/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.12975838]

Was anyone else duped by people like JP that Marxism and Communism implies an "equality of outcome"? I'm a STEMcel so I never had any formal humanities training but now I get that the abolision of class distinctions merely produces equality of opportunity. There is also a Lenin essay debating some Liberal professor in 1904 on this point.

[Anonymous No.12975846]

>>12975838
yeh who knew that capitalist media would brainwash people to believe in capitalist lies. Just read Das kapital or even essays by prominent leftists.

Just dont be that guy defending capitalism.

[Anonymous No.12975847]

>>12975838
Normalfags seem to think "communism is when every1 gets paid da same." I remember being taught this about the USSR and Eastern Bloc in middle school here in the US.
>communisn doesnt wprk becuz it is when a doctor and farmer get paid da exact same wage

[Anonymous No.12975876]

>>12975838
>Communism
>implies
Dude, gommunism is just an idiotic fantasy from the 19th century. It's not even wrong, it's a literal fantasy with nothing of substance to back it up.
If you're talking about actual, real-life implementation of Marxit theories, then look up USSR wages.

[Anonymous No.12975892]

>>12975876
Russia was better under the USSR than capitalism, Now all the wealth is owned by jews you dumb fuck.

[Anonymous No.12975921]

>>12975846
I just wonder if it isn't the actual capital using the people now to sustain itself now. It's like it's alive and brainwashing people.

[Anonymous No.12975928]

>>12975838
because actually existing current marxists are retarded and mix theory with propaganda until they start believing the propaganda

[Anonymous No.12975932]

>d-dude, it'll totally work! It just never has happened and fails every time. f-fake communism

[Anonymous No.12975934]

>>12975838
marxists don't make it easy themselves to decide what's actually marxism: Richard D. Wolff always shills for Mondragon as a cooperative model but he fails to note that Mondragon was founded by catholic distributists who have a completely different conception of man than marxists do

[Anonymous No.12975935]

>>12975932
cringe post. cringe image. Go defend your jewish pyramid scheme elsewhere

[Anonymous No.12975938]

>>12975928
Are there any noteworthy contempory marxists other than David Harvey? What the hell do people even mean when they mention "marxists".

[Anonymous No.12975937]

>>12975892
if it was so good it shouldn't have collapsed

[Anonymous No.12975944]

>>12975937
>bro capitalism holds itself up!
>also capitalism, prints 6 trillion in the US and 2 trillion in europe
>Keynesian economics on drugs everywhere
yeh pure capitalism holds itself up all right.

[Anonymous No.12975945]

>>12975938
>David Harvey
barely a marxist

Richard D. Wolff, Jacobin Mag writters, Fredric Jameson, Alain Badiou, literal retards on the internet

Zizek is just a normie globalist, soc dem berniebro at best

[Anonymous No.12975946]

>>12975944
wtf are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.12975948]

>>12975938
>What the hell do people even mean when they mention "marxists".
often they just mean jews. but saying marxists makes it seem acceptable. It has to be a dog whistle because marxists dont even know who they're talking about. or the right is making up enemies to seem under attack

[Anonymous No.12975958]

>>12975892
>comparing planned and free maket economies by thier nominal GDP
Yep, this guy is retarded. Not to mention that said planned economy's crisis caused huge socio-economic collapse that lasted from 1991 to 2001 and it's consequences last to this day.

[Anonymous No.12975962]

>>12975932
The 1920s Soviet Union was based af.
Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.12975967]

>>12975934
>fails to note that Mondragon was founded by catholic distributists who have a completely different conception of man than marxists do

In what way is Catholicism indivisible from their model?

[Anonymous No.12975968]

>>12975946
You said the USSR was so good it shouldn't have collasped. So i showed how capitalism routinely gets close to collapse. How hard was that to understand? Hell even mainstream economists use the point I just made

[Anonymous No.12975972]

no I'm not low IQ or non white enough to ever be duped by a self help salesman

[Anonymous No.12975974]

>>12975935
Solid argument. Spoken like a true neet neckbeard. Oh, it's like clockwork
>>12975962
Look at them now

[Anonymous No.12975975]

>>12975958
The USSR stopped existing in 1991. It switched to a free market. The free market caused the collapse.

[Anonymous No.12975979]

>>12975974
>Oh, it's like clockwork
>says "its not real communism" mockingly
>calls others like clockwork
Why do facebook posters come here. you're probably a boomer as well. Dont worry we'll work for your shitty pension untill we die

[Anonymous No.12975983]

>>12975979
>Still no argument
Retarded faggot spews more nonsense. Keep seething sperg

[Anonymous No.12975986]

>>12975838
Why would I ever choose communism over national socialism?

[Anonymous No.12975993]

>>12975838
Peterson “””vs””” zizek was hilarious
>Peterson reading the communist manifesto (his first and only source on communism) for the first time since he was a pseudo intellectual 18 year old
>completely unable to make sense of it
>concludes with neoliberal stats poached straight from Peven Stinker’s twitter feed
Ouch!

[Anonymous No.12975995]

>>12975986
NS isn't a real economic system, they put a literal centrist Liberal in charge of the economy and rolled with normie vanilla capitalism.

[Anonymous No.12975996]

>>12975975
The USSR literally collapsed. It went financially, socially and morally bankrupt. But of course it had nothing to do with the planned sconomy, right?

[Anonymous No.12976000]

>>12975983
>Retarded
>sperg
>faggot
>spews
>seething
You can use words that aren't buzzwords here. we can't upvote or like your posts.

[Anonymous No.12976005]

>>12975986
Because commies beat the shit out of them?

[Anonymous No.12976006]

People doubting how badly Shock Therapy in post-USSR went as if the population didn't literally try vote to return to Communism in 1996, leading to Clinton and the oligarchs fixing the election for Yeltsin

[Anonymous No.12976008]

>>12975967
marxism think people are constituted by their economical position in the materialist production societal model, catholics believe man is a fallen being and possesses an immortal soul granted by god

distributists believe the central building block of society should be the family in accordance to God's law. Marxists literally wrote The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State

[Anonymous No.12976011]

>>12975968
what does that have to do with the USSR? the USSR wasn't capitalist

[Anonymous No.12976015]

>>12976005
zerg rushed them

[Anonymous No.12976019]

why did they execute the royal family

[Anonymous No.12976022]

>>12976008
But how does that have any weight on the economic system in place, it's just a bunch of nonsense.

[Anonymous No.12976024]

>>12976022
are you lowkey retarded?

[Anonymous No.12976034]

>>12976005
Lol
>>12976015
This

[Anonymous No.12976035]

Based Christmas Lenin.

[Anonymous No.12976051]

>>12976008
That's just the metaphysical background, I'm asking why couldn't the practical model be transposed onto a secular company. You haven't answered the question.

btw can an atheist, protestant or a muslim be hired by Mondragon or is there discrimination in place?

[Anonymous No.12976416]

>>12975938
Your local tranny at the community college

[Anonymous No.12976456]

>>12975932
>fails every time
It worked wonders in USSR, China
>f-fake communism
That's what capitalists say when it comes to China

[Anonymous No.12976477]

But I don't get it. In social democratic societies you already have equality of outcome.

I'm poor and live with my single mom on welfare and I'm finishing law school in a year. I don't see how the most upper class here would have a better chance? Sure they would live more comfortably but in the end we would both be lawyers in the same timeframe if we both did the same work for it.

Accessible education (doesn't even have to be free) eradicates all inequality of outcome between classes.

[Anonymous No.12976491]

>>12976477
>Accessible education (doesn't even have to be free) eradicates all inequality of outcome between classes.
I'd say it ensures equality of opportunity. in society with unequal education, they lack this sort of equality

[Anonymous No.12976498]

Communists have a million different ideas on what communism, and even capitalism mean.

[Anonymous No.12976513]

>>12975892
Wanting to protect people's income is fascist though, which is why the USSR lost all its revolutionary potential.

[Anonymous No.12976514]

>>12975838
>I'm a STEMcel
Then you have nothing to worry about. Marx and communist theories are for NEETs who refuse to better themselves

[Anonymous No.12976516]

How do i delete these threads about Peterson and Zizek? Is there an app?

[Anonymous No.12976522]

>>12975838
1914* you probably read the thread in which i was arguing this with like 5 other people

[Anonymous No.12976527]

>>12975945
>Richard "co-ops are socialism" Wolff
>Jacobin
>marxist

[Anonymous No.12976530]

>>12976477
>In social democratic societies you already have equality of outcome.

[Anonymous No.12976538]

>>12976530
nice argument

[Anonymous No.12976539]

>>12976491
>in society with unequal education, they lack this sort of equality
right, but I'm saying that you don't need to go full Marxist to achieve equality of opportunity, so what is the point of trying to go all the way to the left when slightly left of center gives lefties the same preferred results.

[Anonymous No.12976540]

>>12975945
I don't entirely hate the idea of turning Notre-Dame in to a Protoss temple but I can't help but feel that this suggestion is made only cause no one can be fucked to do the stonework required to restore it.

[Anonymous No.12976541]

>>12976516
Simply report them for being offtopic, and then kill yourself for being a whiny tattletale

[Anonymous No.12976546]

>>12976538
>asserted without evidence
>nice argument

[Anonymous No.12976547]

>>12975838
Marxist theory (Communism through a centralized phase of Socialism) aside,
note that Communism doesn't even have money anymore.
Any discussion on what Communism would mean (e.g. with regards to "equality of outcome") should reflect on that first.

[Anonymous No.12976553]

>>12976530
Dude I'm living in one now and personally experiencing equality of opportunity. The only people left behind here and the extreme cases of very low IQ or extreme laziness/bad choices. And even then they could just live off welfare until they die.

I'm not saying a social democracy is utopia, I'm just saying you don't need to aim far-left if equality of opportunity is what you wanted.

[Anonymous No.12976554]

>>12976477
Social democracy/equality of 'outcome' doesn't solve the problem of cyclical crises, imperialist competiton, and the law of the tendency of the rage of profit to fall. Also, class isn't determined by income but your relation to the production process. You might seem equal to the ruling class but they stiill exist, and still wield much power in the state apparatus, which they will use to slowly undo social democracy, an ingoing process in my country.

[Anonymous No.12976559]

>>12976546
If you have access to the internet and free time to shitpost wojaks you only have to blame yourself for not achieving anything.
The internet is the greatest equalizer, you have access to more information than the wealthiest person on earth 50 years ago. If you get to the point where you complain about life in a 1st world country, its entirely your fault. you are either extremely dumb or lazy

[Anonymous No.12976561]

>>12976051
Because a secular model is only able to recognize material benefits. A religious model can supplement a lack of material growth with spiritual growth and other vague things that the people in a secular model have been brainwashed into seeing as a con. The secular model by definition has to continually grow it's material wealth to be seen as successful (feeding into the capitalist machine), while the religious one doesn't.

[Anonymous No.12976565]

>>12976559
>asserted without evidence
>durr search engines exist bro just look it up
ok this is getting good now

[Anonymous No.12976568]

>>12976565
eventually you will realize some people just cant be helped
keep posting wojaks until then

[Anonymous No.12976577]

>>12976547
This is impossible to achieve post-industrial revolution. The cultural shift towards wage-labour and being a cog as long as you get paid enough to survive (an easy way out of hardship, also a trap who would have thought) has already happened and became a core part of society.

To reverse that cultural revolution you need a massive catastrophe to end that system because any natural step away from it will seem like a net-negative.

post-CME global communism when?

[Anonymous No.12976582]

>>12975892
>GDP
>prints own money
>sets all wages
>sets all prices
>wow look at this volume of nominal cash transfers, these guys must be rich

[Anonymous No.12976588]

>>12976559
what's up with idiots online making false claims and then, when someone asks for evidence, they call you retarded and tell you to look it up?
people can't evidence for something that literally doesn't exist.

>complain about life in a 1st world country
who was doing that? what are you talking about?
>you are either extremely dumb or lazy
literally look in a mirror

[Anonymous No.12976593]

>>12976568
>durrr i refuse to find evidence for my claims i refuse it exists i know it exists but i refuse
every /lit/ argument of all time

[Anonymous No.12976601]

>>12976577
I don't advocate Communism.

(I advocate a money-less civic-virture based stratified confederation alla Star Trek, but based on that story it needs a WW3 and a replicator.)

[Anonymous No.12976603]

>>12976554
>Also, class isn't determined by income but your relation to the production process.

That is a good point. I never thought of it like that. Even if I made 150k a year my employer and my government wields massive power over me which they will use if I step out of line (in their opinion).

Good points, do you have some /lit/ to recommend (besides the Manifesto)?

[Anonymous No.12976609]

>>12976588
>who was doing that? what are you talking about?
People in this thread screeching autistically about inequalities

>>12976593
If people like you spent just 10% the time you take to screech online to learn a skill and better yourself you would have less problems in life

[Anonymous No.12976613]

>>12976601
Based and obscurepilled

[Anonymous No.12976625]

>>12975838
Ok then what does abolishing classes distinctions mean and how do you achieve it?

Don't be some vague sophist faggot, go into actual specifics

[Anonymous No.12976643]

>>12976609
>If you get to the point where you complain about life in a 1st world country, its entirely your fault.
>People in this thread screeching autistically about inequalities
Oh so you admit it's a strawman nice. Predictable you just ignored the rest

[Anonymous No.12976647]

>>12976609
>WAHH LEARN SOME SKILLS BRO I WONT WIPE UR ASS FOR YOU PROVIDING EVIDENCE FOR A CLAIM I MADE

[Anonymous No.12976665]

>>12976603
If you wanna start extremely basic, Introduction to Marxism by Emile Burns is a decent intro to the main bits of Marxism - dialectical materalist philosophy and Marxian political economy, while also making a few points both for and against the USSR its quite old now lol

If you wanna go staright to Marx, try Wage Labour and Capital and Value, Price, and Profit are short and good for economic stuff

If you want a short but in depth intro to socialist history/praxis, try The Civil War in France, where Marx talks about the Paris Commune, though a lil bit of background knowledge would help

[Anonymous No.12976671]

>>12976603
Oh and also State and Revolution by Lenin for Marxist theory of the state, gl anon

[Anonymous No.12976714]

>>12976671
>>12976665
Thanks, I'll check them out

[Anonymous No.12976721]

>>12976665
>serious post imploring me to read critically
What no bring back the larping marxists this isnt fun

[Anonymous No.12976741]

I'll link this short essay by Lenin where he explicitly rejects 'equality of outcome' for anyone in the thread who's unaware of it, might come in handy.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/mar/11.htm

[Anonymous No.12976745]

>>12976721
Fun screeching time is over Tovarisch, get reading

[Anonymous No.12976773]

>>12976561
> A religious model can supplement a lack of material growth with spiritual growth
In what ways does the company do that?

>The secular model by definition has to continually grow it's material wealth to be seen as successful (feeding into the capitalist machine), while the religious one doesn't.
Even the religious model has to, otherwise it will get steamrolled by competition.

[Anonymous No.12976794]

>>12975847
Not even the idea that they should get different wages (to each according to their needs) is theoretically substantiated by most capitalist kids attacking Marxism. That's pretty much why I will larp that idea when somebody argues with me to see if they can actually substantiate it.

[Anonymous No.12976797]

>>12976745
Based Stalinposter

[Anonymous No.12976859]

>>12976456
>b-but you see it does work, look at China
I love how you creatures now latch on to a hyper capitalist economy with literally the worst working conditions imaginable and use it to prove how well communism works. Really gets the sparrows flocking.

[Anonymous No.12976889]

Friendly reminder /leftypol/tards are diaperfags, furries, and trannies, and would be the first to go to the uranium mines in USSR.

[Anonymous No.12976895]

>>12976859
>Fastest rise in living standards in human history
>responsible for 71% of global poverty reduction since the 80s
>huge swaths of the industrial core of the economy nationalized/planned, including energy, banking, airlines, telecommunications, oil, television, tech, media, agriculture
>mandatory board representation for CCP officials in 'private' companies and heavy regulation
>unaffected by the global financial crisis

but they allowed markets in a necessary compromise with the neoliberal global order to develop their country out of poverty, thus instantly transforming into a capitalist economy so neolibs can take credit for everything they do except when it suits bourgeois economists to call them socialist when people point out bad things at which point they magically transform back into the USSR

meh

[Anonymous No.12976908]

>>12976859
>Chinese socialism is now hyper capitalism
Epic bro
We aren’t talking about present day China nigger

[Anonymous No.12976913]

>>12975921
Go to bed Nick

[Anonymous No.12976918]

>>12976889
wtf I hate communism now

[Anonymous No.12976950]

>>12976859
>I love how you creatures now latch on to a hyper capitalist economy
Confirmed for not knowing shit about China's economy + being ultraleft.

[Anonymous No.12976968]

>>12975838
I've read Marx, and while he never specifically says "Everyone will earn the same income", he does implicate that those who have more are bad, and that those who have less should over thrown and kill those with more, and then the previous lowest class will become the only class and that from there (and this is where he is extremely vague) things will become great, essentially implying everyone will be equal.

[Anonymous No.12976971]

>>12976477
It's just not possible. There have been multiple studies that show first born children are wildly more successful than than their younger siblings. This is probably because they benefit from the undivided attention of their parents. If children of the same parents growing up in the same house aren't equal, why the hell should we expect to see it in greater society?

[Anonymous No.12976989]

>>12975838
Retarded college professors and prole children who get into schools on diversity quotas are to blame for this; they repeat century-old agitprop as fact, and who are you to tell them any different? you're just a white male.

[Anonymous No.12976999]

>>12976968
That is only if "more" of what they have is the means of production.

[Anonymous No.12977004]

>>12975975
> The USSR stopped existing in 1991
For YOU and everyone outside of former ussr republics, it's no more a threat and not in the headlines of news paper articles, but it still exists in people's brains, and obsolete soviet infrastructure is still halfass working. Collapse of USSR is long playing event, same with any other big event, like WW2 was caused by WW1.

[Anonymous No.12977072]

>>12976015
so you're saying nazis, in all their military aryan genius, got beat by the most braindead military operation of all time?

[Anonymous No.12977110]

>>12976968
>I've read Marx
No, you've only read the communist manifesto obviously, because dialectical materialism does not bother itself with morality, good or bad, AT ALL.