/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13420494]

Forget Emily Wilson being a woman. This isnt about that, but her veiled political commentary she has put into the odyssey which was not there in the first place nor in any other translations.

That, and boasting on twitter as if SHE'S the fucking author of the odyssey is just shameful. I want to enjoy her odyssey for its ease and rapidity, but with things like this i feel mistrust for the translator who is supoosed to guide me through homer.

[Anonymous No.13420499]

This is the Fagles rendering, for example

[Anonymous No.13420514]

I'm indifferent towards feminist shit enough that I don't complain about it online but holy shit lmfao this is a bad look Emily.

[Anonymous No.13420515]

>>13420499
Cringe

[Anonymous No.13420536]

>>13420494
>>13420499
y i k e s

emily wilson deserves a tongue lashing tbhwy

[Anonymous No.13420547]

I don't mind someone having an extreme ideology or an open political slant, I think what's so offensive about neoliberal shit is that it's pablum, it's ubiquitous and status quo, and it has that finger-wagging "You'd better agree with this! You agree with this, right? You'd better! You're a good person, aren't you? Don't you want to be accepted by the community?" puritan streak in it.

If some guy came up to me and said "DISSOLVE ALL BORDERS, THE WORLD MUST DESCEND INTO ONE UNIVERSAL REICHIAN ORGY, LET THE ORGONS FLOW AND CREATE THE UNIVERSAL WORLD BABY SO THAT THERE MAY BE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST" I'd be like wow alright, that's a pretty extreme viewpoint but at least you're pretty open about it. It's when they do that carping, effeminate enforcement of completely status quo opinions that I get creeped out. What kind of person enthusiastically takes up the cause of the status quo INSOFAR AS it's the status quo? Women apparently.

[Anonymous No.13420558]

>>13420494
"Translator is a traitor."

Thanks for the heads up, I will avoid her work like the plague, and advise others to do the same.

[Anonymous No.13420565]

The goddess, bright-eyed Athene answered: ‘Sir stranger, I will show you the place you ask for, since Alcinous lives near my good father’s house. Only walk quietly, and I will lead the way: look at nobody and ask no questions, for these people are intolerant of strangers, and do not welcome people from abroad. Trusting to their fast ships, they cross the wide gulfs of sea, and Poseidon allows it: and these ships are as quick as a bird in flight, or a thought.’

Translated by A. S. Kline

[Anonymous No.13420581]

>>13420547
Yeah well youll get nowhere just blaming women because youll look like and be branded as an incel. One should rather take up the issue of the off-puttingness of having to agree with feminism to an extreme, such as "women are better than men", just as women are put off by having to agree with patriarchal extremes, such as "men are better than women".

It creates nothing but bitterness.

[Anonymous No.13420584]

Then Athene said, "Yes, father stranger, I will show you the house you want, for Alcinous lives quite close to my own father. I will go before you and show the way, but say not a word as you go, and do not look at any man, nor ask him questions; for the people here cannot abide strangers, and do not like men who come from some other place. They are a sea-faring folk, and sail the seas by the grace of Poseidon in ships that glide along like thought, or as a bird in the air.

Translator: Samuel Butler

[Anonymous No.13420585]

>>13420547
>REICHIAN ORGY
though this said reichan orgy

[Anonymous No.13420590]

>>13420585
*thought

[Anonymous No.13420592]

>>13420585
objectively worst girl

[Anonymous No.13420593]

>>13420581
I don't blame women, I blame a society that lets their worst behaviors run amok. Women are herdthinking faggots who unconsciously enjoy enforcing social cohesion because it raises their status in the tribe. That's fine if we're talking about a knitting circle, and the dykes and other women who don't fit in are allowed to leave the circle. I don't want to live in Knitting Circle One (Formerly "Western Civilization").

[Anonymous No.13420601]

>>13420584
that's beautiful, it makes me lol that emily wilson actually wrote:

>They know their ships go very fast.

[Anonymous No.13420602]

>>13420494
even if it were accurate, that writing is ass

Someone post Fitzgerald's, I need it to wash Wilson out of my mind.

[Anonymous No.13420605]

>>13420593
Yes you just blamed women. You generalize women as much as these feminists offensively generalize men and youve made yourself look like am edgy incel

[Anonymous No.13420612]

>>13420601
Don't be racist, over half of the UK's young reading population now has English as a second language! Don't you want this literature to be accessible to them?

[Anonymous No.13420614]

>>13420494
you guys are fucking pussies.
1. it's only political if you're looking for it
2. she's right
3. it flows with the text and the only reason any idiot would make note of it is if morons like you have big diaper meltdowns about it

[Anonymous No.13420617]

i think poseidon allowing the Phaeacians to travel is important,they also have a prophecy concerning a stranger also poseidon sinks the ship that brought odysseus home

[Anonymous No.13420622]

>>13420605
Are you a woman or what? Your nancyish pussyboy aversion to criticism and "generalization," and your effeminate resort to "ooh you aren't going to be very popular, if you continue to think that" to coerce me into abandoning my beliefs, makes me think you're either a woman or someone on a lot of female hormones. You know, because female hormones cause effeminate behavior like yours, generally speaking.

[Anonymous No.13420623]

>>13420614
"you're a poo poo doody face"

[Anonymous No.13420636]

>>13420494
>>13420623
>completely innocuous statement about travel in an epic titled "the odyssey"
>whiny "red-pilled" diaper babies on 4chan

[Anonymous No.13420637]

>>13420494
Yo tourist! I'll get you there. That shit be right by my pop's crib. But put on this blindfold and ball gag because my bros don't like you outsiders. Aww damn look at that corvette - all tuned up and ready to race the gods.

[Anonymous No.13420638]

>>13420614
>its only political if you're looking for it

its all political so you can't miss it even if you wanted to, you absolute retard

[Anonymous No.13420662]

>>13420602
The point of Emily's translation is its smoothness and rapidity, avoiding purple prose for a more accessible yet not freely interpretive Homer.
She's the first succesful at doing this since Rieu back in the 40s.

She has actually been quite vehement about how it's not such a big deal that she's the first woman to translate the Odyssey and that people should not focus on it, as there have been women translators of the iliad, who differ from each other as much as the men who have translated Homer, meaning she should be judged by her work and not the fact that she is a woman, where she has had issues with earlier translations which she felt were too free in adding and interpreting things that arent there in the greek. A.ka, the ideal attitude of a translator.

However, as it turns out she also interprets Homer as she pleases and adds political tone that isnt supposes to be there. Which is all fine, she can do what she wants with her translation, her odyssey is very readable and has a very good rythm, akin to Rieu's excellent work, but her faults must also be noted and her translation should not, as she herself said, be praised because of her gender.

Caroline Alexander published her own Iliad translation in 2015, which is just as wordy as say, fagles, fitzgerald, peter green etc. There is no likeness between it and Emily Wilsons Odyssey.

As such, it should be judged on its own. It has many merits and its many faults, but everyone, the praisers and the haters, are obsessed with focusing on her gender, imstead of judging it on its own.

[Anonymous No.13420667]

>>13420617
“Ah, it is my father’s prophecy of long ago, returned in truth to haunt us. He said that Poseidon was angry with us because we transported strangers in safety, and that one day he would strike one of our fine ships as she returned from her voyage over the misty deep, and he would ring our city with a vast mountain chain. So my aged father said, and now it has all come true.

this prophecy

[Anonymous No.13420672]

>>13420622
I was trying to help your opinion get noticed and respected instead of being drowned among the cesspool of women-bashing, you retard.

[Anonymous No.13420676]

>>13420494
This is an attempt at social engineering disguised as translation. Damned establishment!

[Anonymous No.13420679]

>>13420667
so in this passage we have them previously speeding travelers onwards,so wilsons comparison is false because the phoenicians dont go and live abroad

[Anonymous No.13420680]

>>13420636
>dumb cunt egregiously mistranslates something in a classical text to echo her shallow political bias
>diaper diaper yikescringe oofdiapers on 4chan: "that's not good"
>"FUCK YOU BLUMPFKINS, I'M VOTING BIDEN"

don't post again until your menses comes to an end

[Anonymous No.13420691]

>>13420662
I do not care what her sex is, I do not like these weaselly attempts to inject propaganda into the translation. I would be just as angry if it was a man doing it.

[Anonymous No.13420714]

>>13420676
If we can try to not be ironicall, im nit blaming the establishment, im blaming wilson. Im not against thls Odyssey being read in schools etc because it tells the story and its very understandable/readable. I am mostly annoyed at her attitude as if its her work instead of Homer, or whoever actually wrote it.

This "although they like to cross the sea themselves" is likely to get a chuckle out of many people reading this Odyssey, just as people chuckle at Pope's Homer when he adds witticisms. However, just as in the case of Pope - verbatim with the criticism he faced in his own day - its not Homer. Theodor Kallifatides recently published his own rendering of the Iliad, which he worked into an autobiohraphical account of hearong the story by his teacher as a kid. Its a good read, good Iliad retelling, but to call it Homer would be false.

However perhaps it should be noted that Wilsons Odyssey IS more of a direct translation than those of Pope or Kallifatides, so therefore it should be criticised where she here and there inserts things into the greek which arent there if she's going to call it a translation of Homer.

[Anonymous No.13420716]

τὸν δ᾽ αὖτε προσέειπε θεά, γλαυkῶπις Ἀθήνη:
‘τοιγὰρ ἐγώ τοι, ξεῖνε πάτερ, δόμον, ὅν με kελεύεις,
δείξω, ἐπεί μοι πατρὸς ἀμύμονος ἐγγύθι ναίει.
ἀλλ᾽ ἴθι σιγῇ τοῖον, ἐγὼ δ᾽ ὁδὸν ἡγεμονεύσω,
μηδέ τιν᾽ ἀνθρώπων προτιόσσεο μηδ᾽ ἐρέεινε.
οὐ γὰρ ξείνους οἵδε μάλ᾽ ἀνθρώπους ἀνέχονται,
οὐδ᾽ ἀγαπαζόμενοι φιλέουσ᾽ ὅς k᾽ ἄλλοθεν ἔλθῃ.
νηυσὶ θοῇσιν τοί γε πεποιθότες ὠkείῃσι
λαῖτμα μέγ᾽ ἐkπερόωσιν, ἐπεί σφισι δῶk᾽ ἐνοσίχθων:
τῶν νέες ὠkεῖαι ὡς εἰ πτερὸν ἠὲ νόημα.

here it is in the greek

[Anonymous No.13420717]

>>13420636
>>completely innocuous

[Anonymous No.13420718]

[Anonymous No.13420724]

>>13420714
Ironical* lol

>>13420691
Yeah me too, which is the correct attitude clearly. It's a shame you cant say that without having to worry about it being deliberately intepreted as sexist, which is going to happen if people are gonna keep saying Emily's Homer is so vastly different just because shes a woman, even though she's going with the Rieu way of translating. I will repeat that point until it becomes common knowledge.

[Anonymous No.13420732]

>>13420614
It's trash and there are several other translations in this thread that show it is a mistranslation.

[Anonymous No.13420742]

Don't look at anyone or ask any questions.
The people here aren't very tolerant of strangers
Or very welcoming. All they trust are their ships,
In which they cross the great ocean, because
Poseidon lets them. Their ships are very fast,
Fast as a flying bird, or even a thought.

Translated by Stanley Lombardo

[Anonymous No.13420748]

>>13420614
>She's right
Nibba how is she right? In what?

Also your exaggerating the reaction. It's just annoyance at adding shit, just like its annoying inLombardo's Iliad when Hector says to Ajax "Come closer, sweetheart" during the battle when almost all translation go "Come closer, madman" but in Emily's case it sounds like that anti-anti-immigrants propaganda which is very vogue.

[Anonymous No.13420751]

[Anonymous No.13420754]

>>13420751
lmao

[Anonymous No.13420760]

>>13420742
in the first line of lombardos iliad he leaves out Πηληϊάδεω son of peleus,it is the first name mentioned in a book that is a quarter names and he skips it

[Anonymous No.13420777]

>>13420760
criticizing lombardo's translations is fair enough but i think the point here is that literally no rendering of this particular passage agrees with wilson's version

[Anonymous No.13420779]

[Anonymous No.13420783]

>>13420760
Lombardos translation is weird and arachonistic. A gritty and dark rendition of Homer thats very unlike pther translations and thus feels unlike Homer.

[Anonymous No.13420897]

>>13420662
>are obsessed with focusing on her gender
>Caroline Alexander published her own Iliad translation in 2015, which is just as wordy as say, fagles, fitzgerald, peter green etc. There is no likeness between it and Emily Wilsons Odyssey.
I didn't say anything about gender.

[Anonymous No.13420955]

Wow. I will never read her stuff.

[Anonymous No.13420958]

>>13420614
see >>13420751

[Anonymous No.13421003]

>>13420547
women have always been like this, it's their role in society. They virtue signal and act like volunteer stasi in every culture, although in the West it is quite bad in many ways because the women who suffer the most from this vice are rewarded and systematically uplifted. As long as they are doing what the jewish bourgeoisie wants, they will be rewarded

[Anonymous No.13421035]

I thought the bitch was dead and buried after this

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/homer-for-scalawags-emily-wilsons-odyssey/#!

>Epic blank verse is making a comeback recently, and to her credit Wilson knows how to craft her lines in the most flexible way, including a number of those ridiculously named “feminine” endings (an unstressed 11th syllable — this is only shocking if your notion of iambic pentameter comes from Pope and not Shakespeare, whose “To Be or Not to Be” starts with five 11-syllable lines in a row). But while her verse is traditional and flexible, her syntax is so clipped and terse at times she seems to be channeling Hemingway. Her sense of poetic diction is so austerely modern it’s as though she has jettisoned all the frippery from Homer’s argosy, paring it down to the frame. Perhaps it’s just as well — Odysseus only needed a raft to set out for Ithaca.

>The result pitches between the ancient and modern as any translation must if it chooses to pursue the vitality of storytelling over the archeology of poetic form. Translating epic is, after all, a marathon, not a sprint; you have to be careful what you grab onto. Wilson’s verse may be traditional, but it contains an interesting variety of modern conveniences. Canapés and kebabs are now being served aboard Homer. Odysseus is a “scalawag.” Demeter has “cornrows in her hair” — anachronistically, if the metaphor is based on new-world maize; ironically, whwe think she is an agricultural goddess.

[Anonymous No.13421047]

>Wilson shows humane concern about the status of slave women, though we might quibble that calling female slaves “girls” may not be not as enlightened as she thinks (to Homer they are women), nor is the suggestion that their escapades with Penelope’s suitors were things those men “made them do.” No one seems to believe this in the poem, including the other slaves, and Wilson has chucked the option of class rebellion in favor of a protective if bougie instinct to save their reputations. There’s a thread of philological justification for this, and she is right to tweet out no one actually refers to them as sluts and whores in Homer. But that strong language of past translations was focalized through Telemachus and Odysseus, not the narrator. The brutality of the women’s execution by mass hanging — sadly, perhaps the only thing Telemachus thinks up on his own — still speaks for itself: uppity slaves get lynched.

[Anonymous No.13421053]

>>13420897
It wasnt an attack on you, its about how shes been recieved generally by critics

[Anonymous No.13421108]

>>13420547
For me it's the intellectual dishonesty. Lying about how they know what they're talking about because they have statistics (which don't prove what they're pretending they do). They're not really arguing that it's inconceivable there's any reason but discrimination that fewer women/minorities (asians don't count) are in stem. They're just declaring that while daring anyone to point out politically incorrect alternative reasons.

>>13420581
>because youll look like and be branded as an incel
oh no

[Anonymous No.13421149]

>>13421108
Fine then, your opinion will be margibalised and disregarded and youll end up in a circle jerk with other actual incels and other people who are too dumb to realise how to get your ideas listened to

[Anonymous No.13421179]

I've looked at the Greek, and this is really a fine translation. You're overreacting and over-reading; maybe do some self-examination and see if you can determine why that might be.

[Anonymous No.13421196]

>>13421149
>your opinion will be marginalized and disregarded
it was always going to be. there are more lying feminists than there are mes. the only thing to do is watch them eat themselves while waiting for less feminized cultures to btfo them

>incels
that doesn't mean anything. it's just the latest word to mock outsiders and conflate them with badthinkers. your fixation on social approval and your delusional belief that society will believe truth if you just try to convince them in the right way are pretty telling though. i agree with the other guy, you sound female

[Anonymous No.13421205]

>>13421179
Can you post a word for word translation then?

[Anonymous No.13421208]

>>13420614
In an interview she explicitly stated she disagreed politically with Homer and made little jabs like this at him throughout her translation. She thinks the Cyclops being a monster is an example of racist "colonial attitudes" rather than an actual fucking mythological monster.

[Anonymous No.13421217]

>>13420494
>>13420499
What veiled political commentary? It's the same fucking passage but with a much simpler prose. In fact, if you're going to shit on the translator, it should be for turning the Odyssey into an elementary school text.

[Anonymous No.13421228]

>>13421196
>incels
>that doesn't mean anything. it's just the latest word to mock outsiders and conflate them with badthinkers.

Exactly you idiot. Also "you sound female" because i dont whine about women? Idgaf if i "sound female", but then thats all youre focusing on regarding emily wilson in that case instead of judging the translation as it stands.

[Anonymous No.13421234]

>>13421217
If you can't pick up on the clear difference in nuanced meaning between hers and the other examples in this thread that all seemed to express nearly identical sentiments, you're just not very good at reading critically. She literally said herself that she agrees it was an intentional nose-thumbing at immigration discourse: >>13420751

[Anonymous No.13421235]

>>13421217
See >>13420751

[Anonymous No.13421243]

>>13421205
I could, but it would be useless unless you understand a little bit about how Greek works (i.e., the words would seem out of order, you wouldn't be able to distinguish subject from object, etc.). It's better just to read multiple translations if you can't read the original.
I really don't think there's a political message here, though, and all the parallel translations that have been offered give the same sense that Wilson gives.

[Anonymous No.13421245]

Can somebody post the part where she translates the name of a dish as kebab?

[Anonymous No.13421248]

>>13421243
Again >>13420751

[Anonymous No.13421251]

>>13420494

Women have far too much freedom in this society.

[Anonymous No.13421255]

>>13420494
>Mr. Foreigner
That shit is worse than the part framed with pencil. Why would you put "Mr." in a greek epic, holy fuck

[Anonymous No.13421257]

>>13421243
Also, even if its useless it could be informative of how ancient greek works. Post it, amigo!

[Anonymous No.13421262]

>>13421255
Because its english. Almlst all languages have a different "mister"
Señor, Monsieur, Herr etc. with their abreviations, so its fine

[Anonymous No.13421266]

>>13420536
I'm prepared to do my part by giving this mommy's every crevice a thorough lashing with my tongue but also penis

[Anonymous No.13421271]

>>13421228
>thats all youre focusing on
No it isn't. My first post where I laid out my opinion didn't say anything about female nature. Most of op and the post you first responded to weren't about gender either. A negative aside about women just seems to be the part of those posts you primarily care about.

[Anonymous No.13421272]

>>13421217
She equates seafaring with migration to make an infantile discursive point at the expense of the text, because she’s a left wing narcissist with no higher commitment than her political fashion statements. She doesn’t understand that seafaring is quite different to an impulse to journey to other lands - it’s a decision in favour of water as an elemental grand possibility of human existence over and above the land, per Schmitt.

[Anonymous No.13421291]

>>13421234
>>13421235
>>13420751
>>13421248
Except that means nothing. She's not the author, she's just a translator, all she did was take a passage and simplify it like the rest of the text. You can make the same point about xenophobia by quoting the older translations.

[Anonymous No.13421296]

>>13420751

[Anonymous No.13421306]

>>13421272
No she doesn't. You're just reading the text through your ideological lenses.

[Anonymous No.13421321]

>>13421306
Are you not a native English speaker? When you say “x doesn’t like this thing ALTHOUGH they do this other thing THEMSELVES” it’s to equate the two things.

[Anonymous No.13421365]

>>13421291
There is a noticeable difference between her translation's subtly mocking tone and all of the others posted that implies a xenophobia the others do not.
You're right that a translator shouldn't do this kind of intentional insertion of meaning the author didn't originally have, but she did. This means she is a bad translator.
If you're still going to pretend you don't understand what anyone's talking about, expect no more (You)s from me.

[Anonymous No.13421372]

>>13421365
They all imply xenophobia you dumbfuck. She just makes it more explicit.

[Anonymous No.13421379]

bumping an interesting thread that's ultimately about translation and linguistics and power

[Anonymous No.13421382]

>>13421372
they all imply xenophobia, only emily implies they're hypocrites for it because they have ships

[Anonymous No.13421387]

>>13421382
>Moving the goalposts

[Anonymous No.13421396]

>>13421387
>replying to two different posters

[Anonymous No.13422641]

its because of poseidon that the Phaeacians have a great navy,and them letting strangers on ship is against earth shakers Arete that he extends to the Phaeacians >>13420584
>>13420617

[Anonymous No.13422678]

>>13421179
If it's a fine translation, why is there not a single other translation that contains this nuance? Did they all miss it?

[Anonymous No.13422687]

>>13422678
you're responding to a shitposter

[Anonymous No.13422693]

>arguing about translations

[Anonymous No.13422709]

>>13421205

OD.7.27 [48[49[50τὸν δ' αὖτε47] [51προσέειπε46]50] [52θεά [53γλαυkῶπις Ἀθήνη:49]51]52]53]
OD.7.27 Bright-eyed goddess Athena said back to him:

OD.7.28 [54τοιγὰρ ἐγώ [55[56τοι,48] [57ξεῖνε54] πάτερ,56]57] δόμον, ὅν με kελεύεις,55]
OD.7.28 "So then, father stranger, the house you bid me

OD.7.29 δείξω, ἐπεί μοι πατρὸς ἀμύμονος [58ἐγγύθι ναίει.58]
OD.7.29 I'll show you, since he lives close by my noble father.

OD.7.30 ἀλλ' [59ἴθι [60σιγῇ59] τοῖον,60] [61ἐγὼ δ' [62ὁδὸν ἡγεμονεύσω,61]62]
OD.7.30 But go in total silence, and I'll lead the way,

[Anonymous No.13422710]

>>13420718
Having less concern for men is natural and won't change.

[Anonymous No.13422715]

>>13422709
OD.7.31 μηδέ τιν' ἀνθρώπων [6προτιόσσεο [7μηδ' ἐρέεινε.6]7]
OD.7.31 and neither look at nor question any person,

OD.7.32 οὐ γὰρ ξείνους οἵ γε μάλ' [8ἀνθρώπους ἀνέχονται,8]
OD.7.32 for they do not gladly suffer stranger men

OD.7.33 οὐδ' ἀγαπαζόμενοι φιλέουσ' ὅς k' ἄλλοθεν ἔλθῃ.
OD.7.33 nor hospitably welcome one who comes from elsewhere.

OD.7.34 [9[10νηυσὶ θοῇσιν10] τοί9] γε πεποιθότες ὠkείῃσι
OD.7.34 With confidence in their swift fleet ships,

OD.7.35 λαῖτμα μέγ' ἐkπερόωσιν, ἐπεί σφισι δῶk' ἐνοσίχθων:
OD.7.35 they traverse the great gulf, since the earth-shaker gave it to them.

OD.7.36 τῶν νέες ὠkεῖαι ὡς εἰ πτερὸν ἠὲ νόημα.
OD.7.36 Their ships are fleet as feather or thought

[Anonymous No.13422718]

>>13422693
what's wrong with that?
it bothers me that a translator deliberately renders a passage in a way that makes a political statement which is not contained in the original text
whether or not i can just read the greek original instead has no bearing on this

[Anonymous No.13422721]

>>13422718
What's wrong with that?

[Anonymous No.13422735]

>>13420494
This Alinskyite camel's nose is about as subtle as a wild Bactrian. Awkward, cumbersome, "not too keen" is so obnoxiously idiomatic to our modern period, being I believe a Britishism, that I am gobsmacked out of any sense of the ancient world. Why don't they talk about a chippy and bog roll too? Is Emily Wilson going to show us how Helen of Troy should have gone to Hogwarts?
So much of ancient literature has this "close to the metal" brevity, like the speech of an exhausted elder warrior whose a bit irritated to be regaling all this again but is also inebriated enough to power through. There's a no bullshit type honesty and frankness that you would tell to those in your family, clan and tribe. Its nearly like how you'd speak to your offspring about how everything works, no sugar-coating, no non-sense. This will bite you. Don't ever eat this. Don't trust these people.
But some of these effete and aloof classist types likely wake in flop sweats at the thought of someone in the hinterlands doing anything unaligned to the Bildebergian projects or their philanthropic hedges. I'm intrigued to read more of this work to see what other elitist pollution the author adds. The deep self-satisfaction and witless imperiousness cannot disguise what is plainly a commercial exercise in building out a lucrative subgenre of cleverly marketed books.

[Anonymous No.13422738]

>>13422721
because the point of translation is to relay the original text as faithfully as possible in a different language, if you want to change aspects of the story you should write your own poem, then you can make all the political statements you want

[Anonymous No.13422744]

>>13422738
>because the point of translation is to relay the original text as faithfully as possible in a different language

There are different interpretations on what 'faithfully as possible' means. Ironically in itself a translation

[Anonymous No.13422755]

>>13422744
it certainly doesn't mean to make a statement that's not even alluded to in the original

[Anonymous No.13422777]

>>13422755
Well they do like to cross the sea themselves. Being 'faithful as possible' also means enhancing the story in a way that word-for-word translation doesn't reach. Would you rather she put it in square brackets? In a footnote? A separate companion text? It is certainly not major enough to warrant being called a 'aspect of the story' -- it is a rather throwaway line.

In the end you buy different translations for different reasons. Word-for-word, performative, prose, political, etc. Context is also important and there will never be a perfect translation.

[Anonymous No.13422785]

Just shut up, let me do what i want, stop complaing, it's not a big deal why do you even care?

[Anonymous No.13422811]

>>13422777
The existence of different good translations doesnt make this particular one good, she should be critcized for it

[Anonymous No.13422815]

>maverick

[Anonymous No.13422819]

>>13422811
Ok? And people will respond to the criticism which is what I thought this discussion was supposed to be about right now?

[Anonymous No.13422820]

>>13422777
Look man, in the original the statement is neutral and valueless. She describes them as being a people that doesn't like strangers and travels at sea. There's no judgement here.
In Wilson's version they are put in direct contrast. They don't like foreigners, AND YET they cross the sea themselves. Wilsons' Athene paints them as hypocrites, but she literally made that up herself, no such implication in the text. It has nothing to do with being faithful.

>In the end you buy different translations for different reasons. Word-for-word, performative, prose, political, etc.
I have no problem if someone sets out to do a translation of a work in which they fit as many of their political convictions as possible. But then they should openly say so, and make no claim to literary scholarship.

>>13422785
Because I think it's an interesting topic of discussion, if you believe otherwise you may choose to close the tab.

[Anonymous No.13422839]

>>13422819
You didnt respond to the criticism, you just spouted a platitude about the multiplicity of translation philosophies to distract from the obvious point the anon was making, that she inserted something for petty political reasons, and this makes her entire translation suspect, though someone would have to go through checking the entire thing, and who could give a shit.

[Anonymous No.13422851]

I am willing to bet that none of the people who always post about "muh translations of the Classics" on this board actually speak a single ancient language.

[Anonymous No.13422853]

>>13420494
Which canto? I can compare with my version here. It was translated by a really old greek scholar who couldn't care less about politics.

[Anonymous No.13422880]

>>13422820
She is open about it though, and her point as I believe is to demonstrate that translations of the past did what you claim Wilson is doing -- fitting in certain convictions and claiming literary scholarship.

[Anonymous No.13422884]

>>13422839
>You didnt respond to the criticism, you just spouted a platitude

Bad translation yourself, inserting something into the text. Your whole text is suspect

[Anonymous No.13422922]

>>13421003
>women have always been like this, it's their role in society. They virtue signal and act like volunteer stasi in every culture
For example, in Muslim societies, it's often the women that are the biggest proponents of things like honor killing.

[Anonymous No.13422931]

>>13422853
Book 7 line 25-35 or so

[Anonymous No.13422940]

>>13422880
Her point by interpreting homer freely herself is to show that other translations also have done that is what youre saying?

[Anonymous No.13422957]

>>13422851
Thats not the point. We're selecting translations that we prefer in english based on how it feels to read them. If then we come across something we know doesnt exist in other translations, it makes us curious and we look it up and the discussion ensues. Translator's are there to guide us through Homer, we're not reading Homer, we're reading our guides' translation and we want to trust them as we're here to read Homer. If it seems to us then that our guide the translator is doing their own thing, why not talk about it?

[Anonymous No.13422971]

>>13422715
Thank you very much. Reads like most acclaimed translations cept wilson and rieu

[Anonymous No.13423175]

This broad literally translated the famous first line as
>tell me about a complicated man
which is all you need to know about this shite.

[Anonymous No.13423266]

>>13420494
She's surprisingly not semetic.

[Anonymous No.13423813]

>>13420584
If there are translations like this, why would anyone read the shit in the OP?

[Anonymous No.13423826]

>>13420751

[Anonymous No.13423849]

>>13420494
you're a moron

[Anonymous No.13423881]

>not reading the original Greek
Kys cuck

[Anonymous No.13423885]

>>13423849
Op here, ive changed my mind during the course of this thread, its not that big of a deal in the ene. It was just the reaction i had going through her twitter and seeing that tweet along with the ines where she promotes her Odyssey as the next big thing, which one ought to do if you want to make sales

[Anonymous No.13423913]

>>13422931
>To him, then, addressed the goddess, Athena owl eyes:
>"Therefore, foreigner father, the house you asked
>I will show, since he lives near my impeccable father.
>But go very quiet, I will guide you on the road,
>and do not stares no men or question him.
>See, they do not tolerate many foreign men,
>nor are hospitable with those from elsewhere.
>Confident in their swift ships, fast,
>they cross they great sea, because to them it was given by the earth-shaker:
>their ships are fast like wings or thoughts".
I had to change some verbs and pronoms because my english isn't very good. It's mostly our versions of "thou", the verbs that go with and ours "that" and "this" that works differently, but the meaning is the same.

[Anonymous No.13423914]

>>13420494
As distasteful as it may be, I don't mind it from a literary/poetic perspective. The homeric tradition is flexible. The bards all sang a different tune, and so does Emily. It's the same reason why Pope, though his translation is also unfaithful, upholds the homeric tradition better than most literalists.

[Anonymous No.13423964]

>>13420593
underrated post

especially
>Women are herdthinking faggots who unconsciously enjoy enforcing social cohesion because it raises their status in the tribe.

[Anonymous No.13423969]

>circling text in a book with a pencil instead of screenshotting it and digitally circling it

[Anonymous No.13423977]

>>13423964
>>13420593
>>13420581
>>13420593
>>13420612
>>13421208

YOU'RE. NOT. WELCOME. HERE.

TAKE YOUR TOXIC BULLSHIT ELSEWHERE!

[Anonymous No.13424000]

>>13421387
bruh is reading hard for you?

[Anonymous No.13424004]

>>13423977
shut up fatty, this isn't reddit

[Anonymous No.13424092]

>>13423969
Fucking this.

[Anonymous No.13424093]

>>13423977
Have children.

[Anonymous No.13424118]

>sees Emily Wilson hate thread
sigh, might as well see what the the /lit/ snowflakes are saying about her now
>reads Fagles and Wilson passages side by side
just as I thought, it's exactly the same in both versions, only more simplistic in the Wilson. Fagles is superior, but as usual, Wilson did nothing worse than dumb it down. by God, you people get triggered over the simplest fucking things

[Anonymous No.13424126]

>>13424118
wtf I hate nuance now

[Anonymous No.13424134]

>>13424126
>muh nuance!!!
you're literally projecting your need to be angry at people who politically disagree with you onto the page

[Anonymous No.13424157]

>>13420581
>some foul tranny will call me a Reddit buzzword
Oh no whatever will I do?

[Anonymous No.13424186]

>>13424118
>/lit/ snowflakes
why do sjws think appropriating paul joseph watson tier boomer insults is funny. the only people saying "snowflakes" now are facebook MAGA boomers and blue haired feminists

[Anonymous No.13424196]

>>13420547
>What kind of person enthusiastically takes up the cause of the status quo INSOFAR AS it's the status quo? Women apparently.

Well yeah.

They do what the TV says.

[Anonymous No.13424202]

>>13424186
The butchering of the 'snowflake' insult is kind of interesting. It originally meant someone who was trying to be as unique as possible, either by adopting made up nu pronouns or edgy fedora religions, much like an actual snowflake.
For some reasonit gradually just meant someone was butthurt. On the internet, especially on shit holes like Reddit, there are two emotions: offended and butthurt, it became massively overused by basically everyone.
On Reddit and then Facebook and Twitter, after 2016, "the left" tried to "take back" the insult without really understanding what the insult was, it sort of worked because it basically killed its use in actually edgy communities (as all memes go when they start being adopted by crusty middle aged white women).
Now, like you said, the only people that still use it are MAGA Boomers and disgusting Reddit trannies.

[Anonymous No.13424212]

>>13424186
I'm using the word in the sense that, like a snowflake, you melt in the presence of even slight heat, or to be more literal, you get triggered over even the slightest implication of disagreement

[Anonymous No.13424228]

>>13424212
>just making up your own definition that no one would understand without explicit prior explanation
Wow.

[Anonymous No.13424240]

>>13424228
I find your amazement quite flattering, thank you
(by the way, I use the word "amazement" to mean "the state of being trapped in a maze")

[Anonymous No.13424256]

>>13424228
>>13424240 (me)
irony aside, it's a pretty obvious metaphor, and I'm surprised you would find its usage so offensive

[Anonymous No.13424264]

>>13424118
Except it's not the same at all, do you even pay attention? There's been multiple explanations in this thread, like >>13422820
Also check out her own admission of being a cunt for sjw points >>13420751

[Anonymous No.13424273]

So what leads to this kind of position in life for a female author? I've known several priveleged feminists myself and their arc is usually:

>grow up as a spoiled cunt
>fuck Chads
>find one mega Chad and want to go steady with him
>Chad pumps and dumps
>she uses her privelege to portray herself as the victim in a patriarchal misogynistic culture
>becomes old and either remains alone or settles for a rich beta
>spends her time bashing men in general due to her experience with Chad

[Anonymous No.13424285]

>>13424264
Homer was the one who called them hypocrites in the first place, Wilson only dumbed down the passage and made it more obvious
>"This passage applies to [modern thing]"
that's not an admission of tampering with the wording, that's only an admission that she sees modern applications of the passage

[Anonymous No.13424286]

>>13423914
Yeah man, but ive made that point in the thread twice already and im more than anything annoyed at the finger pointing towards people objecting to the mass immigration in western europe and making it stigmatic and creating a further divide between people today. The whole status quo of having the right opinions, not looking at anything from a human standpoint but rather from who is the opressed- eh, i dont wanna derail this thread more. I do like Emily's translation

[Anonymous No.13424288]

>>13424285
>Homer was the one who called them hypocrites in the first place
How do you know this?
Why is it in no other translation?

[Anonymous No.13424300]

>>13424288
>Why is it in no other translation?
it's pretty clearly there in the Fagles translation

[Anonymous No.13424302]

>>13424240
>being this dumb
>thinking you came away looking good after this embarrassing display
Absolute shape of you...

[Anonymous No.13424303]

>>13424300
but it isn't, what are you talking about

[Anonymous No.13424306]

>>13424302
>getting this far without realizing I was being cheeky
inb4 "backpedaling"
>>13424303
you can't actually be serious

[Anonymous No.13424307]

>>13424300
What now? It seems you still haven't understood what the problem is

[Anonymous No.13424317]

>fly like wings
What

[Anonymous No.13424318]

>>13424306
i am serious

fagles:
>they have no love for foreigners, only trust their ships
that's not hypocritical

wilson:
>they don't like strangers from abroad although they cross the sea themselves
that's hypocritical

[Anonymous No.13424322]

>>13424318
you got it literally backwards, it's the former that's hypocritical

[Anonymous No.13424334]

>>13424322
now you're just gaslighting, but feel free to explain how it's hypocritical to trust ships but not foreigners, if you're actually serious

[Anonymous No.13424337]

>>13424322
>The men here never suffer strangers gladly,
>have no love for hosting a man from foreign lands.
>All they really trust are their fast, flying ships
>that cross the mighty ocean.
All it's stating is that they don't trust foreigners, and what they do trust is their ships. There no hypocrisy being implied at all in any way. it is not present in the text.

[Anonymous No.13424340]

>>13424322
>I'll just redefine what hypocritical means

[Anonymous No.13424344]

>>13424334
>>13424337
>>13424340
thanks for the upvotes
edit: now my highest voted comment is about hypocrisy
edit 2: thanks for the gold kind stranger, upvotes to the left

[Anonymous No.13424348]

>Can't read a translation of ancient literature without the translator having filled it with their vile, au courant political slop.
Why did things turn out like this?

[Anonymous No.13424370]

JANITOR FUCK THIS THREAD

Its been settled in my, OPs, mind after futher thinking

>It's not a big deal how she simplified that line, you can look into it and either find alusions to hipocracy among anti-immigration politics or not
>>13424285
>>13423914
I agree with you two (or maybe youre the same person)


>I wasnt woman hating, i wanted to make that clear with the first line bc i believe firmly you should only look at her job as a translator and weigh it among her colleagues such as fagles etc.

>I hate boasting about your own art and especially from translators like P&V, and especially if the product is bad - as is the case with p&v, but not, imo, the Wilson translation of Odyssey - however i forgive it as you're trying to make a buck and god knows its not a lucrative industry. I have a huge problem with P&V making money from their godawful translations, but i dont with Wilson, as her translation is somewhat of a stand out and very readable.

>Regarding politics i intensely dislike the importance of having mainstream opinions in order to be accepted into an industry as it divides and embitters people and kills expressing opinions with the threat of being ostracized.

Thanks to everyone who contributed with translations and to the people who kept the discussion going. Now its derailing into flame war and back and forth (You)s ad nauseum.

[Anonymous No.13424374]

>>13424337
If you're gonna read hypocracy into Wilsoms you might as well call that rendering you posted as a more subtle hypocracy

[Anonymous No.13424379]

>>13424374
I don't need to read it into Wilson's because it's plainly in the text. That's why she uses the term "although."
>although, conj. - in spite of the fact that : even though
It's creating a comparison between the two things (not liking foreigners; trusting their owns ships) when the original does not.

[Anonymous No.13424385]

>>13424370
It's not "simplified." The meaning has been altered to something different.

[Anonymous No.13424394]

>>13424379
Again, ancient greek is different and we dont know how people spoke. They might as well not have had the word "although" (since they didnt even have a word for "blue") and irony might have been expressed differently back then. Either way, if Emily sees it as hypocracy, that doesnt mean its a thinly veiled jab at moderm right wing values

[Anonymous No.13424396]

>>13424385
You dont know that, its impossible to know what the meaning of having them be unwelcoming to foreigners yet loving going out sailing with their boats. If you want to interpret that as they loved longue sailing for pleasure and not raiding, thats your interpretarion.

[Anonymous No.13424399]

>>13420662
rs;dr

[Anonymous No.13424402]

>>13424394
>>13424396
>Uh dude we don't know shit about Greek, like, it might have meant that because we don't know how they express anything so, like, just translate it however you want dude, fuck borders ;)
0/10

[Anonymous No.13424407]

>>13424402
Hyperbole, you just lost the argument

[Anonymous No.13424411]

>>13424394
>>13424396
We possess ancient Greek works, such as those of Aristotle, which explain their use of literary devices such as irony. You're clueless and your defense is based only on your own ignorance. Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.13424413]

>>13424399
?

[Anonymous No.13424417]

>>13424407
You never made an argument to being with. You just said that you didn't know how Greeks express something, so it might have meant that. You don't know anything about the subject, as you admit, so your post is meaningless and can be discarded.

[Anonymous No.13424423]

>>13424402
>fuck borders

Where did the author write this?

[Anonymous No.13424425]

>>13424411
You are just as baseless without proof you fucking moron. We have no idea how to interpret that line and if we're going by Aristotle, you're saying he knows how irony was interpreted 1000 years before his birth.

[Anonymous No.13424428]

>>13424425
>We have no idea how to interpret that line
If you have no idea what it means then you aren't in any position to tell me what constitutes a good translation.

[Anonymous No.13424430]

>>13420558
Hope you aren't American

[Anonymous No.13424437]

>>13420623
NO YOUR A POO POO DOODY FACE

[Anonymous No.13424438]

>>13424413
I think he meant "reddit spacing; didn't read"

[Anonymous No.13424442]

>>13424428
Well, im guessing you're saying you know what it means then. If so, go ahead:

>But go very quiet, I will guide you on the road,
>and do not stares no men or question him.
>See, they do not tolerate many foreign men,
>nor are hospitable with those from elsewhere.
>Confident in their swift ships, fast,
>they cross they great sea, because to them it was given by the earth-shaker:
>their ships are fast like wings or thoughts".


What did they do on their journeys across the sea? Was it for pleasure or for plundering?

[Anonymous No.13424447]

>>13424438
Lol, fair

[Anonymous No.13424449]

>>13424425
>We have no idea how to interpret that line
Here is my personal translation:
>The people dislike foreigners,
>Who come to their land on boats;
>But since they like the sea, they
>Use the foreigners boats to set sail themselves.
Hope that helps shed some light on the text for you.

[Anonymous No.13424452]

>>13424449
>Here is my personal translation
Exactly

[Anonymous No.13424456]

>>13423977
Formatting your bait like a facebook post is just too obvious.

[Anonymous No.13424458]

>>13424456
Using that language on 4chan its obvious hes jokin

[Anonymous No.13424595]

>>13424186
they're trying to get rid of insults that trigger them by nonsensically spamming them everywhere until no one uses them

[Anonymous No.13424654]

>>13420494
That and her shit writing is the real reason to criticise Wilson, not that she's a woman. A man could have wrote it and these problems would still persist. When your goal from the outset is create a "woke" translation of a work, it can only end badly regardless of the translator's gender.

I'm now trying to imagine how bad it would be if similar translations were made of other works of literature.

[Anonymous No.13424866]

Is she Jewish? It seems plausible based on >>13421266 but I can't be sure.

[Anonymous No.13425290]

>>13424370
>Janny, this is OP, I'm DONE with this thread

thats not how it works pal. The thread isn't yours, its ours.

[Anonymous No.13425330]

>>13420662
As it turns out she also interprets Homer as she pleases and adds political tone that isnt supposes to be there. Which is all fine, she can do what she wants with her translation.

Nice try but that's not fine. It makes her an establishment backed pseudo translator at best. I don't judge her for gender. I acknowledge that she wants to be recognized for her work. But her work is CHARGED as fuck, moreso than previous translators by far. So whatever she wanted to correct just became even worse.

[Anonymous No.13425369]

>>13420662
>As it turns out she also interprets Homer as she pleases and adds political tone that isnt supposes to be there. Which is all fine, she can do what she wants with her translation.

Nice try but that's not fine. It makes her an establishment backed pseudo translator at best. I don't judge her for gender. I acknowledge that she wants to be recognized for her work. But her work is CHARGED as fuck, moreso than previous translators by far. So whatever she wanted to correct just became even worse.

[Anonymous No.13425457]

>>13420494
conflates mass migration akin to invasion with tourism

what is it with white women and the need to betray the very society who gave them everything they've asked fo?

[Anonymous No.13425547]

>>13425290
I dont care for you cretins.

[Anonymous No.13425551]

>>13425369
How is it CHARGED as fuck? Give examples instead of just your gut feeling and the rumors youve heard.

[Anonymous No.13425587]

>>13420494
I will stay with Lattimore thank you.

[Anonymous No.13425611]

>>13420637
I'd unironically read and enjoy thug renderings of the Iliad and Odyssey.

[Anonymous No.13425626]

>>13420751
Twitter posting should be a bannable offense.

[Anonymous No.13425775]

>>13425611
>Nestor as the old black man giving unsolicited advice

[Anonymous No.13425785]

>>13425611
Tell me bout that one dude girl, that nigga that sailed all the seas and shit, met all kinds of people and fuckin got to learn all their shit and shit. He went through some real gangsta shit on the ocean too just tryna get hisself and his homies - home, know what i sayin?

But yo shit was real tho, cuz look he tried his best but just wasnt good enough know what i mean. Them niggas fucked UP tho baka. Mothefuckas ate all the Sun God's cows and shit and he be all like yo FUCK THAT cuz. Nigga made sure they aint ever comin home, know what im sayin? Anyway bitch, start around there or some shit.

Now all them soldiers that bailed the fuck outta troy was already home. But not this nigga. He was missin his old lady and shit, cant really blame him, missed the crib, all that shit. This fuckin bad bitch calypsHOE kept the dude from goin home. Kept him deep in her dark caves and shit, know what im sayin lmaooo this fuckin nigga. Then she started talkin bout gettin married and shit he was like fuck that shit boo. And then when all the gods was sayin like "aight, its time for this dude to go home", didnt help him SHIT cuz, homeboy didnt have one single homie at his side. All the Olympus niggas felt sorry as shit for him, cept for that one nigga poseidon, it was some real bitch shit, dude wouldnt ease up til my man Odysseus was home. Odysseus be cry.

[Anonymous No.13426531]

>>13425785
>home, know what i sayin?
not
>home, nahm saiin?
You are not going to make it.

[Anonymous No.13426886]

>>13420605
t. seething hole

[Anonymous No.13426890]

>>13426886
implying men don't have holes

[Anonymous No.13426892]

>>13420662
kill yourself, cunt.

[Anonymous No.13426922]

>>13426890
Implying women are not defined by their holes. Implying women are anything except holes.

[Anonymous No.13427195]

>>13426892
>>13426886
>This... he's right...... i have no arguments... gotta be a woman....

[Anonymous No.13427631]

>>13421208
>In an interview she explicitly stated she disagreed politically with Homer

since when homer had political views other than a king should rule his land ?

[Anonymous No.13427638]

>>13421306
>No she doesn't. You're just reading the text through your ideological lenses.

nice projection there

[Anonymous No.13427663]

I'm a woman. I think Wilson's ok.

[Anonymous No.13427743]

>>13421208
>She thinks the Cyclops being a monster is an example of racist "colonial attitudes" rather than an actual fucking mythological monster.
Christ. This is comp 101 shit, and it should stay there. If you want to write an accademic paper or review and argue that, go ahead - others have done worse. But don't fucking include that and call it an official translation.

[Anonymous No.13427767]

>>13421035
>emeter has “cornrows in her hair”

[Anonymous No.13427775]

>>13427638
same to you partner

[Anonymous No.13427857]

>>13427663
>I'm a woman.
Pardon me while I enter your orbit.

[Anonymous No.13428117]

How hard is it to learn Ancient Greek? Donna Tartt turned me towards it, the slut.

[Anonymous No.13428269]

>>13421266
It would be a lot more fun hating on this chick if she were younger. It seems she's just a wacky old "feminist" cat lady with annoying tendencies.

[Anonymous No.13428288]

>>13422715
I unironically find this translation more interesting than even the good Englishified ones like Fitzgerald.

[Anonymous No.13428353]

>>13425551
See >>13420751
Just in case you're that stubborn, here's the vox article, which I'm surprised has yet to be posted, which makes her intentions clear as day.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/20/16651634/odyssey-emily-wilson-translation-first-woman-english

[Anonymous No.13428418]

>>13428288
Same

[Anonymous No.13428513]

>>13424196
>As a teenager, Michel believed that suffering conferred dignity on a person. Now he had to admit he had been wrong. What conferred dignity on people was television.

[Anonymous No.13428746]

>>13420592
>tfw no mommy Misato to drunkenly nuzzle your face into her breasts as she strokes your excited adolescent shaft through your skintight plugsuit

[Anonymous No.13428809]

>>13428746
>childhood is being a Rei or an Asukafag
>adulthood is realizing that Misato is not only the second most important character in the whole show, but that she's objectively the best girl
I waited 7 or so years from the first time I watched NGE unitl I rewatched it, but I don't know how I missed out on how best Misato was.

[Anonymous No.13428952]

>>13424118
not so long ago translation thread were about shitting on faggles

[Anonymous No.13429018]

>>13428809
Just imagining a massive breasted woman being my guardian and pushing me to be more aggressive at age 14 while walking around in her underwear all the time is so hot. Shinji really didn't realize how lucky he was.

[Anonymous No.13429352]

>>13428513
>As a teenager...
I was not familiar with this. I just websearched it. TY. Funny shit.

[Anonymous No.13429392]

>>13421387
are you actually a brainlet

[Anonymous No.13431101]

>“Earlier translators are not as uncomfortable with the text as I am,” she explained to me, “and I like that I’m uncomfortable.” Part of her goal with the translation was to make readers uncomfortable too — with the fact that Odysseus owns slaves, and with the inequities in his marriage to Penelope. Making these aspects of the poem visible, rather than glossing over them, “makes it a more interesting text,” she said.

[Anonymous No.13431572]

>>13431101
>people living eras ago don't have 21st century neoliberal morals
wow what a shocker