/trad/ Traditionalism General

[Anonymous No.13413570]

The last thread was a success, so let's have another.

Previous thread: >>13401233

Thread for discussing the ideas and books of thinkers associated with the Traditionalist school, sometimes also known as the Perennialist school. Including but not limited to:
- Rene Guenon
- Martin Lings
- Seyyed Hossein Nasr
- Frithjof Schuon
- Ananda K. Coomaraswamy
- Julius Evola
- Titus Burckhardt
- Philip Sherrard
- Jean Borella
- Marco Pallis
- Whitall Perry etc.
Also thinkers indirectly affiliated, influenced by, or similar to Traditionalism:
- Henry Corbin
- William Chittick
- Mircea Eliade
- Arthur Avalon etc
Here is a short video summary of what Traditionalists believe:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kDtabTufxao
Here's a documentary on Perennialism:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=135s&v=P_CNg4dpU54
An hour long interview with Julius Evola (sorry about the stupid intermission):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=611s&v=QiCtdi5nCoA
And lastly, a talk by the most eminent Traditionalist around today:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fIjW1z-ZAX8
Harry Oldmeadow speaking at the Sacred Web Conference 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnsXKtE5PNI
Seyyed Hosein Nasr speaking at the Sacred Web Conference 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20nuTITfhko
Prince Charles on Tradition (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnnXKmGQ4nI
Prince Charles on Traditionalism (Part 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zITpU225cG4

[Anonymous No.13413575]

>>13413570
Would Bowden be considered a Traditionalist?
https://youtu.be/aL3agVbX6K8

[Anonymous No.13413582]

>>13413570
>Intro books to read first before any Vedanta text (read 1 or both)
https://archive.org/details/EssentialVedanta.TheANewSourceBookOfAdvaitaVedantaSeeAdvaitaVedantaAPhilosophica_201701
https://archive.org/stream/reneguenon/1925%20-%20Man%20and%20His%20Becoming%20according%20to%20the%20Ved%C3%A2nta

Adi Shankara's Prasthanatrayi commentaries (his most important works)
>Commentary on 8 of the Muhkya Upanishads part 1
https://archive.org/details/EightUpanishadsWithSankarabhashyamSwamiGambhiranandaVol11989
>Commentary on 8 of the Muhkya Upanishads part 2
https://archive.org/details/EightUpanishadsWithSankarabhashyamSwamiGambhiranandaVol21966
>Brahma Sutra Bhasya (commentary) of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/details/BrahmaSutraSankaraBhashyaEngVMApte1960
>The Bhagavad-Gita with commentary of Shankaracharya
https://archive.org/details/Bhagavad-Gita.with.the.Commentary.of.Sri.Shankaracharya

>Shankara's non-commentary works
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Sri_Shankaracharya-Upadeshasahasri%20-%20Swami%20Jagadananda%20%281949%29%20[Sanskrit-English].pdf
https://gita-society.com/pdf2011/vivekachudamani.pdf
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Sri_Shankaracharya-AtmaBodha%20%28and%20Other%20Stotras%29%20-%20Swami%20Nikhilananda%20%281947%29%20[Sanskrit-English].pdf
http://estudantedavedanta.net/Aparoksha-Anubhuti-by-Sri-Shankaracharya.pdf
https://www.swamij.com/shankara-vakya-vritti.htm
http://shiningworld.com/site/files/pdfs/publications/books/1_Knowledge_of_Truth_Tattva_Bodh.pdf
http://www.vidyavrikshah.org/SIVANANDALAHARI.pdf
http://www.vidyavrikshah.org/SOUNDARYALAHARI.pdf
http://theheartofthesun.com/Nirvana.pdf
http://jagannathavallabha.com/pdf_engl/prasnottara%20english%20for%20amazon.pdf

>non-Shankara Advaita Vedanta texts
https://realization.org/p/ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita/richards.ashtavakra-gita.html
http://www.shiningworld.com/site/files/pdfs/publications/scripture/avadhuta_gita.pdf
http://www.bahaistudies.net/asma/dasbodha.pdf
http://estudantedavedanta.net/jivanmuktiviveka.pdf
https://www.beezone.com/Ramana/tripura%20rahasya.pdf
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/texts/AtmavidyAvilAsaH_trnsln.pdf
https://archive.org/details/SriJnanadevasAmritanubhavaAmbrosialExperienceEnglishTranslationOfOriginalMarathiChangadevaPasashti
https://archive.org/details/VasisthasYoga
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.238117/page/n3 (Vedantasara)
https://www.nevernotpresent.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Panchadasi.pdf
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/texts/vedAntakalpalatikA_Madhusudana_Sarasvati.pdf
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/texts/vedAntaparibhAshA_dharmarajavarIndrA.pdf
https://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Advaita-Bodha-Deepika.pdf
http://ramana-maharshi.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/7/2/24723372/kaivalya_navaneeta_-_cream_of_liberation.pdf
https://vivekananda.net/PDFBooks/Others/DrgDrsyaViveka1931.pdf

[Anonymous No.13413588]

>>13413582
Here's a short text on the exoteric-esoteric distinction:
http://www.fatuma.net/text/Haqiqa_and_Sharia_in_Islam_by_Rene_Guenon.pdf
Here's an exchange of letters between an Islamic Traditionalist and a Christian critical of traditionalism, specifically debating over the idea of non-dualism:
http://www.sacredweb.com/online_articles/sw17_bolton-upton.pdf

[Anonymous No.13413596]

>>13413588
Obligatory chart.

[Anonymous No.13413615]

>>13413596
Evola chart. My personal recommendation is to start with either The Recognitions or The Bow and the Club, instead of Mystery of the Grail.

[Anonymous No.13413645]

>>13413615
Sorry about the chart for ants. Here's the real one.

[Anonymous No.13413775]

Are any of these guys actual traditionalists and not just new age buddhist hipsters?

[Anonymous No.13413789]

>>13413570
wow this is p cringe
>>13413775
no

[Anonymous No.13413802]

>>13413775
>Asking if these traditionalist guys are traditionalists in a traditionalist thread
u wot?

[Anonymous No.13413807]

>>13413802
Christianity is tradition, not the spiritualities of other cultures.

[Anonymous No.13413883]

>>13413789
>>13413775
Jesus, why is discourse so low in quality with you guys? Nothing but sneering remarks, arrogance and hatte. And if you are called out on it, lo and behold, the ugly mask of aggression is just replaced by one of post-irony. I don't want to go down the road of linking this behavior to various dysfunctional life circumstances.

You don't want any discussion taking place about topics you so intensely dislike. Perhaps ask yourself wäre this emotional reaction stems from.

The best you will come up with will be how you don't need to prove anything to LARPers. Great quality, really. If you are not willing to contribute to the Diskussion, yes even contributing to it not becoming an echo chamber, why not stay silent? And stfu about "this is 4chan lulz"
No argument

[Anonymous No.13413986]

>>13413775
who are 'these guys'?

[Anonymous No.13413990]

Christian Guenonian Books

[Anonymous No.13413992]

None are They whose number is Six: else were they Six indeed.

Seven are these Six that live not in the City of the Pyramids, under the Night of Pan.
( They are called Seven, although they are Eight, because Lao-Tzu counts as Nought, owing to the nature of his doctrine. )

There was Lao-tzu.

There was Siddartha.

There was Krishna.

There was Tahuti.

There was Mosheh.

There was Dionysus.(7)

There was Mahmud.

But the Seventh men called PERDURABO; for
enduring unto The End, at The End was Naught
to endure.

Amen.

[Anonymous No.13413996]

>>13413883
I'm an anon who posted a lot in the previous thread. I originally dismissed the thread as somehow being about some sort of protestant christianity thing. Honestly I have never heard in my entire life of Guenon and perennial christianity before this thread. I think it's understandable why it attracts the irk of other posters. They assume this thread is about something which it is not, though even if they understand what traditionalism as this perennial metaphysics which ultimately posits a return to traditional societies, it would very likely attract detractors anyway. There are a lot of atheists, socialists, modernists, humanists and such in this board.

[Anonymous No.13414052]

>>13413990
More like heresy

[Anonymous No.13414065]

>>13414052
Coomaraswamy was a priest and Borella's daughter was a benedictine nun, so they must not be too bad.

[Anonymous No.13414077]

>>13413996
It's about the delivery, really. I'm very much open for discussion, and not asking for the tone to be somehow de-vulgarized. You can also use insults or ridicule in your argument if you like, but there was no substance to those points, that's my main problem with this. Nothing added to the discussion. It's arrogant and reeks of self-aggrandizement. This whole "I have to answer to nobody" sentiment. It's very immature, really.

[Anonymous No.13414103]

>>13414077
I commend you for that but to expect civility from 4chan especially at this age is just foolish. The best you can do is ignore.

[Anonymous No.13414112]

Sorry but Derrida already BTFO traditionalists and their metaphysics of presence

[Anonymous No.13414118]

>>13414103
To me that seems like submitting to the lower state. I can't do that. To speak out against it is essential in my opinion.

4chan is a medium and a plastic one at that. You don't need to limit yourself with the foolish attire of true-ness. Always reminds me of cringey late-teen/early-twenties Black Metal fucks. Purism over dead forms, rigid pretense just comes from a place of fear and wanting to fit in.

[Anonymous No.13414122]

Read the real traditionalists not these hacks

[Anonymous No.13414125]

>>13413575
not in the sense Guenon understood it

>>13413775
not buddhists, Guenon hated it and thought it was anti-traditional trash...right-wing new age crypto hindus? yes.

>>13414112
vedanta evades the criticisms of heidegger and derrida...in this way guenonian traditionalism is truly anti-post-modern and anti-modern

[Anonymous No.13414190]

>>13414125
No metaphysics evades Derrida

[Anonymous No.13414202]

>>13414190
read Man and His Becoming According to Vedanta and The Multiple States of Being and stop sucking academic po-mo dick.

[Anonymous No.13414228]

>>13414202
>po-mo

Want to know how I can tell you are not familiar with Derrida? Stop sucking traditionalist dick lol

[Anonymous No.13414297]

>>13414190
not who you're responding to but can you refer me to where derrida "BTFO" tradism and 'metaphysics of presence'?

[Anonymous No.13414368]

Unrelated but I hate /pol/ kids confusing Traditionalism with their "trad" meme which is some vague idea of 1950's america, like that was some ideal past or some shit
America should be wiped off the planet, now that would be Trad

[Anonymous No.13414391]

>>13414228
That's what they call it you moron

[Anonymous No.13414395]

>>13414368
I agree, same w "conservatives "

[Anonymous No.13414399]

>>13413990
you should remove rama's book, it has nothing to do with esotericism or 'Guenonianism' as such

[Anonymous No.13414405]

>>13414395
>duude im so right wing i vote republican! i love the constitution and democracy!

[Anonymous No.13414434]

Stop right there criminal scum!

[Anonymous No.13414449]

how do you preserve a traditional place from the ever encroaching modernistic influence

[Anonymous No.13414458]

>>13414434
>alt right
>interest in mental wellbeing
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA nigga what

[Anonymous No.13414485]

>>13413570
I'm into what should be exoteric Zen Buddhism, only it's ironically the stuff people least seem to get. It's all very straightforward - you meditate to see the truth, cut through the bullshit, clear your mind, cut down emotional disturbances, and see clearly what you need to do. The four noble truths are really about letting go of your illusory ideas on how things should be, and seeing how they actually are so that you can understand how to act in ways that are actually effective (right thought/action). The zen interpretation of reincarnation isn't that you're going to wake up and be a bird, or a cow. It's that we're all manifestations of a greater world-system, just like everything else in it, so obviously our individual consciousness dies when the brain does, but all you've been perceiving is the world that you're an expression of. The Zen interpretation of karma is almost Kantian, basically just saying that if you act in bad ways, you make the world worse; good actions make it better. Your bad interactions are from people acting in bad ways just like you, so stop it.

This all seems very straightforward, but whenever I bring it up people are more interested in esoteric psychedelic bullshit, with the Tibetan book of the dead, literal reincarnation, mastering the chi like an anime character, and new age. It's frustrating.

[Anonymous No.13414554]

>>13414228
You're brainwashed by the po-mo neo-liberal elite (Derrida is a crypto-Randian by the way, denying the possibility of the gift lmfao he needs to be shot). Heidegger and Derrida were a mistake. Their sweeping critiques of western metaphysics have no relevance beyond armchair history.

And *if* they were right, they have nothing on non-dualist metaphysics like Vedanta. Heidegger would admit this, Derrida... probably not, because he's a cunt who robbed UC Irvine and a rape apologist.

>>13414297
Vedanta doesn't fall into the metaphysics of presence. Guenon is constantly saying western metaphysics needs to be supplemented with an understanding of non-being that Vedanta offers.

Anyway, Zizek wrote a good paper on how Derrida is a retard and still trapped in the metaphysics he claims to deconstruct. Phenomenology was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.13414562]

>>13414368
Guenon literally talks about this. He says many will confuse Traditionalism with a cuckservative love for tradition, and they will have no knowledge of real tradition.

[Anonymous No.13414576]

>>13414554
>armchair history
>but guenon is good

[Anonymous No.13414649]

>>13414554
>denying the possibility of the gift
?

[Anonymous No.13415002]

Out of curiosity, how have these authors impacted your personal life? I am quite deeply influenced by Guenon's metaphysics, but I find him to be a bit cryptic with how to improve one's practical life. He doesn't have a single book on spiritual practice nor do many of the other traditionalists. I understand why, but it still leaves a bit to be desired.

[Anonymous No.13415105]

>>13414458
Are you retarded? It's far right, not alt right.

[Anonymous No.13415446]

Was looking through the archives and I saw this post in a Guenon thread. I thought it was interesting, and unappreciated, so I'm sharing it here.

[Anonymous No.13415457]

>>13415002
same here

[Anonymous No.13415526]

>>13415002
Evola dragged me out of blackpill hell

[Anonymous No.13415557]

>http://freelyreceive.net/metalogos/files/ph_interlin.html

Lesser known translation of Philip.

>Everyone who [enters] the Bedroom shall be born in the Light. For they [are not begotten] in the manner of the marriages which we [do not] see, (which are) are enacted by night, the fire (of which) [flares] in the dark (and then) is extinguished. Yet rather the Sacraments of this Marriage are consummated in the day and the light. Neither that day nor its light ever sets.

>yfw mereology never stood a chance

[Anonymous No.13415661]

>>13413570
What about ideas such as shamanism or animism?
Do they fall into traditionalism thought at all?

[Anonymous No.13415663]

What trads say about the amerindian peoples? Can someone give some recs

[Anonymous No.13415669]

>>13415651
I’m not aware of any trad authors who DON’T consider amerindian religion traditional. As far as I know, they all do. I don’t know what would be a good book on it though. I think Schuon has a book on it. I’m wary of Schuon, but at the least you could check to see if his book has a bibliography.

[Anonymous No.13415687]

>>13415661
Eliade wrote a book on Shamanism. Guenon has a chapter on shamanism in The Reign of Quantity. Charles Upton has an article about Psychedelics and Shamanism from a Sufi Muslim perspective.
Guenon and Evola saw shamanism as a degeneration of the primordial spirituality and by no means primitive insofar as primitive signifies traditional. In general, the traditionalist school doesn't talk much about it because they emphasize the importance of practice and transmission of an orthodox and esoteric doctrine. For nearly everyone, Shamanistic practices are not a valid spiritual option since they are so drastically different from the modern mindset, east or west. Even then, Evola criticizes Shamanism for its emphasis on the lower daemons and not the supra-conscious elements of metaphysics.

[Anonymous No.13415692]

>>13414125
Sorta
Guenon thought that Siddhartha taught tradition paths and loved early Buddhism.
However he rejected the idea of non-self but he believed it was not the original teaching of Siddhartha

[Anonymous No.13415705]

>>13415663
Schuon has a book on it called the feathered sun which is rated well but I would be careful of syncretic tendencies within it. Nasr has a lot of small articles comparing American Indian Spirituality to Sufi Muslim Spirituality and perhaps a few YouTube lectures as well. Guenon and Evola hardly mention it.

[Anonymous No.13415715]

Anyone have any books recs on traditional Buddhism?

[Anonymous No.13415727]

Does Taleb kinda count?

[Anonymous No.13415734]

>>13415727
No

[Anonymous No.13415757]

>>13415692
Guenon considered the Mahayana, specifically, to be traditional.
>>13415705
Guenon does mention it a little. I remember him discussing the symbolism of the world-tree in amerindian myth.

[Anonymous No.13415763]

>>13414554
but isn’t Atman pure being? And isn’t Atman Brahman?

[Anonymous No.13415888]

[Anonymous No.13415942]

>>13414190
go ahead and explain how Derrida could possible contend with Peircean metaphysics. Deconstruction cant touch anything built on phaneroscopy and bonafide semiotics, and everyone knows it. fuck off with your woo woo frog croaking games, y'all are nearly as bad as the guenon retards.

[Anonymous No.13415959]

>>13415942
thanks for reminding me of this meme

[Anonymous No.13415968]

>>13415959
well im glad I reminded you because I made that meme

[Anonymous No.13415974]

>>13415715
A History of Buddhist Philosophy: Continuities and Discontinuities

[Anonymous No.13415978]

>>13415968
can you give me the quick rundown on piercean metaphysics?

[Anonymous No.13416001]

this is your brain on parmenides:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDscj1jtuvs

[Anonymous No.13416206]

Any work done on traditionalist aspects of african religion and its descendents?
African Vodun
Haitian Vodou
Louisiana Voodoo

Haitian Vodou and Catholicism are heavily intermixed and, from what I've heard, the catholic church endorsed vodou as legitimate to some degree.

[Anonymous No.13416306]

>>13416206

[Anonymous No.13416327]

>>13416306
I feel like it’s one of those traditions that only fit a certain ethnos. If you aren’t African you’ll probably never really “get it” the way they do.

[Anonymous No.13416359]

>>13416327
Bullshit. It's just garden-variety demon worship, literally no different to how every other ethnicity used to do it when they were still barbarous.

[Anonymous No.13416362]

>>13416327
Traditionalism would argue that all legitimate religions have the same metaphysic. If it really does manifest worldwide, it must manifest in africa as well.

I could see it being basically closed to outside initiation. This was guenons claim about hinduism, which is why he joined Islam.

However, assuming it contained the primordial religion, the metaphysic should be apprehendable to all who study it, right?

I'd love to see some work doing a guenonian analysis of vodou.

[Anonymous No.13416381]

>>13416359
If the trads respect american indian religion, I don't see why they wouldnt african religion.

[Anonymous No.13416392]

>>13416362
the metaphysical aspect is universal, but the other aspects of tradition are not. every tradition has its own peculiarities as far as ethics, practice, ambiance, aesthetics, theology, etc. i’m not saying that voodoo is for sure not accessible to non-africans, it just SEEMS that way to me. im only speculating

[Anonymous No.13416407]

>>13416392
I know some non-Africans have been inducted before, but I'm also not disagreeing with you, you could be correct.

My idea is more towards examining the metaphysic of vodou in a guenonian way. I'm not attempting to join or anything.

[Anonymous No.13416443]

>>13416407
Have you studied it at all so far? What are some of the basics of voodoo?

[Anonymous No.13416509]

>>13413645
Aw fuck, I bought ride the tiger during my edgy alt right phase and though i now realize how trash alt right/now reactionary stuff is I still wanted to read Evola — but apparently i should read 7 others before?

Damnit.

[Anonymous No.13416557]

>>13416509
That chart is awful

[Anonymous No.13416558]

>>13416557
What makes it awful? What’s your recommended order ?

[Anonymous No.13416600]

>>13416558
Starting with mystery of the grail is bizarre and I can’t even imagine what the justification of that is, then afterwards he has hermetic tradition which is one of evola’s most dense and difficult works as the second book to read—likewise makes no sense. Also he has intro to magic as “optional”, when, if anything, that’s where you should start. It’s just a terrible chart. My recommendation is that you start with intro to magic volume i (volume ii truly is optional, and you won’t be missing much if you skip it). Then you want to read one or more of his essay books like metaphysics of war, bow and club, east and west, etc. Pick whichever sounds interesting. After that you should “get the idea” and can pretty much read whichever of his works you want.

[Anonymous No.13416626]

>>13416443
I'm fairly ignorant of vodou, but heres some avenues I can see:
- the aspect of not having immediate access to the ultimate divine, and thus working through intermediaries reminds me of neoplatonism and the great chain of being. This neoplatonic influence on christianity (Angels, archangels, etc.) Also fits nicely.
- the dances used to get into a trance and contact the lwa reminds me of the sufi dances for spirituality (pic related).
- theres already the syncretism of catholicism and vodou which would make the trad work on catholicism applicable to some degree.
- the trad work on american indian religion shows a precedent for indigenous religion, if were talking about vodun.

[Anonymous No.13416633]

Where does Christian esotericism end and heresy begin? I'm somewhat interested, but it seems, a bit, like the kind of tempting trick someone would develop to turn people off the path, so to speak.

[Anonymous No.13416640]

Isn't this kind of "traditionalism" exactly what Guenon criticized, in all honesty? Allow me to drop a quote here:

"...the fact that somebody calls himself a 'traditionalist' does
not prove that he knows, even vaguely, what tradition is in the
true sense of the word."
-Rene Guenon, "Crisis of the Modern World", page 28.

[Anonymous No.13416644]

>>13416633
When you start goin against the morals of your religious beliefs I guess?
If you’re asking questions like this it may be best for you not to get into esotericism

[Anonymous No.13416651]

>>13416626
Interesting. I was actually thinking of mentioning that there might be a parallel between voodoo and Neoplatonic theurgy, but since I know next to nothing about voodoo I refrained from posting it since I didn’t want to sound ignorant. It might be a forced comparison, but there might be something to it. If you are really set on studying voodoo you might be able to bring us some fresh and interesting perspectives in future threads. Go for it.

[Anonymous No.13416658]

>>13416640
He is referring to the fact that some people call themselves traditionalist without any reference to metaphysical tradition. Most people just mean that they follow various social customs that are more or less antiquated, which is not traditional in any profound sense.

[Anonymous No.13416663]

>>13416600
What would you say are the major differences between Evola and Guenon?

>>13416633
Borella's defense is that the scholastics used aristotle to examine christianity, augustine incorporates neoplatonism, so why would utilizing Guenon be any different.
As long as you always come back to the doctrines of the church themselves, you will be safe. Using guenon to enlighten the doctrines, not draw away from them.

In fact, borella criticizes guenons analysis of christianity extensively.

[Anonymous No.13416686]

>>13416651
>If you are really set on studying voodoo you might be able to bring us some fresh and interesting perspectives in future threads. Go for it.
Thanks, I appreciate your encouragement.
I've been attempting to post more of the christian guenonians for this very reason, and I believe my research into christianity will aid in voodoo, grail, hermetic, and neoplatonic areas as well.

[Anonymous No.13416718]

I think all this meandering and diving into different traditions is ultimately fruitless, that's why i respect Guenon because he picked Islam and went with it, he lived the way he preached so to speak. I think what we need to do is settle on one tradition, like they did back in the days of Constantine with what eventually became Christianity.

[Anonymous No.13416732]

>>13416718
you need to meander a bit first though

[Anonymous No.13416759]

>>13416732
Well, you may have a point, maybe this is the stage where we all "meander" a bit, before we finally come to rest in the "ocean" so to speak, that might be a proper way to picture the current state of things. I'm looking forward to what the future will bring with regards to Western spiritual tradition.

[Anonymous No.13416765]

>>13416718
See but Guenon wrote on:
Hinduism
Islam
Taoism
Christianity
Grail Myths
Esotericism of Dante
Freemasonry
Theosophy
Spiritism

So no, studying all these traditions is exactly in line with Guenon.
Trads are against syncretism (especially in practice), but are robust in comparative religion.

I think it's important to focus on one heavily, and taken as deep as possible. I am also choosing christianity for this endeavor.

[Anonymous No.13416794]

>>13416765
what would you recommend to an average /lit/ retard interested in all this?
I seek a tradition to delve into, but I don't know where to start and what to do
In general I'm seeking that metaphysical thing that every philosophy/faith seeks if you get what I mean
Like the Good, the One, peace, justice, enlightenment etc

[Anonymous No.13416836]

>>13416794
If you're interested in guenonian traditionalism, I would recommend starting with guenon.
The Essential Guenon published by world wisdom is really good.
The general entry is Guenon's "Intro to Hindu Doctrine" published by Sophia Perennis. It's a great text that I am rereading.

Guenon used hinduism mainly as his metaphysical vocabulary, so once you know you like guenon, Advaita Vedanta is a must.

My current endeavor is Advaita to understand guenon, then the Christian guenonians to understand christianity. All this with a focus on Guenon.

So if you like the guenonian philosophy of religion and metaphysics, start with guenon. Then, explore the world religions to see which speaks to you and take it as deep as possible. This is a trad standard, take one tradition as deep as possible.

Theres guenonian writers in most traditions:
Hindu
Christian
Islam
Taoist

So at that point, its which one speaks to you. If you really wanted to be a guenonian, you would join a specific religion, so then you're limited to legitimate organizations in your area really.

[Anonymous No.13416843]

>>13416600
Thanks anon

[Anonymous No.13416863]

>>13416718
I disagree. Imo the problem is not with thoughtful syncretism but with the willy nilly pick and choose attitude of new age types.

I think a religion or philosophy can and should grow, should take in diverse elements if they’re justified. The problem only occurs when one chooses some other outside idea out of pure convenience.

[Anonymous No.13416864]

how is traditionalism not just a facile attempt to return to the obligate safety of dogmatic metaphysics? how does guenon contend with kants critique of pure reason?

this just seems like another preformance of the right wing's metaphysical Oedipus complex to me.

[Anonymous No.13416866]

>>13416794
>>13416836
Oh, and also, theres a couple academic books on guenonian traditionalism itself:

"Against the modern world" by Sedgwick
"The only tradition" by Quinn

[Anonymous No.13416893]

>>13416864
Either you think theres possible access to that outside kants view or you dont.
Either you think it's possible to directly experience metaphysics, or you dont.

You can't empirically test it, by definition, so it depends.
Are you an empiricist?
Are you a rationalist?

Meditate and whatnot, test it for yourself.

[Anonymous No.13416917]

>>13416864
>right wing's metaphysical Oedipus complex to me.
Explain

[Anonymous No.13416941]

>>13416863
See but this is not a trad view. I agree with you, but guenon wouldn't.

If you mean the exterior forms take on a different shape by culture, then sure. However, the metaphysical truth (according to guenon) was already imparted to use in ancient times. It will not change and adjust ever, it is unchanging and eternal.

So any "new" philosophy or religion is going to be against guenons view. It even goes further that you cannot even know more than is already revealed since we are in a time (kali yuga) where new revelations dont come through.

You must get all your metaphysical realization through the decaying forms of the last few real initiations availiable.

[Anonymous No.13416942]

>>13416836
>>13416866
Thank you very much. I'll save this and return to it.
How are the guenonian Taoists? Something has always drawn me to the dao.

[Anonymous No.13416950]

>>13416864
Human beings possess a faculty called the "Intellect" or "Spirit". This faculty bridges the divide between subject and object. This faculty has been experienced by countless sages over thousands of years, and many have written down their testimony, as well as the methods by which they induced the experience. So we have thousands of years of testimony versus a hyperverbose Prussian philosopher hopped up on caffeine. I'm going to side with the former.

[Anonymous No.13417043]

>>13416942
Unfortunately theres not a ton of work done. Guenon and the trads respected Taoism, but it is sorely neglected:

- Guenons book, put out by Sophia perennis.

-Into to Taoism by Jean Cooper. Never heard of her, but shes published by World Wisdom, and shes included in the oldmeadow book below.

-Light from the East edited by Oldmeadow, includes work by cooper. Put out by world wisdom.

-Taoism by Evola

[Anonymous No.13417052]

>>13416942
I would also like to know. Like you, I too have a soft spot for Taoism, and want know what other Traditionalists wrote on it besides Guenon.

[Anonymous No.13417059]

>>13416942
>>13417043
Oh wait, apparently Guenons "Great Triad" is principally about Taoism. It's also the last book published while he was alive.

[Anonymous No.13417109]

>>13417052
See:
>>13417043
>>13417059

Insights into Islamic Esotericism and Taoism - Guenon

The Great Triad - Guenon

Into to Taoism - Jean C Cooper

Light from the East - Oldmeadow

Taoism - Evola

[Anonymous No.13417141]

Stop reading the texts of 'fumbling-20th-century-backtracking-so-called-perennials', when all their truths was fully revealed by year 600.
Read: Schelling, Schopenhauer, Pierce, Santayana, Solovyov, Bergson, Vernadsky, Cassirer, Scheler, Heidegger, Berdyaev, Buber, Gabriel Marcel, Blumenberg, Roger Penrose; if you want stuff from the actual tradition.

[Anonymous No.13417157]

>>13417141

[Anonymous No.13417249]

>>13416941
Understood. I guess I really wouldn’t consider myself trad at all, at least in Guenon’s terms.

Where does guenon specifically discuss lack of revelation in this fourth age? I find that very interesting and worth hearing his justification for this being the Kali Yuga in the first place.

[Anonymous No.13417254]

>>13417249
There are definitely revelations in the fourth age. The fourth age started in like the second millennium BC or thereabouts.

[Anonymous No.13417277]

>>13417254
Obviously I agree but Guenon wouldn’t apparently and that’s what interests me

[Anonymous No.13417279]

>>13417109
Improved chart:
Guenonian Taoism

[Anonymous No.13417287]

>>13417043
>>13417052
>>13417059
>>13417109
Did you read pic related?

[Anonymous No.13417291]

>>13417277
Yes he would. He says as much himself. I have no idea where that anon is getting that from.

[Anonymous No.13417302]

>>13417249
>>13417254
>>13417277
I guess I spoke incorrectly. Guenon did believe in adjustments during the Kali Yuga. He obviously thought Christ, Muhammed, and Buddha were legitimate.

I guess it seems like he sees new revelation as highly irregular and not likely to be you who does it.

What you should do, as an individual according to guenon, is to join a traditional religion and follow it as perfect to its tenets as possible. So any evolution of religion like what you're describing, is anathema to guenonian thought. Though I think there are allowances for exoteric cultural forms that do change.

[Anonymous No.13417313]

>>13417287
Seems syncretistic.
Jk, looks cool.

[Anonymous No.13417330]

>>13417052
In addition to his books on Taoism that have already been mentioned he also frequently cites Taoist texts like the Zhuangzi in his metaphysical works like 'Man and His Becoming' etc to show how the different traditions align on many points.

[Anonymous No.13417333]

>>13413570
Gene Wolfe recognised the importance of JRRT to the modern resurgence of traditionalist thought...

[Anonymous No.13417339]

>>13413570

[Anonymous No.13417349]

>>13417333
You're probably thinking of traditionalism, not the Traditionalist School.
These threads are for guenonianism mainly, perennialism.
There is some overlap, but radically different focus.

[Anonymous No.13417363]

>>13413570

[Anonymous No.13417373]

>>13417349
Oh! I'm a monarchist, and a bit drunk. Never mind!
:-)

[Anonymous No.13417384]

>>13414065
He also shared his wife with Aleister Crowley...

[Anonymous No.13417388]

>>13416893
>Either you think theres possible access to that outside kants view or you dont.
depends on what you mean by Kant's view.
I don't think synthetic a priori knowledge is possible, and thus disagree that any scientific metaphysics must be grounded in its understanding. however I do agree with kant that any scientific metaphysics, that is, any metaphysics that isn't a total waste of time, must be grounded by an understanding of what metaphysical knowledge is, and how metaphysical propositions are correctly evaluated. that last view is the one I was originally referring to.
>Either you think it's possible to directly experience metaphysics, or you don't.
this is besides the point, the question is about how metaphysics is to be laid on a scientific footing and thus serve as an adequate vessel for truth.
>You can't empirically test it, by definition, so it depends.
>Are you an empiricist?
>Are you a rationalist?
im a mere Peircean so far. I do have naive hopes that sellars's attack on the given will help alleviate the burden of being a peirceian, im almost ready for it.
>Meditate and whatnot, test it for yourself.
you're not helping me or your case
>>13416917
the desire to return to the safety of the waters that taught you how to swim , but now is only a stagnant, yet safe, pool to swim around in. instead of progressing to venture into the deep end, and explore, right wingers prefer to splash around in the familiar shallows.
rightism is a hugbox. sorry I made the dumb swimming allegory, I got distracted. its basically wanting to play your fathers role and fuck your mommy instead of going out for yourself. you should get it now

>>13416950
wew lad there's lots to unpack here. id rather not. this is why nobody takes your larp philosophy seriously, besides impressionable "pilled" losers.

sorry I honestly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but yall need to cut this shit out.

pic related, its me after you btfo this post

[Anonymous No.13417404]

>>13417384
no that was his father, ananda coomaraswamy

[Anonymous No.13417426]

>>13417349
Fucking modern people who need their seven billion "ism's".

[Anonymous No.13417453]

>>13415692
>rejected the idea of non-self
I keep hearing this and the confusion of non-self among Buddhists. I know A.K. Coomaraswamy wrote about it in Hinduism and Buddhism, but is there anyone else who elucidates on this point, and which works?

[Anonymous No.13417482]

>>13417388
I dont think you're going to be at home here friend. Guenonian metaphysics is about intuitive apprehension. You're the one making the claim that truth must be scientific, so you've already precluded yourself from this type of inquiry.
Rightism isnt the hugbox.

Leftism is the hugbox.

Progressivism is the hugbox.
Who wants the nanny state to take care of them? The right?

>>13417426
It's just a categorization, you think the premoderns didnt categorize things?

[Anonymous No.13417503]

>>13417388
>this is besides the point, the question is about how metaphysics is to be laid on a scientific footing and thus serve as an adequate vessel for truth.

People have come to true conclusions (by your pragmatist definition) through other means than science.
The greek who predicted atomic theory was vindicated by science and came to the conclusion with pure intellect.

[Anonymous No.13417518]

>>13417349
OP here.This thread shouldn't be strictly about Guenonianism, and the term Traditionalism can be misleading. It's more appropriate to call it Sophia Perennis, which what I had in mind when I create this iteration of /trad/.
>>13416600
>My recommendation is that you start with intro to magic volume i
I disagree with you there. ItM is still very dense, almost as much as Hermetic Tradition, and yes, Mystery of the Grail is a weird and arbitrary starting point. The reason why I suggested starting with Recognitions or Bow and the Club is because they cover a wide breadth of Evola's thought, and after reading those, you'll have a clearer idea of his metaphysics and politics, and can read whichever interests you. Even the translators of those two books agree they a good starting points.

[Anonymous No.13417541]

>>13416836
What if the only legitimate organizations are catholic churches, and I do not consider the church of this time the one and only true church, that it has lost the apotelic sucession and thus every legitimacy?

[Anonymous No.13417542]

>>13417482
>Guenonian metaphysics is about intuitive apprehension
you mean like abduction? this is still just completely ignoring the grounds on which apprehensions are determined to be true. otherwise you are left with a lot of contradictory "apprehensions'' that do not hold water, and no, your vain attempts at forced syncretisms do not make those apprehensions less contradictory to themselves and eachother.
no, i do not feel at home with your /x/ tier philosophy and the fact that you shit up other threads and attempt to spread your bullshit around is more than enough for me to try to nip this in the bud. you retards are becoming a full on malthusian crisis.
>Rightism isnt the hugbox.

>Leftism is the hugbox.

>Progressivism is the hugbox.
>Who wants the nanny state to take care of them? The right?
ha ha ha, why am I not surprised that the "metaphysical" qualifier went over your head? im sorry, you can go back in your big boy box, just don't hurt me.

[Anonymous No.13417550]

>>13417388
If you dont think synthetic apriori is possible, you're in the wrong place.

[Anonymous No.13417565]

>>13417157
Because the "perennialists" of the 20th century were less educated in physics and math and logic than a high schooler.

[Anonymous No.13417568]

>>13417541
idk, try Eastern Orthodox?

[Anonymous No.13417586]

>>13417541
Rama Coomaraswamy has a book on sedevacantism called Destruction of the Christian Tradition that is literally what you just described. I don't agree with it, but that would be what you are looking for.


>>13417565
Wolfgang Smith, a prominent Thomistic Thinker and Christian Traditionalist was a professor at MIT. Guenon wrote extensively on mathematics and has books entirely dedicated to pure math. Your generalizations do not apply

[Anonymous No.13417589]

except for eliade and rama and the new generation with smith, borella, hani etc did the first traditionalists accept our Lord Jesus as God? in the end it all comes down to this.

i read a few books by guenon (including those on dante and christianity), but i always wondered if the first generation of traditionalists (guenon, ananda, schuon etc) accepted jesus as God.

[Anonymous No.13417592]

>>13417542
The idea of comparative religion is to see what common conclusions they come to. By definition the metaphysical is beyond physics and cannot be tested in a physical scientific way. They only way to test it is to engage with the tradition and come to the spiritual apprehension.

You have stated you dont believe in synthetic apriori, so you've defined your epistemology as precluding the discussion at hand.

What really is your point?
You attempt the practices of the religion, if you're experiences dont align with what the trads describe you can disagree.

Other peoples experiences overlap, that's why theres an interest.
It's true in a cartesian sense that we could all be mislead by an illusion, but a sort of pascalian wager points towards the benefit of attempting it.

[Anonymous No.13417605]

>>13417589
They did not.
Guenon and Schuon* worshipped Allah.
Coomaraswamy was Hindu.

Guenon, I've heard, believed in the resurrection of Christ, but didnt give him primacy.

[Anonymous No.13417616]

>>13417605
in the quran there's an ambiguous description of jesus as the spirit of allah so there's that. i've seen some high rank muslims using it to please christians

[Anonymous No.13417696]

How do I properly surf the kali yuga?

[Anonymous No.13417713]

>>13417568
There's regulary a Byzantine mass nearby, but it's all in Greek (which I do not understand at all)

>>13417586
Thanks, will start reading it right away

[Anonymous No.13417800]

>>13417503
>People have come to true conclusions (by your pragmatist definition) through other means than science.
all true propositions are fallible, and guaranteed to become defunct with time, as the truth is a living thing that sheds its skin with inquiry. all humans are stupid apes trying their best to catch up to the truth, nobody has ever caught it, but we march closer, so long as we recognize that we are most definitely wrong. truth is transitory, this is what the hunters know that the agriculturalists don't.
>The greek who predicted atomic theory was vindicated by science and came to the conclusion with pure intellect.
okay, please go ahead and explain how Democritus is going to contribute a useful contribution to the philosophical interpretation of quantum mechanics.
sure we was right, to a degree that is no longer useful for our contemporary inquiries. everything contains at least a germ of truth.
however, I disagree that he arrived at atomism using "pure intellect", you are going to need to prove to me that there is such a thing. the intellect is fundamentally impure.
>>13417550
says you
>>13417592
>By definition the metaphysical is beyond physics and cannot be tested in a physical scientific way.
try understanding science before you say something like that. science is not the same thing as empiricism.

>They only way to test it is to engage with the tradition and come to the spiritual apprehension.
I don't think that counts as a test, try the pragmatic maxim
>It's true in a cartesian sense that we could all be mislead by an illusion, but a sort of pascalian wager points towards the benefit of attempting it.
its not the cartesian doubt you must contend with, its the fact that all true statements are ultimately fallible and thus only good so far as they relate to the understanding.
>What really is your point?
my point is that if you are not willing, nay, longing to completely obliterate all your influences, and previously held truths in order to grow the understanding, you do not really love wisdom and thus have no business doing philosophy.
I like the idea behind perennialism, I really do. it just pains me so to see it carried out on such crude epistemology as dogmatic metaphysics.

[Anonymous No.13417839]

>>13417800
>humans are stupid apes trying their best to catch up to the truth
Man is a mortal god, and God is an immortal man

[Anonymous No.13417885]

>>13416663
>Borella's defense is that the scholastics used aristotle to examine christianity, augustine incorporates neoplatonism, so why would utilizing Guenon be any different.
>As long as you always come back to the doctrines of the church themselves, you will be safe. Using guenon to enlighten the doctrines, not draw away from them.

That actually makes a lot more sense. I suppose as long as you don't take those teachings over the ones in the Bible, using them for 'help" can't be too bad.

[Anonymous No.13417941]

>>13417839
Mormons plz go

>>13417800
>all true propositions are fallible, and guaranteed to become defunct with time
Incorrect, it can be elaborated on and defined, but if it is true then, it is true now.

>all humans are stupid apes
I believe you are a stupid ape.

>please go ahead and explain how Democritus is going to contribute a useful contribution to the philosophical interpretation of quantum mechanics.
All science begins as intellectual inquiry, that is then tested using the scientific method. Democritus used the knowledge of his time to come to a correct conclusion. Individuals are doing this now based on current knowledge.

>pure intellect", you are going to need to prove to me that there is such a thing. the intellect is fundamentally impure.
I dont have to prove it.

>try understanding science before you say something like that. science is not the same thing as empiricism.
Then test it, try the spiritual practices to gain insight.

>I don't think that counts as a test
That's not my problem.

>my point is that if you are not willing, nay, longing to completely obliterate all your influences, and previously held truths in order to grow the understanding, you do not really love wisdom and thus have no business doing philosophy.
It is you who is being dogmatic here. All you have to do is experience it, but you cannot because you want to believe that life is meaningless because it removes culpability.

[Anonymous No.13417974]

>>13417404
Ah, so! My mistake, anon!

[Anonymous No.13417993]

>>13417941
>Mormons plz go
that’s corpus hermeticum, pleb

[Anonymous No.13417998]

>>13413990
This chart should be remade. The Jean Borella book was reprinted and is now called Christ the Original Mystery, even though its the same book to my knowledge.

[Anonymous No.13418015]

>>13417993
Are you a mormon?

[Anonymous No.13418025]

>>13417998
Anything to get people reading Borella

[Anonymous No.13418059]

>>13418025
Thanks friend. I only say that since it confused me for a little while before I purchased the book.

[Anonymous No.13418073]

>>13418059
Very welcome. I'm just glad you want to read Borella.
Be sure to check back in to these threads with your conclusions once you've read it.

[Anonymous No.13418081]

>>13417941
Why dont you admit your a sophist, don't believe anything can be known, and gtfo?

[Anonymous No.13418088]

>>13418073
Frankly, I thought even the introduction to Christ the Original Mystery was rather difficult. His discussion on the nature of religion and Hermeneutics is extremely foreign to me, even as someone who has read pretty much all of Guenon. I am finishing up some Evola now but after that I am going to tackle Christ the original mystery again. Would you recommend reading Hani before? From the little I have read on the two authors, it seems Borella was influenced by him a bit.

[Anonymous No.13418120]

>>13418088
Dont stop at the intro, he cycles between really difficult portions and really clear portions. The section on the grail is really enjoyable. Theres a great deal of Borella I dont understand due to my lacking in Guenon and Catholic Theology.

Unfortunately I have not read any Hani yet. I own his books, and plan to. I've backed up and am attempting to understand Guenon and Christianity better first.

I own pic related, it's a small book and I hope it will give me better tools to understand Borellas work.

[Anonymous No.13418124]

>>13418015
no lol, i just told you i was quoting the corpus hermeticum

[Anonymous No.13418129]

>>13418124
Cheers then

[Anonymous No.13418147]

>>13418124
Speaking of which, heres some cool guenonian books on hermeticism and alchemy

[Anonymous No.13418152]

>>13417800
Why dont you admit youre a sophist, don't believe anything can be known, and gtfo?

[Anonymous No.13418166]

>>13417941
oh wow pedantry and impertinent insults, I never saw it coming, retard
>Incorrect, it can be elaborated on and defined, but if it is true then, it is true now.
this is operating under the false assumption that any proposition is absolutely true.
>I dont have to prove it.
more like you kant
>Then test it, try the spiritual practices to gain insight.
im literally an animist
> you want to believe that life is meaningless because it removes culpability.
I literally believe that meaning is the 'living' part of life
>>13418081
if this was meant for me, you should know that I am not a skeptic, im a fallibilist. as are the majority of all contemporary epistemologists

[Anonymous No.13418195]

>>13418166
>oh wow pedantry and impertinent insults, I never saw it coming, retard
You literally started with the insults, you child.

>this is operating under the false assumption that any proposition is absolutely true.
No, that it has truth within it.

>more like you kant
By definition

>im literally an animist
k

>I literally believe that meaning is the 'living' part of life
k, sounds like whimsical bullshit.

>im a fallibilist
If you dont think most religious people are working on a definition of ultimate unknowing, you're misguided. Rationalism takes you so far, then you jump off into religious experience.

Do you really come into a thread just to type out philosophy 101 terms to feel intelligent?

[Anonymous No.13418266]

>>13418195
>You literally started with the insults, you child.
no, I started by asking how guenon contended with the copr, and you got all butthurt because you can not defend yourself epistemologically.

> k, sounds like whimsical bullshit.
says the "dude .just try the spiritual practices and see for yourself" guy
>Do you really come into a thread just to type out philosophy 101 terms to feel intelligent?
considering that you asked me to admit that i am a skeptic, when i am obviously not a skeptic, you could benifitby learning some ''philosophy 101 terms" there have been numerous mistakes you have made that i havent bothered pointing out. you should thank me for my time.

[Anonymous No.13418303]

>>13418266
>you should thank me for my time.
Thanks for bumping the thread, other than that you're useless.

[Anonymous No.13418341]

>>13418266
>there have been numerous mistakes you have made that i havent bothered pointing out.

For instance?

[Anonymous No.13418354]

>>13414368
I don't want to live in the middle east desu. I don't care how in touch with metaphysical transcendence that society may be.

[Anonymous No.13418356]

>>13418303
thus the dogmatist shows their true colors, entirely averse to the dialectic of actual learning.

I like that you don't pretend to have any reasons for your beliefs. what bothers me is your insistence that you are close to antman as you wallow in your mayo

[Anonymous No.13418485]

>>13418356
>>13418303

Well I for one enjoyed you two poster's exchange, minus the belligerence.

It raises a few questions for me; why does there need to be an axiomatic reconciliation of esoteric principles and scientific metaphysics in the first place? Not a rhetorical question. Isn't this just an exercise in futility?
AND
What (if anything) is it about Perennialism that makes it particularly easy to dismiss it as "dogmatic" as has been done numerous times in the thread? I can see how exoteric matters can be labelled as dogmatic, but aren't esoteric traditions based on a foundation of truth-seeking and unknowability? Or is the eso/exo demarcation not as clear as we're lead to believe?

[Anonymous No.13418512]

Thoughts on prayer?
What do you even pray too?
What do you pray for?

[Anonymous No.13418544]

how do i into henry corbin? he seems like a very dense and difficult writer

[Anonymous No.13418658]

>>13418544
Read the Quran, Plotinus and some of the classic Sufi writings first, especially Ibn Arabi and the early Persian Sufis

[Anonymous No.13418824]

Any opinions on John Dee? Have any of the traditionalists commented on him?

[Anonymous No.13418857]

>>13418824
They would have rightfully denounced him for materialistically promoting English imperial expansion and for indulging in the proto-humanism of Marsilio Ficino and people of similar ilk. A quick sample at the deranged screed that he presented to the Holy Roman Emperor clearly shows that he was affected by much of the same pseudo-spiritual nonsense that Guénon exposed in his excellent 1921 exposé 'Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion'

http://www.esotericarchives.com/dee/monad.htm#theorem1

[Anonymous No.13418874]

I just found out Shankara allegedly wrote a commentary on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, which has been discovered in 1952, and only recently translated in English. Does anybody have a copy to scan?

[Anonymous No.13418920]

>>13413582
This copypasta is missing Shankara's commentaries on the Brihadaranyaka and the Chandogya Upanishads.

https://archive.org/details/Shankara.Bhashya-Chandogya.Upanishad-Ganganath.Jha.1942.English
https://archive.org/details/BrahmaSutraSankaraBhashyaEnglishTranslationVasudeoMahadeoApte1960

>>13418874
It's free on archive.org here. It looks interesting, I would like to read it eventually but I'm reading some of his other stuff at the moment. Apparently some of the scholars that have looked at it and compared it to his main works say that it has signs of being genuine and no obvious things indicating that it isn't.

https://archive.org/details/SankaraOnTheYogaSutrasTrevorLeggettMLBD2006

[Anonymous No.13418928]

>>13418920
wrong link, this is actually his Brihadaranyaka commentary

https://archive.org/details/Brihadaranyaka.Upanishad.Shankara.Bhashya.by.Swami.Madhavananda

[Anonymous No.13419101]

Updated Guenonian Hermeticism Books

[Anonymous No.13419104]

>>13419101
wouldn’t hurt to include eliade’s book as well, even though he wasn’t exactly an out and out traditionalist

[Anonymous No.13419110]

>>13419101
who’s luc benoist? he’s with the traditionalist school? never heard of him

[Anonymous No.13419134]

>>13419104
Good idea.

>>13419110
I found him on the sophia perennis publishing website, so it has some credibility. Its explicitly guenonian. Havent read it, but am excited to.

[Anonymous No.13419148]

>>13418824
>>13418857
Quite a stretch to compare Hermetic philosopher like Dr. John Dee to some sort of Theosophist hogwasher.

Does Guénon count Paracelsus also some sort of pseudo-spiritual despite Paracelsus also claiming communication with Angels, Spirits, Demons, and Other Alien Beings?

John Dee's system of Ceremonial Magic did not anyway differ from other alchemists and their methods of divination.

Even to learn the methods of communication Dee used as the basis of his system: it would take probably years to only even learn the letters he used for such communication. Ritual purism, extreme obscurity. This is just example of the "Watchtower of Earth" when one is to skry the aethyrs: to even construct these as a physical temple demands more discipline, ritual purism, cleansing, prayers, rituals than even the more demanding customs of Sharia or other type of Islamic practices.

[Anonymous No.13419151]

Recommended Traditionalist Publishers:

Sophia Perennis
World Wisdom
Matheson Trust
Angelico Press

[Anonymous No.13419165]

>>13418824
If you seriously want to learn about John Dee and about his system, it is not easy to give some quick summarization of him and his system

I would recommend books such as:
The Complete Mystical Records of Dr. John Dee: Transcribed from the 16th-Century Manuscripts Documenting Dee's Conversations with Angels
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Mystical-Records-John-Conversations/dp/0738752584

Enochian system of Dr. John Dee is a total hermetic system of it's own.

The Enochian language plays big part. The Five Elements maybe even bigger part.

It is a complete, wholesome system so to speak, and to study it one would need constant "Enochian dictionaries" and other hermetic books associated to even understand what is going on.

There is some very interesting stuff left behind by Dee in British Museum etc. lots of his ritual wax seals etc. the practicioner would have to construct these himself if he would want to achieve some sort of communication with the Enochian intelligences.

Here is a video of the scrying equipment Dee used from the museum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbnUvpciM_U

The Diaries itself have a very questionable stuff, among Dee witnessing items levitating during skrying, most of these records were published long after his death.

[Anonymous No.13419178]

Guenonian Method of Metaphysical Realization

[Anonymous No.13419239]

>>13418152
We can undo all our certainty in knowledge.
But we can not escape belief.

[Anonymous No.13419432]

>>13419239
Not belief, but gnosis

[Anonymous No.13419512]

>>13417313
Highly recommended, specially for Orthobros.

[Anonymous No.13419969]

Does anybody here have a copy of Mask and Face of Contemporary Spiritualism they are willing to scan and upload? The book had a ridiculously short print run of only a few months, and you literally can't find it anywhere online.

[Anonymous No.13420005]

>>13413883
You're a larping weirdo. Nobody cares and i'm not staying for your snarky reply either

[Anonymous No.13420064]

>>13419151
Angelico Press has a lot of books. What are some of your favorites?

[Anonymous No.13420077]

>>13420005
If he's the same guy that has been employing the term "Guenonianism" then he is not just a weirdo but a dangerous person too, he is tainting the message of Guenon's works with his utter faggotry, inventing some kind of fucked up psuedo-religion called "Guenonianism".

[Anonymous No.13420085]

me irl

[Anonymous No.13420158]

>>13419178
Read the eastern thinkers that Guenon references in his works if that kind of stuff interests you, they do a much better job of explaining it than Guenon and go into much more depth

[Anonymous No.13420159]

>>13420085
Who is the guy in the middle on the left?

[Anonymous No.13420164]

>>13420159
Bergson

[Anonymous No.13420182]

>>13419151
Add Fons Vitae to the list.

[Anonymous No.13420290]

>>13417589
https://youtu.be/gJpn6t7SQzE

[Anonymous No.13420292]

>trad
You guys need to have sex.

[Anonymous No.13420300]

>>13420292
Bend over

[Anonymous No.13420467]

>>13420077
I agree. I've never heard of a Traditionalist who used the term Guenonian until this thread and the previous one.

[Anonymous No.13420492]

>>13419969
https://www.gornahoor.net/
That website has some various excerpts from it like Evola's view on Crowley. Don't expect to find the whole book though.
In general, I would recommend a lot of other anons interested in traditionalism, specifically from a western perspective, to take a look at that site. It has a fair amount of decent short articles.

[Anonymous No.13420794]

I notice Evola mentions the Aztecs and the Incas a lot in passing, but never really goes into much detail. Are there any books on native South American religion that is any good? I can read Spanish if that helps.

[Anonymous No.13420815]

Anyone here into the works of Bernardo Kastrup? I think his idealism would complement a lot of the stuff mentioned here.

[Anonymous No.13420843]

>>13420794
the book 'Aztec Philosophy'

[Anonymous No.13420973]

>>13420815
Give us the quick rundown

[Anonymous No.13421249]

>>13420077
>>13420467
>If he's the same guy that has been employing the term "Guenonianism" then he is not just a weirdo but a dangerous person too
>I've never heard of a Traditionalist who used the term Guenonian until this thread and the previous one.

Hey, that's me.
I got the term from Borella's Guenonian Esotericism and Christian Mystery.
Evola has an essay called "René Guénon and the Guénonian Scholasticism"

I've been using the term to refer to his philosophy of religion basically, in the same way youd use aristotelian for aristotle.

[Anonymous No.13421285]

>>13421249
Mark Sedgwick uses the term as well.

[Anonymous No.13421289]

>>13420158
Adi shankara?
Any others youd recommend?

I hear reading Ibn Arabi helps as well.

[Anonymous No.13421358]

>>13421249
Nothing wrong with using that term. Guenon probably wouldn't like it, but whatever. You have to differentiate between the different ways of using the term traditionalism. If you don't specify "Guenonian", as weird as that term sounds, people could think you are referring to one of the many other varieties. Personally, I prefer to just say "metaphysical traditionalism", but anyone who hairsplits over someone saying "Guenonian" is just being an uptight cunt.

[Anonymous No.13421381]

>>13421289
Yes, Adi Shankara and Ibn Arabi are the two main thinkers that he draws from the most. Plotinus and the Zhuangzi would also be good reading mateial of a similar nature although less important to Guenon's ideas than the other two thinkers.

[Anonymous No.13421395]

>>13419178
Which book is this from?

[Anonymous No.13421407]

>>13421358
That's exactly my thoughts. When I use traditionalism, people think I mean republican conservative, or amish or something.
Guenonian seems like a good signifier for Guenons exposition of tradition.

It gets especially difficult with catholicism because traditional catholic is already taken, so guenonian catholic works to mean specifically Hani, Borella, Wolfgang Smith.

[Anonymous No.13421431]

>>13421395
In an essay called Eastern Metaphysics. You can find it in World Wisdoms Essential Guenon.

I think its published elsewhere under Oriental Metaphysics.

[Anonymous No.13421481]

>>13421407
It's probably better to just call it Sophia Perennis like other Traditionalist authors used, heck even Guenon used it. The term Traditionalism can be misleading, like how the term neoliberalism can confuse some into thinking it's a political ideology instead of Capitalism on steroids.

[Anonymous No.13421502]

>>13421481
It still seems imprecise.
Sophia perennis is going to invoke reinessance hermeticism long before it calls to mind Guenon and his cadre. Which seems particularly bad because trads hate the reinessance.

As an aside, prisca theologia almost fits with the trads better.

[Anonymous No.13421516]

>>13414368
After reading 50 serious posts in a row, this was really unexpected lol nice

[Anonymous No.13421569]

>>13414458
Didn't you know? Obsessively posting roastie hate threads and commiserating upon the plight the black mans dick has placed upon the white man trad life is PEAK mental health. kek

[Anonymous No.13421578]

>>13421569
Reddit-tier post. That’s going to be a wince from me dawg.

[Anonymous No.13421741]

>>13421381
Thanks

[Anonymous No.13421743]

>>13419432
Pistis transcends knowledge, gnostic hack.

[Anonymous No.13421765]

>>13421743
This seems like a definitional disagreement than anything.

[Anonymous No.13421983]

>>13416206
Sub-Saharan Africans are not human. Studying their 'traditions' would be like studying how insects have sex, interesting maybe beautiful or useful.

[Anonymous No.13422169]

I know I’m going to get shit for this but...here goes:
How do into tarot reading? Divination is a legit traditional science from the traditionalist point of view. Not to mention that Evola has several volumes of books on “magick”. The main reason most traditionalists are against it is because such “secondary applications” of traditional principles would be seen as a distraction from real spiritual pursuits, but just about everything in our day and age is a distraction, e.g. entertainment television, news media, “hobbies” etc. Anyway, that disclaimer out of the way, the main reason I’m asking here and not /x/ is that they will probably recommend me a bunch of new age texts, and I don’t want that fluffy woo woo crap. I want an actual in-depth exploration of the symbolism and how to apply it to individual readings. Anyone know any helpful texts?

[Anonymous No.13422840]

>>13422169
Because vapid entertainment is bad doesn't make another bad thing less bad.
However, if you want a decent exposition of the Tarot in a traditional context I would recommend Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism. It is not based on divination (which is not even the purpose of the Tarot or any traditional sciences in the first place) but rather, an exposition of the esoteric symbolism. I suspect you may have not read Evola's book on Magic because it is not based on divination and both him and Guenon have routinely said that divination was a lower spiritual science exclusively used by the lower castes. Regardless, that book which I have recommended is quite thorough (going in depth on each Arcanum) and it is not new age either, considering a literal Cardinal of the Catholic Church wrote an afterword on it.

[Anonymous No.13422924]

>>13414485
>This all seems very straightforward, but whenever I bring it up people are more interested in esoteric psychedelic bullshit, with the Tibetan book of the dead, literal reincarnation, mastering the chi like an anime character, and new age. It's frustrating.

I think this is the case too. I would like to think it is more than a simple way of being or conduct but it just doesn’t seem to be the case. As I read on about esoteric stuff, I seem to realize the unifying message in most beliefs; be humble, courteous, strong in mind/body, educated, follow set of basic rules, virtue, morals, etc.

[Anonymous No.13422938]

[Anonymous No.13423374]

>>13422924
If you think the message is just following a system of morals, you're wrong. Yes, following this system to purify your mind is a prerequisite for realization, but that should not be the end goal. Do not confuse the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself.

[Anonymous No.13423392]

>>13421502
how about "larpers"

[Anonymous No.13423517]

>>13417043
>>13417059
>>13417109
Which translation of the Tao Te Ching would you guys recommend? I looked through the archives and and saw that some people recommended Hall and Ames, but I checked it out and it’s just awful. Completely trivializes the text, at least from the metaphysical standpoint.

[Anonymous No.13423520]

>>13423517
Pic related is the opening passages. Lmao, I can’t take this shit seriously

[Anonymous No.13423689]

>>13423517
I'm partial to Ellen Chen's translation. Her commentary is very good.

[Anonymous No.13423706]

>>13423689
Looks interesting. Having a look at it now. I like the alternate versions of the text she gives one after the other.

[Anonymous No.13423711]

>>13423517
Of course they trivialize the text. It's a Whiteheadian interpretation, after all

[Anonymous No.13423724]

>>13423711
Honestly, I didn’t even know that. I just saw it recommended in the archive and looked it up on libgen. I guess that explains all the “processual” jargon in the commentary.

[Anonymous No.13424017]

>>13416942
>>13417052
>>13417279
These authors aren't traditionalists per se, but Harold Roth who has translated pic related argued Taoism was originally a mystical meditative practice, and that the Nei-yeh preceded the Tao Te Ching and is thus the original text on Taoism. He was also the chief translator of the Huainanzi, which is the first, and so far only, complete and unabridged translation. Another author to look into is Fabrizio Pregadio, who is a scholar on Taoist alchemy, and has translated many texts on the subject, a few of which are first translations.

[Anonymous No.13424267]

>>13420973
He is an idealist. He believes that the “hard problem of consciousness” is a thought artifact arising from a mistaken belief in the material world “out there”. Instead, he thinks we (and other animals) are dissociated alters within a larger consciousness (like split personalities within God’s mind).

He’s also interested in religious myths and the role they play in our lives. Given that “consensus reality” is so good at evoking transcendent meta-images (see comparative religion), we may be part of the universe, or God’s, attempt at understanding the ultimate meaning of existence itself. He sees myths as the code we use to understand transcendent truths that cannot be described in language and deduced through logic.

I would read his most recent academic book, The Idea of the World to understand his idealism, followed by More Than Allegory for the myth stuff.

[Anonymous No.13424503]

>>13420292
>need
>sex
transcend my fren

[Anonymous No.13424512]

>>13413570
anybody seen Dugin's Noomakhia series?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNUKAQ61ay0&list=PLsDWunul1uS_-BR3BTxRgROHPP1K-rfDo

what do you think about his 3 different logoi of Apollo, Dionysus and Cybele?
>“The Western liberal model says: You want to oppose us? Please, you have the right; but, look: you will not want to give your washing machine back, right? The washing machine is the absolute argument of the supporters of progress. After all, every one wants a washing machine – Black people, native peoples, conservatives and orthodox…”
>“If one thinks about the metaphysics of the washing machine, to what extent it is coupled with the real values of a philosophical system, one will be able to come to the conclusion that in general, human life is possible, and perhaps even has the potential to be entirely happy, without the washing machine.”

[Anonymous No.13424527]

>>13419969
it's available on amazon.uk.co if you are a bong. it doesn't seem available anywhere else, it's not even listed in the Arktos page, do you know if they were cucked by copyright or something? i guess even if they don't have available copies they could still list the book as unavailable otherwise

[Anonymous No.13424531]

>>13420085
face should be more elongated and beautiful

[Anonymous No.13424571]

Do any of these cunts offer any practical advice for an autistic shut in?

[Anonymous No.13425354]

Bump

[Anonymous No.13425362]

>>13424571
It’s literally who their advice is made for.
You just have to be willin to get off the videogames and learn to meditate

[Anonymous No.13425383]

>>13420005
Just proving my point. Thank you very much.

[Anonymous No.13425388]

>>13420005
So why am I a LARPing weirdo?

[Anonymous No.13425397]

Elevator pitch me on Traditionalism

[Anonymous No.13425427]

>>13425362
What's the best book for actual solid usable advice? I'm about 80% through Crisis of the Modern World and i agree with much of it but i'd like stuff to apply to daily life.

[Anonymous No.13425468]

>>13418356
Fuck off Quentin

[Anonymous No.13425473]

>>13425397
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NVsyMalJXo

[Anonymous No.13425603]

>>13425362
>literally who their advice is made for
Guenon nor any of the other traditionalists are not writing to give practical advice in the first place.

[Anonymous No.13425612]

>>13425603
Evola does give some practical advice in his books.

[Anonymous No.13425615]

>>13425603
Yes but they’re writing the advice of the autist neets of primordial times, I.e. the mystics

[Anonymous No.13425624]

>>13425427
If you want Evola than Yoga of Power or Introduction to Magic.

[Anonymous No.13425639]

NOT SO FAST TRADITIONALIST SCUM.
WHICH ASCENDED MASTER ARE YOU CHANNELING?

[Anonymous No.13425674]

>If while in a railway carriage or steamer someone who has taken the first steps towards initiation wants to find his way into the spiritual world in meditation, he naturally makes efforts to develop the power of vision and seership which will bear him thither; but he perceives how the Ahrimanic world fills him with everything that opposes this striving to reach the spiritual world, and the battle then waged is intensely fierce. It is an inner battle, producing in the etheric body an experience of being crushed, hacked to pieces. Naturally, those who have taken no steps on the way to initiation are also involved in this battle, the only difference being that those who have taken these steps are consciously aware of what is happening. Everybody is obliged to undergo the battle; in its effects it is experienced by everybody. There would be no greater fallacy than to say: We must rebel against what technical science has brought to us in modern life, we must protect ourselves from Ahriman, we must withdraw from this modern life.

>In a certain respect such an attitude would be an indication of spiritual cowardice. The real remedy lies, not in allowing the forces of the soul to weaken and to withdraw from modern life, but in so strengthening these forces that its pandemonium can be endured. World-karma demands a courageous attitude to modern life, and that is why genuine Spiritual Science calls at the very outset for effort, really strenuous effort on the part of the human soul.

https://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19141228p01.html

[Anonymous No.13425706]

>>13425397
The modern world is shit and produces quantity over quality; the west has been shit since 1300 onwards.
We have forgotten what is truly worthwhile.
All true religions have an identical metaphysical core. This underlying base is called the perennial philosophy.
We are in the kali yuga and will require a cataclysm to get us back inline with divine law.
Society should be a hierarchical theocracy headed by metaphysically aware brahmin class.
The only worthwhile way to live is that of traditional society.
To live a truly worthwhile life, you should join an intact traditional religion with exoteric and esoteric dimensions.
We should want all these things because they are in line with divine truth.

[Anonymous No.13425939]

>>13425674
Steiner was an unenlightened hack and shit stirrer, he was just the Jordan Peterson of his time.

[Anonymous No.13426124]

>>13422169
Unironically the Hermetic approach. The attributions made by Eliphaz Levi and mostly reconstructed by Crowley since the Levi decks had blinds on them so as to conceal the Aleph as Zero.

Study the Eliphas Levi's Dogma and Ritual: Each part has twenty-two chapters, one for each of the twenty-two tarot trumps; and each chapter deals with the subject represented by the picture displayed by the trump.

But again, you need the correct attributions, for they are in wrong order because of Levi's secrecy concerning TARO or ROTA.

Crowley's Book of Thoth is perhaps the most complete treatise, the only switches, in regards to the original decks, are few switches based on Golden Dawn attributions, and the switch between The Emperor and the Star cards because of Crowley's Thelemic beliefs.

[Anonymous No.13426148]

>>13426124
Didn't they also switch courage and justice or something

[Anonymous No.13426160]

>>13426124
what did crowley invent that didn't exist in the Golden Dawn deck except minor changes?

[Anonymous No.13426385]

>>13425939
Some new age boomer is even calling him the reincarnation of Jordan Peterson, kek
https://normanbird.com/so-im-thinking-jordan-peterson-is-the-reincarnation-of-rudolf-steiner/

>>13425674
>don't be a coward bucko, endure modern life don't withdraw from it, wash your penis and be the best burger flipper you can be

[Anonymous No.13427673]

bump

[Anonymous No.13427868]

>>13425612
Thanks for posting this

[Anonymous No.13427898]

>>13427868
Your welcome. I was pretty floored when I first encountered that passage, so I felt inclined to share it. Even though I generally agree with Guenon, I have a tremendous respect for Evola. I feel like the deeper we get into the Kali Yuga, the more relevant his views and advice will become.

[Anonymous No.13427937]

>>13425612
Where does he say this?

[Anonymous No.13427941]

>>13427937
Cinnabar

[Anonymous No.13428731]

>>13413570
Cassius is that you

[Anonymous No.13429494]

>>13426385
Jordan Peterson is quite seriously the spiritually wisest and most competent individual living today, and you would do well not to underestimate his powers and past endowments. Your ignorant prejudices may well come back to fall on top of you tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.13429760]

>>13429494
Whatever you say, lobster worshiper.

[Anonymous No.13431642]

Is it possible to be trad without believing in God?

[Anonymous No.13431759]

>>13431642
For what purpose? Because you like the aesthetic? The whole point of it revolves and spiritual teachings and realization of metaphysical truths. If you have some aversion to 'God' because you were raise in an Abrahamic-faith following society and didn't like the religion, Guenon et al documents how much of Taoism for example aligns in key areas with Sufism and Vedanta, you could argue the same with certain schools of Mahayana Buddhism as well, so if you want spiritual realization without 'God' you could read Guenon et al and study a bunch of Mahayana and Taoist texts. If you're an unironic biological-reductionist materialist atheist though there is no point whatsoever, maybe try Guenon's books (which might make you change your mind or which might point you in the direction of certain eastern texts which would) but if you read him and eastern stuff but still cant let go of atheistic materialism there's no point and you should not even try.

[Anonymous No.13431904]

>>13429494
>dude I can't really believe I just pretend because it sets my life in order *chugs antidepressants* dude evolution dude lobsters dude archetypes
>and by the way yeah I'm super spiritually enlightened

[Anonymous No.13431999]

>>13425612
This is good advice, but I feel like Evola just uses Bourgeois as a catch all for everything he doesn't like. The upper middle class of post WWII Europe is much different than what we have now anyways, making it rather difficult to see exactly what he meant by the phrase. There are some bourgeois attitudes that are not inherently bad.

[Anonymous No.13432021]

>>13431999
Guenon also has an essay castigating the "middle class"/bourgeois, basically any people of a middling status.

[Anonymous No.13432033]

Faggots

[Anonymous No.13432069]

Does anyone know of any Traditionalists from Spain or South America? I find it rather odd that traditionalism gained lots of influence among Catholic Frenchmen (or at least those who were raised Catholic like Guenon) but literally none that I know of from Spanish speaking areas. I would've thought that the Carlists in Spain would've had some sort of take on Guenon/Evola. Is Spanish Catholicism not reactionary in the way that the French are? I know Evola praised Donoso Cortes but I don't know of anyone else and he isn't really much of a mystical/religious writer, moreso a political one.

[Anonymous No.13432077]

>>13432069
There is one guy from Brazil, but I forget his name.

[Anonymous No.13432093]

>>13432077
>>13432069
this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olavo_de_Carvalho

[Anonymous No.13432107]

Does anybody here know of a good translation of the I Ching? I found out the hard way from trying to read the Cantong Qi and the Yinfu Jing that reading the first Book of Changes is necessary study Taoist alchemy.

[Anonymous No.13432124]

>>13432077
Oh yeah, I know who you are talking about now.
Olavo de Carvalho I believe is his name. I have to say though, I was sorta looking for Spanish speaking authors and he is a bit more politically minded than religious it seems. Although its difficult for me to judge since his wikipedia page is literally just a hit piece.

[Anonymous No.13432160]

>>13432107
Unironically pic related.

Most of the I Ching, western translations, are made by academics who do not treat the texts in any religious or mystical sense. Some of the better ones are done by linguists, who still are quite ignorant, especially of the Taoist aspect to most of those texts.

Crowley spent years travelling in China, and used Chinese divinatory systems until his death.

I can recommend the I Ching by Crowley, because it is not academic treatise of Tao Teh King, but actual mystical, magical and taoist interpretation of it.

[Anonymous No.13432169]

>>13432107
Unironically pic related.

Most of the western translations, are made by academics who do not treat the texts in any religious or mystical sense. Some of the better ones are done by linguists, who still are quite ignorant, especially of the Taoist aspect to most of those texts.

Crowley spent years travelling in China, and used Chinese divinatory systems until his death.

I can recommend the translation of Crowley, because it is not academic treatise of Yi Ying, but actual mystical, magical and taoist interpretation of it.

[Anonymous No.13432198]

>>13432169
wasn't Crowley a liberal though?

[Anonymous No.13432221]

>>13432198
Crowley was occultist, ceremonial magician, poet, painter, novelist, mountaineer, bisexual, drug abuser, heroin addict, cocaine addict, psychonaut, spy, propaganda writer etc.

[Anonymous No.13432224]

>>13432198
In the "classical" sense? I guess you could make a case for it based on how individualistic his philosophy is, and his insistence on such concepts as "freedom" and "rights".

[Anonymous No.13433258]

>>13432169
Anyone else besides Crowley?

[Anonymous No.13433276]

>>13432169
>580 dollars on amazon
holy schnikes

[Anonymous No.13434610]

bump

[Anonymous No.13434653]

>>13432224
>make a case for it
Bruv, he makes it for himself. His entire aim to liberate himself from all morality.

[Anonymous No.13435867]

>>13419969
>Does anybody here have a copy of Mask and Face of Contemporary Spiritualism they are willing to scan and upload? The book had a ridiculously short print run of only a few months, and you literally can't find it anywhere online.
why is this book not available anywhere?

[Anonymous No.13436096]

>>13431642
maybe if you're buddhist.

[Anonymous No.13436603]

>>13429494
Wash your penis, bucko.