>13640772
Anarchism gay

>> No.13644267

Start with the greeks OP

>> No.13644285

No but you should absolutely start reading Hegel's shorter Logic.

>> No.13644297

>>13643877
Wiki paraphrasing
“Revolutionary Marxist must choose either to remain Marxist or to remain revolutionary”
—Cornelius Castoriadis

>> No.13644349

>>13644297
>anarchism
>revolution
Pick one

>> No.13644364

>>13640772
his poetry is trashy and edgy emo kid-tier at best

>> No.13644373
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13644373

>>13644349
>believes is political revolution. Though they never work
>scoffs at social revolution. Though he calls himself a socialist

>> No.13644378

>>13644349
Where's the contradiction boi?

>> No.13644422

>>13644373
Praxis beats semantics. I don't care about your oddball revolution-taxonomy, since you have no idea what I believe. Communism's gains dwarf those of anarchism's. It is as simple as that.
>>13644378
There's never been one? That lasted any appreciable length of time, anyway. Ukraine. Crushed. Spain. Crushed. Rojava, under the boots of Turkey and Assad. A pitiful track record.

>> No.13644447

>>13644422
Why are you avoiding the question? Where's the contradiction between anarchism and revolution?

>> No.13644460

>>13644447
You don't seem to be understanding my response. You think anarchism formally announcing its desire for revolution is enough to make it a valid historical force, a typically idealist understanding. I'll attempt to rephrase it though if you want.
Anarchism, while espousing revolutionary aims, has consistently and provably failed in achieving any such gains for the working people it would fight its hypothetical revolution for. This is due to failures of theory and praxis, that, when understood correctly (and by anyone with a bit of common-sense), show anarchism as an often well-meaning, but fundamentally flawed vehicle for historical progress. Better?

>> No.13644483

>>13644460
So actually creating anarchist communes is just a formal announciation, got it. Also nice progress meme, how is that anglocentric point of view going?

>> No.13644508

>>13644483
>Creating anarchist communes
Mate, this is nowhere near enough to be considered substantial gains, for the very reasons you allude to in your little 'progress' sneer. Or is it problematic to assume that history progresses now? I assume you're mature enough to divorce the term 'progress' from any moral prescription? How can you sit there and smugly bleat about a tiny number of isolated and ineffective communes when ypou know we face the issues we do? By wiping away every other type of gain as evil authoritarian red fascist queerbitransfolxphobic not true socialism etc etc etc no doubt.

>> No.13644510

>>13639863
You don't have to understand Hegel completely, try to get the main ideas just to get where Marx comes from.
Also fuck Hegel

>> No.13644523

>>13644510
Cringe. You are going to lose social credit points because of this post, anon.

>> No.13644559

>>13644508
Then explain kindly, how is Marxism a better vehicle for transformation, considering the various failures of Marxist-derived revolutions? I am not saying they were completely bad, there's plenty of lessons from each one.
If the gains given by small communes remain and the gains conquered by far bigger movements get wiped away after some time, what should we do and which way should we proceed? There's plenty of both theory and most importantly praxis in anarcho-communism, why do you say they're not valid when they demonstrate their validity day after day, even in small communities?

>> No.13644588

>>13639863

Philosophy is 100% idealism. Any practical knowledge used in this discipline comes from some other, more worthy field of study. It's a complete waste of your time.

>> No.13644616

>>13644559
There's several ongoing Marxist states, revolutions, and movements of historically significant size. China, Cuba, Vietnam India, Brazil, Philippines, Nepal. Etc etc. So the gains 'conquered by large movements' don't necessarily 'get wiped away', though it certainly can happen, like in the USSR. But if the USSR couldn't survive the onslaught why will my local ancom collective? The validity of ancom will be proven when it advances world-history, i.e. does something large enough to actually look larger than a blip when viewed historically. Validity is not derived from making a commune in the woods, or even a thousand, or a thousand cooperative bookshops for that matter, fine enough as those things both are. Ten thousand 'small communes' won't be enough to tackle climate catastrophe. They can't defend themselves militarily. They don't advance world-history. Mass movements consolidating state power and embarking on large (global) scale coordinated socialist construction does.

>> No.13644647
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13644647

>>13644616
>There's several ongoing Marxist states, revolutions, and movements of historically significant size. China, Cuba, Vietnam India, Brazil, Philippines, Nepal.

>> No.13644660

>>13644647
wtf I'm a tradcath now

>> No.13644682

>>13644660
Seriously though, all those are either capitalist states, fascist states, or failed shitholes.

>> No.13644697

Lenin failed to understand Hegel.

>> No.13644704

>>13644682
>all those are either capitalist states, fascist states, or Marxist states
Where's the contradiction?

>> No.13644719

>>13644682
Called it lmao. Read Heiko Khoo for a better understanding of the China Model. He's a Trot so it's not totally one-sided, in fact he's highly critical of China, he lived there during Tienanmen apparently. But China is indeed socialist, though of a fairly unique kind. Lived in E Germany as well actually, Stasi had files on him if he's to be believed. The rest of your post is simply evidence of your opposition to the kind of authoritarianism we'll sadly need if we're to actually accomplish anything, so whatever. Suffice to say the Catalonians (the best attempt you've ever managed) had cause for all the same 'fascist' practices you're so against. Anyway here's a link to Khoo's huge ass article going into it all in detail.
http://chinareporting.blogspot.com/

>> No.13644724

>>13643867
Sounds like instrumentalism. I'll take an actually apodictic analysis instead, thanks.

>> No.13644743

>>13644724
Do you think there are independent objects in the world that have laws that we can verify? That's all my assertion really boils down to, to me. I'm no philosopher though, so suit yourself.

>> No.13644762

>>13644422
>since you have no idea what I believe
I can say the same of you to me.

>There's never been one
>Communism's gains
Are nonexistent. Yours is a breed of social-democracy. Authoritarian progressivism. “Scientific socialism” is a hoax

>> No.13644814

>>13644762
I've seen enough of your posts. You do remember you are in fact a tripfag? Not the first time we've made the same tired points at each other either.
>Even the anarchist historian Volin, who was a political advisor to Makhno, states that there were no more than a few hundred families involved in the Makhnovist communes.24 Makhno in his memoirs admits that “the mass of people did not go over” to the free communal order;25 while even the strongly pro-Makhno anarchist Alexander Skirda acknowledges: “The idyllic dream of ‘cooperative enterprise’ was to dissolve in discord and bitterness, or even in ‘dismal despair,’ with commune workers quitting one after another.”26
>As the war dragged on, Makhno was increasingly unaccountable to his peasant followers. Volin, one of the leaders of the Makhnovists, explained that there developed a kind of military clique or camarilla about Makhno. This clique sometimes made decisions and committed acts without taking account of the Council or of other institutions. It lost its sense of proportion, showed contempt towards all those who were outside it, and detached itself more and more from the mass of the combatants and the working population.51
>Volin acknowledges that one of the reasons for the increasing authoritarianism of the Makhnovist army was “the lack of a vigorous and organised workers’ movement to support the insurrection”.54 The reality was that – as even Makhno’s closest supporter, the anarchist Arshinov, admits – considerable sections of the working class remained loyal to the Bolsheviks: “the difference between the Communists and Wrangel was that the Communists had the support of the masses with faith in the revolution”.55 There are numerous horror stories about the behaviour of partisan commanders. The most gross concern their treatment of women, who as Volin admits were compelled to have sex with Makhnovist commanders during drunken debaucheries.56
>The Makhnovists established their own internal security forces, the Kontrrazvedka and the Punitive Commission. They were a law unto themselves, accountable only to Makhno personally. In one case in Ekaterinoslav, “a trade union delegation that went to complain about the arrest of a woman cultural activist was told that the workers’ place was in the factory, and that they would interfere with the work of the Kontrrazvedka at their peril”.60 The Kontrrazvedka was responsible for numerous killings and the torture of opponents, whether they be White agents, Communists, Left Social Revolutionaries or Ukrainian nationalists. Even one of the Makhnovist leaders, Volin, subsequently admitted that at the Olexandrivske Makhnovist Congress delegates complained of “arbitrary and uncontrolled actions, of which some are very serious, rather like the Bolshevik. Searches, arrests, even torture and executions are reported.”61
https://marxistleftreview.org/articles/nestor-makhno-the-failure-of-anarchism/

>> No.13644821

>>13644762
Think I'll take the flawed but actually existing gains of multiple spacefaring, nuclear superpowers, the largest poverty reduction in human history, huge strides in planned economy and workplace democracy, and millions freed from imperialism and colonialism, thanks.

>> No.13644828

>>13644814
This isn’t even a point to do with what we’re talking about. This is your faulty reasoning for ignoring social socialism/libertarian-socialism

>> No.13644834

>>13644821
Yes yes, state centralized capitalism can industrialize the most backwards of countries into spacefaring nuclear powers. I acknowledge this. But I’m afraid we’re fast running out of time for this phase of Lenin’s project. And the suggestions coming from your camp, if ever given, are rather weak. Tick tok tik tok

>> No.13644840

>>13644828
It's somewhat related but I more bring it up as you didn't reply whenever it was I last spoke to you and quoted this article compiling Voline's own discussion of Makhno's failures. So I thought I'd do it again. Given there's so little to discuss when gauging anarchism's record.

>> No.13644846

>>13644834
>ecology
Oh the irony.
https://singularityhub.com/2019/04/22/chinas-electric-buses-save-more-diesel-than-all-electric-cars-combined/
>Today, there are reportedly close to 400,000 electric buses in operation, 99 percent of them in China.

>> No.13644851

>>13644840
>there's so little to discuss when gauging anarchism's record.
Oh, yes. Thank you Franco. Thank you MLists of Madrid for that

>> No.13644854

>>13644834
I'll link you the same Khoo article I did the other anon, more research into China can't hurt any of us. The basic point is that the Chinese state, for a series of ideological and also self-serving reasons (no one's naive here), see fit to maintain the set of core, socialist, planned sectors of the economy in China, to maintain growth, at the expense of suppressing the market sectors.
http://chinareporting.blogspot.com/

>> No.13644877

>>13644851
>anarchism would be great if the fascists let us do it!
Jesus. Also let's assume I take the most charitable position and agree that ML's deliberately and maliciously sabotaged a nascent Spanish revolution, which I don't: So? Makhnovites attacked Bolsheviks repeatedly, they still won. You need to actually win to do anything. Tick Tock, as you say.

>> No.13644897

>>13644854
>2008
Thank’s but it’s a little long and a little old. What’s the gist of it?

>>13644877
>sabotaged
They slaughtered 200+ Socialists on the verge of a fascist invasion. Enough of your hokey religion. Buzz off.

>> No.13644905

>>13640676
What was Lenin wrong about?

>> No.13644914
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13644914

>>13640772
>anarchists recommend reading bakunin over Marx
>thinks his gay edgy 14 Year Old tier poetry is better than his philosophy
Checks out

>> No.13644919

>>13643183
>religion is stronger than ever, even amongst commies
This is empirically untrue, religion is less popular pound for pound then it has ever been. There's a whole generation in Iceland about to come up who are almost universally nonreligious and church attendance is down in almost all Western nations

>> No.13644936

>>13644897
I already explained:
>The basic point is that the Chinese state, for a series of ideological and also self-serving reasons (no one's naive here), see fit to maintain the set of core, socialist, planned sectors of the economy in China, to maintain growth, at the expense of suppressing the market sectors.
I link it despite the age because it's gotten more true, not less, since Xi's ascension and subsequent swing towards SOE's etc etc
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2166261/chinese-president-xi-jinpings-show-support-state-owned-firms
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2163927/trade-war-escalates-china-intensifies-role-state-owned
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover-Story/Xi-doctrine-comes-before-profit-for-China-s-state-owned-companies
https://www.ft.com/content/c7c720a4-1ad4-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6

>The Kontrrazvedka was responsible for numerous killings and the torture of opponents, whether they be White agents, Communists, Left Social Revolutionaries or Ukrainian nationalists. Even one of the Makhnovist leaders, Volin, subsequently admitted that at the Olexandrivske Makhnovist Congress delegates complained of “arbitrary and uncontrolled actions, of which some are very serious, rather like the Bolshevik. Searches, arrests, even torture and executions are reported.”61

>> No.13644985

>>13644919
I agree with your point completely but citing Iceland lmao, cmon. All 50 of them have stopped going to Church? Impressive

>> No.13645207

>>13640568
Pretty good explanation of Marx's concept of materialism.