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12705802 No.12705802 [Reply] [Original]

After reading Guenon and Evola, nothing compares. Their explanations for the world answer every question that every philosopher tries to get at.

After reading them, all philosophy feels like a waste of time, because they were right. All philosophical abstract questions are only being asked because of the dissolution of Tradition. The questions are symptoms of nihilistic degeneration of a society.

There really is no point in looking for answers in philosophy after understanding the Traditionalist viewpoint

>> No.12705815

Yea that's true

>> No.12705825
File: 275 KB, 372x512, 1518904563245.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12705825

>>12705802

>Clearly this metanarrative is the one that explains all the current criticism to metanarratives going on

>> No.12705829

>>12705825
Metaphysics isn't a metanarrative, it's not a narrative at all

>> No.12705833

>>12705802
Traditionalists are fucking dumb though

>> No.12705867

>>12705833
how

>> No.12705907

>>12705802
Reading Evola at 17 was life changing, but unfortunately there’s a bunch of stuff he wrote that was just plain wrong (like his autistic obsession with the Warriors>Priests thing)

>> No.12705911

>>12705867
They are reactionary nazis

>> No.12705918

>>12705907
Yeah and his preoccupation with "Olympianism" or whatever is pretty dumb and pointless. also the dichotomy between that and "tellurism" that he ripped from bachofen is tedious and uninteresting. but i like how he is kind of the black sheep of the traditionalist family and isnt afraid to take his own stance, independently of "traditionalist orthodoxy". always respected him for that, even tho i lean more toward such "orthodoxy" myself

>> No.12705922

>>12705911
wow, those are the worst kind of nazis

>> No.12705929

>>12705802
Can y'all hook me up with the reading list from these guys?

>> No.12705937
File: 102 KB, 1866x593, evola reccs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12705937

>>12705929

>> No.12705940

>>12705911
>nazis
>facists
>esotericists
---------------------------------
>reactionary

pick any number up to three above the line, or pick the one under the line.

>> No.12706023

>>12705911
>muh material politics
You haven't read them

>> No.12706026

>>12705940
THis is why I’ll always prefer Hall to the traditionalists. More accessible to the isolated student

>> No.12706029

>>12705918
>>12705907
Yeah they aren't right about everything, but their larger ideas are correct.

I'm a christian so I disagree with their Gnosticism but I see what they're saying and I mostly agree with it

>> No.12706035

>>12705937
Ok before I continue, this isn't going to mess with my eternal soul right? I see "hindu" and "metaphysics" and my biological WASP protector shoots up red flags.

>> No.12706047

>>12706035
it will either fuck you up forever, in this life and in the next, or if you follow it through to its conclusion and aren't overwhelmed by the transcendent spiritual forces that descend upon you in the course of your studies, you will ascend and become one of the greater traditionalist masters in the metaphysical beyond

>> No.12706054

>>12706035
The recs on that list are dumb imo

I'm a Christian too and I started with Revolt against the modern world. There's stuff in the Traditionalist doctrine you won't agree with. I think Evola literally believes in Hyperborrean atlantic giants in a pre-historic again that we're all devolving from or some shit.

But their perception of history, society, modernity is pretty dead on. I just applied their worldview to Christianity. Evola and Guenon respect Catholicism to a degree but don't like Protestantism much

>> No.12706057

>>12705911
Actually read the book before making a comment you chapo trap house pay pig

>> No.12706071

>>12706035
This reading material will be wasted on you because you are a modern negrified anglo materialist dullard.

>> No.12706080

>>12705802
Where do I start with Guenon and Evola?

>> No.12706083

>>12706071
I really want to not value possessions though. I want to have a sacred bond between my wife and God, and eventually children. Sadly this gay ass clown world makes it so you need a lot of money to have a stay at home wife and kids.

>> No.12706086

>>12705802
>people who hate modernity in its totality
>right about anything
They're as bad as people who love modernity in its totality. Fools who aren't even engaging in philosophy, really.

>> No.12706096

>>12706080
Guenon - Crisis of the modern world

Evola - Revolt against the modern world

>> No.12706108

>>12706086
>Hating modernity in its totality
What does this even mean. They weren't Luddites or something

>> No.12706111

>>12706108
Finding nothing redeemable about the modern world.

>> No.12706113

>>12706029
As Jean Borella demonstrates in his books though, 'gnosis' in its 'mystical' variety was a key part of early Christianity and was included in the thoughts and works of important Christian thinkers who were themselves not Gnostics. It's unfortunate that the Gnostics were given the name they were because it sort of creates the impression that any sort of religious Christian gnosis is somehow unorthodox despite there being ample evidence for it in the bible, church fathers etc.

>>12706035
Starting with Guenon is usually recommended. The major Christian Traditionalist is Jean Borella but the general ideas of the school of thought and its critiques of modernity/philosophy/scientism/etc are usually considered to be laid out best by Guenon, even if you disagree with him on something like Hinduism etc he helps alot in understanding other ones like Evola and Borella.

>> No.12706125

>>12706083
>you need a lot of money to have a stay at home wife and kids.
There's that negrified materialist anglo Protestant thinking again. You don't need material wealth to achieve metaphysical realization. In fact in most cases, it's preferable that you have as little as you can.

>> No.12706131

>>12706111
Even big tiddied traditionalist gfs standing in wheat fields?

>> No.12706138

>>12706131
real talk tho
liking big tiddies = traditional
being an "ass-man" = modern, counter-traditional

>> No.12706144

>>12706131
So the only thing you find redeemable about the modern world is that you enjoy being consumed by the nostalgia it creates in you for the pre-modern? That's hardly finding something redeemable about the modern world.

>> No.12706145
File: 3.81 MB, 6161x5009, 1525880912113.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12706145

>>12706080
Follow this chart for Guenon, it's actually pretty good, all his stuff can be found free on archive.org. With most of the Traditionalist authors but especially with Guenon the later books reference a bunch of ideas explained in detail in earlier ones so it's best to read them roughly chronologically

>> No.12706149

>>12706080
Guenon: Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines
Evola: Either The Bow and the Club or The Recognitions

>> No.12706152

>>12706113
>As Jean Borella demonstrates in his books though, 'gnosis' in its 'mystical' variety was a key part of early Christianity
Yeah that's what Valentin Tomberg said as well. Christian small 'g' gnosis is very difficult from big 'G' Gnosticism

>> No.12706159

>>12706125
I do sometimes fantasize about leaving everything behind, converting, and living in an Orthodox monastery. I think I have it in me to rid myself of material possessions. What about a wife and children though? I already have enough going against me in the looks department, I doubt a female would put up with not having material stuff.

>> No.12706171

>>12706138
I never understood why you had to pick a side quite frankly. It's not like you're just fucking half of a woman.

Also this fixation on physical attributes is probably paganism disguised.

>> No.12706177

>>12706159
If you honestly believe you can live the monastic life for the rest of your days, then do it. There is no shame in living a life of celibacy.

>> No.12706186

>>12706159
My fiance is extremely opposed to a lifestyle of materialism, modest and frugal

The catch? We met during a meditation retreat, so those are the sort of people you need to interact with if you don't want to go celebate.

If you decide to go the monkish lifestyle blessings be with you, and I hope that you find peace.

>> No.12706205

>>12706186
>meditation retreat
I assume most people there were of the Californian Buddhist and New Age types, or only practice meditation and mindfulness as a way to cope with their modern lifestyles and not practice it for itself? If so, then no thanks.

>> No.12706207

>>12706149
>Bow and the club
How is this? I've been thinking about buying it

>> No.12706231

>>12705802
Everything pales compared with God. The sterile secular philosophies desperately try to find meaning, and one has to read 10000 faggy books just to cope. But the alternative is far simpler. Now go and pray and prepare yourself for the racewar.

>> No.12706234

>>12706207
It's an anthology of essays covering many topics from the spiritual to the political. It's not a bad intro to his work.

>> No.12706238

reading evola's grail but it's a drag desu, he assumes a lot of knowledge about obscure things, constantly says "as i have demonstrated earlier" and the whole thing feels meandering

>> No.12706240

>>12706231
>everything pales compare with God!!!
>i mean, except for the racewar. the racewar is way cooler than God, that fucking celestial faggot

>> No.12706242

>>12706054
Nephilim giants are real anon. Clearly you havent read your bible.

>> No.12706246

>>12706238
It's honestly not a very good book. And his interpretation of the Grail Cycle is meh at best.

>> No.12706247

>>12706238
This is why it's suggested to read the Traditionalists in chronological order.

>> No.12706249

>>12706207
Very excellent. Publishers did a great job.

>> No.12706327

>>12706177
But the problem is that I want children more than anything.

>> No.12706349

>>12706238
Careful with Evola's books, they're hit or miss. Some are amazing and others are a soozefest.

I just finished Ride the Tiger and about 80 pages of it were boring af

>> No.12706456

>>12705802
Stop using internet, computer and all technology then and forget about all scientific discoveries because it all anti-Traditional.

>> No.12706482

So you're claiming that society has been on a trend of nihilistic degeneration since some time in the bronze age, when philosophical speculation first began in early writings?

>> No.12706577

>>12706482
>So you're claiming that society has been on a trend of nihilistic degeneration since some time in the bronze age, when philosophical speculation first began in early writings?
no

>>12706456
That's not at all the argument. It's not a rejection of material. The problem is using technological advancement as an indicator for illusory "progress"

>> No.12706596

>>12705802
tradition could be compared to bees: a queen, whether it be due to an act of equity or whatever, who becomes a worker would surely see the hive crumble.

>> No.12706637

>>12705907
>the Warriors>Priests thing
not incorrect from the European perspective.
https://evolaasheis.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/action-contemplation-and-the-western-tradition/
https://evolaasheis.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/spiritual-authority-and-temporal-power/
https://evolaasheis.wordpress.com/2018/03/01/a-controversy-about-the-vedanta/

>> No.12706657

>>12706349
Which were amazing, in your estimation?

>> No.12706889

>>12705802
What's the point in Traditionalism if everything is set forward into Transhumanism, that will redefine what it means to be a human? I feel like it's more about nostalgia than actual truth. Technology and intelligence are the most important factors of any given society because that's what gives the platform of possibilities, everything else is noise. Most of philosophy is outdated, at this point I doubt they will find anything surprising about the human mind, it all leads to physicalism which logically leads to a type of open or empty individualistic view. Objectively, reality doesn't have any meaning, because there is no time and everything is merely a quantum field excitation, reductionistic but true. Tell me, how positivism or maybe postpositivism, didn't crash every philosophy to shreds exactly? To think that human intuition and rationality is worth something on its own is highly arrogant.

>> No.12706900

>>12706637
Please don't turn the Indo-European tripartition on its head anon, have some respect.

>> No.12706905

>>12706889
Logical positivism crashed itself 70 years ago. There are still enormous dark areas in our understanding of the human brain. Our science is pitifully inadequate in a lot of relevant field. Think how we've had Newtonian physics for more than 300 years yet we still can't solve the three-body problem of the Navier-Stokes equation, and we don't even really understand the dynamic of sand.

You're vastily overstimating modern science was vastly underestimating the philosophical difficulties around the general issues like consciousness or transhumanism (which is for now merely a meme shilled by relatively smart people, with no real scientific basis).

That said I would agree that traditionalism is mostly just cope at this point.

>> No.12706911

>>12706900
Dumezil's little boxes do not necessarily correspond to a historical reality. And Guenon's model of "tradition" does not correspond to Western civilisation either, something which he was willingly neglectful of. Read those articles, then come back to us.

>> No.12706915

>>12706900
naturally, this ought to be of no concern to you since you are likely not European.

>> No.12706919

>>12706205
You get all types. Remember that in order to find love, it's necessary to open your heart. Best of luck, my friend.

>> No.12706929

>>12706911
Tell that to the caste system in India, the class system in ancient Rome of the system of the three états in Ancien Régime France.

> And Guenon's model of "tradition" does not correspond to Western civilisation either

So why were you saying it make sense from an European perspective ? Are European not Western ?

>>12706915
I am as French as it gets basically.

>> No.12706935

>>12706889
Traditionalism isn't medieval LARPing and wheat fields. It's about creating a society centered around a theocratic hierarchy

The traditionalists discuss using science for spiritual purposes instead of "profane" purposes. Transhumanism wouldn't necessarily be be incompatible with Traditionalism except that it's a lot of effort for materialist purposes. Guenon predicted that the secular west's obsession with the advancement of technology would ultimately destroy itself due to the lack of Traditionalist structure. He explained that the current state of the secular west is pure chaos due to individualism, democracy, secularism, the cult of personality, and other things.

You can see as this secularist technology agenda goes on that things are actually getting worse. People are more depressed, people are taking more anti-depressants, people are getting sicker, people are more isolated, ect., this agenda won't go on like this. People are starting to hate it.

>reality doesn't have any meaning
Yeah that's a symptom from the dissolution from Traditionalism. To even ponder something like that means you are a modernist secular bug-person. The fact you're only discussing this topic in purely materialist terms means that you've never really looked into it. You're assuming reality ends on the physical plain of existence.

>> No.12706940

>>12706657
I liked revolt against the modern world even though it's a bitch to get through. Ride the Tiger was still pretty good besides the long section where he just replies to every philosopher of the 19th century

Metaphysics of sex and metaphysics of war were pretty good too

>> No.12706943

>>12706929
Lisez-donc 'Naissance de la noblesse' de K.-F Werner, mon ami. Et lisez ces articles d'Evola aussi. Pendant que vous y êtes, apprenez a mieux lire l'anglais.

>> No.12706947

>guys i read xyz and they have all the answers to everything philosophy is solved!!!
go away you pseud

>> No.12707001

>>12706935
>>12706935
>You're assuming reality ends on the physical plain of existence.
Because I have no evidence for otherwise, why do I need to take a leap of faith? because you said so? I don't have a problem with the idea of highly computational non-human intelligences, high dimensional realities and an omnipresent state of mind, but why do you assume these are not all part of the same field?
>He explained that the current state of the secular west is pure chaos due to individualism, democracy, secularism, the cult of personality, and other things.
I can I agree on this, it's context based tho, I can see how in a futuristic setting this discussion could become irrelevant.
>theocratic hierarchy
I see why hierarchy is currently important, but theocracy is IMO degenerate, I oppose religious dogmatism because I value truth. If we speak on political terms national socialism is what the west needs, but even that is merely a mean, not an end.
>Yeah that's a symptom from the dissolution from Traditionalism.
I'm not a cuck, I create my own meaning, and I understand the truth that reality is ultimately pointless, it doesn't mean that I fall into nihilistic mind state, because I can better myself and become a master.
>>12706905
>You're vastily overstimating modern science was vastly underestimating the philosophical difficulties around the general issues like consciousness or transhumanism
Maybe. But given the fact that some mental faculties do not need qualia or a subjective experience to perform or react to stimuli (see blind sight) I have a hard time believing in any "soul" concept. Also, only a small portion of animals can recognize themselves in a mirror which leads me to suspect that panpsychism is ultimately bullshit. Physicalism opens the path to a Buddhist view of "no-self", a very liberating idea I must say.

>> No.12707030

Why are you idiots so gullible? Are these the first works of philosophy you've ever read? Every philosopher's work "answers every question that every philosopher tries to get at" from their own framework. You've just discovered a framework...every single one determines the questions and the answers and their relations to other frameworks. Read other books...accept the harder truths that nothing is merely one way or the other, there is no completion to the work of thought, of the project of right and "wrong or good and bad or the infinite reconfigurations and rejections of these things. None of this makes any of the projects you will encounter useless or empty.

>> No.12707034

>>12707030
Additionally, this means that any project you adopt because it "ends" or "answers" philosophy is utter conceit and naivety.

>> No.12707038

>>12707034
This all stands for political reality and history as well of course...

>> No.12707040

>>12705833
>>12705911
Back to the discord, tranny.

>> No.12707064

>>12706943
Je ne suis pas ton ami, mon petit vieux.

>> No.12707075

>>12707001
>But given the fact that some mental faculties do not need qualia or a subjective experience to perform or react to stimuli (see blind sight) I have a hard time believing in any "soul" concept.

I would end to agree but remember we're limited not only by our current capacity for observation but also by our ability to conceptualize phenomena within the current scientific framework. In the time of Laplace it made sense to want all science to be deterministic, and anyone talking about probabilistic phenomena would have been considered unscientific or very odd at the very least.

Now we have quantum indeterminacy and Bell's inequalities. Some form of non-determinism forced its way in our understanding of science. Any early pronouncement is liable to look ridiculous in hindsight, such is the way of science.

>Also, only a small portion of animals can recognize themselves in a mirror which leads me to suspect that panpsychism is ultimately bullshit.

I'm not sure what mirrors have to do with panpsychism.


>Physicalism opens the path to a Buddhist view of "no-self", a very liberating idea I must say.

If that works for you. I won't pretend that materialism hasn't anything going for it or that materialist traditions didn"t have very cogent thinker, that would be disingenuous of me.

>> No.12707095

>3 trad threads in 24 hours
can you faggots just go back to /x/ already

>> No.12707131

>>12705829
N would disagree

>> No.12707152

>>12706054
>I think Evola literally believes in Hyperborrean atlantic giants in a pre-historic again that we're all devolving from or some shit.
I think it was more that he was using prehistorical myth to illustrate the ideal traditionalist society, although he may be open to the idea that the Hyperborean civilization was real. It's not something we could know because of the limitations in our historical science.

>> No.12707163

>>12705802
tradition is reactionary
race doesn't exist
gender is arbitrary
the frankfurt school was right-wing
>>>/pol/

>> No.12707241

>>12707001
>I don't have a problem with the idea of highly computational non-human intelligences, high dimensional realities and an omnipresent state of mind, but why do you assume these are not all part of the same field?

they are, all of these realities are coextensive with each other, you won't find a single line in Evola actually arguing for castles in clouds, it's a meme

> Also, only a small portion of animals can recognize themselves in a mirror which leads me to suspect that panpsychism is ultimately bullshit.

take the Whitehead pill, what is primary and universal is a relatedness or a "taking-into-account" of which consciousness is only an extremely complex manifestation

>> No.12707327

Evola was right, you're all fucking idiots. Nietzche btfo, except for a select few. There's no way around it. You're not gonna become a master, you're going to remain an insufferable little bitch like you always are and have been. Keep denying the transcendent aspect of this existence, with or without it the true ascetic will crush you're goals and dreams, with your own weapon that which is the will. Have a good day sirs.

>> No.12707345
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12707345

Fuck traditionalism I want to become a robot

>> No.12707356

>>12707095
Traditionalism threads and the authors mentioned in them are much better than the usual people being spammed like Whitehead and Deleuze

>> No.12707361

>>12706349
Have you read Nietzsche or Heidegger before reading RtT?

>> No.12707364

>>12707356
lmao it isn't, at least whitehead and deleuze are based in rational thought. Meanwhile traditionalism is most of the time spooky voodoo.

>> No.12707507
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12707507

>>12707364
You obviously haven't read any of these authors. In most of their books ideas and various thinkers and schools from eastern philosophy among other things are discussed and referenced extensively, this is often what forms the majority of the book aside from the books that devote themselves more to societal critiques. Eastern philosophy includes many areas of rational thought, see:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-india/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-epistemology/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-language-tibetan/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/perception-india/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-india/

The Traditionalists tend to focus on the more mystical and metaphysical eastern thinkers but even these thinkers and their schools often have solid groundings in ontology and epistemology, the Vedantic thinkers use logic all throughout their writings and constantly critique other schools of Indian logic like Nyaya, The Chinese Buddhists and Tibetans have a bunch of writing on ontology and epistemology and so on. And this is all secondary in that most eastern schools generally understood that logic can only go so far and that there are some things which must be experienced intuitively and directly to really comprehend them, although this never precluded them from using logic and rational thought when appropriate. It's the mistaken view that logic is the end-all be-all that has led to the trainwreck of the course that western philosophy took.

That you would consider clowns like Whitehead and Deleuze as more worthwhile than eastern thought (which is what the Traditionalists write about) is really cringe-inducing. Imagine getting memed by a Papuan New Guinian net-weaving community into thinking those people are somehow exemplary thinkers, (or even worse, imagine being the one spamming them in the first place and then being upset when people like the Traditionalists more, yikes!). Whitehead seems interesting if you haven't read much eastern thought but is like a kid playing with crayons compared to Vedantic, Mahayana and even Sufi metaphysics, and unlike him those thinkers were not spiritually atrophied Anglos trying to secularize religion though a pseudometaphysics which inevitably degrades the teachings involved. Deleuze is a useless charlatan, him and his whole nexus of French thinkers in their constant attempts to posture and flex on eachother just regurgitated a mass of already intellectually-bankrupt ideas like Marxism and Freudianism combined with personal attacks on each other. In the cases where they try to lump in Spinoza and Heidegger you can often find easterners who delimit those ideas better anyways. It's all a bunch of meaningless self-referential bullshit, It's like trying to decode an encrypted language only to realize that it's just an encoded tv program guide, there's nothing of worth under all the posturing.

>> No.12707522

>>12707364
Lmao imagine believing this

Whitehead and Deleuze are babby's first dependent origination/Indra's Net extended into autistic anti-Kantian polemics for 6 gorillion pages, still better than the arch-autist, Kant himself, though

>> No.12707558

>>12706482
that's basically the position of every person who does not believe history ended with hegel, even if they have not realized it yet.

>> No.12707568
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12707568

>>12705802
Traditionalism is huge cope, a last effort to pretend that there is any meaning in life. The only thing that matters is being attractive enough so that you can sustain hedonism throughout your entire life. The blackpill is the end of philosophy.

>> No.12707571

>>12707568
Lol nah, god I wish social media-obsessed boomers would fuck off this board, them and that gigachad faggot

>> No.12707573

>>12707568
I agree traditionalism is pathetic but what is 'cope?'

>> No.12707583

>>12707568
Spiritual realization and attainment is infinitely more fulfilling and satisfying than sex, drugs, the best food and whatever other hedonistic desire you could think of.

>> No.12707585

>>12706138
i like big breasts and don't like bottoms, but whenever i've told this to other guys they laugh at me and tell me i'm still a child...

>> No.12707596

>>12706138
what if you like both?

>> No.12707599
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12707599

>>12707585
That's because they have been spiritually negrofied, true hyperboreans always prefer breasts.

>> No.12707607

>>12706125
>In fact in most cases, it's preferable that you have as little as you can.
~sent from my iphone

>> No.12707617

>>12707599
what happened to iceland though

>> No.12707618

>>12707599
How would they know what is preferred in North Korea?

>> No.12707622

>>12707568
that guy on the right is so cute, i wish i could be that authentic to myself

>> No.12707632

>>12707030
Like that's just your framework bro

>> No.12707637

>>12707599
don't be racist, please. but it does seem that the modern trend is all the way towards backsides, and any man confident enough to proclaim he loves the bosom most of all, is shamed for saying so. i just wish i had a loving girlfriend with huge soft breasts who'd let me suckle them whenever i'm feeling sad or stressed and need to feel calm, and she could sit there doing other things while i do it, or she could fully attend to me if she wanted, like cooing and gently putting her hand on the back of my head. but none of this will ever happen, i'm just a degenerate with unattainable fantasies

>> No.12707639

>>12707618
I guess Rocket Man must like butts

>> No.12707660

>>12707599
If all those red countries (and India) vanished, the world would be paradise

>> No.12707665
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12707665

Lol idiots, there is no objective morality in any of these thinkers. Evola promotes butt sex and Crowley.

>> No.12707676

>>12707507
acutally they're nazis

>> No.12707703
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12707703

The one true religion

>> No.12707712

>>12707676
Wrong, most of them with the exception of Evola (who only did so partially) condemned the Nazis. Guenon viewed all modern ideologies like nationalism, Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Socialism, liberal democracy as all being degenerate forms of organizing society disconnected from the cosmic order which usually manifests itself as some form of either theocracy or theocratically-sanctioned monarchy; that all of these modern ideologies stem from a place of being disconnected from the supreme principle from which proceeds everything, resulting in people trying to immanentize the eschaton and creating as a result general havoc and a disorder in all realms from the spiritual and metaphysical to the physical and moral. In their view things like sharia law, the Hindu caste system and the Chinese mandate of heaven are all the natural order of things, which hardly qualifies them as being Nazis. If anything their views are in alignment with what the vast majority of humanity has agreed with for most of history.

>> No.12707723
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12707723

>>12707703
It's ironic you post that trying to mock Hinduism when first of all Hindus are most often the one's willing to say there are multiple paths to God and that Hinduism is not the only true religion, and also because self-mutilation for religious purposes has an extensive history in all of the Abrahamic religions, it's sort of the pot calling the kettle black (and it's only ever butthurt Christfags who post those inane bait attempts so I can safely assume you are one)

>> No.12707796
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12707796

>>12707723
>Multiple paths to God
You see that's my problem, it seems that Eastern Thought likes to say that all reality is one big Monad, or that all reality is subjective experience. I just don't get it what's the truth?

>> No.12707801

>>12705802
baby first philosophy

>> No.12707838

There are dozens of philisophers that identified the crisis of modern age without needing to crawl back into some magified instance like Tradition. Read Gabriel Marcel. Read Paul Tillich. Read Ortega y Gasset. Existencialism is a better "correlationist" answer to the death of God than tradicionalism, even.

Now, if we REALLY want to tackle the main issues of the antropocene, there's people studying that right now, including Negarestani, Sloterdijk, various others, and tradicionalism will sound like kids circlejerking over the fetichization of decayed dogmas.

>> No.12707871

Evola was the most sane and rational out of all traditionalists desu.

>> No.12707877

>>12707838
>he thinks traditionalism is an answer to nihilism
Absolute pleb
Traditionalism is what you find when you have overcome and answered nihilism long ago

>> No.12707900

>>12707723
>falling for the ‘le hippy hindoo xD’ meme
Are you even aware of what’s going on in India? I used to live in Orissa and have seen whole mobs chimping out because of beef and shit. Of course not all Hindus are like that but we’re definitely seeing a rise in degenerate tards who believe Modi is a god and that Hanuman was an historical monkey man who actually lifted a whole island

>> No.12707915

>>12705802
based

>> No.12707920

>>12705907
exactly, and this is why Guenon is and will always be superior

>> No.12707924

>>12707877
based, this guy gets it, traditionalism isn't for tadpoles

>> No.12707934
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12707934

>>12707796
>it seems that Eastern Thought likes to say that all reality is one big Monad, or that all reality is subjective experience
why don't you actually read them?

>> No.12707973

>>12707838
Lol negarestani, yet another faggot whose turned his fascination with the cyberpunk genre into theory. Yawn. People go to traditionalism for praxis, the critique of modernity is secondary to this need

>> No.12707988

>>12707900
That is not incompatible with what I said at all, of course there are still intra-religious conflicts and tensions between Hindus and Muslims and others but generally Hinduism in its literature and often in its major denomination and sages is much more open to that concept than other religions. With a billion or so Hindus though of course you can easily find all sorts of exceptions. Frankly muslims are treated much better in India than non-muslims are in most muslim countries. If you don't want trouble than you should respect the traditional customs of the place you live.

>> No.12708037

>>12707920
yes, for those of an Asiatic disposition, such as yourself.

>> No.12708073 [DELETED] 

>tfw "traditionalism" is a bunch of New Age woo-woo garbage
this stuff is hot garbage that could effectively lobotomize you at an even faster rate than reading the Frankfurt School. read Lasch, Murray, or Spengler instead.

>> No.12708080

>>12707617
Iceland was founded by a true-bloodied band of strong yoruba who became whitened by intense exposure to cold and lack of sunlight.

>> No.12708101
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12708101

>tfw the "traditionalist" school of reactionary thought is a bunch of New Age woo-woo posturing bullshit, a monstrosity ironically only made possible by the modern era.
this stuff is hot garbage that could effectively lobotomize you at an even faster rate than reading schizophrenic French obscurantists. read Lasch, Murray, Junger, Spengler, or MacIntyre instead if you want to dissect modernity to its core without becoming a living meme.

>> No.12708105

>>12708101
nah

>> No.12708114

>>12708105
>muh Kali Yuga!!! muh LARP as nobility
so traditional... so anti-modern... watch out neoliberals

>> No.12708116

>>12708114
pseud nigger brainlet retard insect

>> No.12708119

>>12708114
dude you recommended spergler as an alternative. You have no leg to stand on.

>> No.12708156

>>12708119
>recommending a European philosopher and historian who largely stays in his lane, the Western tradition, while eviscerating modernity... is somehow akin to an abominable syncretism of Hinduism and Hermeticism mixed with aristocratic LARPing.
I recommended Spengler if you wanted a more right-brained, mystical approach to tackling modernity as an alternative to Evola & Guenon, if you really needed to scratch that itch.

>> No.12708160

>>12708156
you've never read Evola or Guenon, have you

>> No.12708164

>>12708156
If I wanted a 'right brained' approach to modernity I would read Heidegger and Badiou not a literally who 'muh race' meme.

>> No.12708182

>>12707988
>generally Hinduism in its literature and often in its major denomination and sages is much more open to that concept than other religions
That sort of perennialism has been in decline for a while now, I know Hindus who don’t even want to tolerate Sikhs. Yes this is anecdotal but it’s also a large trend that should be obvious to the West pretty soon

>If you don't want trouble than you should respect the traditional customs of the place you live.
These days social media and fake news play a large role in stirring up tension. One random pajeet could go on facebook and say “I saw Herbert Mendonza eating a beef sandwich”, and before you know it a mob of 400 Hindus has burned poor Herbert’s home to the ground

>> No.12708206

>>12708164
I was going to suggest Heidegger, but you can't really sample Heidegger's critiques of society without understanding his work on Being, which could easily be six months to a year of studying just to get some grip on it. Besides, metaphysics was his primary focus. I've never read Badiou so I can't comment on that.

Anyway, if you're going to call Spengler a "literally who" focused on "muh race", but not Guenon or Evola, then you're being spitefully uncharitable. Even Heidegger veered into that territory, because newsflash, the character of civilizations is determined by the people who built them.

>>12708160
I got memed into reading Revolt against the Modern World and the Crisis of the Modern World by /lit/ and /pol/. To my dismay, a good half of it was New Age gibberish. Apparently, according to a chart passed around here, I was supposed to read a bunch of similarly-themed rags before I would "truly" get Evola. It's an experience that I would not recommend.

>> No.12708218

>>12705911
Tradition is literally aligning yourself (and your population) with a narrative that you attempt to make as eternal as possible. All diversions from tradition are reactionary.

>> No.12708226

>>12708037
In all the main characteristics of western thought you can find parallels in certain eastern schools and sects, the main difference is that instead of becoming the predominant paradigm materialism and naturalism (like Vaisheshika, Carvaka, various Astika schools) were only briefly popular in the 1st millenium BC but were eventually rejected and relegated to the background of eastern history. In everything that people usually associate (or that Evola associates) with the west from Theistic devotion to a focus on action you can find direct parallels in India alone let alone the rest of the east. The west also has its own contemplative strains of thought with stuff like Neoplatonism in particular and its reverberations throughout things like Christian mysticism and German Idealism. The picture that Guenon and Evola each paint of the east vs west in both cases necessarily involves some generalizations but I kinda see Guenon's as being more on the money. Guenon was not fundamentally anti-western and saw Neoplatonism, Hermeticism, and the middle ages as being western expressions/reflections of the same traditional truths as in the east, he just thought the course of the west post-renaissance was bad. Guenon was unironically more optimistic on the future of the west than Evola was and wrote about how western elites studying traditional doctrines could potentially remedy some of the issues with the west/modernity while Evola was the one who was totally black-pilled and who thought people should just focus on their own "riding". I don't see Guenon as being anymore "Asiatic" in his outlook, I like Evola but I kinda see that as a forced meme by him that he pushed in order that he could distinguish his ideas from Guenon more.

>> No.12708247

>>12708206
Racialism is a spiritually braindead diversion for simpletons who believe everything is more or less completely static and don't dare believe for a second that these categories themselves are culturally bound and did not always exist. At worse you get retards who claim melanin gives them spiritual powers or that their pure aryan blood means that the world is trying to keep them down.

>> No.12708268

>>12708206
Can you summarize the gist of Heidegger for me pls? pls pls pls. everyone says he's super smart but i know nothing of him

>> No.12708274

>>12708247
>Racialism is a spiritually braindead diversion for simpletons who believe everything is more or less completely static
Unfortunately you are right. I much prefer the natural plenitude and many goals -seeking behavior we had before globalism and nationalism. Well, 'before' is a relative term due to it seeming to be a recurring event, enough to be codified in the Tower of Babel myth.
You know, if we could only diverge enough to become entirely different species.

>> No.12708280

>>12708268
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Heidegger#Philosophy
boy that was difficult

>> No.12708290

>>12708247
>>12708247
t. clueless about population genetics
Just because some ideologues had stupid ideas before doesn't prevent us from thinking of better ideas today.

>> No.12708324

>>12708182
Our modern world is just chaos, in my view. Everywhere you look to you'll see it. I'm Indian and I agree with the insanity of today's generation of Hindus. I used to identify with that label, not anymore. I relinquish all such tribal identities now. Now I'm just independently spiritual, no specific creed in tow. That said those violent and primitive Hindus today, much like their European counterparts who frequent forums like this one, are reactionaries, and therefore products of previous events in history. Not condoning them at all, just reminding that everything we see today, in any part of our world, has only become this way by the events which happened before this lifetime of ours.

I don't know what the solution to the madness is. It's ironic that Hindus, the ones who coined the term Kali Yuga and described the immorality to be found in it, are part of that lawlessness themselves.

I really don't know, bro. I hate our modern world. Goodness is found nearly nowhere. Every year gets worse. All I want is to be kind to others, and every year people get more and more embroiled in these modern divisions. I really hope all that Kali Yuga stuff is true, and that a savior will appear in future and restore this world to a Golden Age, and that we aren't just in a bad era of our own making, which will be here as long as we keep it such. I hope it's a genuine cosmic cycle type thing.

I don't know anything other than the fact that I want to leave this planet for good once this lifetime is over. I don't know why we had to incarnate here and now, of all possible planes and all possible eras that must exist out there.

>> No.12708483

>>12708247
>clueless about what Evola actually wrote on the matter

>> No.12708519

Am I wrong for believing Evola would have prefered Salazar's Estado Novo to Mussolini's Italy?

>> No.12708520

>>12708247
>biology is culturally bound
Racialism is often tiring like most material aspects of life but it is certainly not muh social constructs.

>> No.12708655

>>12708520
race is biologically irrelevant

>> No.12708694

>>12708655
t. brainlet
you can call it race, you can call it population, you can call it cline, but the fact of the matter is all distinct populations are going to have substantial differences in the distribution of genes. the further away in lineage without stabilizing gene flow, the more genetic divergence you will typically find.

>> No.12708712

>>12708694
That doesn't mean "white" or "black", seething ameritard. If you want proof of your retardation, go on /pol/ and see how they define "white". No italians, germans, anglos, etc. You end up with othing.

>> No.12708722

>>12706577
>no
>All philosophical abstract questions are only being asked because of the dissolution of Tradition. The questions are symptoms of nihilistic degeneration of a society.

The Upanishads, which tackle questions such as being, existential purpose, ethics, ontology and many more, have entries authored as early as 6000 BCE.

>> No.12708735

>>12705833
I'm tired of people calling Evola a nazi. Evola said fascism had the POTENTIAL to be something perennial but it never fulfilled that roll. The Gestapo considered Evola a threat to be eliminated. He even jumped out his own window to avoid blackshirts from taking him away. The trial where he claims to be a 'mega fascist' is a miss translation of the Italian Supera which means above. He was trying to say that he was above fascists but anglocentric translators are always biased. They project their own fascistic tendencies and reject the subjects. Just like how they translated Nietzsche's overman as superman. TLDR SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU DONT KNOW SHIT.

>> No.12708747

>>12708712
White and black americans are clearly different races. Black Americans have something like 20% European ancestry but the rest is mostly West African

Italians aren't anglos, but theyre much closer to Anglos than to Nigerians. Everybody understands this because it's not hard to grasp

>> No.12708749

>>12708655
it literally isn't, you discarded mulatto.

>> No.12708759

>>12708747
Because Italians have been accepted as white over time. Same with jews, despite them trying to claim they are nonwhite when it is inconvenient for them. There's papers out now debating whether or not Asians will be included as white in the near future.

>> No.12708763

>>12708722
I think that's an erroneous date. If you're taking a Hindu perspective they're eternal and don't originate at a specific time. Academic perspectives put them as early as 800 BC.

>> No.12708769

>>12708712
>go on /pol/ and see how they define "white". No italians, germans, anglos, etc.
most of that shit is ironic memeing or sheer autism. meds calling nords non-white, nords calling meds non-white, etc. taking them to be the consensus of racial science, despite having zero knowledge of biology and statistics, is ridiculous.

either way, italians, germans, brits, etc., are all to some extent distinct from one another, but they are all far more similar to each other than they are to populations in Africa. granted, many populations in Africa are as different from one another as they are different from European populations, so "black" is a sloppy term to describe any African population outside of the Americas, but the proof of concept is still there.

>> No.12708785

>>12708759
Italians are genetically closer to Anglos than Nigerians. It's not a matter of acceptance, it's just the way it is

You can draw the boundaries however wide you like, but you can never say 'nigerians are white but italians aren't' if 'white' includes anglos

>> No.12708787
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12708787

>>12708759
>continues to parrot bullshit ideology instead of looking at the population genetics
Italians were always "white", regardless of what some retard WASP thought in the 1880s. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are also "white" by lineage. Asians will never be "white".

>> No.12708791

>>12708763
Added an extra 0 by accident. Regardless this puts them during the transition from the bronze to the iron age. Has it really been a nihilistic degeneration from that point on? That's idiotic.

>> No.12708809

>>12708785
>Italians are genetically closer
Who determines the line? Are Indians white because they are Aryan? The US courts in US vs. Thind determined that "whiteness" was "common sense", and not up to scientific opinion, because by all means scientifically high caste indians are Caucasian.
>Italians were always "white", regardless of what some retard WASP thought in the 1880
Brainlet revisionism

>> No.12708815

>>12708759
>Asians

C'mon dude, italy is in Europe. Many italians have similar traits as Northeuros and viceversa. How can an ethnicity on the other side of the planet, with non Indo-European languages, with different physical characteristics be considered Caucasian? I mean, If Indians would be considered white it would still make more sense than east asians

>> No.12708826

>>12708809
Even racialists in the 19th century considered them white. Mediterrean was a sub species of "aryans". For some reason, slavs we're not. Go figure

>> No.12708829
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12708829

/lit/ likes traditionalism since it is an edgy anti-modern philosophy that doesn't require the same amount of background knowledge to get into it as a typical philosophical school. Most people who read these authors have absolutely no personal spirituality and only like the concept of transcendence as a far off ideal. Don't get me wrong, I think Guenon is a great writer, but he is vastly overrated on this site. We have THREE threads in the catalog pertaining to traditionalism last I checked and regularly have them almost every other day. There are other religious figures that are far more important in the history of esoteric and exoteric thought that aren't brought up simply because they are not en vogue.

>> No.12708830

>>12708809
>Who determines the line?
the only people worried about the “line” are terminal autists and disingenuous idealogues

>> No.12708838

>>12708809
There is no real line dude. The point is that saying 'anglos and italians are white in comparison to nigerians who are black' everybody understands what, sbeing said, and it refers to actual genetic distance.

The group that includes both black people and white people includes everybody on earth except the Pygmy and Bushmen.

Indians that have Indo-european heritage are 'part-white' if you want.

>> No.12708840

please don't get mad at me for asking this, but are you spiritualanons also kind irl? Do you care about people around you and try to be good to everyone?

pls don't get mad i'm just tryna gauge the personalities who follow these schools, i'm not judging anyone, just curious to know what people into spiritual doctrines are like

bc for me personally i'm very sad in life, most people from highschool onward have only "othered" me, they have no interest in me at all, they are not even kind to me, they don't enjoy speaking to me, and overall i'm just incredibly sad and alone in life, partially because of this. it's okay, i use music to heal myself. i just wish more people would be kind, then i'd be less depressed and life would be a bit easier for me and others in the world in my position...

>> No.12708847
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12708847

>>12708809
>trusting courts over the facts of mutations, drift, and lineage
>science is revisionism

>> No.12708850
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12708850

>>12708840
Stop baiting this every thread. We get it. Mommy will come and cuddle you now.

>> No.12708856

>>12708840
>but are you spiritualanons also kind irl? Do you care about people around you and try to be good to everyone?
no, i'm alpha.

>> No.12708860

>>12708840
you're going to get sucked into a cult one day

>> No.12708862

>>12708838
This 'genetic closeness' is arbitrary, and decided on a cultural basis. You can chart the historic process through which Jews, Italians, Irish, and slavs become considered white. This racial fetishism has no value in spiritualism.

>> No.12708866

but you are a better authority and marker of public opinion, anonymous poster

>> No.12708868

>>12708829
You're in every traditionalist thread talking the same shit. I can tell it's you because you always give a disclaimer about how you think Guenon is a good writer with your stupid frog pictures.

>> No.12708871

>>12707361
I read Nietzsche after I read RtT. I haven't read Heidegger yet, where should I start?

>> No.12708872
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12708872

>>12708862
>This 'genetic closeness' is arbitrary

>> No.12708879

>>12708862
The genetic closeness is not arbitrary, the term 'white' is certainly arbitrary as fuck.

Im with you on it not mattering for spiritualism though. At least I lean towards that view.

>> No.12708880

>>12708862
>This racial fetishism has no value in spiritualism.
Neither is the autistic insitence on ethnos not being real, it's almost like there's an agenda behind that.

>> No.12708881
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12708881

>>12708872
>There is no real line dude.
>it refers to actual genetic distance.
>it's not arbitrary
>There is no real line dude.

>> No.12708882

>>12707568
>The blackpill is the end of philosophy.

This isn't true because the blackpill and hedonism bring misery and nihilism, even for people who successfully sleep with 100 beautiful women they are still miserable

>> No.12708889

>>12708881
It's like colour m8. Ultraviolet and violet are next to each other, 'closer' to each other than either is to red. But there's no dividing line between the colours, they jsut blend into each other

not the greatest metaphor because it's not a one dimensional sliding line like colour, but hopefully you get the point about the boundaries being blurry

>> No.12708892

>>12707665
Yeah as a Christian, I agree Evola believed in things contrary to Christianity. But his overall conception of a religious order stoking the flame of humanity was correct. Also his ability to analyze secular modernity and contrast it with a truly religious society

>> No.12708893

>>12705802
fuck off Richard Spencer

>> No.12708896

>>12708881
>hurr what’s the exact line between red and orange
>there isn’t one
>DURR I KNEW IT COLORS DONT EXIST
This is how stupid you sound to normal people. It’s okay to admit you were wrong.

>> No.12708904

>>12707900
Yeah this is why I disagree with Guenon and Evola's fetish for hinduism, but still agree with their other theories

>> No.12708907

>>12708862
>This 'genetic closeness' is arbitrary, and decided on a cultural basis.
No it isn't. There is only one measure of lineage, and it is objective: variations in DNA. If you choose to categorize populations into "races", then you have to maintain a certain cutoff of genetic distance in order to be coherent. Most historical categorizations of race (i.e., English are white, Scottish are white, Germans are white, French are white, Hungarians are white, Irish are not white, Italians are not white, Poles are not white, etc.) would immediately fail this test and thus ought to be discarded as ideological rubbish. But like I said before, just because previous notions of "whiteness" have been garbage doesn't mean that there isn't such a thing as "whiteness".

"White" refers to the biologically-related populations of Europe, who share similar properties of geography, history, and culture, that are noticeably distinct from other meta-populations of the world when considered as a whole. I was going to trot out the color spectrum analogy as an example of how fuzzy demarcation lines and the presence of a spectrum doesn't disprove the existence of something, but it has already been brought up several times.

>> No.12708923

>>12708862
Is Laurence Fishburne white, Sargon?

>> No.12708938

>>12708247
This

Race and ethnicity is real and it matters but it also doesn't at the same time, if you know what I mean

>> No.12708942

>>12708519
He praised that time in history as being one of the peaks of humanity cuz HOLY WAR, so probably

>> No.12708964

>>12708829
>dude forget Traditionalism, let's have endless Delueze, Whitehead and Montaigne threads lmao
>you aren't qualified to not like most of western philosophy unless you spend 8 years reading through it to make sure you don't like it
like pottery

>> No.12708969

>>12708893
>fuck off Richard Spencer
Spencer has 100% never read Evola

I've heard him lightly refer to Evola and have absolutely no idea what he's talking about

>> No.12708974

>>12708850
>>12708856
>>12708860
thanks for the help

>> No.12708994

>>12708974
the one guy is right about cults I would be wary of that

>> No.12709015

How can traditionalists be right if the actual tradition itself is correct? If there's nothing new or novel to add, then of what value is traditionalist, reactionary, or conservative thought?
Either:
Tradition is incomplete, and therefore the traditionalist narrative is possibly correct by having a position from which it can make a critique but actually incorrect because it advocates an incomplete tradition from the past, or
Tradition is complete, and therefore traditionalism cannot possibly be correct without being a rehash of the traditonal narrative it purports to advocate, in which case why not just refer to the tradition itself?
You're being sold snake oil.

>> No.12709021

>>12705802
They were about 70 years ahead of their time unfortunately. What else is there to really know ?

You have been born into dark times to test whether you will be a mindless zog NPC or fight back with a warriors passion.

>> No.12709027

>>12705802
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS4JXh22YCA

>> No.12709059

>>12709015
>because it advocates an incomplete tradition from the past
No it doesn't. Stop relying on PhilosophyTube to read Evola for you. Traditionalism is the belief that there is an esoteric truth underpinning many of the legitimate religious traditions around the world and they find out what this esoteric truth is by studying what is perennial or common among the legitimate traditions. The Traditionalists are not trying to construct their own religion, and an easy proof of this is the life of Guenon. He advocates choosing a legitimate path which is suitable for you and become as devoted as you can. He chose the Sulfi path so he move to Egypt and lived that life.

>> No.12709125
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12709125

>>12709059
That was a very roundabout way of ignoring the argument and talking about something else instead.
>No it doesn't.
>Traditionalism is the belief that there is an esoteric truth underpinning many of the legitimate religious traditions around the world and they find out what this esoteric truth is by studying what is perennial or common among the legitimate traditions
So if this perennial esoteric truth underlying "legitimate religious traditions" is the "legitimate path," then what's the point of reading traditionalists instead of "legitimate religious tradtions?" Do you actually have a response to how a call for a return to the past can possibly be a result from a past that led us to a place where this would ever be necessary? If decay is the modern condition, then this very condition is the result of the historical development from the past and from the traditions you lionize in your panglossian mythologizing. If the traditions of the past led us to the present you reject, then of what use were the traditions of the past?

>> No.12709147

>>12709125
You read the traditionalist to discern what is and isn't a legitimate path, since that is the purpose of their studies. You're some psuedo Marxist determinist bullshit and I don't accept your assumptions. If the conditions of the past were perfectly replicated, it doesn't mean the current conditions is what necessarily follows. Traditional society don't necessarily become modernist ones.

>> No.12709167

>>12708969
This. Even worse, the alt-right has a habit of referring to anything comically evil as "Evolian." Compare with the old podcast with Spencer commentating on Nolan's "Batman Begins" and comparing Ducard with Evola. Absurd.

>> No.12709196

>>12709147
How can any traditionalist discern the "legitimate path" or "legitimate traditions?"
Obviously any adherent of a school of thought will assert the legitimacy of their own background. What does the traditionalist add that you yourself cannot discern from firsthand experience with these traditions? How can a decidedly modern critique or selection of traditions ever call itself traditionalism without mendacity?
>Traditional society don't necessarily become modernist ones.
Yet you can't give one counterexample, since they all have. Even if it is in posse historically different, in esse all tradition had led to where we are now. Rejecting modernity is rejecting the logical and empirical conclusion of tradition.

>> No.12709283

>>12709196
You really are an obnoxious person, dude. I've already told you how they find legitimate traditions. They do it by studying what is perennial. If you a more elaborate answer you're going to have to read the authors yourself. These guys specialize in comparative religion so if that's what you do, then fine, you don't need the traditionalists. What the fuck do I care? What exactly did you want an example of, society staying traditional? I gave you an example when talking about Guenon. Sufism. I don't think you're capable of having this conversation.

>> No.12709379

>>12706242
this desu senpai

>> No.12709397

>>12709147
>Traditional society don't necessarily become modernist ones.

You know this was actually the reason Evola used for not converting to Islam in his Cinnabar, right? So much for "Marxist determinism"

>> No.12709439

>>12709283
It's only obnoxious because I presented you with a simple dilemma that you refuse to address because you can't. Like the perennial huckster, whenever a problem with your panacea is presented to you, you attribute it to personal failing on the part of the interlocutor with adhoms to try and distract from your charlatanism.
If you didn't want your gossamer intellectual foundations laid bare, then you shouldn't have posted a thread talking about how your idols are infallible in their idol worship.

>> No.12709441

>>12709397
Traditionalism doesn't necessarily lead to non traditionalism therefore we don't have to convert to Islam? That doesn't make any sense.

>> No.12709450

>>12709439
It's obnoxious talking to you because you don't understand what I'm saying. If you can't read what I write you're not capable of having this conversation. What is this dilemma? I have a feeling I'm going to have to repeat myself.

>> No.12709465

>>12709441
What?

Evola suggested Islam would be subject to the same decaying forces or modernizing forces all traditions are, supposedly, subject to. Therefore, he wouldn't convert to Islam. Was he a Marxist determinist in your eyes?

>> No.12709476

>>12709450
I understand what you're saying, I just refuse to let you dodge the issue.
>What is this dilemma? I have a feeling I'm going to have to repeat myself.
That's rich coming from someone asking me to repeat myself because you didn't even read my posts.
>>12709015
>Either:
>Tradition is incomplete, and therefore the traditionalist narrative is possibly correct by having a position from which it can make a critique but actually incorrect because it advocates an incomplete tradition from the past, or
>Tradition is complete, and therefore traditionalism cannot possibly be correct without being a rehash of the traditonal narrative it purports to advocate, in which case why not just refer to the tradition itself?

>> No.12709482

>>12709465
He's not saying the material conditions of the past necessarily lead to the conditions of the present, so no. I wouldn't accuse him of psuedo Marxism. I hate when you cunts try to play "gotcha" while refusing to understand what's being said.

>> No.12709522

>>12709476
How the fuck am I supposed to know that post is you? You never asked me the question you accused me of dodging, you dumb cunt. I can't answer it because I don't know what the hell you're saying. It genuinely reads like gibberish to me.

>> No.12709523

>>12709476
>Tradition is complete, and therefore traditionalism cannot possibly be correct without being a rehash of the traditonal narrative it purports to advocate, in which case why not just refer to the tradition itself?
What exactly is the "tradition" then? How does one refer to it while sidestepping people who wrote about it?

>> No.12709532

>>12709476
The problem with your dichotomy is that the Traditionalist rejects that:

1) All traditions are equivalent
2) Truth has been faithfully transmitted by any current tradition

In fact, one of their primary principles is that all things in the duration of their being move further away from their essence and distort themselves. In other words, someone can be "Traditionalist/Perennialist" without maintaining the tradition in which they dwell or have dwelt is valid.

>> No.12709553

>>12709522
lol
If tradition is true and complete unto itself, then it requires no modern commentary or selection. Either this is the case, and traditionalism is at best superfluous distraction from the traditions themselves, or this isn't the case and traditionalism advocates a return to traditions which are incomplete, inconsistent, and untrue without revision.

>>12709523
>What exactly is the "tradition" then? How does one refer to it while sidestepping people who wrote about it?
That's precisely the problem. If traditions are true, even perennially true, then why not consult them directly? Why do you need it filtered through the lens of modernity with commentaries and selections from the traditionalist school? Why not just read the Quran or the Sutras themselves?

>>12709532
>The problem with your dichotomy is that the Traditionalist rejects that:
>1) All traditions are equivalent
>2) Truth has been faithfully transmitted by any current tradition
The dilemma requires neither of these assumptions.

>> No.12709578
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12709578

>>12709553
>If tradition is true and complete unto itself
I don't know what you mean by tradition. Are you about esoteric or exoteric? All exoteric traditions reflect the esoteric. It wouldn't many sense to call an exoteric tradition complete or incomplete because they can reflect the esoteric in any number of degrees. Any two exoteric traditions can perfectly reflect the esoteric in the same degree but in different ways.

>> No.12709579

>>12709553
>Why not just read the Quran or the Sutras themselves?

Why wouldn't you? Not like any of the major Traditionalist authors argue against it, these are basically formal non-arguments that I always see peddled around in these threads, pseuds who haven't done their homework still feel the need to mount an attack on a school of thought they subconsciously associate with some memelet caricature they need to disassociate themselves from. Never, ever discussions of the content of these traditions themselves. Where does anyone here argue the commentators of a tradition should take priority over the primary sources themselves? Inane.

And by the way, the corruptibility of the solar element, the inherent fatalism of the cycles, is in fact a pretty interesting question, but of course you wouldn't phrase it that way because you havent done any of the reading.

>> No.12709594

>>12709553
>If traditions are true, even perennially true, then why not consult them directly?
How do you do that without referring to the works of people who attempt to document and explain them? You're using vague language, so I'm having a hard time understanding your point unless you mean to say that we can't know nuthin'.

>> No.12709629

>>12709578
>>12709579
>>12709594
More equivocating and waffling.
Let's dispense with casuistry and make this very simple.
Is tradition complete (nothing new can be added to it without making another part of the tradition false), consistent ("legitimate tradition" does not contradict itself), and true (does not contain falsehoods)?

>> No.12709650

>>12709553
>The dilemma requires neither of these assumptions.

You clearly are making those fallacies, even in the other two responses you just gave!

>If tradition is true and complete unto itself, then it requires no modern commentary or selection.

Wrong. Truth is strictly personal. Its transmission, which is what properly constitutes a "tradition," must be adapted to the mentality, aptitude, and sensibility of the people in question.

Commentaries have always been seen as a legitimate tool for the so-called modern interpreter. It can only invalidate as far as a particular point of view is taken as independent of the principles which supersede and are prior to a point of view. The proper commentary is one that invites the interpreter to understand a particular point of the doctrine in an analytical way, which however fruitful, is always a restrictive grasp.

>Either this is the case, and traditionalism is at best superfluous distraction from the traditions themselves, or this isn't the case and traditionalism advocates a return to traditions which are incomplete, inconsistent, and untrue without revision.

I understand your point. Either our traditions are valid and it is pointless to innovate or reform them, or they are invalid, in which case it is pointless to appeal to them as being a source of truth. However, you mistake the "traditions" for what the Traditionalists claim is the true Tradition. They believe those traditions, of what is commonly referred to as the religions, are a fragmentation of a primordial truth. It is possible to both maintain that there is a valid tradition, that is, a valid way of transmitting what is properly the truth, and yet to deny that our traditions achieve that in an exhaustive manner or in an entirely appropriate manner. Does this make sense to you?

>> No.12709671

>>12709629
>Is tradition complete (nothing new can be added to it without making another part of the tradition false)
Tradition is synthetic and symbolic, so it is therefore complete AND something new can always be added to it.
>consistent ("legitimate tradition" does not contradict itself)
The essence is consistent, the expressions are multiple
>and true (does not contain falsehoods)
The Truth itself is True, and if Tradition, which is a reflection of Truth in our plane has accumulated extraneous features and even falsehoods during the course of time, this proves no obstacle to anyone with intellectual insight.

>> No.12709675

>>12709629
>(nothing new can be added to it without making another part of the tradition false),
Added to what? You keep referring to some vague notion of tradition, as if it was codified in some tablets that you could read out loud.

>> No.12709709

>>12709650
>Truth is strictly personal
If this is the case then it's impossible for tradition to be true, since tradition is always a transmission of the mores, values, mythologies, and rituals of a society to an individual. If the truth is strictly personal, then tradition can have no special status juxtaposed to whatever you come up with on your own. Seeking it becomes pointless, and is actually in tension with your own personal development. Looking to society for your personal truth at the expense of other sources, like intuition and nature itself is a hindrance and detriment.
>Does this make sense to you?
Sure, but there can be no primordial truth if truth is personal instead of universal.

>>12709671
>Tradition is synthetic and symbolic, so it is therefore complete AND something new can always be added to it.
Then by itself it is worthless, since you can dwarf the extant tradition with your own values. In fact, merely being able to do so demonstrates both your own personal virtue and the frailty of the past that came before you.
>The Truth itself is True, and if Tradition, which is a reflection of Truth in our plane has accumulated extraneous features and even falsehoods during the course of time, this proves no obstacle to anyone with intellectual insight.
Intellectual insight directs us to judge ideas on their own merit rather than their historical status. History can give us an outline of how ideas develop, but can never change the fundamental truth of an idea unless that idea itself is an assertion about history.
>>12709675
>Added to what? You keep referring to some vague notion of tradition, as if it was codified in some tablets that you could read out loud.
It often is.

>> No.12709723

>>12706900
Preistly class ruling is a christian thing
Warriors always ruled in pre-christian europe, the gods of war being the most important gods in the pantheons

>> No.12709733

>>12706096
>starting with revolt
So you've never read it? The fuck would you recommend his most difficult and complex work

>>12706080
His essays
Orientations is great
Then move on to Men Amongst The Ruins or Ride The Tiger
Only attempt Revolt after getting a general idea of his beliefs and the language he uses

>> No.12709737

>>12709709
>It often is.
Cite an example of a complete, codified tradition.

>> No.12709743

>>12709737
Sola Scriptura

>> No.12709749

>>12709743
>Sola Scriptura
That is incomplete. Even the entirety of Christian scripture, dogma, and customs doesn't cover the entirety of Tradition for even the most pious of "Christian" communities.

>> No.12709754

>>12709743
more like Sola disdickinya

>> No.12709755

>>12709723
look, you and him, what do you morons not get about sacred kingship, where the priest-king (as the name suggests) combines the function of both priest and king in his person?

>> No.12709761

>>12709749
For the denominations that subscribe to Sola Scriptura, anything outside of what is codified in the Christian Bible is irrelevant and does not comprise their religious tradition. They would maintain that all of those other practices are dispensible social arrangements which are unnecessary to and distinct from their religious practice.

>> No.12709771

>>12709761
That's just not true.Many beliefs that protestants hold rest solely on tradition and not the bible, for example:

-The determination of which books belong in the bible.
-The sanctity of human life from the moment of conception.
-The belief that public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle.
-Switching of the Lord's day, the Sabbath, from Saturday to Sunday.
-The prohibition against polygamy, which Martin Luther approved: "I confess," Luther wrote, "that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the scripture."

>> No.12709775

>>12709761
>anything outside of what is codified in the Christian Bible is irrelevant and does not comprise their religious tradition
Kek, they would be lying. Religion and its prescriptions constitutes a large part, but isn't the entirety of, Tradition.

>> No.12709781

>>12709755
Because a king should be a warrior first, priest second.
Like Caesar.

>> No.12709784

>>12709771
You can argue that Sola Scriptura is false, but you're wrong when you claim that it doesn't say that scripture and only scripture determines religious tradition and validity for the denominations that subscribe to it.

>> No.12709789

>>12709709
>Sure, but there can be no primordial truth if truth is personal instead of universal.

I think you're purposely misunderstanding me to avoid the direct argument. Regardless, I will elaborate on the point about truth if you acknowledge that the "dilemma" you put forward was addressed and solved.

>> No.12709792

>>12709784
The doctrine can say whatever it wants, what matters is the practice. It is wrong to say that everything outside of what is codified in the bible is irrelevant to protestants. Legitimate parts of their tradition, like the canon of the bible, are not in the bible itself.

>> No.12709794

>>12709789
I don't believe I am misunderstanding you, but claiming that truth is entirely relative to the individual is not a resolution, because it isn't something I'm willing to concede. The same response could be made to evidence of the heliocentric model by a geocentrist, and I would hope Copernicus would also fail to be convinced.

>> No.12709823

can any of you here at least try to help me please, i'm genuinely very down and depressed by life, and have no contacts irl to support me. i just don't know what to do in my life, to alleviate myself of this sadness. spirituality isn't much use bc many people who claim to be spiritual aren't really that kind to others, i think therapists and therapy circles are more spiritual than many groups which explicitly call themselves such. i just don't know what to do at this point, i'm so downtrodden

>> No.12709843

>>12709823
repentance, seriously. whichever format that takes in your religion, go and do it regularly and sincerely. good luck man.

>> No.12709920

>>12709125
>Do you actually have a response to how a call for a return to the past can possibly be a result from a past that led us to a place where this would ever be necessary?

So the Traditionalists don't believe in linear history, they believe in a series of repeating cycles. They see history as a cycle centering around the Golden Age where the Traditionalist religious theocracy is implemented through a healthy hierarchy, and then it naturally desegregates over time, the civilization crumbles, and then the cycle repeats where the Golden age is ushered in again in the ruins of the crumbled civilization.

It's sort of like that "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create bad times ect." meme you see going around. The secular materialism will naturally create the environment for the Traditionalist structure to be implemented again in the future.

You're possibly already seeing the beginning of it as the west is quickly degenerating as the rest of the world watches and eastern europe is implementing Christian states in response

>> No.12709933

>>12709167
I am pretty sure the people who quote evola in the "alt right" have never even read him. Before I read Ride The Tiger, I kept hearing that Evola advocates being a degenerate in the age of the Kali Yuga because there is no point in being moral in a moral-less society.

Then I read the book and there's nothing like that in there, at all. Evola says to plant your feet as a Traditionalist and wait for the current cycle to collapse on itself.

The "alt right" are fucking brainlets

>> No.12709955

>>12709733
>So you've never read it? The fuck would you recommend his most difficult and complex work

Because he lays out a sample of all of his ideas and beliefs in one work. That's the book I started with and I liked it

>> No.12709966
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12709966

>virtually all thinkers in the 20th century abandon tradition
>society goes down the shithole
what a coincidence

>> No.12709968

>>12709966
Evola claims the beginning of the end was the french revolution

>> No.12709972

>>12709968
napoleon tried to save europe but europe didn't listen

>> No.12709976

>>12705829
Metaphysics can definitely be a narrative

>> No.12709993

>>12706111
Morally speaking there is nothing redeeming about it.

>> No.12710049

>>12709823
try therapy/psychology, it's practically orientated. i can assure you that reading evola won't make you feel better.

>> No.12710062

>>12705802
this is such a boring take

>> No.12710085

>>12709823
Posting on a /lit/ thread about Traditionalism asking about personal problems seems like an odd combo. No one can solve it for you. There is no magic solution. It is within you. It's up to you and whether you have the self control to change your life and forget about the things you can't control. People will say it is more complicated, but that's really just a cope. Therapists won't fix anything for you; they are only useful for children who have no capacity to analyze their personality. All your faculties to be satisfied (not necessarily happy) are within you are this very moment. I suggest taking a walk and getting off the internet in general. Stop looking to others for help.

>> No.12710173

>>12709993
>Morally speaking
You sound as if you think your morals are universal. Consider updating them.

>> No.12710188

>>12709955
I tried reading that first and it was like reading long division

>> No.12710192

>>12709966
Ernst Junger believed that we're entering the darkest age of humanity, and that the 21st century will be the age of Nietzsche's Last Man. But he said things may improve in the 2200's.

>> No.12710199

>>12710173
If morality isn't universal, then it's arbitrary and as such there is no imperative for me to update my morals.

>> No.12710213

>>12709671
I'll try to support this argument with an analogy. Image ten painters who are given the order to paint one and the same landscape, but none of them will paint in the same manner, by example, one painter may be painting whilst observing the landscape in front of him, another one may be shown the landscape for an hour and then asked to paint it from memory, another one may paint in some abstract way expressing the landscape in such a way that the landscape is not 'literally' portrayed. Now take all of these paintings together and you will see that they all sort of resemble one and the same thing, yet they are all different paintings. Now let's imagine another painter, a fraud, who paints himself a painting too, without having ever seen the landscape himself, he may take elements from the original paintings, and it may resemble them, but it's not quite the same. The traditionalist will tell you that if you want to know the landscape you have to look at the paintings of those who have seen the landscape (who drew their inspiration from the source) and to disregard charlatans (made up religions, and I'd even dare adding protestantism to this group).

>The essence is consistent, the expressions are multiple

>> No.12710219

>>12710199
YOUR morals aren't universal. And your imperative to update them, or cling to them until death, is your desire for power.

>> No.12710241

>>12710219
I remember being 17 too.

>> No.12710245

>>12710241
Yesterday, right?

>> No.12710504

>>12707568
Yeah, dude, true power is sacrificing your life to impressing some thot who will medically wipe thousands of babies out of post-history.
So Chad, tv is awesome.

>> No.12710514
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12710514

>>12707838
>idz all gabbidull
>juzd worzhip gabidull end ull broblemz gon way

>> No.12710619

>>12705802
which tradition?

>> No.12710722
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12710722

>>12710619
>According to the Traditionalists, there are primordial and universal religious truths which are at the foundations of all major world religions. The Traditionalists speak of "absolute Truth and infinite Presence".[1] Absolute Truth is "the perennial wisdom (sophia perennis) that stands as the transcendent source of all the intrinsically orthodox religions of humankind."[1] According to Traditionalists, "the primordial and perennial truth" is manifested in a variety of religious and spiritual traditions.[2] Infinite Presence is "the perennial religion (religio perennis) that lives within the heart of all intrinsically orthodox religions."[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_School

>> No.12710740

>>12708101
>woo woo
cringe

>> No.12710758

>>12707573
>what is 'cope?'
This:>>12707583

>> No.12710827

Could Shintoism be used to reconstruct European paganism? From my superficial understanding it seems like the most comparable tradition.

>> No.12710835

>>12710827
You don't just reconstruct an ancient spirituality, but if you were to do such a thing, I would imagine that Hinduism or other Indo-European beliefs would be closer theologially. At least there was some connection between Greece and India, that can't be said about Greece and Japan

>> No.12710856

>>12709843
>>12710049
>>12710085
thank you three. i will try and implement all or as much of this advice as i can

>> No.12710885

How do I escape materialism guys?

I cannot escape the conclusions of modern science telling me that all that matters is money, fucking, war, domination, nor the conclusions of Nietzsche telling me that all my supposed virtues are just justifications for being a weakling

>> No.12710918

>>12710885
Read After Virtue and this:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mathphil-indis/
Property dualism and emergentism are reasonable worldviews.
These are still materialism, just not eliminative materialism.
The real question is why you want to stop believing materialism. If you believe it, why do you want to believe something you think is false instead?
This is the main reason Pascal's Wager fails to be a persuasive argument. We don't believe things because we think the belief is profitable, we believe them because we actually have reasons to believe they are true, like evidence and logical reasoning. You can't really force yourself to believe something you think is false, and it's futile and harmful to try.

>> No.12710941

>>12710918
>>12710885
don't read After Virtue, we just shat on that guy for recommending MacIntyre because he disparaged tradionalists as New Age bullshit

>> No.12710944

>>12710885
Matter is an abstraction, all you can be sure of is your internality, stop huffing the social Darwinism Kool aid nigger bitch

>> No.12710983

>>12707877
>>12707973
>the praxis
There is no way to be traditionalist in this day and age, not if you've already been in contact with technology/technique. You can't willfully ignore it, can't just turn back to society, because it will be a fetichization, it will be a sublimated affection. "Ride the Tiger" is precisely about that, if you've ever read it. The reason why people flock to tradicionalism "for the praxis" is because they are weak-minded, non-creative and nostalgia-craving losers. Just a bunch of retarded boomers masturbating to the idea of being a "timotic warrior" while living in their mother's basements.

>> No.12711009

>>12707877
>>12707973
>>12710983
Btw we are living in an age of miracles. Artistically, culturally, technologically, economically. The artifacts of experimenting-producing we have today are magical, and not "tellurical", and the reason you don't see this is because you are sheep. You are dalits, not warriors. You are living resentment-filled, simulated lives and wouldn't be able to see true value/beauty/meaning if it was in front of your face.

Wagner's pieces are fucking bad, nowhere near Enio Morricone or Philip Glass or David Bowie even. Rafael is shit compared to Matisse or Kippenberger. Greek plays are complete shit next to Philip Roth's or Borges. Film is the ultimate medium of expression.

There's tradition being built right now, there's Tradition in this very thin air. Mythologies are everywhere.

>> No.12711018

>>12710944
>Matter is an abstraction, all you can be sure of is your internality
When I think "matter is an abstraction," that isn't my conclusion. My conclusion instead is that "materialism" is not an accurate description of reality and is itself invented on the shadow falsehood, "immaterialism."

>> No.12711027

>>12711009
>>12710983
get a load of this guy

>> No.12711034

>>12711027
Nice answer, fuckwit.

>> No.12711048

>>12711027
>I like Dance Magic Dance better than Eine Kleine Nachtmusik therefore your arguments are invalid. Did I rustle your Jimmies? Mothers basedmend. In sells. lmao

>> No.12711053

>>12711009
In your worldview, how does one attain any sort of metaphysical/spiritual realization in our day and age?

>> No.12711090

>>12710983
>>12711009
People are actually attracted to traditionalism (and things such as fascism, for that matter) because of the complete loss of a shared understanding of the world, the absolute dominance of the profit motive as the impetus of creation and the growing alienation which is necessary for liberalism to continue living.
New traditions aren't being made. Niche markets are being made.

>> No.12711092

>>12711053
Through creative power and contemplation. Be an artist. Explore these endless lines of flight.

>> No.12711100

>>12711090
What you don't seem to realize is that "traditionalism" itself is a niche market. You're not really a yogi, you are a consumer of a certain type of identity that better fits them. The only way out of the consuming machine is reintegrating it through an imaginative personality.

>> No.12711103

>>12711009
cringe

>> No.12711104

>>12705802
Where should I start with them?

>> No.12711106

>>12711100
that better fits you*
was what I meant

>> No.12711149

>>12711090
You can't disregard all 20th/21st century art just because of muh capitalism. People who genuinely want to create things that are cool or beautiful or interesting still exist.

>> No.12711218

>>12711149
>>12711090
Yes. In fact, I'd argue this last century has been the golden age of art, both in depth and in variety. But maybe that's a deviation from the subject in question.

>> No.12711369

>>12710944
>how do I escape scientific facts
>lmao dude just be a solipsist

>> No.12711374

>>12710885
There is no escape

>> No.12711400

>>12706159
A monastery? What are you on, all you need to do is start with minimalism, the absolute entry-level philosophy of anti-materialism, from there start reading Epictetus and the Stoics, then once you're ready read up on the Cynics and how they lived, meanwhile start really analyzing your possessions, do you need most of what you own on a daily basis? Are they essential to your continued existence in the sense that you would - figuratively - die without them? Why do you want these things? Why do they give you any emotion at all? End on the Indians, I know this next recommendation will probably sound crazy, but hear me out, look into some of the tenants of Buddhism (no, not as a religion, but as a philosophy), it will greatly help with changing your views on material possessions. Really Indian philosophy is the greatest guide to living with the bare necessities (ex. Indian ascetics), but really if you follow the Bible you'd already be familiar inadvertently with both asceticism and cynicism because Jesus lives like a Cynic down to his directions to his followers as to how they should dress and that they should abandon their possessions prior to following him, etc. Excuse my inability to quote verbatim here, I haven't read a Bible in many years.

tl;dr - you are emotionally attached to various external objects, the connection was formed by habit over time, it can be broken the same way. Start slow, no one gets to their ideal on day one, keep getting rid of things until you're down to the bare necessities (which will change depending on where you live obviously), the easy way is to replace objects with experiences, once you start doing things for the sake of it instead of buying things to feel something, you'll lessen your appreciation of objects in general.

>> No.12711408
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12711408

>still being a traditionalist
Read your Nietzsche before posting on /lit/, thanks.

>> No.12711429

>>12711408
I've been over my Nietzsche phase for almost a decade. git gud

>> No.12711441

>>12711429
If you ended up at the traditionalists, you fucked up hard.

>> No.12711459
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12711459

>>12711408
Nietzsche was totally ignorant of eastern cultures aside from one or two poorly translated texts that he read, it's quite ironic that people make the mistake of thinking he is somehow a foil to the Traditionalists, if anything Nietzsche was reacting against some of the very same flaws of modern western society that the Traditionalists wrote about, the difference being in the absence of him understanding any alternative he tried to create his own solution whereas the Traditionalists look to the timeless principles extending beyond western culture which more unites the eastern ones and in some regards western culture in antiquity, the same era Nietzsche had such high regards for. From the perspective of the Traditionalists Nietzsche was just another lost thinker who had some inkling of the problem but was left flailing around in the darkness searching for what was lost, and was left just a sad broken mentally-ill little man.

>> No.12711461

>>12711441
"the yoga of power" makes nietzsche look like kiddie stuff

>> No.12711486

>>12711459
What a simple-minded understanding of Nietzsche's philosophy.

>if anything Nietzsche was reacting against some of the very same flaws of modern western society that the Traditionalists wrote about
Nietzsche didn't "react" in the same way the traditionalists tend to. This is how I know you don't know what you're talking about. Nietzsche also criticized the traditionalists and the historians, saying they "learn backwards" by studying history too much, and as a result do not understand the glory of past cultures and ultimately the glory of the present culture they live in.

>From the perspective of the Traditionalists Nietzsche was just another lost thinker who had some inkling of the problem but was left flailing around in the darkness searching for what was lost, and was left just a sad broken mentally-ill little man.
That's because they barely read him. Just like you.

>>12711461
>Nietzsche
>kiddie stuff
You have some warped idea of what Nietzsche was about because you have barely read him, but whatever.

>> No.12711502
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12711502

>>12711053
The translated primary texts from all the spiritual doctrines and traditions that the Traditionalists write about explain exactly how to do so quite clearly. Nobody can hand it to you on a silver platter, you have to do the reading and necessary reflection yourself. Studying them under a qualified teacher and also learning from said person is ideal, but there is already so much available material that has seen high quality translations with all the right footnotes and background info provided that even if you are self-taught with enough reading you can still have earth-shattering revelations and reach ineffable bliss.

>> No.12711537

>>12711009
Lmfao look at this cope post

>Philip Glass is better than Wagner!
Glass would likely not even agree with this. The superiority of past classical music could be demonstrated as being superior in multiple ways objectively.

>Greek plays are shit compared to Borges
Borges was an agnostic faggot. He fucking sucked besides his use of imagery. Borges has no universal truths in his work because he is agnostic, his works are mostly inspired by nihilism

>Technology is a miracle!
A miracle is a divine action. Technology is a man-made materialist tool. Those are not at all the same things

>> No.12711541

>>12711408
Nietzsche got BTFO by traditionalists, 100%

>> No.12711592

>>12711486
>Nietzsche also criticized the traditionalists
The people Nietzsche criticized have very little to do with the ideas of the Traditionalist school. That you apparently think Nietzsche's criticisms of the 'traditionalists' of his time apply to Guenon et al really shows you have no idea what you are talking about

>> No.12711636

>>12711592
Nietzsche wasn't a mere product of his time. He tore up the pavement of metaphysics and morality that the traditionalists, of his time and also of the men like Guenon and Evola later, all walked on. His philosophy apparently fell on deaf ears in their case, if they really read him at all. And as for their Eastern occult influences, it's really just a mask to compensate the fact that they can no longer withstand the ever-increasing challenge of grasping the culture within which they live; nothing, absolutely nothing they dug up from the East is relevant today, or even original / not to be found in the Greeks and Nietzsche already, and in a far superior (read: non-mystical) form.

It would really do you some good to read the man and not just pretend that you have.

>> No.12711679

>>12711636
are you that one jewish poster who thinks he's an alpha aryan warrior or whatever generally obsessed with aryans

>> No.12711696

>>12711679
No, not familiar with that poster either.

>> No.12711698

>>12711696
he posted in one of the old trad threads, he was obsessed with nietzsche and "vitalism" so i thought it was you

>> No.12711705

>>12711636
>nothing they dug up from the East is relevant today, or original/not to be found in the Greeks and Nietzche already and in a far superior form
This is a very large claim, so you'll need to be more specific. Which doctrines, exactly, does this clause include?

>> No.12711714

>>12711636
>He tore up the pavement of metaphysics and morality ... of the men like Guenon and Evola later,
No he didn't you clown, he was not at all familiar with the metaphysical teachings that they studied and wrote about but only had a distorted understanding of Buddhism from reading what Schopenhaur wrote about it, the only Hindu text he ever read was a bad translation of the Manusmriti which is basically a law-code, he had no idea about any of the stuff the Traditionalist views a proper metaphysics. What they regard as proper morality is derived from those sorts of metaphysics and not standard western morality, and even in that case many of them viewed morality as a secondary concern.
You are just reinforcing my point, you have fetishized Nietzsche so much that you are making the silly mistake of thinking that because he made a bunch of rhetorical attacks against western and Greek metaphysics that he somehow btfo stuff he didn't know about on the other side of the world that was mostly unrelated to anything he had ever learned about. Of course Nietszche was the product of his time, most of his work is just him trying to attack and set himself apart from the ideas of his time and those preceding him.
>And as for their Eastern occult influences,
That's literally an incorrect usage of the word occult, aside from Evola none of them really focused on the occult, most eastern doctrines have little to do with it.
>it's really just a mask to compensate the fact that they can no longer withstand the ever-increasing challenge of grasping the culture within which they live
Here you are making the mistake of thinking that there is some fundamental and inherent value to modernity/modern culture when in actuality this couldn't be further from the truth. None of the Traditionalists couldn't withstand it, few of them actually left western culture to live permanently in the east. Coomaraswamy agreed with everything Guenon said and held a prominent position at a major Boston art museum, many others lived in the west and contributed to many journals and published many books; none of them had any troubles making a living for themselves in modernity/the west.
>absolutely nothing they dug up from the East is relevant today,
to the contrary they deal with timeless principles which eternally remain relevant
>or even original / not to be found in the Greeks and Nietzsche already, and in a far superior (read: non-mystical) form.
You have that backwards kiddo, many of the ideas of Plato and the pre-socratics were preempted hundreds of years earlier by the pre-Buddhist Upanishads and the Vedas

>> No.12711718

>>12711104
evolas essays

>> No.12711723

>>12711537
>The superiority of past classical music could be demonstrated as being superior in multiple ways objectively.

Big claim, prove it.

>> No.12711724

>>12711714
>and even in that case many of them viewed morality as a secondary concern.
that's putting it lightly. Guenon outright dismisses morality as a degeneration, and upholds the ritual point of view as categorically superior.

>> No.12711726

>>12711408
Nietzsche is a pre-requisite to getting into traditionalism
Traditionalism makes Nietzsche obsolete

>> No.12711727

>>12711698
I'd probably disagree with him on a number of things as Jews tend to like the "progressive" aspect of Nietzsche out of an impulse to rebel rather than out of the impetus of power. Nietzsche was not a Godless deconstructionist as is commonly perceived.

>> No.12711734

>eternal truths

Prove that they're eternal, and prove that they're true.

>> No.12711738

>>12711714
>to the contrary they deal with timeless principles which eternally remain relevant

Not him, what principles?

>> No.12711747

>>12711734
They pop up in multiple ancient cultures across the glove eith absolutley zero contact with each other, therefore they are eternal values, and therefore they are true

>> No.12711750

>>12711726
In what way?

>> No.12711755

>>12711747
That doesn't prove them eternal or true. Just that human brains in a material reality will come upon similar ideas. Try again.

>> No.12711774
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12711774

>>12711738

>> No.12711775

>>12711714
Nietzsche was aware of the Vedas and said in them was a precursor to his philosophy. Also, whatever was important from them, carried on into the Greeks, who did philosophy, art, and sociology way better. His dismantling of metaphysics handed down by the Greeks is a dismantling of metaphysics, full stop, the entire enterprise. Your Traditionalism is not exempt from that.

>> No.12711824

>>12711775
>Nietzsche was aware of the Vedas
Aware =/= reading, Nietzsche never actually read the Vedas, nor the Upanishads, which means he was not in the least qualified to offer his opinion on their metaphysics or anything else that they taught. Nietzsche at times heaped effusive praise on Islam, Buddhism and on various Hindu-related things in his writings, despite never reading anything from them other than like 1 text and what Schopenhauer and some other Germans wrote about them.
>Also, whatever was important from them, carried on into the Greek
That's bullshit though, there may have been one or two cases of select Greeks traveling east and returning with some ideas but many major Indian/Hindu ideas remained unknown in Greek and subsequently western thought. Most of it was totally unknown to the west until the age of exploration when texts began to be brought back and translated in the 17th and 18th centuries.
>who did philosophy, art, and sociology way better.
an unsubstantiated as well as an unfalsifiable statement
>His dismantling of metaphysics handed down by the Greeks is a dismantling of metaphysics, full stop, the entire enterprise.
lmao are you really so stupid as to think that all of the metaphysics that humans have thought of or recognized are somehow encapsulated or contained in Greek thought? Or that judgements made about Greek thought are in any way relevant to the thought of totally unrelated cultures?This is becoming like some sort of parody or super-advanced trolling. There are a vast array of ideas in Indian, Tibetan and Chinese/Japanese thought (and to a lesser extent Islamic) that the Greeks didn't get anywhere near to realizing or even suspecting.

>> No.12711837

>>12711824
>There are a vast array of ideas in Indian, Tibetan and Chinese/Japanese thought (and to a lesser extent Islamic) that the Greeks didn't get anywhere near to realizing or even suspecting.
Name just one.

>> No.12711849

>>12711824
Not him, but the tactic you're taking here weakens your position. Either their metaphysics are based on the same universal ideas, meaning Nietzsche's attack on the metaphysics of the west would apply to them equally, or they're fundamentally different and thus not based on universal truths.

>> No.12711866

>>12706023
It's a material world, kissless incel.

>> No.12711888

>>12711009
Nice bait

>> No.12711922

>>12711866
>kissless incel.
Marxists are more likely to have issues with women, and when they do get women they're usually grungy dirty greasy whores

>> No.12712004

>>12708206
>but you can't really sample Heidegger's critiques of society

Are there books written about Heideggers critiques society by Heidegger or others?

>> No.12712362

>>12706231
Fuck off dumb cunt

>> No.12712649

>>12711755
>theyre not true
>theyre just considered true by all humans regardless of time or space
Ok retard
Define your version of truth for me

>> No.12712686

>>12711849
Universality does not imply the equal capacity of all people to recognize them at all times and places, just because someone claims to be refuting or discussing metaphyscis doesn't in any way guarantee they are talking about these same principles.

>> No.12712713

>>12711408
I like both. The only Nietzsche I haven't read is the Birth of Tragedy, Zarathustra and The Will to Power.

>> No.12712728

>>12711100
I'm not a traditionalist and I don't know what it would mean to be one. I do, however, take light from some of Guenon's and Evola's criticisms and insights. I am a person who likes to read, among other things. Part of that is that I believe any one who does not find the current order to be fucked up, gay and retarded is missing a big piece of the puzzle.

>> No.12712827

>>12711837
Ajātivāda, rangtong, shentong, wu wei, ziran, dharmakāya, al-wujūd-al-munbasiṭ, 'fanāʾ fi-llāh, barzakh, kārya-kāraṇa ananyatva, trekchö, Indra's net, sāmānādhikaraṇya, kośas, ahampratyavamarsha, svasaṃvedana and tashkīk al-wujūd

>> No.12713039

>>12711537
>The superiority of past classical music could be demonstrated as being superior in multiple ways objectively.
lol. I see you have no taste, no proper sensibility, no way of categorizing meaning outside the miserable framework of "canon". Sheep, indeed.

>Borges has no universal truths in his work because he is agnostic
That's one of the most poorly written piece of criticism I've ever read. No wonder you need to appeal to this pre-made axiologies of meaning: you have no intuition!
There are infinite ways an artists can be good without resourcing to "universal truths". To clearly speak this "universal truths" is not the goal of art, one of the reasons for this being that "universal truths" can't be clearly spoke, as any juvenile esoteric knows.

>A miracle is a divine action. Technology is a man-made materialist tool
There is no such thing as a "man-made tool" is the grand order of things. Every object is hybrid, and every phenomenon is God-willed.

>> No.12713082

>>12712728
>Part of that is that I believe any one who does not find the current order to be fucked up, gay and retarded is missing a big piece of the puzzle.
Well, it is bad, it is fucked up. But it is also a time of revelation. That's what the apocalypse is all about. It's an implosion of everything we hold dear, but it is also the reapparition of bliss, through cracks and deviations in the mesh of life itself.

Look around and if you have a good set of eyes, you will see that meaning is so dense right now that you could scoop it with a spoon. And now you ride the fucking tiger, would you.

>> No.12713083
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12713083

This thread, just like Traditionalism, is dying - and there is NOTHING you can do about it

If you start a new one from scratch it will be a different, rehashed version of itself, thus proving that tradition is inherently self-restructuring and evolving, a fluid entity which begets the concept of modernity

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