/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13193387]

Religious "people" are not to be argued with, reasoned with or listened to.

Any argument against their beliefs is refuted with "well you can't prove it's not real", yes well done I can't prove a negative, wow so smart. An absence of proof against something existing is not proof of its existence and doesn't lend credence to the possibility of its existence. If you are religious or respect the opinions of religious people, you're a faggot.

[Anonymous No.13193399]

>>13193387
Based and red pilled.

[Anonymous No.13193413]

>>13193387
Genuinely religious people tend to be happier. Who cares if they’re being “reasonable” or not? Any reasonable person realizes the limits of his own reason.

[Anonymous No.13193418]

[Anonymous No.13193430]

>>13193413
>Genuinely religious people tend to be happier
So fucking what. Why the fuck would I care?

They're wrong and should keep their retarded opinions to themselves.

[Anonymous No.13193447]

>>13193413
Not to tip my hat, but religious devotion is not so much a choice for most people.
Stupid people tend to be happier by way of being stupid. They had no choice in that matter, either.

[Anonymous No.13193501]

>>13193387
Science disproved god because its very existence break universe's laws.

[Anonymous No.13193510]

>be me
>have regular bouts of clairvoyance, ecstatic God-consciousness, telepathic communion with extraterrestrials and Central Asian ascended Sufi, Hindu, and Buddhist masters
>read posts like these

My pity and contempt for your ilk exceeds anything you could ever understand. Have fun roaming the bardos in anguish and agony after your death, you plen.

[Anonymous No.13193517]

>>13193447
>but religious devotion is not so much a choice for most people.
If you desire it, you can have it

[Anonymous No.13193523]

>>13193387
Based

[Anonymous No.13193524]

>>13193510
Take ur meds homie

[Anonymous No.13193534]

The question of God's existence is beside the point. What's important and instructive from the human standpoint is the psychological function the belief in God serves. It allows many to keep it together during trying times when they would be otherwise unable. It helps alleviate pain and suffering and death.

No amount of philosophizing or scientific knowledge seems to result in equivalent use value. This is a pragmatistic take on the question.

[Anonymous No.13193541]

>>13193387

Talk to an intelligent religious person with a more nuanced view of god, rather some braindead literalist Bible-thumper.

[Anonymous No.13193543]

>>13193524
Shut up nigger.

[Anonymous No.13193544]

>>13193413
The Pinker Proof for the Existence of G-d..

I like it.

[Anonymous No.13193559]

>>13193510
>be me
>be schizophrenic

[Anonymous No.13193561]

>>13193534
Cringe and purplepilled.

[Anonymous No.13193583]

>>13193541
>Talk to an intelligent religious person
No such thing

[Anonymous No.13193599]

Kek.
>thank god my mommy just happened to raise me on the one true religion in the world out of over 6,000 options
Christfaggots are inbred retards and they need to go back to /pol/.

[Anonymous No.13193610]

>>13193599
>CULTURE IS BAD!

[Anonymous No.13193623]

>>13193387
Religion is necessary to control the spiritual, you can't defeat an idiots spiritualality but you can direct it to good.

[Anonymous No.13193630]

>>13193561
Unintelligent and stupidpilled.

[Anonymous No.13193635]

>>13193430
>>Genuinely religious people tend to be happier
>So fucking what. Why the fuck would I care?
>They're wrong and should keep their retarded opinions to themselves.
Someone's definitely not bitter.

[Anonymous No.13193641]

>>13193610
>religion is culture
If you believe this you are either an idiot or a hypocrite. Be intellectually honest and admit you don't believe.

[Anonymous No.13193646]

>>13193630
>why, yes, i am in fact a secular christian of the cognizant church, how could you tell?

[Anonymous No.13193649]

>>13193599
>there are infinite religions therefore they all have the same probability of about zero and I don’t need to feel guilt for not investigating the matter for myself

[Anonymous No.13193652]

>>13193610
>MY ONLY CONNECTION TO CULTURE REVOLVES AROUND SOMETHING PRETEND
you're like grown folks who play quidditch.

[Anonymous No.13193668]

>>13193599
Based. Anyone who disagrees with you is simply assblasted by it's sheer logic.

[Anonymous No.13193754]

>>13193387
Read some philosophy you fucking worm, Kant showed dogmatic atheists to be the retards that they are a long time ago

[Anonymous No.13193780]

>>13193430
You should follow your own advice you salty ass faggot

[Anonymous No.13193802]

>>13193641
>religion isn't synonymous with culture
Id accuse you of intellectual dishonesty if there was anything intellectual about you.

[Anonymous No.13193838]

>>13193754
Fuck Kant, he was a whiny faggot biblebasher and only remembered as a stepping stone to Schopenhauer

[Anonymous No.13193843]

>>13193387
Not literature.

Go back to suckin Nietzsche's dick, bugman.

[Anonymous No.13193846]

>>13193387
>claiming to know God doesnt exist
it takes faith to be a dogmatic atheist

[Anonymous No.13193853]

Every time I try to talk to an atheist on here about an argument for God's existence it usually ends with him calling whatever I said a "word salad" and leaving because they don't really want to understand. They ask questions they don't want the answer to.

[Anonymous No.13193874]

>>13193853
This is, unfortunately, my experience as well.

Atheists are just brainlets who don't realize they don't have any evidence either.

[Anonymous No.13193894]

>>13193413
>happiness
>implying consitant, sustainable concept
you must be english

[Anonymous No.13193911]

>>13193874
Don't attack atheism, because it's logically sound. Instead try to teach them how atheism hurts us all and how they have too much faith in others' ability to give up god.

[Anonymous No.13193931]

>>13193853
>>13193874
I've never met a religious that had anything but baseless arguments.
The debate is just about credibility.

[Anonymous No.13193985]

>>13193931
I doubt you've read much philosophy so I believe you.

[Anonymous No.13194004]

Summer's here, judging by the amount of redditors in this thread and the board in general. Get lost, fags.

[Anonymous No.13194023]

>>13193985
>Be a disdainful faggot
>People leave debate so I won

[Anonymous No.13194038]

>>13194023
If you don't want to be treated with contempt don't say stupid things. I'm done having patience with your type.

[Anonymous No.13194040]

>>13193387
Nice job picking the low hanging fruit. Does the fact that that's all you can reach make you an intellectual manlet?

[Anonymous No.13194049]

>>13194040
How does it feel to be on the losing side of history?

Go outside and announce to the world you're religious, they'll rightfully look at you like you're an insane freak.

[Anonymous No.13194052]

>>13193387
ok bud

[Anonymous No.13194064]

>>13194049
>losing
what is being lost or gained, exactly?

[Anonymous No.13194069]

>>13194049
I thought lit was supposed to have the highest IQ. Do you not understand what the low hanging fruit metaphor means? You gave me a generic response that could work against anything you perceive to be a threat; its sad to know that my prose was too complex for you to resist activating your reptile brain.

[Anonymous No.13194085]

>>13194049
Ironically I think you're on the losing side of history.

[Anonymous No.13194086]

I'd be interested in an hearing an argument, not for why religion is beneficial, but for why anyone should believe that god exists on a metaphysical level. If you don't believe there's an actual entity out there I can't see how anyone could honestly believe.

It's funny to hear some of the more brainlet Christians talk about finding evidence for what happened in the bible when I was under the impression it was supposed to be about faith.

One argument I heard defined god as the thing that created the universe and that's it. I guess you can't really argue with that logically but it's just as difficult to get from that starting point to sky daddy giving Moses the 10 commandment while sticking with just that fundamental axiom.

[Anonymous No.13194087]

>>13194038
>I'm done having patience with your type.
Is that your word salad?

[Anonymous No.13194096]

>>13194049
Yes anon going outside and randomly yelling at people defintely gives you odd looks

[Anonymous No.13194116]

>>13194049
Islam is growing, Islam is also strolling into basically all secular societies

[Anonymous No.13194124]

>>13194086
You will need to read dozens of theology books to understand that. But you brainlet atheists that only reads shitty postmodernist fictions can't understand why it is necessary to take time to understand the purposes of your lives.

[Anonymous No.13194139]

>>13193387
Similarly to how non degenerate atheists share a certain amount of respect for their religious fellow humans, those of religion respect the other way. It is only the degenerate of both sides who squabble in the style of this post.

[Anonymous No.13194140]

>>13194124
I hope you can appreciate how unconvincing that is

[Anonymous No.13194144]

>>13194086
God and Truth are the same thing. Or rather, God has the component of Truth within Him, or Truth has all the qualities of God.

God necessarily exists because Truth necessarily exists, because God is Truth, and no matter what the state of existence/non-existence, there will always be a truth to describe it.

But since Truth always exists, non-existence is impossible, and a cascade of existence is created, leading to this complex existence. So Truth, as God, creates existence.

Truth’s ultimate goal is to know, or describe, itself, for it contains all truths, including those truths about itself. Now to know what you are, you must know how you are perceived. This is where conscious entities like humans come in. God is absolutely concerned with us because it is through us that He understands Himself. God would do absolutely anything, whether it seems irrational to us or not, just so we can focus our attention on Him. This whole world, full of opposites and great complexity, is the pursuit of absolute Truth.

I could rationalize a lot of Christianity, but faith should come before reason, and in my case, I saw the reasons because of my faith.

[Anonymous No.13194157]

>>13194139
Fuck your respect, I piss on it

[Anonymous No.13194161]

>>13194144
>God necessarily exists because Truth necessarily exists, because God is Truth, and no matter what the state of existence/non-existence, there will always be a truth to describe it.
Just pull shit out of your ass and act like it's profound...

[Anonymous No.13194164]

>>13194157
Just know that any success you have in arguing whatever side you are on will be against someone of minuscule influence and will only serve to make you feel superior to someone for about a day, until you realize that all the people who's opinion's you care about just watch you in mild fascination like a house cat watches a slow, tiny bug.

[Anonymous No.13194180]

>>13193387
Correct and truthpilled.
>>13193413
Heroin addicts tend to be more happy on average. Do you prioritize happiness or truth?
>>13193418
Cringe. Keep larping Pablo.
>>13193501
Not sure where this is coming from.
>>13193510
There is nothing special about religious experience. Muslims have it, Christians have it, Buddhists, Hindus have it, even though their religions are very clearly contradictory. Perhaps it's just simple human psychology at work?
>>13193534
JBP fags get out.
OP: "Religion is untrue"
JBPfag: "Muh it has human value"
That's not the argument, you dipshit. Something can help people and still be factually wrong on all fronts. Inb4 muh metaphorical truths. Just give up already.
>>13193541
Like JBP? You're a retard. Please tell me how you interpret the bible. I have met fundamentalist "bible-thumpers" creationists that are smarter than you lot.
>>13193583
Wrong. Low IQ post. People can be totally wrong about something and still have high IQ. Many such examples in history, as today.
>>13193599
Not really a good argument against christianity. Whether or not there are other similar contradictory religions is irrelevant. The point is there is no proof christianity is true and hence shouldn't be adopted/taken seriously.
>>13193610
Low IQ post. Embarassing. One can criticize religion and still recognize and acknowledge the impact it had for the culture (without disregarding it).
>>13193623
The spiritual doesn't exist.
>>13193646
Based. Calling out the stupid JBP fags.
>>13193649
High IQ post.
>>13193668
What logic? Embarrassing.
>>13193754
>read muh book(s)
One of the worst arguments. What did Kant specifically say about theism? Contribute to the discussion or shut up.
>>13193846
Low IQ post. OP didn't claim he knew God didn't exist, simply that there is no proof for common religions and hence they should be disregarded as mere superstition. And that's a very reasonable position to take.
>>13193853
>>13193874
Try providing your arguments here.
>>13194004
Perhaps you are merely calling people whose opinions you dislike redditors?
>>13194040
Low hanging fruit, yet about 60% of lit at least pretends to be religious. OP's post seems fitting to me.
>>13194052
Low IQ post. Stop posting.
>>13194086
Another Low IQ post.
> it was supposed to be about faith
It can be about faith and yet be proven at the same fact. Those two things are not mutually incompatible. For example, you can know for a fact that when you bungee jump, you will not die, yet jumping still requires faith and trust.
>>13194164
Good post.

[Anonymous No.13194184]

>>13194164

[Anonymous No.13194188]

>>13194144
>God necessarily exists because Truth necessarily exists
Ever hear of Schrödinger's cat?

Also, good job making a statement that is literally impossible to falsify. Really winning the hearts and minds.

[Anonymous No.13194195]

>>13194180
>Heroin addicts tend to be more happy on average.
Really bad argument and you should know that. Heroine addicts invariably end up the opposite of happy.

[Anonymous No.13194204]

>>13194188
If there weren’t truth, then it would be true that truth didn’t exist, a contradictions, etc. Truth/Logic/Reason is the source of all existence, for any form of existence has some form of meta-explanation, and it’s this Truth that also has the qualities of God. Truth is the only thing that necessarily exists.

[Anonymous No.13194205]

>>13194195
They're happy when they consume the drug. I think it's a good analogy. Being a christian can make you happy in the certain way, but happiness isn't everything. There will be a lot of things you could potentially miss out on.

[Anonymous No.13194216]

>>13194205
>Now, to what harm will you come by making this choice? You will be faithful, honest, humble, grateful, generous, a sincere friend, truthful. Certainly you will not enjoy these pernicious delights—glory and luxury; but will you not experience others?

[Anonymous No.13194226]

>>13194140
Sorry I forgot to greentext it.

[Anonymous No.13194231]

>>13194204
I don't know if you're trying to sound like the smartest fucker in a 3rd grade classroom, but you should know that some children don't try to sound as pretentious.
Existence is the source of existence. Logic and reason are derived of it, not the other way around, and truth is nothing more than a label attached to human ideas. It's got nothing to do with shit. Every thinking thing in the universe could be wiped out and there would be no more "truths," but shit would still float through space.

[Anonymous No.13194239]

>>13194086
Going with the premise that I can only be certain of my own existence, I find it somewhat unlikely that my life is the result of coincidence. The odds of me specifically existing are very low and I'd wager that if I'd ask most atheists what they feel the odds are that God exists, their cynically low estimate would still be higher than what the actual odds of coincidence would be.

[Anonymous No.13194241]

>>13194180
You can take the redditor out of the downvote, but you can never take the downvote out of the redditor.

[Anonymous No.13194245]

>>13194231
To say a thing is logical is no different from saying that logic is the cause of that thing’s existence. This is why God cannot be separate from Truth, because then Truth would be the cause of God’s existence, unless God’s existence were irrational even to Himself.

[Anonymous No.13194246]

>>13194239
>The odds of me specifically existing are very low
what the fuck are you talking about lmao.

[Anonymous No.13194252]

>>13194204
>Reason
This is baseless.

[Anonymous No.13194255]

>>13194144
It kind of seems like you're shifting the worship of god to the worship of causality. This doesn't really substantiate a god that produces miracles.

[Anonymous No.13194256]

>>13194241
Says the man whose post is literally the downvote equivalent of 4chan "muh go back to r*ddit". Thanks for the (you) btw.

[Anonymous No.13194261]

>>13194231
>Existence is the source of existence
Why?

[Anonymous No.13194268]

>>13193387

[Anonymous No.13194271]

>>13194255
God will produce miracles if that means He will be glorified through the process. I’m merely giving the possible seed of God, the core of His nature. The very core of God is Truth, but that is not His only quality

[Anonymous No.13194276]

>>13194268
Get out more. Talk to actual people.

[Anonymous No.13194287]

>>13193387
All religious people are insane and should be locked up.

[Anonymous No.13194291]

>>13194271
God is the extension of your Ego and a way for humans to have order in their lives.

>My friend got struck by this beam of light
Must have fucked over god

>My cattle all died and i will starve if not for a mircale.
>Oh im so hungry let me try this plant
>Holy shit its nutritious and edible
Must be god sending me help finally after 3 of my 5 kids died.
THANK YOU GOD!!!

Seriously dont overthink religion but all these morons saying religion is bad are too retarded to realize 90% of the planet is religious and are too retarded to let go of it anyways.
See >>13194268

[Anonymous No.13194292]

>>13194239
There's a 100% chance of you existing, since you exist. Had we known everything about every particle and wave of energy at the big bang we'd be able to determine that you'd exist. Probability is an organic construct used to deal with uncertainty.

[Anonymous No.13194295]

>>13194256
It's not at all, downvoting, liking, sharing, these are horrible meaningless tributes. Only commenting should be allowed so that the thoughts of the tributary are made relevant and that's what 4chan facilitates.

[Anonymous No.13194301]

>>13194276
>I hung out with people of all walks of life.
Muslims, jews, christians, white, asian, african etc.
Criminals, whores, college kids, nerds, police, accountants etc.
Get out more?
Shut up faggot.

[Anonymous No.13194307]

>>13194246
There's like a million things that need to line up for me to exist.
Take only genetics as an example. There is just one combination of ancestors and sperm/egg pairs that results in me.
And you could say that if it wasn't me it would have been someone else that would have been born, but in a skeptic sense I can't use that as a starting point for reason

[Anonymous No.13194309]

>>13194245
Logic EXPLAINS existence. Things don't exist because of our logic, it exists, and we try to make sense of how. Logic supposes that the universe started with a big bang, or that the moon might have been a captured asteroid, but we don't know.
To say that "God is truth" without a shred of evidence is so astoundingly stupid that it makes bible thumpers more credible than you. You're just semantically throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

>>13194261
The "why" is the answer you people use god for. Anyone with sense will tell you they don't know.

[Anonymous No.13194310]

>>13194292
Slap yourself retard.
You just used circular reasoning

[Anonymous No.13194317]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi5EYgIAo7Q
Guys put down your manga!
8 kids stabbed in Japan this gon' be gud!

[Anonymous No.13194323]

>>13194307
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think what you're hinting at is the teleological argument. There are many debate's/refutations on it. Just make sure you listen to both sides.

[Anonymous No.13194327]

Where are the metaphysical ghosts that roll the dice that make probability real?
>>13194310

[Anonymous No.13194342]

>>13194309
>Things don't exist because of our logic
>our
Our logic is irrelevant. We will never comprehend the ultimate logic of all existence, but it exists, and it is the cause of existence. Suppose, for example, that at one time, there was no logic, and that existence popped up randomly (for there was nothing to prevent this from happening). The very illogicality that allowed existence to pup up is its very own logic, a meta-logic that explains (and causes) existence. Keep going up until you find that highest truth, the truth that contains itself and everything.

[Anonymous No.13194347]

>>13194327
You didnt get it.
You attempted to prove what you claimed with a claim.
The whole god conversation will always boil down to "its illogical but nothing says it has to be logical"

Just go to what you know.
What does god do for humans?

[Anonymous No.13194356]

>>13194291
I tend to feel rather disgusted by the explanation some atheists give as to why they stopped believing in God.

"My (insert family member here) died and then I realized God couldn't be real"

As if they've been walking around for all those years, thinking that when their best friend Billy's grandma died, she must have deserved it, but now that it happened to them the veil of ignorance is uncovered.

[Anonymous No.13194363]

>>13194356
Personally, I distinctly remember praying for a bike and not getting one. That kickstarted my 6 year atheist phase that I escaped thankfully

[Anonymous No.13194370]

>>13194363
Though desu my family also never took me to church or anything so I wasn’t really surrounded by Christian influences. I just knew that people around me believed in the God of the Bible and that was about it

[Anonymous No.13194375]

>>13194363
nah senpai god placed that bike in your garage but a nigger stole it before you realized he'd given it to you

[Anonymous No.13194377]

>>13194144
This is some next level tautology.

Also, faith - the belief in something without evidence. Good luck rationalizing that, because that's what it all comes down to.

[Anonymous No.13194390]

>>13194342
There is nothing illogical about life existing on Earth.
Flowery text will not absolve you of an improvable and unfalsifiable statement that follows neither logic or critical thinking. I don't know if god exists, but I can say with absolute certainty that you are unequivocally, unapologetically full of shit.

[Anonymous No.13194401]

>>13194377
Faith means belief or trust. God can never be 100% proven, as with all things really, so faith is required. I try to rationalize my position to those who don’t have faith, because I can not communicate faith to them by mere words, and the whole time I know that my reason may not be totally correct

[Anonymous No.13194417]

>>13194356
I just kept hammering at the idea of "if god exists i need to know why and if he doesnt i need to know why".

God only exists in your mind as far as we can prove his existence.
Any and all humans on this earth have a need to explain things and when we cant we invoke an entity that is beyond our control and imagination.

This is probably a psychological trick we play on ourselves but if its god the outcome is the same.
It makes us feel like there is order rather than chaos.

This is backed up by the fact that the more educated and more intelligent a person is the lower is the rate of religiosity.
Still doesnt mean god doesnt exist just means that the more you know the more you can explain without the need for a god.

Its like how did the stockings get full of presents?
SANTA!!!
then you learn its mom and dad and you dont need Santa anymore.
Doesnt mean Santa doesnt exist just means your mom and dad are bellends for lying to you and at the same time they are sweet for giving you such a magical childhood.

Whether god exists is really not a good question.
the question should be "if god exists whats the point of him and his creation"

Even when I was religious I didnt follow the bible though it has its merits its too clouded with bullshit or devil shit to be useful to somebody who isnt educated enough or bright enough.
Im glad people are religious because communism or some other sick ideology is much worse.

Just dont let it do the thinking for you.
>Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves for you are sheep among wolves.

[Anonymous No.13194419]

>>13194342
>The very illogicality that allowed existence to pup up is its very own logic, a meta-logic that explains (and causes) existence.
There a physical logic ruled by laws, but no spiritual logic.
Free will does not exist, thus any logic that the humans could consider or reach by themselve becomes irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.13194420]

>>13194390
>There is nothing illogical about life existing on Earth.
If there is nothing illogical about this world, then it must be the case that this world operates on logic. It could not have sprung forth unless it were logical to begin with. Therefore logic is the cause of this existence. For if it were not, then existence would arise illogically, but as I already said, even this process is guided by a meta-logic.

There’s no reason to be rude

[Anonymous No.13194434]

>>13194419
How did the physical laws come about?

[Anonymous No.13194435]

>>13194323
Dunno.
What I was trying to say is that the mechanism behind existence according to atheists (coincidence) only works if I accept that instead of me it could have been someone else that existed in my place.
And from a kind of Descartian perspective I can't really accept that.

[Anonymous No.13194440]

>>13194401
A friend of mine made this once to explain to me what a lot of conversations about religion fail to acknowledge.

[Anonymous No.13194454]

>>13194434
string theory apparently has an explanation for that but it's beyond me

[Anonymous No.13194455]

>>13194440
A simple sentence or two probably would have been better at conveying the meaning. Is your friend in the 3rd grade?

[Anonymous No.13194460]

>>13194434
The secrets and reasons of our existence exist in those physical laws. Because it's physical, free will does not exist. Because free will does not exist, spirituality does not exist, and it is thus useless to try to find a spiritual reason.

[Anonymous No.13194461]

>>13194420
Logical in relation to itself.
Its like evolution.
If you see a cheetah and its pray its weird that both are fast runners.
>Why would the cheetah not just hunt another animal?
Well within the logic of evolution the one that hunted a different animal became itself a different animal and thus isnt a cheetah hence the cheetah that didnt die of starvation became faster to hunt the same prey as to remain a cheetah.
>i know this is not really scientific but thats what you seem to be saying.

[Anonymous No.13194471]

>>13194401
>Faith means belief or trust. God can never be 100% proven, as with all things really, so faith is required.

Exactly. So why take faith, and esteem it to such a zenith?

Faith was never a virtue, it's a vice that is capable of ending human civilization. Entropic to life itself, it's what, by definition, blinds us to reality.

[Anonymous No.13194474]

>>13194455
>He doesnt do it in a sentence or two, no he complains about a superior form of communication.

[Anonymous No.13194480]

>>13194471
You are talking to the dude and you have faith that he isnt a troll winding you up.
Faith is necessary to have a civilization in the first place.

[Anonymous No.13194488]

>>13194276
you are currently using the "have sex" meme unironically

[Anonymous No.13194491]

>>13194461
I don’t see how that analogy applies. I’m saying that everything ultimately has an underlying reason for its existence, and that this reason is the cause. That is what it means to say that a thing is reasonable. If God is not Truth, and God’s existence can be explained in any rational way, whether or not we or even God understands it, then that means that ultimately, God exists because of that reason. Which is why I believe God and Truth are the same thing, since Truth is the cause of all things.

[Anonymous No.13194521]

>>13193754
Kant showed all proofs of God are impossible.

[Anonymous No.13194522]

>>13194491
Thats just circular reasoning.

[Anonymous No.13194531]

>>13194522
As opposed to an infinite line of reasoning?

[Anonymous No.13194537]

>>13194531
Point at the end of the circle

[Anonymous No.13194547]

>>13194480
This is semantics.
I'm talking about the meaning of the word in a religious context.

The sky is blue, or 2+2=4 is not the same as God exists.

Faith, in the religious setting means believing in something with no evidence for it. No proof. No sense. Taking the leap of faith.

It's what the religious argument is distilled into after all the rhetoric. And it's a word and a reason that is so lovingly adored from the font it's written in to the accent it's spoken with. Yet it is what is most dangerous to our future survival.

[Anonymous No.13194552]

>>13194547
Prove I exist

[Anonymous No.13194559]

>>13194547
>Yet it is what is most dangerous to our future survival
How exactly?

[Anonymous No.13194563]

>>13194559
Dont worry he's a 20 year old Atheist

[Anonymous No.13194568]

>>13194563
Wasn't trying to be a dick, just genuinely curious

[Anonymous No.13194573]

>>13194552
You typed and posted this message.

[Anonymous No.13194578]

>>13194537
Truth exists necessarily.
>Why?
If it did not exist, then it would be true that it doesn’t exist, a contradiction.
>why would that be true?
If it were not true, then there wouldn’t be an absence of truth.
>why must anything be true at all?
Because even the lack of any truth is its own truth.

If you can’t agree with the above, then you can’t really use reason to argue about anything.

[Anonymous No.13194582]

>>13194573
>who; You
>how; Typed and posted
this only proves you called something "you" and claimed that "you" posted and typed the message.

tl:dr you claim

[Anonymous No.13194597]

>>13194582
I did. And I might also be wrong.

[Anonymous No.13194612]

>>13194578
>I’m saying that everything ultimately has an underlying reason for its existence, and that this reason is the cause
circular

[Anonymous No.13194616]

>>13194597
yeah the point was to prove not to claim.

[Anonymous No.13194623]

>>13194552

There is no way you could ever know for sure that you aren't existing in a computer simulation.

I'm not saying that anything is provable/disprovable in any sort of fundamental way. I'm saying that the concept of faith in its religious context - the disregard for truth (in all its manifestations of open scientific inquiry), is what makes it such an immense problem.

>>13194559
Imagine what a fanatic religious mind is capable of with the means of mass destruction. Only two variables that should never come in contact.

[Anonymous No.13194624]

>>13194612
Either reason is the cause or it is not. If it is not, then the effect arose without reason. But the very process of an effect without a cause can still be described by a meta-reason that allows the “unreasonable” existence to pop up. It is impossible for anything to exist unless it has a reason, therefore reason is the cause of existence.

[Anonymous No.13194638]

>>13194623
I suppose that would be true for any kind of fanatic

[Anonymous No.13194650]

>>13194623
oooh you have a problem with the lack of education.
Thats an issue that will fade slowly.
What's much more dangerous is mob mentality.
Thats why Christianity is better than most religions since its prophet is very peaceful for the most part.

[Anonymous No.13194664]

>>13194638
Minus the motive.
>see Middle East

Also, it's relevant to the right-wing policies (ideology) on climate change. It's my opinion that, Christian's don't "believe" in climate change, more than they don't "agree" with it, if that makes sense.

[Anonymous No.13194696]

>>13194624
>It is impossible for anything to exist unless it has a reason
What do you mean with reason?

[Anonymous No.13194700]

>>13194616
And this way you want to put the claims
>The sky is blue
And
>God exists
On the same basis? That is a bit retarded don't you think?

[Anonymous No.13194701]

>>13194180
>Perhaps it's just simple human psychology at work?
Psychology as an institution and as a field of study is a joke.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/27/world-health-organisation-drops-transgender-from-list-of-mental-disorders-9698165/?ito=cbshare?ito=cbshare

[Anonymous No.13194703]

>>13194180
>heroin addicts tend to be happier
Just nitpicking for fun but have you ever read an addict’s memoir or watched a documentary on addicts? They are miserable

[Anonymous No.13194708]

>>13194650
Not sure what you mean by education.

I'm not convinced mob mentality is an antonym of religion. It's not the religion that is peaceful it's the people. If we lived by the Bible (in any sort of earnest sense), we'd be living in a tyrannical, dystopian, 1984-esque episode of the twilight zone. It's human morality, founded by empathy and solidarity learned through ~ a hundred thousand years of evolution that we owe our "morality" to. Not the Bible, or any religious text. After all, the "Golden Rule" predates and supersedes it in all respects.

[Anonymous No.13194714]

>>13194664
I don't particularly think the climate change denying movement has a religious basis.
It feels to me like an almost Marxist rebellion of the underclasses against the 'intellectuals' and 'the elite'.
Similar to the whole vaccine and flat earth stuff that has popped up over the past few years. These movements feel more like a 'fuck you' to mom and dad, rather than actually being backed by any legitimate ideology

[Anonymous No.13194726]

>>13194701
It's not a joke, it's a menace. Psychology is raising suicide rates.

[Anonymous No.13194743]

>>13193838
schopenhauer wasn't an atheist either retard he was just against Christianity and specifically clerical Christianity, read his dialogue on religion

[Anonymous No.13194754]

>>13194537
The circle is finite but unbounded. It has no end.

[Anonymous No.13194756]

>>13194714
I don't see the right wing as synonymous with the intelligentsia, or the elite. I think it is divided between the right and left.

I think that it is Christian's who don't accept it, because it has nothing to do with their religion. Climate change isn't a talking point in their belief system, they are told only of a rapture, Jesus' return, etc. Thus they ignore the possibility completely, it's ridiculous to them because if the Earth really was dying, they would have known about it, they wouldn't have been so caught off guard in the first place. IMO.

[Anonymous No.13194783]

>>13194726
From this point forward, around half of all people now deemed your (you) sexuality a mental disorder and all the negative connotations that are comprised with that.

Would you be:
a)more suicidal
b)less suicidal

[Anonymous No.13194802]

>>13194700
>that is a bit retarded
guess thats the end of your reasoning

[Anonymous No.13194849]

>>13194708
Education battles over the influence religion has.
This battle is good but you need 1 strong belief to prevent yourself from falling for something that is very cult like and new and unchecked.
Christianity is pretty much kept in check because we neutered it.
The idead that we learned anything trough empathy etc. is silly because as soon as necessity pops up your empathy goes out the door.
But if we have a set of rules and beliefs that are strong enough to at least challenge necessity you wont be a s inclined to kill the other person when you are hungry perhaps you feel watched be it you really believe this or because its leftovers of the religious indoctrination.
Religion is a tool to keep order and to spread the ideas of empathy and solidarity.
We feel like one we feel more together but we do need to practice and work on these feelings thats why sunday church is actually a very good hobby/exercise.

Most school and mass shooters that arent completely out of their minds will isolate themselves or are isolated.
Thats what makes them so irrational and anti-social.
They are outside society they are "the other" thus they can easily kill innocent people because to them they arent innocent.

the whole sjw thign calling everybody a nazi, racist, xenophobe, homophobe, transphobe etc. phobe comes from a very twisted doctrine that can only exist with the absence of a strong doctrine like religion.
im going on a tangent...

[Anonymous No.13194938]

>>13194849
>The idead that we learned anything trough empathy etc. is silly because as soon as necessity pops up your empathy goes out the door.

I'm saying we learned to be empathetic evolutionarily. It doesn't befit the survival of a species by being psychopathic. Not being empathetic is entropic to survival. Imagine yourself now unable to grasp and/or care that another has their own intrinsic existence, this would not be a genetic boon. A civilization full of psychopaths does not survive.

This is how "morality" was "learned". And look at society today, are we perfect empathetic beings? Certainly not. We have yet to uncover and grasp the inner workings of the mind, but the groundwork is there. But to think that people are beholden to doing good or evil simply due to eternal reward or punishment is not true, and horrible.

[Anonymous No.13194959]

>>13194802
My claim
>God exists ≠ Sky is blue

Your claim
>0 = 0
Thus
>God exists = Sky is blue

Now I can claim
Your claim = 0

[Anonymous No.13195101]

I remember when I was a materialist and cringe hard looking back. I feel sorry for anyone who is.

[Anonymous No.13195322]

>>13193387
>>13194086
Christ's ethics are better than anything now or in another 2,000 years. The faith he founded has been so overwhelmingly profound, it's taken over the world. Artists who either believe in God or are grappling with it make profound works, while atheists make puerile Reddit trash.

We all know deep down that a Godless humanity is a People's Republic of China, a Reddit, a nihilist antisocial ghetto, an LGBT homeless needle sharing street, a cringe.

(And yes, I should have sex)

[Anonymous No.13195381]

>>13195322
Again it's worthwhile to note that atheism was not an option up until relatively recently. Even great enlightenment thinkers had to use pseudonym's when publishing their "heretical" works. Deist thinkers that by todays standards would be fanatically religious.

In terms of ethics to a neutral observer, Christ's ethics are incredibly silly and pedantic compared to the golden rule. Japan is irreligious, they're doing fine.

[Anonymous No.13195416]

>>13195322
>Tibet
>irreligious

cringe and yikespilled

[Anonymous No.13195442]

If you were smarter you wouldn't be arguing about whether it is real or not, you'd argue more fundamental issues.

[Anonymous No.13195532]

Religion argues there is an important underlying message/theme to reality which is generally represented in the battle between heaven and hell, they try to get to the core of what is the 'purpose' of our species and our place in reality. You can argue that there is no greater meaning than simply the physical world but that is a pointless argument, you're just saying that the fabric of reality is the way that it is simply because that's what reality is. I mean, maybe but that doesn't get us anywhere, you could take the scientific approach and attempt to understand each little scientific law and work backwards to creating an understanding of wtf we are existing in but that doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere in coming to terms to ourselves spirituality in fact it seems to be doing the opposite with the increasing suicide rates. Religion in the vaguest form is the assumption that things arent just the way through 'random' chance (by things i dont mean what we see around us but the laws of reality etc).

I claim to be religious because even if I don't think there absolutely has to be something beyond our comprehension, I recognise that it is atleast as plausible as there being nothing outside what we can know and that denying religion would deny working towards a problem that we need to work towards as a species to be able to deal with these increasingly oppressive forms of control that are imposed on us inevitably through the industrial complex and technological progress. I identify as a Christian because I feel like the most important parts of reality lie in the dichotomous nature of what we experience, christianity represents this most succinctly with heaven and hell, energy vs space, conscious vs nonconscious, internal vs external. While I think other belief systems have a place in our world, I also believe that there are not enough Christians in the world anymore so I put my money where my mouth is. Religions are real in the sense of providing people with very functional starting points in terms of morality and direction for operating in society and making us all better off.

I know you will say that this is all irrelevant and it just matters whether they teach of literal events in history but you are coming to that problem from a starting point that they are trying to be literal. I'm saying that they are real in the sense that there are certain belief systems that are really more functional than others in the world and specifically belief systems that better suit humanity's progress as a whore more than others and it is a real fact of reality that it is beneficial to our species to spread them without question to some extent. They are really good starting points for people. There are really a lot of things which can be discretely defined in two distinct forms. There are really things we dont know and cannot even begin to know literally without looking at general patterns in what manifests itself in reality and human experiences/feelings.

[Anonymous No.13195545]

>>13193387
>Religious "people" are not to be argued with, reasoned with or listened to.
To be honest, you could probably apply this to atheists. Agnosticism is the way to go.

[Anonymous No.13195566]

>>13195532
>Religion argues there is an important underlying message/theme to reality which is generally represented in the battle between heaven and hell
Falling for the dualist jew this hard.

[Anonymous No.13195568]

>>13195545
Yes, used to believe this, but it's the standpoint of someone who's unwilling to completely breech the subject.

As Dawkins quipped, "There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

[Anonymous No.13195577]

>>13195568
whoops
*breach

[Anonymous No.13195590]

>>13195322
Japan is definitely not non-religious.

[Anonymous No.13195600]

>>13195532
Rather than even thinking about touching this, go on YouTube and spend a couple hundred hours watching religious debates with:

Christopher Hitchens
Sam Harris
Lawrence Krauss
Richard Dawkins
etc.

They all have discussions with the most prestigious religious apologists/intelligentsia and will give you a much sharper argument to convey.

[Anonymous No.13195607]

>>13195590
Fair enough, but their beliefs on "religion" as we know it are completely different. It's a culture more than a theism.

[Anonymous No.13195614]

>>13193544
Pinker reminds me of white chocolate with strawberry bits

[Anonymous No.13195641]

>>13195600
I have, the main reason the argument isnt as sharp as possible is because it is insanely complex for good reason and I don't care enough about imposing my beliefs on others to work to refine it. OP should probably take your advice though as he seems to let this topic bother him despite his entire argument just being that they arent literal accounts of history.

[Anonymous No.13195654]

>>13195607
>It's a culture more than a theism.
The same goes for most eastern religions.

[Anonymous No.13195660]

>>13193413
>religious people tend to be happier
you have any sources to back that up?

[Anonymous No.13195672]

>>13195568
The problem with that analogy is that fairies existing in the bottom of a garden would be meaningless to us given that we couldn't prove their existence, they would have to be beyond microscopic and have no external effects on reality. God existing would be meaningful to us even if we could never prove it, because we have this fundamental desire for purpose, explanation and meaning. Acting like fairies dont exist presumably will never have consequences, you might step on a few but who knows if you can even kill them. Acting like god doesn't exist will change a lot so it is worth leaving the possibility open that he might exist and consider what that could mean.

[Anonymous No.13195679]

>>13195641
I don't know if this will come off as a compliment or insult but you sound like a young Jordan Peterson. IMO missing the forest for the trees sort of religious pedantic esoteric musings. In any case, I think what you're trying to do is rationalize religion through some sort of pragmatic sense. As if without religion there can be no peace or progress.

But simply look at the enlightenment, what it stood for and what it did. Look at the future "moral" progress made *in spite of* religion. Isn't it odd how religion is always struggling to catch up, fighting tooth and nail?

[Anonymous No.13195699]

>>13195672
Take another analogy.
Are you agnostic when it comes to any other countless religions? Take Islam. Recognizing or not recognizing Mohammed as the true prophet would be "meaningful" in your sense would it not?

Agnosticism is simply a dialectic position which has nothing to do with meaning or purpose.

[Anonymous No.13195735]

>>13195679
I think anyone should take it as a compliment to be compared to someone with an IQ of around 150 after a short exchange even if their IQ was 190 so i'm not sure why you would be worried about it coming off as an insult.

Yes, it is odd, it shows some very powerful drive by humanity to look at the unknown and our purpose in the world.

I think we disagree about the cause and effects of the enlightenment but that is irrelevant. I'm just saying that atheists disproving events literally happening will have near zero effect on the people acting as if they literally happened.
An atheist can believe two things, either that the stories are worthless and holding back society or they have pragmatic benefit but they're just literally false. Which are you?

[Anonymous No.13195754]

>>13195699
Agnosticism is only a relevant word for someones strength of belief in either theism and atheism and not a meaningful descriptor for someones belief in a specific religion

[Anonymous No.13195772]

>>13195735
I'm probably not someone best suited for your conversation. I don't care if religion is useful or pragmatic because I think that the truth infinitely transcends it; I think that the pursuit of truth, regardless of it's utility or how it makes you feel is better than any religious epiphany or declaration.

With that being said, I don't consider myself some sort of cold materialist scientist. I would claim some sort of spiritual monism. If you feel spiritually exhumed, I would highly recommend Alan Watts. He's a good next step.

[Anonymous No.13195779]

>>13195754
I'd agree it's a relevant word for strength of belief. But don't forget that all our meaningful descriptors are just words.

[Anonymous No.13195782]

Justifying a belief in the existence of God with pragmatic arguments isn't going to cut it ; and it's taking the easy way out.

Justify it with a a priori / a posteriori / etc... argument or don't bother.

Also don't watch dogshit pseud like Hitchens or Krauss.

I suggest this debate between Russel and Copleston

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz2GjKPbQds

[Anonymous No.13195791]

>>13194460

3 non-sequitur in a row

good job anon

[Anonymous No.13195799]

>>13195772
What do you mean by truth then? you think it's true that god doesn't exist?

Religions are essentially just a prepackaged set of morals, how could you look at whether ways of operating in the world are true without a pragmatic lens? I know Sam Harris has been desperately trying lately to get at this but I think he is failing at this problem, that's not to say his attempts and insights arent very meaningful though.

[Anonymous No.13195828]

>>13195782
The problem is all atheists tend to define the priori's of the religious as pragmatic even if they don't. You'd have to have a whole argument on what is pragmatic first.

[Anonymous No.13195833]

>>13195782
Hitch and Krauss do use a priori and/or a posteriori arguments. What else would they be using and what is this etc. you mention?

And as "youthful" as the OP's post is, it touches on the a priori concept that Bertrand Russell espoused himself with his "Russel's teapot" analogy.

[Anonymous No.13195839]

>>13193387
Who are you talking to? Fuck off if you're not discussing literature. Religiousfags here discuss literature, you are not.

[Anonymous No.13195864]

>>13195772
>i think truth is better
pragmatic argument against pragmatism

[Anonymous No.13195873]

>>13195799
>What do you mean by truth then?
Nothing fancy. The attainment of facts, hopefully with a certain Socratic humility knowing how feeble our understandings.

>you think it's true that god doesn't exist?
I don't think it's an important question in the 21st century anymore. All the arguments for religion have been used, there are different rhetorical angles to use but the topic has become uninteresting in regards to truth. The priests have become the philosophers have become the scientists.

I don't believe in objective morality, and at the same time I have no fear of that - maybe that's where we differ. And I'd agree Sam Harris can get caught in little logical ironies that don't do him any favors. But the problems are IMO due to semantics; the words we have at our disposal to convey these moral ideas. So when he uses a word like "purpose" or "meaning" it's hard for us to shake the theological connotations without seeing a double standard, irony or paradox.

[Anonymous No.13195906]

>>13195864
Well, I'll be clear, as it's just word play.

I'm saying that, in my opinion, in the long run, it's better that we seek truth more than we seek contentment, peace or some sort of practical satisfaction. I don't care as much if something makes me feel good as much as if it's true.

[Anonymous No.13196095]

>>13195381
>In terms of ethics to a neutral observer, Christ's ethics are incredibly silly and pedantic compared to the golden rule
>When asked which is the greatest commandment, the Christian New Testament depicts Jesus paraphrasing the Torah: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," before also paraphrasing a second passage; "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Most Christian denominations view these two commandments as, together, forming the core of the Christian religion
>Japan is irreligious, they're doing fine
Ah yes, anime and virginity and rising militarism/nationalism and whaling - after being just one generation ago one of the most wicked and terrible nations possible (with support from Zen Buddhists)

& I shouldn't even have to bring up how every Atheist State has been a nightmare, the Nazi's anti-Christianity, and Islam.

[Anonymous No.13196108]

>>13193413
Every Jehova's Witness I've ever met has this creepy air about them as if they are forced to be happy. Their presence disturbs me.

[Anonymous No.13196113]

>>13196108
american christians are insane

[Anonymous No.13196139]

>>13196113
And there are so many of them

[Anonymous No.13196163]

>>13193447
>Stupid people tend to be happier by way of being stupid. They had no choice in that matter, either.
Wrong. Low IQ is strongly correlated to depression, GAD and other mental disorders. Being happy and dumb is a meme.

[Anonymous No.13196171]

>>13196163
Pic related is high IQ or low IQ? I can’t tell which