/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.12593382]

>>Tolkien is the wen on the arse of fantasy literature. His oeuvre is massive and contagious - you can't ignore it, so don't even try. The best you can do is consciously try to lance the boil. And there's a lot to dislike - his cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity. Tolkien's clichés - elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings - have spread like viruses. He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.

Damn...

[Anonymous No.12593401]

>Rewrites Moby Dick

[Anonymous No.12593407]

what a self righteous pompous douche. glad I never brothered with him. what is the point of this? that Tolkien is old, white and not woke enough? that he's too successful at emulating the european epic cycles he's obviously inspired by - very white, very male, very much lacking in "nuance"? that he dared to hope that his fantasy would be escapist consolation instead of gritty politics in a world recently ravaged by two fucking world wars?

fuck this cheap ass grant morrison knockoff. what a cheap shot.

[Anonymous No.12593476]

>>12593382
What the fuck kind of a name is China

[Anonymous No.12593485]

Mieville and Moorecock both lose their minds when confronted with Tolkien, like the citizens of Lovecraft do when confronted with an Elder God. It's as if Tolkien is so utterly beyond them that they have no reaction to him but to go mad.

[Anonymous No.12593500]

>>12593382

I've always thought that it was very stupid for such a masculine looking white man to take on such a self-defeating interest in leftist politics and aesthetics. He just has to allow himself that one affectation—the ugly earrings on an otherwise attractive face—to remind us all of what he is.

[Anonymous No.12593502]

>>12593407
100% ,and nice point about the world wars

[Anonymous No.12593508]

>>12593382
>Tolkien's clichés - elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings - have spread like viruses
This is the only accurate observation.

[Anonymous No.12593512]

>>12593382
>he became a Marxist at university
dropped

[Anonymous No.12593529]

>never heard of this guy before
>tfw reading his bio on Wikipedia
Why would I ever care what thus guy would say? He is like the Henry Rollins of literature

[Anonymous No.12593533]

>>12593476
Im guessing you've never been arounf leftists before.

[Anonymous No.12593535]

China Mieville is educated. He's little more than a Twittercore novelist who got lost in the vidya aisle but still probably has his regulation Argonauts shoved up his ass. If he wasn't so pretentious he'd probably devote all his energy to praising House of Leaves.

Tolkien was a philologist, a poet, a man who'd seen war and chose to write stories about hope and determination. Mieville is a pouty schoolboy that can't manage that little thing called transcendence that literature is built on. Go get another piercing you useless tool.

[Anonymous No.12593549]

>tfw no fuckboy china bf

[Anonymous No.12593550]

>>12593533
Actually, no, I haven't, specially not Anglo ones. Do they really give themselves these stupid fucking names? What's up with that?

[Anonymous No.12593576]

>>12593535
did someone badmouth your daddy surrogate? that's too bad. maybe you can tell your son a story about it someday

[Anonymous No.12593593]

>>12593550
Grew up in a leftist university town of about 50,000 people my man. "China" isn't the worst you'll hear. Sometimes you get a "Sage" or "Winter" or "Ocean". It's all a byproduct of their education and the entire phenomenon of modern liberal arts. It teaches them the importance of self expression while failing to teach them self awareness, leading to increasingly absurd behaviors. They're typically xenophiles, hedonists, and consumerists. The names they give usually represent some kind of sign of belonging to this culture, similar to how hardcore Christians or Muslims will name children after religious figures except instead of the name of apostles it's just words they find foreign and descriptive.

[Anonymous No.12593647]

>>12593593
Damn, what a ride

[Anonymous No.12593656]

>>12593476
An überfaggot name. Sounds like a stripper name lmao

[Anonymous No.12593676]

>>12593476
This. Why China? Why not Australia or Britannia or whatever fuckhole this cunt crawled out from?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12593722]

>>12593535
>Mieville hasn’t seen any dead bodies
He’s not wrong, he’s just a little too upset over it all. Or comes off that way
I have fun with fantasy, but it’s true, the bulk of it is escapism for the reactionary fools who want the return of the past. Taken as light entertainments, they’re fine, classic in Tolkien’s case

[Anonymous No.12593751]

>>12593722
Oh yes, because self sacrifice and honor are just sentiments of escapism for reactionary (ugh) tools. Tripfags need to be murdered, but leftist tripfags needs to publicly murdered.

[Anonymous No.12593754]

Can you imagine what Tolkien would think if he were still alive to see all the modern trash fantasy he inspired?

[Anonymous No.12593767]

>>12593382
The John Green pasta bit it says China Mieville

[Anonymous No.12593773]

>>12593382
The John Green rape pasta but it says China Mieville instead.

[Anonymous No.12593775]

>>12593754
He'd probably be a sedevacantist by now, considering his thoughts on Vatican Council 2: autism boogaloo. He refused to speak mass in English and would scream out all responses in Latin for the whole event after three second vatican council.

[Anonymous No.12593799]

>>12593593
I sometimes wonder if they will go way overboard someday and name their kids similar to the old puritan names.

>Praise-God
>Fear-The-Lord
>Job-raked-out-of-the-ashes
>Joy-in-sorrow
>Die-Well
>If-Christ-had-not-died-for-thee-thou-hadst-been-damned

But with weird progressive dogma like...

>Born-this-way
>I-love-progress
>Everyone-is-equal
>Gender-is-a-social-construct

I actually think - contrary to your view - that names are one area the leftists/progressives haven't yet tried to seriously subvert. Many people still just have children they blindly give biblical names and no one bats an eyelid. Maybe this indicates they are really just doing it for selfish reasons, rather than serious ideological ones. If they were serious, they would name their children way weirder shit.

[Anonymous No.12593803]

>>12593751
based
and redpilled

[Anonymous No.12594415]

>>12593382
this guy looks like he's descended from Uruk-hai.
no wonder he doesn't like Tolkien

[Anonymous No.12594417]

>>12593799
I thought those puritan names were inspired by the natives? Also im pretty sure there are some leftist children with name like "Swimming-Sparrow" or "Long-Horse"

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12594477]

>>12593751
I was thinking more about the hierarchy and pseudo-Christian overtones, you sniveling child.

Taken to extremes, the way reactionary rightists, it’s not healthy. And believe me, I’m no stranger to bouts of nostalgia

[Anonymous No.12594499]

>>12593401
>Its about giant fucking naked mole rats
truly genre fiction in essence

[Anonymous No.12594503]

>>12594477
>Hierarchy is bad you reactionary child
>LOTR is pseudo-Christian
Like I said, tripfags need to be murdered.

[Anonymous No.12594538]

>>12593407
>epic cycles
>lacking in nuance
You belong in the outer dark, with him.

I don't understand his point at all though. My understanding is that Tolkien invented the genre more or less. A condemnation of him is a (perfectly justifiable) condemnation of the gene.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12594547]

>>12594503
Unjustifiable hierarchies are quite bad.
Choke to death

[Anonymous No.12594553]

>>12594547
Justify our current hierarchy

[Anonymous No.12594554]

>>12593382
tl;dr "I am a Communist and Tolkien offends these sensibilities because there are like, hierarchies and stuff... and that's a Bad Thing".

[Anonymous No.12594561]

>>12594554
Nobody asked for a tl;dr you useless fag.

[Anonymous No.12594569]

>>12594561
t. butthurt Communist

[Anonymous No.12594582]

>>12593799
I have a pretty peculiar name and I think it has done nothing but help me. Gives me an extra edge when it comes to being noticed/remembered. It’s not faggy bullshit though so maybe I could have been worse

[Anonymous No.12594603]

>>12593382
Sounds like your incapable of enjoying a good story.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12594608]

>>12594553
I am a lowly working class loser. There's nothing to justify.

[Anonymous No.12594612]

>>12593382
What fantasy tales do you enjoy?

[Anonymous No.12594617]

>>12593382
who had bigger arms tho?

[Anonymous No.12594622]

I asked this on /tv/ but haven't gotten an answer.

What are some other criticisms of Disney like Tolkien's?
>Dwarfs ought to be ugly of course, but not in that way. And the dwarfs’ jazz party was pretty bad. I suppose it never occurred to the poor boob that you could give them any other kind of music. But all the terrifying bits were good, and the animals really most moving: and the use of shadows (of dwarfs and vultures) was real genius. What might not have come of it if this man had been educated–or even brought up in a decent society?

[Anonymous No.12594628]

>>12594547
Except there are justifiable and unjustifiable hierarchies in the LOTR? You really don't understand the point of Mordor do you?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12594643]

>>12594628
I said I enjoy them and pointed out that Mieville is just being a wet blanket with his Marxist critique.

The justification for the King is the typical monarchist drivel, but I can suspend disbelief long enough to enjoy a good yarn. In the end I do come back to the real world and wish for a more Le Guin like future.

[Anonymous No.12594674]

>>12593382
Gee whiz, how provocative.

[Anonymous No.12594678]

>>12593676
Cockney rhyming slang

[Anonymous No.12594682]

>>12594553
Hierarchies are mental traps that wealthy people cling to to feel important and poor people cling to to justify why they never try in life.

[Anonymous No.12594698]

>>12593382
>Tolkien
>glorifying war
>Tolkien glorifies war
There's no way around how UNBELIEVABLY daft this statement is.
>>12593485
Except Moorcock is also an insane, monster of a writer and can back up whatever the fuck he says about other Fantasy writers.

[Anonymous No.12594706]

>>12593529
Please don't lower Hank to this guys level.

[Anonymous No.12594716]

>>12593593
This is dead on as far as small hippy college towns. I don't so much agree that Winter is all that crazy or that Sage is more than just slightly obnoxious. You sound like you're from fucking Arcata.

[Anonymous No.12594736]

>>12594698
The thing I have about Moorcock is that he keeps being an asshole about my favorite writers. I have not read him, and one of the reasons I refrain from reading him is that he hates Tolkien and he also hates Robert E. Howard. And I've read his commentary on both of them, and he repeatedly makes it clear that he doesn't understand or appreciate what Howard or Tolkien are genuinely about. The impression I get of Moorcock based on his criticisms of both of these writers are that he's either a moron or he's deliberately dishonest. With this in mind, I feel no inclination to read his own works. Why should I truck with fools?

[Anonymous No.12594768]

>>12594736
Moorcock is literally the far end opposite of Tolkien. Both are my favorite writers, but neither of them could exist in the same universe. They'd both despise each other if they knew each other.

[Anonymous No.12594779]

>>12594643
>The justification for the King is the typical monarchist drivel
You mean a democratic justification for monarchy where men follow their king out of their own personal desire and morality of their ruler? I hope not, because that would definitely not be a typical defense of monarchy. It's not a justification for monarchy, the way monarchism works in this world is meant to be representative of any authority. The reason why a lineage like Gondor's or Rohan's is followed or not ultimately comes down to the will of the people to choose their rulers, it is never decreed to them by the God of the LOTR's world. The ultimate good the main characters serve is actually fairly egalitarian in nature as well, and then follow their Kings into battle on behalf of these egalitarian sentiments. What are they fighting for? The freedom of Middle Earth from an autocratic sadist who will force them into slavery and death if they oppose him. That's not the same as saying you fight on God's behalf for your king or nobleman.

Maybe you ought to re-read it m8

[Anonymous No.12594780]

>>12594768
That's the whole thing; every time I read Moorcock's commentary on Tolkien it seems to come from a position of loathing. It feels repeatedly like Moorcock just fucking despises Tolkien's base position, and so from that flows a deliberate effort to misinterpret and misrepresent what Tolkien is really getting at in his Middle-Earth works. It's a lack of charity on Moorcock's part, which is the thing that really makes me mad about him. Especially because, your post notwithstanding, I can't help but feel that Tolkien would be kinder to Moorcock than Moorcock is to him. Tolkien strikes me as a really generous, dispassionate analyst of the works of others. He was an Oxford professor, after all.

[Anonymous No.12594789]

>>12594477
>>12594547
I like how obvious it is when you're butthurt.

[Anonymous No.12595139]

Tolkien is a hack everywhere outside genreshit. Who gives a fuck and fuck those shilling them.

[Anonymous No.12595236]

>>12594768
>>12594780
Fun fact, Moorcock and Tolkien did know each other, and Moorcock has actually stated many times that they actually got along great. He just doesnt like Tolkien's works. Though he has used Lord of the Rings as a complimentary comparison point when praising the world-building of books like Left Hand of Darkness.

[Anonymous No.12595286]

>>12595236
>He just doesnt like Tolkien's works
Who legitimately believes this? when Moorcock finally dies they'll find a fucking shrine dedicated to him in his basement, many of his earlier works stuff have the exact same "morality" problems as Tolkien.

The guy desperately wants to be the Anti-Tolkein but anybody whose read any pulp knows that's Howard.

[Anonymous No.12595432]

>>12593535

>you haven't suffured enough to ascend and you never will

[Anonymous No.12595483]

>>12595139
yikes and cringe
Tolkien is clearly a significant literary figure. It actually speaks to the insecurity of authors who want to bash him to seem like they are more serious and politically engaged.

China Mieville is a typical leftist in this respect. Wants to make his work more than consolation, doesn't want to give the reader payoff or comfort, thinks his revolutionary drivel and progressive morals is insightful and bold and challenging rather than tedious and predictable and failed.

[Anonymous No.12595606]

>>12594547
But the existence of one is preferable to a lack thereof. Humans left to their own devices will always form Hierarchies, it is in our nature. That is not to say they aren't unable to be scrutinised when necessary.

[Anonymous No.12595634]

Everyone is entitled to his opinion so that's ok.
But on the other hand China also wrote Perdido Street Station, one of the worst reading experiences I had in the last few years.
So whatever that faggot keeps saying about Tolkien or any topic is completely irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.12595676]

>>12593382
>He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation'
Wow that's such an inaccurate simplification. Makes me think he read a quote in an article somewhere and never read Tolkien's actual essays. This guy has an axe to grind.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12596039]

>>12594789
People say kys to me all the time. I just hurl a new one at them for the fun of it.

>>12595606
Unjustifiable hierarchies are not preferable in the least, hence my categorizing them thus. We can and should whittle them down to only the necessary parent/child, teacher/student, and expert/novice hierarchies as soon as possible.
No one is allowed to properly scrutinize in this fools world. That's why capitalism must go.

[Anonymous No.12596068]

>>12596039
>necessary parent/child
Not necessary at all. Didn't know you were doing fascist apologetics now.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12596097]

>>12596068
When kids come out like Pippi, parents will be glad to send them on their way

[Anonymous No.12596178]

>>12596039
>Unjustifiable hierarchies are not preferable in the least
>No one is allowed to properly scrutinize in this fools world.
Utterly spooked, still striving for "freedom" instead of property and power.
Communism/socialism doesnt satisfy uniqueness.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1095789712642633728

[Anonymous No.12596613]

>Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisoned by the enemy, don’t we consider it his duty to escape? The moneylenders, the knownothings, the authoritarians have us all in prison; if we value the freedom of the mind and soul, if we’re partisans of liberty, then it’s our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can.

[Anonymous No.12596955]

tolkien: skinny s*yboy arms

china: massive arms

[Anonymous No.12596984]

>>12594538

He was stating the opinion of the cunt in op's post, you tard

[Anonymous No.12596999]

>>12593593
But isn't that the point of names ? Like how Arthur originally meant bear, and richard meant great leader or something. I agree it sounds cringy but you've got to look past that and understand that traditional names are also cringe, we just forgot what they meant over time.

t. a guy literally named "His name is God"

[Anonymous No.12597049]

>>12593382
>his boys-own-adventure glorying in war
Hasn't even read the books.

[Anonymous No.12597081]

>>12595139
Tolkien was also a very competent linguist m8. Almost singlehandedly made Beowulf a aprt of the canon.

[Anonymous No.12597091]

>>12596097
Children can be communaly raised. Down with the patriarchal structure of the nuclear family.

[Anonymous No.12597109]

>>12596999
>But isn't that the point of names ?
No , the point of names is to identify people. Sometimes names are developed overtime through character descriptions, yes, like Wilhelm coming from a German phrase that literally means "willful helmet", but, then there are also other possible reasons. You brought up Anglo names, did you know that the reason why many are named Smith, Miller, or Baker is because under the feudal system people were named over their occupations? So there are many different ways a name might develop. Whats strange about these liberal names is that they're made up on the spot and don't hold true cultural significance , there isn't any etymology they just came up with names on the spot.
>My favorites season is winter so I'm naming my kid winter
>I like the smell of this spice, so I'm naming them Sage.

[Anonymous No.12597117]

Why do we even have names?

[Anonymous No.12597138]

>>12593382
This is hilarious, because Mieville is a fucking terrible author who can't resist shoehorning communism and bug sex into everything he writes.

[Anonymous No.12597188]

>>12593382

Is that the League of Legends streamer?

[Anonymous No.12597295]

>>12594768
Rec your favorite moorcock books? I'm interested

[Anonymous No.12597307]

>>12597295
White-Haired Antihero Fights A Wizard Part IV was the highlight for me.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12597401]

>>12596178
>claiming de-spookin is spooked.
Your perceptions of socialism are askew. Bu then many people’s are. Freedom does, or could indeed satisfy the Unique, as that was the intention of the book and the young Hegelians

>>12597091
I like the idea of the extended family helping.

[Anonymous No.12597465]

>>12593382
based and a great author

[Anonymous No.12597531]

>>12597401
>Freedom does, or could indeed satisfy the Unique, as that was the intention of the book and the young Hegelians
Freedom only satisfies the unique when you are gaining power and uniqueness from achiving that sayed freedom. Stirner also specifies this very clearly when critising socialism and communism and even explains why he doesnt really want to be "free" from everything or else all that would be left was emptiness.
>Your perceptions of socialism are askew.
That was supposed to be a cheap shitpost, but i love how every socialists responce to critique is "b-bruh you dont understand socialism" even for me, being a bit left leaning.
>I like the idea of the extended family helping.
If you knew anything about parenting and how human instincts are you would see just how not healthy that is for the developing infants. Even most socialists understand that implementing this "social socialism" into the concepts of family and such isnt gonna work.

[Anonymous No.12597597]

>>12597307
>>12597295
What about Behold the Man? That was some interesting fedora tipping historical-sci-fi-fantasy.

[Anonymous No.12597603]

>>12593382
>one shot at life
>your parents name you "China"

[Anonymous No.12597638]

>>12594789
>>12593751
fucking based, that faggot needs to die.

[Anonymous No.12597703]

>>12597638
I normally dont have an agenda agaisnt tripfags for existing, but this one likes to go to literal beyond-retard from day to day when it comes to pushing socialism and applying it to social standards or anything else aside from economical standards. Its obvious that she doesnt know shit about human condition and even mixes stirner and left leaning politics as if they are related.
I feel like she wants to advocate for some "Brave New World" tier Utopia/Distopia without even realising its impossible for it to work with living beings.

[Anonymous No.12598080]

>>12597703
I don't block tripcodes since I don't think it's worth the effort. But, their posts in this thread were so asinine that I decided I was wrong and I blocked them.

[Anonymous No.12598149]

>>12597638
>Butterfly being a pretencious retard.
Why are you even surprised?

[Anonymous No.12598174]

>>12593407
It's not about that at all and your perception of the world is so misgoverned by the memes on 4chan that it's affecting your view on things that have nothing to do with identity politics or 4chan. Go outside, kid. Not everything is about corrupting the white race, jesus christ.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12598322]

>>12597531
Not necessarily. Freedom is it’s own reward. And no one but suicidals want that absolute freedom
“I was just shit posting” well then, there’s no problem. Now we’re both aware this was just a gag.

I think parents will continue to be the primary caretakers of their children, but there’s no harm in letting grandparents babysit, uncle take their nephews out fishing, and learning trades from some other distant relatives for a few months.
The guy I was responding to was making some Brave New World joke and I thought I’d clarify this

>>12597703
So no, I don’t see Hurley’s world as ideal. And this is a thread about socialism/Marxist criticism

Funny how I disagree with China and I still see all your butts blasted.

[Anonymous No.12598341]

>>12598174
Yeah we're just imagining the constant onslaught of hostility towards white people in every Western country. Simply a 4chan meme

[Anonymous No.12598366]

>>12598149
Why doesn't the filter work on him?

[Anonymous No.12598414]

>>12594682
Except the poor folk had those hierarchies battered into their bones since their earliest years. They grow with and into them, to not break.

[Anonymous No.12598449]

>>12598366
He is a disembodied brain that is so tiny it passes through the pores of the filter. Like water, or pee.

[Anonymous No.12598472]

>>12598322
>I think parents will continue to be the primary caretakers of their children, but there’s no harm in letting grandparents babysit, uncle take their nephews out fishing, and learning trades from some other distant relatives for a few months.
I honestly interpreted it in a diferent more "radical" way since it was about the "dissolution" of the "nuclear family". I honestly think that the "family" concept always included the relations and interaction with all members of the family, thinking of family just as "parents and sons" is a bit retarded imo. My apologies.

>Not necessarily. Freedom is it’s own reward. And no one but suicidals want that absolute freedom
I have to slightly disagree, from my interpretation of the book he makes it clear that freedom is mask that people used to root for to achive some power from their "masters". I think he makes it clear since he even spends more than half of his book demonstrating why the "liberal revolutions" were simply a shift of power to something even more dificult to tackle and how they were also egoists of a sort, but simply got too tied up with the "liberty" spook ideal. He even deliberately says he doesnt strive for freedom in the meaning of "equality for all" but for just his own special power in the face of the whatever society he is in even without commiting to the spooks.

>So no, I don’t see Hurley’s world as ideal.
Not to intervene in that, but i honestly saw you advocating for it, claiming to be Utopia. Whatever.

[Anonymous No.12598642]

>>12598449

[Anonymous No.12598660]

>>12598642
Mindblown.jpg

[Anonymous No.12598677]

>>12594582
well now you have to tell us what it is

[Anonymous No.12598716]

I agree where he say that Tolkien influence is toxic, but his reason for loathing him is juvenile and stupid at best.

And Miéville is one of my favourite writers, though with all of his shortcomings compared to his influences. He's sound when writing his fantasy but he can be silly when voicing his own opinions.

>>12594538
>My understanding is that Tolkien invented the genre more or less

He was only the most influential, and thus everything that came after him just sound like an emulation of the genre. He didn't invent jackshit.

[Anonymous No.12598740]

>>12598716
Tolkien's influence isn't toxic it's just that the fantasy writers who came after him were hacks, they would have been shitty writers whether The Lord of the Rings existed or not

[Anonymous No.12598809]

>>12598740

But it was Tolkien's influence especifically which bore those writers. Both Dunsany and Peake had similar influence on the oncoming generations of writers but these were never as bad as Tolkien's grandchildren.

[Anonymous No.12598851]

there p. much is no such thing as fantasy without tolkein, all of fantasy is basically written as a pastiche or a reaction to him.

[Anonymous No.12598967]

>>12598809
Tolkien"s influence was a byproduct of his brilliance though, surely you recognize this? People who mimicked him did so because of the sheer intellectual weight of his thought and prose quality, you can't blame Tolkien for inspiring the uninitiated into his sphere of influence surely? He was a once in a century kind of man , I find it fitting he inspired generations of writers for good or bad.

[Anonymous No.12598970]

>>12598851
Nonsense, youngfriend. Absolute horseshit what you said there.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12599089]

>>12598472
The egoist sets him/herself free to exercise their power as far as they can. This approach didn’t jive with the early socialists, but anarchism has been reimagined many times, easily grafting Stirner over it. Freedom as I see it doesn’t even mean equality, but he gives a short nod to the union of egoists. This is my brand of libertarian-socialism (though we must acknowledge that not everyone can adjust to this balanced individualism/collectivism. At least so far as I can tell). Stirner May have abandoned the socialists quest, but that doesn’t matter to me. I want it’s success for egotistic ends, namely slowing the climate/ecological disaster

>Hurley
Huxley mmm.
...that was just meme-ing.

[Anonymous No.12599120]

>>12593529
>blocks your reading
https://youtu.be/6pI3ZsNdokQ

[Anonymous No.12599133]

>>12597091

[Anonymous No.12599195]

>>12597295
Sailor on the Seas of Fate and Stormbringer are my favorites, but I wouldn't read the 6-tilogy out of order, particularly the last one. They're quick reads though. Corum too.

>>12597307
I'm partial to White-Haired Antihero Fights A Wizard Part VI

[Anonymous No.12599210]

>>12599133
>Only 1,000 living people have been sexually abused as a child by the priesthood of Pennsylvania
That's really not so bad considering about 13 million people live there. Still, those people will be judged at the end of their lives and deserve such

[Anonymous No.12599361]

>>12598851

[Anonymous No.12599377]

>>12599089
>slowing the climate/ecological disaster
Not the other anon. But why should i care about that to begin with? Im ok with it as long as it doenst give fuck up in my life time.

[Anonymous No.12599389]

>>12593535
Man what's all this Mieville hate? City and the City, and Kraken, were both perfectly good fantasy novels.

[Anonymous No.12599409]

>>12598851
there's pre-Tolkien fantasy though

[Anonymous No.12599435]

>>12599389
He's a red and he gets more pussy than us. That's enough reason.

[Anonymous No.12599447]

>>12599377
>Im ok with it as long as it doenst give fuck up in my life time.
It will unless you're rather old for 4chan.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oEULhtSEDhe No.12599476]

>>12599377
It will fuck with your life. You think people bitch and moan about the world now, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
Yeah, you take your chances with what an egoist does. That’s life. I love life and think it can be made much better for everyone. I’m actually quite cynical about our chances, but I wanna try.

[Anonymous No.12599493]

>>12598967

Tolkien was brilliant in a way that was never mimicked by any of his many imitators. His work was one of a kind, yes, but it wasn't its complexity that was passed through to the next generation, only its lore and obsession with worldbuilding, or else we would have something entirely different from the shitfest most of pseudo-mediaeval fantasy is nowadays. Tolkien himself meant well with his work, sure, but it's undeniable his influence did an equal share of good and bad.

However, I don't think Tolkien is entirely to blame. People disconsider the bad influence of RPGs (with is the fault of pulp writers) when talking about fantasy. It's rare to find a fantasy writer nowadays who doesn't talks about the influence RPGs had in them; even Miéville himself has said so.

[Anonymous No.12599527]

Reminder that China Mievelle is jacked as fuck and would beat the shit out of you

[Anonymous No.12599732]

>>12596039
Would it kill you to just be a fucking anon then? You're literally defeating the purpose of this forum. You pompous cunt.

[Anonymous No.12599741]

>>12599527
>Be me
>/lit/ and /fit/ in a completely unironic way
Veins don't mean shit besides less bf %, in a street fight, you should fear skinny people more because the kinds of people who are skinny but still show insane amounts of aggression are the ones who carry the most weapons and will fight until they end up in a hospital bed.

Anyone can get to kind of body type Mievelle is at, few peoole can get to the mental state of someone like Tolkien. I've studied war, I work as a paramedic when has seen people with their brains splattered against concrete, but the kind of man who can face the trenches of WW1 and remain sane scares me in a way I can't describe.

[Anonymous No.12599745]

>>12599741
>I work as a paramedic when has seen people with their brains splattered against concrete,
*I work as a paramedic who had seen people with their brains splattered against concrete

[Anonymous No.12599750]

>>12599745
wanna try that one again buddy

[Anonymous No.12599755]

>>12599493
One thing I've noticed as I'm rereading The Lord of the Rings is how incredibly sad some parts of it are. We're repeatedly presented with all this neat stuff, but it's basically almost about to be extinguished from the world. The Elves are about to leave Middle-Earth forever. The Ents are nearly gone and can't reproduce. Moria is a ruin. Osgiliath is rubble. Gondor has nearly completely collapsed.

The victory of the forces of the West fixes some things, but not other things, so the ending is very bittersweet and tinged with sadness. This is so utterly, drastically different from most of the fantasy authors that Tolkien has inspired. How often does anything Brandon Sanderson writes have a sense of sadness and loss to it? All these fantasy worlds that are built off of Tolkien's inspiration are worlds in their prime, with no sense of loss or weight of despair to them. That's one of the biggest differences between Tolkien and his imitators to me.

I mean, pic related. Take it from the man himself.

[Anonymous No.12599773]

>>12598322
It's because we don't like you or your stupid goddamned fucking tripcode. At this point I believe it might actually kill you to just blend in and subtly propose your thoughts in a more nonchalant manner that might actually gain traction. Instead you insist on this juvenile attention getting tactic that just turns anons against you. I fucking hate you, again, for like the 50th time.

[Anonymous No.12599774]

>>12599750
It's a complete sentence besides a final period, I really don't care. Especially after thinking about all the things I've seen I couldn't care less about people's regional grammar preferences. "Had" instead of "has", whatever. I might still be a paramedic but I don't often see people have their heads shot off in the street. Had is proper, I pray I don't have to see that again.

[Anonymous No.12599800]

>>12599755
It's actually incredible to me that people say Tolkien inspired a generation of people who expect an infinite amount of good endings through the lotr. Gandalf and Borimir die in the first book after Frodo becomes cursed with a soul destroying spell by a being of pure cruelty who stabs him through the shoulder for resisting. How much more genocide, slavery, incest, and famine does it take to sastify these people? Tolkien's world was horrrific and fallen on so many levels

[Anonymous No.12599864]

>>12599755

Indeed, and unfortunately this kind of sadness is rarely found even in older fantasy works. It's even more ironic that most of those don't even take after Tolkien that much.
Oddly enough, it's easier to find it in fantasy/some scifi manga, even though Japan is arguably the country which suffered most from the RPG influence in fiction. But then it's more of a cultural thing.

[Anonymous No.12599866]

>>12597138
>shoehorning

Not really. Perdido Street station at least is nuanced. The strikers get suppressed, the revolutionary editor gets murdered, and the anarcho-primitivist garuda aren't depicted as moral paragons or anything.

Compare this to say, Heinlein, who is simply disgusting at making his plots one-sided propaganda for whatever meme-ideology he believed in that year, yet nobody really complains because he wasn't a red (for long).

if you can't have alien sex whats the point of even writing sff?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.12599927]

>>12599741
Shhhhh

[Anonymous No.12599954]

>>12599755
The Silmarillion is even sadder, and you also understand why the Elves in the Third Age are as sad as they are.
Very sad.

[Anonymous No.12599967]

>>12599755
fucking this
Tolkien gets flak unfairly because his imitators only took the medieval setting and the fantasy elements, but none of them captured the heart, the tragic element.

>Frodo is so wrecked by suffering he can't truly go back home
i mean, at least he gets a peace of sorts but still

[Anonymous No.12599993]

>>12599967
Bilbo and Frodo were possibly the first beings to die in Valinor since the Kinslaying.
10,000 years or so iirc.
I wonder how the resident Eldar and Ainur took it.

[Anonymous No.12600009]

>>12599493
I don’t think anyone ever got close to Tolkien’s obsession with lore and “world building”.
But yeah, I think that RPGs have a far worse influence on fantasy than Tolkien ever did. A lot of fantasy books today feel more like a D&D game rather than Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.12600018]

>>12600009
People keep telling me to read this series called 'Malazan' something or other.
Turns out it's actually based on a PnP RPG.
No thanks.

[Anonymous No.12600037]

>>12593508
You can’t blame him for people copying something he invented

That’s like a music critic saying the guy who invented drums was unoriginal beause “everyone uses drums now’l

[Anonymous No.12600250]

>>12599866
Haven't read Mieville, so can't speak for his stuff, but I complain about Heinlein's ridiculous level of perversion and simplistic politics in many of his works. Starship Troopers is about the only one I've really enjoyed from him.

[Anonymous No.12600463]

>>12599800
>Gandalf...die in

Oh come on.

[Anonymous No.12600479]

>>12600250

Mieville is really tame with his politics in his fiction, which is surprising since he seems like a pretty radical guy. Anyone who says his works are heavily political just haven't read the guy. Or are delicate sissies.

[Anonymous No.12600482]

>>12600009
>>12600018
It was the Americans who really ruined fantasy

[Anonymous No.12600699]

>>12599927
Reminder to ignore and report all butterfly fag posts

[Anonymous No.12600709]

>>12600699
You're doing God's work.

[Anonymous No.12600731]

>>12593775
based

[Anonymous No.12600826]

>>12594643
>In the end I do come back to the real world and wish for a more Le Guin like future.
well at least the based anglo-judiac military-industrial complex will never let that happen lmfao

[Anonymous No.12600845]

>>12593382
>His parents separated soon after his birth, and he has said that he "never really knew" his father.[3]
lol

[Anonymous No.12601019]

>/lit/pol absolutely seething that a commie would write books
absolutely obsessed, wouldn't even know who this was if he didn't make /pol/ seethe. buying all his books (from independent bookstores of course)

[Anonymous No.12601475]

>>12594547
Indeed, and there are both even in LOTR.
Gondor's hierarchy is based and redpilled though if that's what you were going for.

[Anonymous No.12601483]

>>12594582
Peculiar names can be OK, like my friend Orion because his father was an astronomer.
But China is very strange. Considering his age I assume the parents were maoists.

[Anonymous No.12601497]

>>12601019
where?

[Anonymous No.12601541]

ITT: People failing to realize that the critic is not really about Tolkien when contestualized in his own timeframe, but of people still thinking it's a great piece of writing to this day. There is nothing wrong with escapism, but the level of detachment in LOTR makes it so that it has the same literary value as a shonen manga.

[Anonymous No.12601551]

>>12601541
it's more plausible than anything the Greeks wrote

[Anonymous No.12601562]

>>12596178
did this nigga just link clickhole to support his argument

[Anonymous No.12601570]

>>12599866
I don’t see a problem with it. Even a hint of communism is nastier than heapings of any other ideology.

[Anonymous No.12601572]

>>12601551
It's not only a problem of plausibilty, it's also about what you can take from the text; there are a lot of deep themes to be taken out from the Greeks' works, that can still force you to ask some deep question even if we are centuries apart. On the other hand, very little can be "learned" from LOTR. Wich doesn't mean it's a bad book: just not a literary masterpiece. It's more like a good piece of music. A lot of its merit stem from birthing new tropes, which have been mercilessy copied and stripped of any value, even if Tolkien himself has nothing to do with it. I mean, the moral of the story is literally "Eye man bad".

[Anonymous No.12601580]

>>12601541
Because anything other than commie parable is too detached, right.

[Anonymous No.12601617]

>>12601572
the only thing deep about greek texts is how deep the characters can penetrate each other in the anus

[Anonymous No.12601642]

>>12601580
What did you take out of LOTR then?

[Anonymous No.12601649]

>>12599210
>really not so bad
>not so bad
You ought to have been one of them.

[Anonymous No.12601735]

>>12597307
Corum books are pretty cool, and the two trilogies are pretty different. I actually like Dancers at the End of Time though. Basically 19th century romance time travelling stories.

[Anonymous No.12602010]

>>12600479
libtards triggered by even a HINT of radicalism

[Anonymous No.12602064]

>>12593382
This screenshot from the new metro game looks pretty good.

[Anonymous No.12602091]

>>12593476
>>12593656
>>12593676
>>12597603
It's cockney rhyming slang. China as in china plate. Plate rhymes with mate. His name basically means friend.

[Anonymous No.12602207]

>>12599741
>who can face the trenches of WW1 and remain sane s
you mean Ernst Junger? How does Mieville compare to him ?

[Anonymous No.12602242]

>>12598174
Stop posting

[Anonymous No.12602248]

>>12602091
Are you drunk right now?

[Anonymous No.12602433]

>>12601649
That's a lower incidence than what happens in public schools m8

[Anonymous No.12602509]

>>12599447
Old for 4chan?...But you are quoting a bunch of late middle-aged to elderly guys!

[Anonymous No.12602522]

>>12599993
No they wouldn't - they were granted immortality too because they came with the Valars' Permission....

[Anonymous No.12603877]

>>12597295
Byzantium Endures.

[Anonymous No.12603885]

>>12597295
The City in the Autumn Stars
Mother London
Gloriana

[Anonymous No.12603903]

>>12596613
Did you know that Sam used Knorr stockpot for his PO-TA-TOE stew?

[Anonymous No.12603987]

>>12593382
Motherfucker just writes up the tabletop roleplaying games he dm-ed for. Mieville is what happens when you dedicate too much time to the plot of your furry steampunk campaign (that you world-built yourself), and when your players manage to stop jerking off long enough to roll some dice, some of their cum-addled compliments on the "emotional depth" and "visceral realism" of your world/characters comes through when all you wanted to do was write about how sexy bugs are, while simultaneously kink-shaming those naughty naughty rapist pigeons.

[Anonymous No.12604482]

>>12600009

Yeah, because none of them are as earnest as Tolkien, they are just emulating what they think medieval fantasy (and others) should be about. This notion is so toxic that even writers who don't really like Tolkien, like J. K. Rowling, are taken by it (though a lot of it is the fandom's fault).

You could say this wasn't just Tolkien's fault, but was there really this level of preoccupation with tidy and expanding worldbuilding before him? The only one I can think of is Lovecraft, and even him wasn't that worried about it. And iirc, the non-Howard Conan stories only took off in the 60s as well.

>>12601541

Then that just make his criticism even dumber.

[Anonymous No.12604523]

>>12604482
>was there really this level of preoccupation with tidy and expanding worldbuilding before him?

The only things that compares are actually sprawling realists epics, like Balzac Human Comedy or Zola's Rogon-Macquart saga.

[Anonymous No.12604542]

My only gripe with Tolkien is that he didn't allow the Beatles to create a psychedelic adaptation of LOTR, and hated their indescribable music, while they practiced down the street.
But that is just an old man being old.

[Anonymous No.12604560]

According to his grandson Simon Tolkien, Tolkien in the last years of his life was disappointed by some of the liturgical reforms and changes implemented after the Second Vatican Council:
>I vividly remember going to church with him in Bournemouth. He was a devout Roman Catholic and it was soon after the Church had changed the liturgy from Latin to English. My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right.

[Anonymous No.12604568]

>>12604560
pretty much every catholic of his generation hated that change

[Anonymous No.12604649]

>>12604560
>My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating
Sounds like torture.

[Anonymous No.12604708]

>>12598174
>Says the term "reactionary" in quote
>not identity politics

[Anonymous No.12604889]

>>12604523

Disconsider the epic scale. I'm not talking about the scope but the obsession with expanding an universe itself, especially in genre fiction. Tolkien may take it from the epic tradition, but the genre takes it as a washed down version of Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.12605217]

>>12594503

I have also called for that thing's actual killing and death on this board more than once. It pleases me to know that others are doing the same.

[Anonymous No.12605804]

>>12604708
That term has quite a few meanings not related to Identity Politics.

[Anonymous No.12607007]

>>12593382
>his boys-own-adventure glorying in war,

How do you come to this conclusion when his work shows that war is fucking awful? Is this guy mentally retard- ''Socialist activist''. Oh of course.

[Anonymous No.12608477]

>>12604560
>"My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right."

Was it autism?

[Anonymous No.12609193]

Whats the best way to listen to lord of the rings? The Rob ingles classic version, the BBC radio drama version or the unofficial kind of drama version of Phil dragash?

Posted this on another thread but seems vaguely relavent

[Anonymous No.12609656]

>OP
Hates Tolkien, probably thinks Dostoevsky is the godhead.
Must be a faculty of education tumour.

[Anonymous No.12609673]

>>12599993
>>12602522
Both of you are wrong, though one less than the other. The hobbits were not granted immortality and also were not admitted onto the mainland of Valinor; they were allowed a time on Tol Eressea for the rest of their normal lifespans. They would die after that.