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12896497 No.12896497 [Reply] [Original]

What did Baudrillard mean by this?

>> No.12896524

>>12896497
That fascism helps fill the God shaped hole in the west's collective heart.

>> No.12896535

>>12896524
God isn't real lmao

>> No.12896541

>>12896535
Irrelevant. The point is it fills a social and psychological need that as a modern society we have not found a replacement for.

>> No.12896597

>>12896541
hey sheeple God is a fiction

>> No.12896621

>>12896497
source?

>> No.12896637

fascism might be illogical and ridiculous, but all they're trying to do is bring us back to reality

>> No.12896659

>>12896637
worked for Frankl desu

>> No.12896664

>>12896637
it says fascism was a resistance to the real, they were trying to destroy reality

>> No.12896668

>>12896664
It says fascism was a resistance to confusing of the real and the rational. Learn to read.

>> No.12896679

>>12896664

he's not saying that, the resistance is to "something much worse"/confusion of the real and rational/hyperreality

>> No.12896683

>>12896497
why do academics and philosophers love over-analyzing and bashing fascism?
it really isn't that hard
people are hungry, miserable and angry, don't have faith in the existing systems that have failed them (liberal free market capitalism, social democracy) nor do they see any other solution than violence
it's easier to collectivize and organize using identities that are real and perceivable like family, ethnicity, language, faith than following some abstract ideal like communism
so angry people collectivize using what they have in common and exercise violence
nobody would call a man who would kill to feed himself irrational

>> No.12896694

>>12896683

they are of the type to think that theory precedes any action, and that your theories must be logically sound before action instead of intuitively sound. i wouldn't say that baudrillard is cowardly, but he is disappointing

>> No.12896704

>>12896668
Baudrillard didn't think hyperreality was a terror. He spoke highly of Disneyland.

>> No.12896711

>>12896679
>>12896704
for you too

>> No.12896736

>>12896683
so fascism is a retreat to that inner ooga booga caveman in all of us? is fascism pure id?

is fascism cyclically inevitable?

>> No.12896753

Hey gang, just a reminder that this was all in Mussolini's 1919 Fascist Manifesto. 100% true.
>universal suffrage at 18 years old, including adding voting for women
>regional proportional representational voting
>8 hour work day for all workers and minimum wage
>same influence/concern for labour unions as owners, executives, and public servants
>retirement age of 55
>"partial expropriation" of concentrated capital
>seizure of all the possessions of the religious institutions
>abolition of the senate
>reorganization of railways and public transportation
Just saying.

>> No.12896765

>>12896694
>>12896683
Bad posts.

We can have valid theories for people that act without them having a conscious theoretical framework.
We can draw conclusions, effects and causes from political, economic, sociologic, neurologic, evolutionary etc perspectives.

And second "it's just hungry people who want food and safety" is hyper-over-simplificaiton.
I could just reduce all of human politics, arts, economies etc to "people just want stuff lmao why bother with theories"
kys bye

>> No.12896768

>>12896736
>so fascism is a retreat to that inner ooga booga caveman in all of us?
you're saying as if all other political and economic systems are not based around providing people with basic needs and means to fulfill them

>is fascism cyclically inevitable?
I mean as long as other systems continue to eventually fail and given that violence is always an available to solve immediate problems
If people were really concerned about revival of fascism they wouldn't bitch about nazis on twitter but prevent things from deteriorating to a state where fascism would seem attractive
Nobody is going to go out and genocide ethnic or whatever minorities as long as their livelihood is at risk doing so, even if their sense of "identity" is being erased

>> No.12896775

>>12896765
>I could just reduce all of human politics, arts, economies etc to "people just want stuff lmao why bother with theories"
at the fundamental level that's what it is though
people eat, shit, fornicate and sleep, you can make very complex theories around these thing but they are fundamental
everything else is optional and a result of stability and peace to engage with other activities
did you not learn hierarchy of needs in school or something?

>> No.12896787

>>12896775
>at the fundamental level that's what it is though
No fucking shit, that's my point, that just because you can reduce stuff to simple things doesn't mean you can figure out more subtle and complex shit behind it.

>> No.12896792

>>12896787
>>12896775
doesn't mean you CAN'T figure out more nuanced and complex shit*

>> No.12896797

>>12896753
Reminder that right wingers appropriating left wing talking points is nothing new.

>> No.12896811

>>12896787
but what I'm complaining about how theorists divorce fascism from these fundamental issues and just write it off with "lol irrational fear/paranoi of whatever" ignoring the human condition that drives people to that state of fear and paranoia

>> No.12896815

>>12896753
>1919 fascist manifesto
Not even written by Mussolini.

>> No.12896820

>>12896704

him enjoying disneyland doesn't change how he personally felt about everything else, the hyperreality takes over our entire mode of thinking

>>12896765

there are differences between taking the time to rationalize after the fact of an action, rationalizing to get to the best action, and rationalizing where you are right now to the point of inaction. baudrilllard was closer to the last one

>> No.12896827

>>12896811
with that I can agree.
Intellectuals are too scared and have to give ridiculous disclaimers and yes it is pathetic.

>> No.12896832

>>12896797
"appropriating" sure thing

>> No.12896883
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12896883

>>12896820
Read S&S anon, hyperreality is the only thing feeding reality today. Los Angeles is literally more real than the real.
>The imaginary of Disneyland is neither true nor false, it is a deterrence machine set up in order to rejuvenate the fiction of the real in the opposite camp. [...] Disneyland is not the only one, however. Enchanted Village, Magic Mountain, Marine World: Los Angeles is surrounded by these imaginary stations that feed reality, the energy of the real to a city whose mystery is precisely that of no longer being anything but a network of incessant, unreal circulation - a city of incredible proportions but without space, without dimension.

>> No.12896929

>>12896753

Are you talking about the 'Charter of Carnaro'?

If so; Mussolini had nothing to do with it.

Gabriele d'Annunzio and Alceste De Ambris co-wrote that

>> No.12896967

Baudrillard is considered a reactionary by the modern French liberal left. They are probably right but this is to his credit.

>> No.12896970

>>12896497
isn't it pretty obvious?

>> No.12897006

>>12896797
But those are not left wing talking points. At best it's socdem (aka not left wing). True leftists oppose all those points as just patches to allow capitalism to go on a bit further.

>> No.12897023

>>12896704
Source?

>> No.12897029

>>12896753
>voting for women
YIKES

>> No.12897034

>>12896753
>seizure of all the possessions of the religious institutions
YIKES

>> No.12897047

>>12896497
even fascism is better than liberal democracy

>> No.12897050

>>12896597
We should make gulags for kike worshippers.

>> No.12897077

>>12897047
Depends. A relatively peaceful form of fascism like Salazar's would be okay i guess.

>> No.12897410

>>12896668
No, it says it is a response, but also on the level of the other terror. One ideology can oppose another while functioning under the same law - enemies are often a manifestation of simulacra. One might say that friends become enemies once an argument arises over the interpretation of simulacra.
Where liberalism (I'll use this term for simplicity, perhaps he sees hyperreality as a deeper problem than modernity, a general law of human cognition?) seeks to cover its territory with a map, fascism would see the real world rise through this map to return sovereignty once again. Or to use the dominant metaphors, through its productive apparatus liberalism creates Los Angeles while fascism becomes the machine of Disneyland. In a sense, fascism is the return of the repressed of liberalism, and all of the simulacra created by hyperreality are now mobilised to tear away at the map to unleash the reality of old laws, while the simulacra must be adapted to unleash the value of these old laws - even though they may have been opposed at their inception. This is particularly evident in the unleashing of violence: the cold calculation of manufactured death disappears beneath a veil of pure functioning, and the fascist attempts to revivify old laws of life, strength, and beauty within the instrument of death. Liberalism buries death beneath a simulacra of life, and fascism exhumes life from the buried reality of death.
It is a pretty strong argument, certainly better than the Frankfurt and liberal arguments, although I don't agree with him.

>> No.12897418

>>12897410
>to return sovereignty of the real