Why do socialists insist their government must, too, be socialist? Why’s it nobody anymore is interested in a socialism as a lifestyle? Is it because all the 19th Century’s communes wound up failures?

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Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:19:40 2019 No.12859447 [DELETED]

Why do socialists insist their government must, too, be socialist?

Why’s it nobody anymore is interested in a socialism as a lifestyle? Is it because all the 19th Century’s communes wound up failures?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:21:25 2019 No.12859452 >>12859447 they're incomprehensibly jealous of rich people

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:27:21 2019 No.12859477 does the commune have a starbucks

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 00:28:24 2019 No.12859483
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>>12859447
You don't appear to know one thing about what you're posting.
There are many schemes in socialism, some of which, my favorites, involve no actual state. The government is the governed themselves. A truly socialist variety, you have to concede.

The communes where swallowed up by capitalists

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:31:01 2019 No.12859493
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Can someone who's actually read a fair amount of Marx explain how he saw the Paris Commune as something other than a colossal failure? I know a bit about the era and it seems to boil down to Parisians demanding to be given labor, producing very little, and then the campagne getting fed up with having to support national workshops. I don't see how he could spin it as workers demanding to run their own lives or something.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:32:33 2019 No.12859501 >>12859447 >>>/his/

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:33:46 2019 No.12859505 >>12859483 Pic related is New Harmony for a reason ya nog. >There are many schemes in socialism, some of which involve no actual state. I’m aware. My question is why none have any 21st Century adherents.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 00:34:24 2019 No.12859508 >>12859493 Did you read his bit on the Commune? I'm sure everyone knows it was a failure.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:35:17 2019 No.12859512 >>12859501 /His/ is filled with 13 year olds. This thread wouldn’t get two replies before the day ends. No thanks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:35:53 2019 No.12859517 >>12859508 I don't have the stomach for economics lit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:39:26 2019 No.12859535 >socialism as a lifestyle and not a political position Now this is pure ideology >>12859493 Everyone was tripping over their feet trying to explain how it failed. It really illustrates the differences in the First International

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 00:40:13 2019 No.12859541
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>>12859505
>My question is why none have any 21st Century adherents.
The Cold War, and you're wrong anyway.

>>12859517
I know the feeling. I don't think he goes into it in that particular pamphlet. I haven't read it because I just don't really care what Marx says about it. People should learn lessons from past mistakes. Which is why you read Bookchin now.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:44:28 2019 No.12859568 >>12859541 I should clarify socialism that doesn’t involve Marx is more what I had in mind. >You’re still wrong. Help me out, then. Who?

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:45:28 2019 No.12859573

>>12859505
There are some Fourier types who live in my county. They're real weirdos who have a dozen acres or so with a little shed village the locals call "that hippie compound." They grow their own food and use herbal medicine and stuff like that, but when they get seriously injured or fall seriously ill they go to the hospital in town. They don't pay their debts, of course, which has become a bit of a controversy. I think they do little barter trades with sympathetic locals--handicrafts and surplus produce for laundry detergent and stuff like that that you can't exactly spirit off the prairies. Bunch of holier-than-thou weirdos high on their own farts, in my experience.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:46:30 2019 No.12859578 >>12859541 >Bookchin Don't do that...

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:47:04 2019 No.12859580 >>12859573 Based

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 00:49:46 2019 No.12859591 >>12859568 Well, communalism. Bookchin's. But I was just trying to say socialism is on the rise. Which is why capitalists/neoliberals are letting soft fascism sneak in. >>12859578 Explain yourself

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 00:51:26 2019 No.12859596 File: 15 KB, 247x305, Graeber - Debt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12859573 >They don't pay their debts Oh brother. Guess who else doesn't pay "debts"

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 00:51:51 2019 No.12859600 >>12859591 Bookchin’s not a communist?

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 00:55:03 2019 No.12859621
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>>12859600
He was when he was young. Anarchist when he was older. But he got tired of the head-in-the-sand lifestylists and fused the two into what we call Communalism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:01:15 2019 No.12859654 File: 13 KB, 208x232, 95507D48-5667-46E8-99C6-DE5F4DBFB48B.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12859621 No Icarian/Owen-esq. Utopian socialists, though? Have to wonder why.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:02:23 2019 No.12859660 >>12859447 That's a "if ya don't like it just move some place else!!" tier argument.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:04:01 2019 No.12859672 >>12859660 You’ll have to elaborate, gamer.

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:06:34 2019 No.12859685

>>12859621
>communalism
So benedict-option in action?
I find it funny how reactionarys on the right end up in similar conclusions that anarchists/socialists do.
Just for different reasons, but in action very similar.
Why does /lit/ generally despise economic sciences?
I'm currently in university majoring in the very thing, maybe I'll end up like the physicists.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 01:11:19 2019 No.12859705 File: 461 KB, 1147x645, Cockshott - Towards a New Socialism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12859685 Read And/or Richard Wolff and David Harvey

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:12:13 2019 No.12859709 >>12859596 Niggers and jews R-right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:13:27 2019 No.12859714 >>12859591 National*-socialism. I think its clear to all international socialism is dead. Well at least in Europe it is. Dont know what the hell you amerifags are doing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:15:34 2019 No.12859722 >>12859705 I've read Representing Capital, why should I read this one? You seem to shill this one in every single thread relating to economics. Sure you aren't just blindly following an ideology?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:16:00 2019 No.12859723 >>12859447 >Why do socialists insist their government must, too, be socialist? Are you really this dumb?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:16:24 2019 No.12859726 >>12859705 BUTTERFLY, IT'S ME! :3 MARRY ME!!! :3 >>12859722 STOP PRETENDING TO BE ME!!!! :3

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:16:58 2019 No.12859727 >>12859726 based schizo incel

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 01:20:19 2019 No.12859741 >>12859709 States and corporations. >>12859722 >Sure you aren't just blindly following an ideology? No. I prefer a shared economy. Cockshott makes a case for vouchers. It would work.

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:23:13 2019 No.12859753

>>12859596
Did I ever say that was a bad thing? No. I said it was a controversial thing. So long as those who owe me pay me back (not that I'm given to lending), I could care less what debts they do or don't honor.
>>12859591
>Explain yourself.
I have a degree in environmental sciences and most of what he has to say about eco-anything is BS. The reality is that all of the approaches to undoing what our species has done to the Earth are either lies packaged to suit some agenda or another, wishful thinking, or so unethical that we couldn't go through with them without turning our souls black and rotten. We can't do much at all, and we've been locked in on this course since we as a species first started messing around with slash-and-burn agriculture. The best we can do is mitigate further damage. Aside from that, neoliberalism is ungodly, but Bookchin's ideal society is unworkable. Any real attempt to enforce his communalism will result in terrible suffering. Fundamentally changing the order of things would upset the lives of everybody on the planet, harm billions, and probably not even work out. It's best to make do, to try your best to be of God, and to change others by example rather than by force.

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:29:59 2019 No.12859790

>>12859741
>shared economy
It always comes to this;
how do we get from here to there.
I doubt you're an accerationist, believing that capitalism will consume it's own tail, the body and finally it's head, if we keep pushing it further and further.
So are you a revolutionary then?
With what means? You cannot control the global market economy, capital is sentient.
Where will this idea come to fruition? Surely not through progressivism (liberal democracy) as we can plainly see.
It's great to suggest ideas that would indeed work, now how to put them in action.
Communalism?
How will you prevent the degenerating force of capital from consuming your new-found prison?
This is the same question I ask from the neo-reactionaries suggesting the Benedict-option.
At least they have guns, but that ain't much.
You have nothing actionable, just a pretty good idea of how it would function.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 01:43:27 2019 No.12859876
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>>12859753
>Any real attempt to enforce his communalism will result in terrible suffering. Fundamentally changing the order of things would upset the lives of everybody on the planet, harm billions, and probably not even work out.
Haven't read the details, but as I understand it, people would have to "enforce" it
>It's best to make do
Apparently we wont make do if what you say is correct.

>>12859790
>how do we get from here to there.
The book rec. Cockshott.
Capitalism is a decrepit old man who falls down over and over and over and over again. Each time a little more wounded, and little more broken. It wont go on like this forever. It's coming to it's end. And if we manage to pick up one more time it'll probably kill us all. Stupid apes.

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:48:03 2019 No.12859896

>>12859876
>it will come to an end this time, I swear
You know socialists and communists have been saying this since the 60's right?
There is no end to it, it just comes back, like a fucking vampire.
You always end up stabbing it anywhere else, but the heart.
Read some Zizek, why don't you.

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:54:13 2019 No.12859927

>>12859447
"During their attack on folk politics, S&W were pretty open about how the problem was that groups tried to apply communist principles to communist activism. For example, communism should be non-hierarchical, so some activist groups tried to be non-hierarchical, but then all those activist groups failed. Or: communism says we should abandon market economies for ones based on mutual aid, so Occupy camps tried to have internal economies based on mutual aid, but then those camps couldn’t get resources distributed effectively. S&W’s conclusion was: stop trying to run your activist groups in a communist way, that never works. I’m sure they’re right. But I feel like even true believers might have wondered why real communism, when it came, would go differently. This was never explained."
https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/18/book-review-inventing-the-future/

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:57:13 2019 No.12859938 >>12859512 >I feel free to shut up boards with off topic nonsense because the other boards wouldn’t give me (You)s An hero dude

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:57:40 2019 No.12859940

>>12859896
>>12859876
Also, if you have actually read the book you are recommending, I find it highly dubious you never manage to even paraphrase it, nor quote it.
We are here to discuss, are we not?
Throwing a book at my face and yelling "Read it, pleb!" will not make anyone read it.
Also, I feel great shame in saying "Read Zizek", commiting the same stupidity you do in every single thread regarding this topic.
You don't even need to read anyone to realise that there is no stopping the capital.
How the fuck are you going to stop China?

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 01:59:31 2019 No.12859952
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>>12859876
>Apparently we wont make do if what you say is correct.
You shouldn't confuse the material world for the real world. The material world is rotten and corrupt. This corruption has resulted in environmental harm and other evils. Individuals in this material world cannot choose to escape from the path chosen by humanity. We're all here, whether we like it or not. Reef-building organisms have evolved independently dozens of times throughout the history of life on Earth, sometimes as calcifying seaweeds and sometimes in forms like the corals we have today. When the coral reefs are gone in a century or so, it's only temporary. They will come back, just in a different form. This is all only temporary. Your time here is temporary, and you will come back in a different form as well. What I'm trying to say is that you can and will escape from this suffering, but not in this corrupt world. Don't harm others, just make do like the rest of us and do your best to make the world around you more godly. This is all transient and impermanent, so try to make the best of what you can while you can.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 02:00:05 2019 No.12859957
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>>12859896
And it turns out the basic tenet was correct.
Not even saying it's this next time. Fuckers will find a way to patch it up. But did you know that China saved our asses this last crash?
I doubt Africa is in the position to do it next time.
>More Zizek
Harvey is who I've made time for.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:03:11 2019 No.12859970 >>12859938 Butterfag’s interested enough that I find it hard to feel too sorry.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 02:07:17 2019 No.12859983

>>12859940
It's economics. It goes into mad detail about how a voucher system can work now. The Soviets just missed the computer age. Started and stalled on chapter 10 where we're going to go into foreign trade. He laments that Marx died before going into any of that, so we're going to go back to Ricardo's formulas or something. I'm not an economics. It should be an easy read for you if you cared to.
Never called you a pleb.
Stop China? I really don't want war. I'd sooner see the US break up

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:12:42 2019 No.12860003 >>12859983 You have no choice though...

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:14:39 2019 No.12860011 >>12859983 >He laments that Marx died before going into any of that That's so silly, though. Why? Marx was not a prophet. He was a man who had ideas, and someone else will eventually think up something identical to what he did.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 02:16:32 2019 No.12860016 File: 671 KB, 1920x1080, 1435208912923.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12860003 We are a bit more than bacteria in the gut. I may have limited power, but large groups of people have more power

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:21:01 2019 No.12860021

>>12860016
Large groups are just organisms. You're a cell. I guess it was wrong to say you have no choice. You can be a functional cell and fill the role that has been selected for you. If you feel that is wrong, you have two options. You can be something destructive like a cancer cell and harm others. If you feel that is wrong, you can be a nonfunctional but ultimately benign cell. However, some cells do not have the option of being simultaneously nonfunctional and benign. Regardless, you will die and decompose outside of the organism.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 02:24:22 2019 No.12860026

>>12860011
>The socialist movement lacks a definite theory of foreign trade. Marx intended to write a volume of Capital on international trade, but he died before starting the task. ...
>Marxian economic theory was generally derived from the theories of Ricardo, and in the absence of any specific Marxian theory of trade, the obvious staring point must be Ricardo

"Lament" too strong a word for it?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:28:40 2019 No.12860033 >>12860026 An ideology with no real idea how to deal with international trade, whose followers want to take over a world that cannot exist without international trade... Well, I guess...? The trade in Che memorabilia will continue.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:29:10 2019 No.12860035 because all the proles have been brainwashed into thinking their vote counts and other nonsense

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 02:35:49 2019 No.12860053
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>>12860033
>Haven't read that chapter
>Oh well, I guess that means there is no trade in Marxism
It doesn't even matter. This is Cockshott and Cottrall showing how it could work with a voucher system. Geez man.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:39:24 2019 No.12860065 >>12860053 Why are you responding to the shitposts instead of real rebuttals like >>12859952?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 02:44:15 2019 No.12860079 File: 20 KB, 526x451, 1214864637061.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12860065 Anonymity >>12859952 >This is all only temporary I know. Why I post clouds. They persistently try to wash us away

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 02:47:49 2019 No.12860092 >>12860079 If you know, then why would you want the things you claim to want?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 02:51:31 2019 No.12860098 File: 64 KB, 990x655, 11CCE9C5-967C-411B-A246-264CC8FDE6A0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12860092 Why will I make the effort to save humanity? What an odd thing to ask.

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 03:00:57 2019 No.12860119

>>12860098
Humanity as a whole has already been saved. It doesn't need any more saving. However, we can't be saved in this material world. It's simply not possible. We could probably make things better here through proper prayer, recitation of thanks and blessings, and good deeds. Why should the material world be changed radically from the top down rather than altered slightly from the foundation up, especially considering such a radical change from the top would result in harm to innocents?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Apr 1 03:05:10 2019 No.12860133 File: 213 KB, 1280x960, FF6C9DE2-1B8C-489C-9843-B64A9DF6D6F8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12860119 There is no otherworld, no afterlife. It’s now and never. The fungus in your brain works against us all. It always has

Anonymous Mon Apr 1 03:13:48 2019 No.12860154
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>>12860133
You're free to blaspheme as you please, but at least consider the will of God as described by Jesus Christ and the impermanence of our souls and material lives as described by Shakyamuni.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 1 03:16:36 2019 No.12860160 A lot of people are interested in socialism as a lifestyle. It's just generally unideological, so you don't hear about it so often. And what are perks? An April Fools joke?

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