Soft Determinism

[Anonymous No.13325835]

In short, things are deterministic, but what you choose to do effects this
If you're ACTUALLY a fatalist, and not just a whiny bitch looking to blame the external for all that you do (meaning all your shortcomings, because you are a coward looking for a way out), you'll understand that things shape you, and you shape things, and those things shape you, and you shape them, etc. etc. ad infinitum
meaning that your faculty of choice and decision did not occur in a vacuum, but matters just as much as anything else

Is there any argument against this?

[Anonymous No.13326025]

>>13325835
No, you don't literally have a 'choice'. Your choice itself is an impulse which arises from biological processes you're unaware and not in control of.
Processes are deterministic = no choice
Processes have random elements = still no choice, a random event is no more a choice than a pretermined one

Yes, you can become more conscious of the feedback loop that shapes you and exploit that knowledge, but this understanding itself is contingent upon your mental capacities and external influences... You can't take an action you don't know how to take, unless it's instinct (also not a choice).

In practice, it doesn't matter that much because we can't know the future and so there's no point in second-guessing your thoughts and actions, which are a necessary part of the deterministic or somewhat randomized progression of events. It is good to understand just how profoundly we are shaped though, as opposed to foolishly believing in some independent core that is 'you'.

[Anonymous No.13326137]

>>13325835
I'm of the opinion that while 99% of events are predetermined, the faculty of free will provides us with a tiny amount of wiggle room to help guide the way events play out. There's no changing the events themselves, but certain elements leading up to the event could play out in a number of different arrangements. So the question of free will becomes a question of scope, as in, can you make enough minor alterations to the chronology such that the overall outcome is significantly different to the predetermined one? It's hard to say, given that we don't have the power of foresight, but I'm holding out hope that it is the case

[Anonymous No.13326251]

>>13326025
>impulse which arises from biological processes you're unaware and not in control of
sure, if you don't actively mind your impulses

>contingent upon your mental capacities and external influences...
hence Determinism is true

>It is good to understand just how profoundly we are shaped though, as opposed to foolishly believing in some independent core that is 'you'.
you are a product of events which precede you yet you're still an active participant in this, and shape things not in SPITE of reality, but in concert with it

[Anonymous No.13326271]

>The universe is deterministic but my actions aren't determined
>Absolutely no change in behavior
>Well, at least I still have my pride!

[Anonymous No.13326300]

>>13326251
The capacities and motivations to 'actively mind your impulses' are not under your control. They arise due to the chain of events like everything else.

Your ability to participate and every aspect of your participation is a step in the chain of events... 'You' are not working in concert with reality, you are the -product- of that reality in every way.

[Anonymous No.13326302]

>>13325835
This is major cope. If something is deterministic, it just is. You have no control over external or internal factors, you don't control what goes around or your reactions to the events. Enjoy the ride, faggot.

[Anonymous No.13326379]

>>13325835
"no"
it's either deterministic or it's not
determinism doesn't mean you don't have responsibility

[Anonymous No.13326463]

>>13326302
>This is major cope
Pretending you have no control is the real turbocope, and the most pathetic one

>>13326379
>>13326271
>>13326300
The determinism you propose imagines a chain that goes from one point to the next, beginning with circumstance and ending with you. It's actually self-aggrandizing because it makes you "special" that the world sort of "ends" with. The chain you suppose is actually circular, it doesn't begin with you and it doesn't end with you. It influences you, you process it, influence the external in what capacity you have, it all comes around.

Look, I drew a little picture on why you're gay

[Anonymous No.13326480]

>>13326463
All this cope, holy shit. But no worries, you're not to blame because you have no control over your thoughts and actions, they are just consequences.

[Anonymous No.13326496]

>>13326480
imagine actually take the position of thinking you're big and special and using this to justify lack of responsibility, instead of realizing you're part of a bigger circle and embracing responsibility in it

probably why it's the dominant belief in pseudo-intellectuals in academia and not real people with real jobs

[Anonymous No.13326500]

>>13326496
*belief of

[Anonymous No.13326530]

>>13326496
that made no sense at all

[Anonymous No.13326660]

>>13326496
He doesn't know

[Rule Britannia. No.13326661]

>>13325835
>I am a prententious faggot
All I hear, mate.
Also wrong board.

Rule Britannia.

[Anonymous No.13326730]

>>13326251
>sure, if you don't actively mind your impulses
and why do you do that? if you keep asking and follow your chain of justifications to the end, you will see that you stop at "because I want to". but why do you want to? if you say because it's good for me, why do you want things that are good for you? clearly not everyone does. it's not a choice you've made, it's just how you are.

>>13326251
>>13326463
your words, not his. there's nothing self-aggrandizing about appreciating the present moment. it's not special compared to all other moments before or after, but it's special in a way, because it's now.

[Anonymous No.13326744]

>>13326025
First post, best post.

This Anon explained it as simply as possible. OP, you don't seem to understand that, whether the world is wholly deterministic or it has some randomized phenomena, there is still no reasonable way to conceive of "choice" in the way that free will does. If the world is wholly deterministic, then you're simply a gear in a huge machine; if there exists true randomness, then you're just a throw of dice in a huge casino. These are the only conceivable alternatives, and neither seems to allow for any kind of "choice" as you imagine it. "Free will" doesn't even make sense as a concept; it's not well defined, it's gibberish. You said yourself that "choices" do not happen in a vacuum; then you should ask yourself why people choose what they choose and not something else. You should ask yourself whether it was really possible for things to go another way. But you probably just prefer to embrace your magical thinking rather than look at reality; and that isn't your choice either, it's the result of your genetic make-up and your circumstances.

[Anonymous No.13327016]

>>13326463
compatabilism is top tier cope mate. if outcomes can be effected we don't live in a deterministic universe, that's all there is to it. just because our freedom of choice is restrained to a small window dependent on circumstances doesn't mean that freedom of choice is false

[Anonymous No.13327031]

>>13326744
>the choice is between total determination and total randomness
I'm pretty sure no one who argues for free will thinks everything is totally random, pretty sure that's an incredibly lazy construction of a strawman

[Anonymous No.13327035]

>>13326480
>>13327016
>cope
Transparent

[Anonymous No.13327039]

>>13327035
compatabalism is cope mate, that's its only purpose in philosophy of mind

[Anonymous No.13327101]

>>13325835
/sci/ here. Is there anybody that formalized this kind of reasoning? Would love to read it. Btw the entire phase space of C.Elegans worms has been mapped, and the output for arbitrary input can be predicted. They have exactly the same neurons as humans, just much less. Combined linear algebra and differential equations are making exciting headway in finding universal properties of cognition, for instance that sleep and wake states are seperated by a critical point. https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.90.062714 (there is more recent work but I can't find, field is super interesting.) This all points not only to cognitive determinism, but also reducable complexity.

Also there was this really cool essay from an accelerationist/biology prof. which talked about how evolution accelerates itself as species change the environment and slowly changing species cant keep up. If anybody has the essay please post it. It had some super edgy implications on eugenics, which was interesting to read.

[Anonymous No.13327109]

>>13326025
Chaos theory dictates that chaotic systems (such as any global system coupled to weather) is only deterministic for finite time. For the weather this finite time has a timescale of several weeks.

[Anonymous No.13327150]

the universe is self-caused, but not self-determined

[Anonymous No.13327151]

>>13327101
Nice post anon, thank you kindly for the info & link.

[Anonymous No.13327189]

>>13327031
>>13327109
Irrelevant to the notion of free will; no skewing or primacy of determinisim vs. randomness makes the concept tenable.

[Anonymous No.13327217]

>>>13327101 (You)
>>13327109
https://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.122.208101
Here is the most recent article in the field, it actually has a readable press release for /sci/ scrubs. The field is super tight, and the data analysis is universal and able to extract causality.

Also found this essay when looking for the evolution essay I mentioned
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5437137/

[Anonymous No.13327233]

>>13327189
I am not arguing for free will. All processes are mechanical, and fluctuations (either quantum or thermodynamic) don't influence outcome, at least on a biological level. The interplay with environment however ensures that your life and behaviour can NEVER be predicted for more than several weeks, no matter the technology. I find the notion that our fate is ultimately hidden from us a soothing thought, and therefor it is relevant.

[Anonymous No.13327246]

>>13326530

[Anonymous No.13327267]

>>13326730
I wouldn't suppose that these actions are not determined, I believe this, but it's the NATURE of the determination I contest. I suggest that all things are intertwined, acting in on upon itself to various lengths, and though your decisions are determined, you still enact them, and that in turn alters circumstance to then effect you, etc. etc.

>>13326744
>If the world is wholly deterministic, then you're simply a gear in a huge machine
yes, and as a gear, you are effected, but you also effect other gears, etc. etc.

this is why I;m arguing for compatibilism, not a complete negation of determinism