/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.12801078]

I don't particularly enjoy the Iliad. The story and details in the book are interesting and it obviously has a lot of historical value. I've now read about 250 pages and I will finish the book, but what I dislike about it is the way humans are (sometimes literally) deified. I'd rather read about real humans and normal life struggles.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous No.12801117]

>Thoughts?

Yeah, I think you're an idiot.

[Anonymous No.12801125]

The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.

The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.” The “RAGE” of Achilles when his honor is violated and his rightful prize and love is taken from him by his very own commander.

Right here we see Man versus State, as Achilles is the superior warrior, and as he takes all the risks, he ought get the reward. That is the Natural Law of Zeus, for after Achilles Natural Rights are violated and Achilles quits, Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.

Long before Atlas Shrugged in Rand’s cheap novel, Achilles quit the Greek army.

Homer shows that women who honor their commitments, like Penelope, lead to happy endings. Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.

Achilles quits for the sake of Honor, refuses to return when offered millions times more prizes, arguing that once honor is taken away, mere money/prizes cannot buy it back. He also reasons that all the wealth in the world is not worth him losing his life in an arena where his honor was taken away. When offered honors and awards, Achilles states, “I receive my honor from Zeus, not from corrupt Kings."

And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor, so as to avenge the death of his friend Patroculus, knowing full well he will die.

Simply put, Achilles is a man who lives and dies not for mere prizes, nor perks, nor tenure, nor titles, nor money, but for honor, and honor alone.

A few hundred years later, Socrates would invoke Achilles while facing death at his own trial. Socrates was offered perks and prizes and life if he would only recant his teachings that “Virtue does not come from money, but money and every lasting good of man derives form virtue.”

But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings.

And of course Socrates mentored Plato who mentored Aristotle who mentored Copernicus/Newton/Galileo, who gave birth to Western Science and Technology and Freedom, all via the Homeric Honor of Achilles.

[Anonymous No.12801145]

>>12801078
>what I dislike about it is the way humans are (sometimes literally) deified.
Please be in London.

[Anonymous No.12801276]

>>12801125
Yes. Achilles, the half-God, the greatest of the warriors and the most honourable among others of high honour and valour. Even he makes mistakes, but remains steadfast in his heart. Apart from Achilles, Homer also always speak about how exalted the other characters, the nobility, are among their people.

I don't like that. I like to read about a normal human going through normal human problems and despair. I guess I'm just not that attracted to the symbolism in the Iliad and would rather read something more modern.

[Anonymous No.12801635]

>>12801078
Homer,while telling a fantastical story is as real as it gets.Have you read plato?He uses homer as his standard in order to create talking points.im just gonna give a few examples of the hyperreality that homer does in comparison to a recent happening....

[Anonymous No.12801643]

>>12801635
They poured across it in flight, while Hera spread a dense fog there to thwart them.The rest were forced into the deep pools of the river with its silvery currents, flinging themselves into the echoing water, splashing through the falls, as the banks resounded. This way and that they swam, shouting, whirled about in the flow. Like a swarm of locusts fleeing before the sudden remorseless onset of raging fire, that fly to a river and cluster in its shallows, so the echoing pools of swirling Xanthus were filled with a confusion of men and horses at the onset of Achilles.

the muslims cluster in the 2 corners at the onset of the NZ shooter

[Anonymous No.12801650]

>>12801643
There the warrior, beloved of Zeus, left his spear against a tamarisk bush, and leapt in, like a demon, with only his sword, striking right and left, murder in his heart. Hideous groans rose from the dying men, and the water was red with their blood. The Trojans cowered in the pools of that terrible stream, under the overhanging banks, like swarms of fish fleeing a huge dolphin that greedily devours all it catches and filling the coves in some sheltered bay or harbour. When his arms were weary of the slaughter,


shooter drops shotgun changes to rifle and continues slaughtering

[Anonymous No.12801657]

>>12801650
‘Fool, do not talk to me of ransom, make me no speeches! Before the day of fate overtook Patroclus, I had a mind to spare you Trojans. Many I took alive, selling them far away. Now not one shall keep his life, of all the gods send to my hands before Troy not one solitary Trojan, and least of all the sons of Priam. You too, my friend, must die: why so sad?

the heelp mee heelp me lady begs for help/mercy

[Anonymous No.12801668]

>>12801657
Proud Achilles’ horses trampled dead men and shields alike as grain is swiftly trampled under the feet of the broad-browed bellowing oxen a farmer yokes to tread white barley on a stone threshing floor. The axle and the chariot rim were black with blood thrown up by the hooves and the wheels as the son of Peleus pressed on to glory, his all-conquering arms spattered with gore.

the heelp mee heelp me ladys corpse being run over

[Anonymous No.12801672]

>>12801276
You're tastes are just fucking weird I guess. I've never met a guy that didn't love it.

[Anonymous No.12801702]

>>12801078
i hope you come to understand homer is truth.divine homer has been trying to teach the terrible truth of conflict and agony of the human condition.

[Anonymous No.12801719]

>>12801117
Good talk, bro.

[Anonymous No.12801934]

>>12801672
Well that's your opinion. I definitely don't hate it that's why I'll finish it. Maybe I don't enjoy it as much because it doesn't do a lot of introspection on the characters.

[Anonymous No.12802135]

>>12801934
homer is educational and you should study it earnestly.


While Agamemnon spoke, the son of Peleus was gnawed by pain, and the heart in his shaggy breast was torn; whether to draw the sharp blade at his side, scatter the crowd, and kill the son of Atreus, or curb his wrath and restrain his spirit. As he pondered this in his mind, his great sword half-unsheathed, Athene descended from the sky, sent by Hera, the white-armed goddess, who loved and cared for both the lords alike. Athene, standing behind the son of Peleus, tugged at his golden hair, so that only he could see her, no one else. Achilles, turning in surprise, knew Pallas Athene at once, so terrible were her flashing eyes. He spoke out, with winged words, saying: ‘Why are you here, daughter of aegis-bearing Zeus? Is it to witness Agamemnon’s arrogance? I tell you and believe that this son of Atreus’ will pay soon with his life for his insolent acts.’

The goddess, bright-eyed Athene, replied: ‘I came from the heavens to quell your anger, if you’ll but listen: I was sent by the goddess, white-armed Hera, who in her heart loves and cares for you both alike. Come, end this quarrel, and sheathe your sword. Taunt him with words of prophecy; for I say, and it shall come to pass, that three times as many glorious gifts shall be yours one day for this insult. Restrain yourself, now, and obey.’

athena represents achilles thought,she is also fond of odysseus.

[Anonymous No.12802136]

>>12801702
>when odysseus sees his dog

[Anonymous No.12802145]

>>12802136

[Anonymous No.12802258]

>>12801668
>>12801657
>>12801643
Which translation is this?

[Anonymous No.12802275]

>>12801125
Pride is not always honorable. The sheer vanity of two men results in utter disaster. It wasn't worth it.

>Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.
I could be wrong about this, but I thought it was Zeus' will that Troy would always fall, as he made a promise to Hera. Or are the individual battles mean to be interpreted as their own events?

[Anonymous No.12802284]

>>12802258
Translated by A. S. Kline

[Anonymous No.12802287]

>>12801078
yes, I agree the concept is good BUT human civilization has much improved since then and the writing style is pretty tiresome in addition to that. I suggest you read GRRM, he basically takes the concept and improves a lot on it

[Anonymous No.12802293]

>>12802275
>I could be wrong about this, but I thought it was Zeus' will that Troy would always fall
And it did fall

[Anonymous No.12802308]

>>12802293
I suppose I worded it poorly, but I was trying to ask what the significance of Zeus making the Greeks lose for a while was when it was already promised that they would win.

[Anonymous No.12802320]

>>12802308
Because of agamemnon's arrogance and what he did to Achilles

[Anonymous No.12802351]

>>12802284
Thanks. It's not bad for a prose translation.

[Anonymous No.12802360]

>>12802308
The Achaeans didn't know that.

[Anonymous No.12802361]

>>12802351
yeah its smooth and complete

[Anonymous No.12803321]

>>12801125
You're forgetting that Achilles' decision not to fight is precisely that which leads to his best friend's death, and his boundless grief. Achilles chooses not to fight, but not because he is virtuous, but in man-killing pride.

[Anonymous No.12803399]

>>12801934
>Maybe I don't enjoy it as much because it doesn't do a lot of introspection on the characters.
It's in their dialogue and in the similes.

[Anonymous No.12803467]

Honestly, your first time through the Iliad is pretty fucking wierd and boring. You read it like a modern novel, trying to make it a page turner, skimming sections so you can get to the part where Achilles goes ham.

The second time through, the poetry starts to pop out at you as you now understand the basics of the characters, conflicts and style of Homer.

By the third time you go through the Iliad, you will be convinced of its genius

[Anonymous No.12803476]

>>12803467
>Honestly, your first time through the Iliad is pretty fucking wierd and boring. You read it like a modern novel, trying to make it a page turner, skimming sections so you can get to the part where Achilles goes ham.

Maybe if you're a fucking retard. Achilles going in to battle isn't even the best part, nor is Achilles the best hero.

[Anonymous No.12803480]

>>12803476
>nor is Achilles the best hero
Who's your favourite, anon? I am partial to the gigantic chad that is Diomedes.

[Anonymous No.12803499]

>>12803480

[Anonymous No.12803504]

>>12803321
Why should he have fought in a war he knew he would die in after his honor was taken away by agamemnon? Especially since agamemnon's crime is the exact same as Paris's, which was the reason for the war in the first place.
Too, he didn't have to let his men fight but could have left with them all back to Greece. Patroculus also disobeyed Achilles and pushed farther than he should have. So I wouldn't say Achilles not fighting led precisely to his friends death.

[Anonymous No.12803516]

>>12803499
Good choice.

[Anonymous No.12803589]

>>12801934
Just because you're too dumb to pick up on the introspection doesn't mean it's not there.

[Anonymous No.12803608]

>>12801078
I honestly really liked, although got a bit bored around the middle

[Anonymous No.12803634]

>>12803476
How would you know that while reading it for the first time?

[Anonymous No.12803675]

>>12801125
is this a pasta?
Pretty sure i've read this before somewhere else

[Anonymous No.12803706]

>>12803675
I think it is

[Anonymous No.12804273]

>>12803608
yeah.its the fighting,it just keeps going on back and forth.perhaps its was intentional how the reader/listeners get tired of the killing.

[Anonymous No.12804330]

>>12804273
many wars just drag on and on and everyone friend and foe just wants it to accomplish something or come to a conclusion

[Anonymous No.12804887]

>>12803504
It's a good question, why should he participate in man-killing war, especially without the rewards or honor that come with it? Homer's question is answered best by the what Patrocolus represents, the costs of Achilles' folly. He's like a scapegoat in that he suffers for the consequences of Achilles' actions, "lost in his own great innocence," as Homer puts it. If Patrocolus disobeyed Achilles as you say he does, this wouldn't make much sense. But Patrocolus doesn't do any such thing. Patrocolus asks explicit permission from Achilles to fight in his place before fighting and dying, reinforcing the idea that Achilles is the ultimate cause of Patrocolus' demise.

Through this tragic fallout of his refusal to act for the good of his comrades without letting pride get in the way, Achilles realizes how wrong he was too let his pride overcome him, realizing he not only killed his best friend but lost "countless strong fighters souls" while he let the rest of the Greeks fight, and then fights without asking for reward or honor.

[Anonymous No.12804891]

>>12802136
>he dies, laying on a pile of shit, unable to move, immediately upon seeing his master

[Anonymous No.12804901]

>>12803480
>not two of the bro-iest of bros, who literally share a name, Godlike Aias and Godlike Aias

[Anonymous No.12805024]

>>12804891
>he, among everyone else, is the only one to be able to recognize odysseus in his disguise

[Anonymous No.12805085]

>>12804901
His name is AJAX you philhellene

[Anonymous No.12805152]

>>12801276
You think Homeric characters don't go through normal human problems and despair? Have you read them? Have you not wept with Odysseus as he sits at the shore on Calypso's island looking towards Ithaca? Have you not, with Achilles, called Agamemnon a fucktard for trying to get you back into the fray by offering you Briseis swearing (with his fingers crossed behind his back) that he never knew her? Have you not shaken your head in disappointment when Hector turns tail and runs?
The Homeric heroes are not super-human, above humanity, but complete men in that they are perfect embodiments of the human. They all do stupid shit and make mistakes. Achilles could've done something other than sit and sulk and Odysseus shouldn't have taunted the cyclops. Just because Homer calls them "godlike Achilles" doesn't make them flawless; the gods were far from flawless themselves, you seem to forget.

[Anonymous No.12805820]

>>12801078
>I'd rather read about real humans and normal life struggles.
Read The Golden Ass by Apuleius then, it will fit your needs.

[Anonymous No.12806089]

>>12801934
character driven fiction is poison

[Anonymous No.12806132]

>>12804887
>If Patrocolus disobeyed Achilles as you say he does, this wouldn't make much sense. But Patrocolus doesn't do any such thing. Patrocolus asks explicit permission from Achilles to fight in his place before fighting and dying,
Yes, but you are forgetting that Achilles explicitly told him only to drive the Trojans from the ships and then to return, not to pursue them to the city. Achilles even predicts Apollo killing him if he fights on to the city.

[Anonymous No.12806269]

What are your favorite scenes?
One of my favorites is diomedes and glaucon. On the verge of fighting they find out they are familial guest-friends, upold xenia, trade gifts and depart as bros.

[Anonymous No.12806549]

>>12804901
I like telemonian Ajax because he is the only hero who gets no help whatsoever from the gods and still dominates his enemies, including Hector 1v1

[Anonymous No.12806919]

>>12806269
I like the funeral games

[Anonymous No.12807524]

>>12806269
The Trojan horse scene of course

[Anonymous No.12807643]

>>12807524
Technically not in the Iliad and barely mentioned in the Odyssey

[Anonymous No.12808177]

>>12806132
You're right, I did forget there was an element of Patrocolus' own defying of Achilles' orders. That definitely means Achilles is not the sole cause of Patrocolus' death. But this doesn't mean Achilles' doesn't feel responsible in part for Patrocolus' death, he clearly does in the poem.
And ultimately, Achilles does regret his decision to refuse to fight: "'Agamemnon-was it better for both of us, after all,
for you and me to rage at each other, raked by anguish,
consumed by heartsick strife, all for a young girl?
If only Artemis had cut her down at the ships--
with one quick shaft-
that day I destroyed Lyrnessus, chose her as my prize.
How many fewer friends had gnawed the dust of the wide world,
brought down by enemy hands while I raged on and on. 70
Better? Yes-for Hector and Hector's Trojansl
Not for the Argives. For years to come, I think,
they will remember the feud that flared between us both.
Enough. Let bygones be bygones. Done is done.
Despite my anguish I will beat it down,
the fury mounting inside me, down by force.
Now, by god, I call a halt to all my anger-
it's wrong to keep on raging, heart inflamed forever.'"

[Anonymous No.12808232]

>>12801078
>I'd rather read about real humans and normal life struggles.
So do it. Why did you think this merited a thread? Do you want to be persuaded otherwise? Then why would you say you'd rather read something else? Do you want us to agree with you? Will that make whatever else you read more palatable to you? I fear you will remain unsatisfied because you don't want to take responsibility for yourself.

[Anonymous No.12808498]

Do you actually memorized the book or is everybody discussing it here today just finished reading it?

[Anonymous No.12808570]

>>12808498
Firstly, remembering the books you read should not be difficult in any way. If it is, you need to work on your technique. Second, it's not unreasonable to assume many anons have read the Iliad multiple times.

[Anonymous No.12808599]

fucking lolling at all of you plebs. do you actually worship this fucking book? I am almost 100% certain that only one of you assholes has actually read the text in the original Greek. you will never understand this book without reading it in the original language. fucking idiots

[Anonymous No.12808677]

>>12801276
>I don't like that. I like to read about a normal human going through normal human problems and despair
That's why the Illiad is about Hector

[Anonymous No.12808912]

>>12801078
The Iliad is key to enjoying the Odyssey. You have to understand the kind of men that went to war, as compared to the twats that wait at home to take Odysseus' land, as proven when Homer comments that one of the men lifts up a rock that not even two men "today" could pick up.
And you have to understand the brother hood these brave men had amongst each other. Achilles and his return to battle over the loss of Patroclus is one such example

This theme of brotherhood is amplified at the end of the odyssey (as well as the theme of these non heros being lesser) when Agamemnon in the house of death asks the suitors how they died, was it at war taking a city, stealing herds and women, etc. and one of the suitor's spirits informs him they were cut down by Odysseus.

Agamemnon is overjoyed for Odysseus and cares nothing about the suitors themselves even though he knows one of them, as his brother in arms Odysseus is home safe and has what is his by right, where as Agamemnon failed to return to his old life and was murdered by his wife's suitor.

You may not appreciate The Iliad, and if you don't I am sorry for you, because it and the Odyssey are both fantastic. Brotherhood, honor, the rights of man from the Heavens, duty, and striving to be greater all are in the Iliad and it is a great work because of it.

[Anonymous No.12808930]

>>12802145
The dog is another example of loyalty in the Odyssey, and it is truly beautiful, his tail wags when he sees his master is home. He'd waited all these years, ignored by Odysseus' servents, left to lay in filth, but it didnt matter because one day his master would be home and thats all that mattered. And he finally sees him, after all these years he comes home so he can be at peace and not worry that his master still hadnt come home safely
Man, Homer could write a story

[Anonymous No.12808936]

I know this has been asked before. But what's the ranking for translations? I've only read the Fitzgerald prose version and I'd like to do a reread in a different translation.

[Anonymous No.12808942]

>>12807643
I am curious, does the end of Troy get covered in the Aeneid in more detail?

[Anonymous No.12808960]

>>12808930
yeah, it's so amazing that such a brilliant female writer ever existed. honestly, why haven't we seen another woman write a book, poem, or literally anything as good as one of Homer's poems?

[Anonymous No.12808969]

>>12808960
>yeah, it's so amazing that such a brilliant female writer ever existed.
>he thinks homer was one person, be it a man or a woman
yikes

[Anonymous No.12808973]

>>12808942
Yes, it's covered in one of the earlier chapters in great detail. All from the perspective of Aeneas of course.

[Anonymous No.12808991]

>>12808969
>man or woman
>he doesn't accept the possibility that Homer was an enby, muxe, two-spirit, or Balkan sworn virgin
yikes

[Anonymous No.12808993]

>>12808973
>Yes, it's covered in one of the earlier chapters in great detail. All from the perspective of Aeneas of course.
Happy it came with the other two then. Dont know if itll top the Iliad and Odyssey but, thats the one thing I felt missing when I read those, Troy's end

[Anonymous No.12809060]

>>12803480
Agamemnon unironically. Dude shouldve been allowed to reclaim his kingdom

[Anonymous No.12809083]

>>12808993
The fall of Troy was covered in another epic that wasn't preserved until modern times iirc

[Anonymous No.12809089]

>>12808498
homer is supposed to be memorized.plato quotes him from memory in many dialogs.

[Anonymous No.12809092]

>>12809083
Are there any fragments of it left?

[Anonymous No.12809102]

>>12803480
I loved how Diomedes went on his first massacre among enemy lines. He's there, waiting for them to come, looking relatively innocuous, until someone calls him out on dishonoring his father's name and deeds. After that he jumps right into the battle and that beast of a man never ceases killing troyans; I fucking adored how his every action was always performed under his father's shadow.

[Anonymous No.12809106]

>>12809092
Great question. Do some research and report back with your findings.

[Anonymous No.12809114]

>>12803499
I don't know how or why, but his death really got an emotion out of me
>tfw scroll XXII starts with Homer saying that Hector is stuck outside the walls

[Anonymous No.12809119]

>>12809106
>The Posthomerica (Greek: τὰ μεθ᾿ Ὅμηρον, transliterated as "tà meth᾿ Hómēron") is an epic poem by Quintus of Smyrna, probably written in the latter half of the 4th century, and telling the story of the Trojan War, between the death of Hector and the fall of Ilium.
Do I get a gold star? Is this the one you referred to?

[Anonymous No.12809137]

>>12809119
No, but you get a gold star anyway. The one you found there is pretty late, I think there's one dating from Homeric times or thereabouts with the original story. My memory could be wrong though.

[Anonymous No.12809143]

Even the Greek gods are real humans in a sense.
They're all prone to stupid shit, especially that roastie Aphrodite.

[Anonymous No.12809155]

>>12802136
Fuck you, don't remind me

[Anonymous No.12809162]

>>12809092
Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns, and Homerica has what you are looking for

[Anonymous No.12809166]

>>12809137
ok found them. Their listed under the epic cycle and yeah theyre fragments unfortunately

[Anonymous No.12809174]

>>12809143
when athena punches her lovely boobie

[Anonymous No.12809180]

>>12808599
I'm sure we're not the only ones who have read it in the original. Not that it's that important.

[Anonymous No.12809181]

>>12809162
>Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns, and Homerica
thanks. I really want to read what wasn't covered in the two major works of the cycle

[Anonymous No.12809197]

>unironically had to be divinely nerfed to melee due to so much ass-kicking
Fucker made a pincushion out of Troy.

[Anonymous No.12809204]

>>12809174
Or when Hera slaps Artemis into submission with a smug smirk and literally sends her crying to her dad's lap.

[Anonymous No.12810052]

>that random bum fight in the Odyssey

[Anonymous No.12810147]

>>12808936
Get Richmond Lattimore, Chapman, and Pope.

[Anonymous No.12810318]

>>12809197
Teucer kicked ass. Glad he's getting the respect he deserves on this board.

>>12806549
My heart was broken the second I found out he met a tragic death after the war. I got Sophocles play about him the next day and plan on reading it in the next week

[Anonymous No.12810396]

>>12805152
good post

[Anonymous No.12810514]

instead of starting a new thread...

I'm about to begin the Iliad and Odyssey, but have Pope's translations.

should I continue or read the more popular editions that Robert Fagle translated?

[Anonymous No.12810645]

>>12805152
this was great

[Anonymous No.12810950]

>>12809143
>>12809174
Polytheist gods are just a race of beings, little to do with the stripped-down gods of the Enlightenment and beyond, which are barely more than a philosophical distinction given a title. They're not meant to be bound by the expectations of humans, not meant to serve them, they don't care at all. They're a powerful race far beyond man.

[Anonymous No.12811817]

>>12801702
>when pol cucks who would fucking crumble at the very threat of physical violence, think that war is epic xD
Come back to me when you managed to lose your virginity.

[Anonymous No.12812016]

What are your thoughts on Alexander Pope's version?

[Anonymous No.12812693]

>>12811817
i have broke my tibia,nose,and a bone in my hand as a result of violence,i broke the bone in my hand fighting for control of a 7 gallon water jug,

[Anonymous No.12812702]

>>12812693
water,food,cows,women,oil, power are all legitimate reasons for conflict.

[Anonymous No.12812804]

>>12811817
>would fucking crumble at the very threat of physical violence,

even in iliad great achilles gets moged on by agamemnon,whole armies advance and retreat ...every man left alive is alive because he yielded to greater force.

a word exists in iliad that means sideways glancing bitchface,like the look the retreating dogs show in this painting

[Anonymous No.12813107]

>>12811817
A man would need a heart of steel to rejoice at the sight of such conflict and not be saddened.

iliad scroll 13

[Anonymous No.12813181]

>>12801078
>I'd rather read about real humans and normal life struggles.
What's it like to have fallen into the contemporary "there are no great men who deserve to be deified" trap? Should we no longer be awed by Alexander's reach? Or Shakespeare's plays? Or Plato's thoughts?

>"[Group biographies] are now fashinoable because we don't believe, as Karl Pearson did, in great men, and we like to see human beings as parts of large social structures whose mechanisms and inter-relations we can uncover and describe" - A.S. Byatt, "The Biographer's Tale".

[Anonymous No.12813939]

>>12801125
One of the only good pastas

[Anonymous No.12814382]

>>12803499
Even if he survives this dreadful war against the Greeks, toil and suffering will be his fate, bereft of all his lands. An orphaned child is severed from his playmates; He goes about with downcast looks and tear-stained cheeks, plucks his father’s friends by the cloak or tunic, till one, from pity, holds the wine-cup to his lips, but only for a moment, enough to wet his lips but not his palate. And some lad with both parents alive strikes him with his fist and drives him from the feast, jeering at him in reproach: “Away with you, now! You’ve no father here.” So my child will run in tears to his widowed mother, my son Astyanax, who sat on his father’s knee eating the rich fat and the sheep’s marrow, and when he was sleepy and tired of play, slept in his nurse’s arms in a soft bed, his dreams sweet.

the fate of fatherless children