So, does meditation really work? Every single esoteric book I've read mentions it, but scientifically speaking there are a lot of unanswered questions. Also, if I want to start meditating, what books should I read that are not the usual new age esoterica non sense?

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Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:18:06 2019 No.12437707 [Reply] [Original]

So, does meditation really work? Every single esoteric book I've read mentions it, but scientifically speaking there are a lot of unanswered questions.

Also, if I want to start meditating, what books should I read that are not the usual new age esoterica non sense?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:20:54 2019 No.12437714 >>12437707 >scientifically speaking there are a lot of unanswered questions Elaborate.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:21:13 2019 No.12437716 It does for me, I use it to explore ideas, simulate being a different person and recenter myself from whatever bullshit I was just submerged in. You could see if you get ego-death from smoking weed or doing LSD as a start.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:23:30 2019 No.12437726 >>12437714 Let me rephrase that, is science on board with meditation or they just dismiss it as quackery? I'm really curious but I haven't read enough about this topic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:24:52 2019 No.12437737 >>12437716 How do you do it? Any readings? Any advice?

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:28:01 2019 No.12437759

>>12437726
>is science on board with meditation
What do you mean by this? "Science" and "meditation" are rather broad categories.

There is an increase in research interest in MBCT at the moment and several studies, including meta-analyses suggest it can be effective in treating depression.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:33:04 2019 No.12437782 Yes, learning how to silence the mind has profound benefits for your mental health.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 11:36:15 2019 No.12437802 >>12437759 That's great. Again, I'm just beginning to delve into this topic. >>12437782 Any readings you might suggest?

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 12:18:38 2019 No.12437970

Don't read any books on meditation. They all operate under their own superstitions and beliefs (even the 'secular' and 'scientific' books). You'll only fill your mind with nonsense. Actual meditation instructions can be given in paragraph, you'll figure the rest out on your own.
There's no sense in preemptively subjugating yourself to a specific framework of what meditation should be.

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 12:37:58 2019 No.12438050
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This is the definitive book on meditation. It shows you how to do it effectively in a few different ways, the stages of development you'll go through as you become better at practicing, and it talks a bit about what's going on in your brain among other things.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 12:40:43 2019 No.12438065 >>12437970 t. future hungry ghost

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 13:33:46 2019 No.12438274 >>12437802 Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Atkin. Very simple and straight forward instructions. Posture is really the most important aspect. Even if you don't follow the Zen stuff, the basics on how to sit are presented well for beginners.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 13:38:56 2019 No.12438293 Read Introduction to Magic by Julius Evola and the UR group, then read A symphony of the Mind. Or read them concurrently. It’s two perspectives of similar phenomena, one esoteric, one scientific.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 13:43:25 2019 No.12438303 >>12437707 Who cares what science says, they'll say whatever they're paid to say by the people who give them grants. Just give it a shot, and if meditation works for you, then do it

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 13:46:52 2019 No.12438327 >>12437707 >but scientifically speaking there are a lot of unanswered questions. science is literally unable to say anything about subjective experience by design

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 13:56:04 2019 No.12438367 >>12437707 >So, does meditation really work? Yes but it's not by any means the only method taught by eastern doctrines of reaching peaceful/blissful states of consciousness

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 13:57:49 2019 No.12438373

Someone at my office been talking about meditation for more than a year. Could been the past 3 years. I lost track. He's still an irrational dickhead like I remember when I met him.

Talked to his girl one day and she asked me if he treats people that way at work. Supposedly he's a dick to his girl too.

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:07:03 2019 No.12438410

>>12437707
>but scientifically speaking there are a lot of unanswered questions.
Yes, because it isn't that easy to investigate. There are articles about effect of mindfulness based techniques like MBCT but not much about deeper meditative states, because there aren't many people putting effort into meditation willing to participate in research, effects of meditation can vary wildly especially if we deal with different techniques, most effects are in mind only, investigating things like enlightenment would require probably 10 years of research to assess mind both before and after enlightenment etc.
>>12437726
Science haven't really investigated the idea yet. We don't know how brain works even in normal non-meditative state. There is also problem of meditaion not being that attractive to medicine. No therapeutist nor patient would want to hear that profound benefits appear year after daily 1 hour effort and that their personality my change. People want pills that they can just swallow.
>>12437737
This
>>12438050
is the most clear and complete handbook of meditation with clear instructions and language. It describes and explains experiences up to highest stages of concentration and partially insight too.
>>12438327
Subjective experiences follow certain patterns and they can be reported either verbally or through behavior, or can be correlated to other measurements like fMRI.
>>12438373
Many people talk a lot and do little or give up too early. Questionable conduct is big obstacle in meditation too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:26:22 2019 No.12438490 >>12438410 >Subjective experiences follow certain patterns and they can be reported either verbally or through behavior, or can be correlated to other measurements like fMRI. psychology is not science if you've been paying attention

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:28:32 2019 No.12438499 >>12438490 he's not talking about psychology

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:33:49 2019 No.12438520 >>12438499 >fMRI fMRIs are fine, but as soon as you start correlating with self-reported bullshit it's dabbling into psychology bs

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:36:36 2019 No.12438532 >>12437707 Yes

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:42:09 2019 No.12438556

depends, but i wouldn't do it for "stress relief" or anything like that and i would take it as a life long endeavor if i were you. you may stumble upon a dark nights of the soul, weird ""energy"" phenomena, bringing partial insight that feels like a very bad depression and shit like that once you get there's no going back except by going through it which may take months or years

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:47:20 2019 No.12438577 >>12438490 >>12438520 You conveniently forgot behavior

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:48:12 2019 No.12438584 >>12438520 This, it can offer useful insights and allow us to say "hmmmm maybe this brain region is involved in mental imagery" etc but anyone who actually thinks it is definitively measuring or explaining consciousness is really dumb.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:48:53 2019 No.12438588 >>12438050 Thanks anon, I appreciate it.

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 14:52:51 2019 No.12438607

>>12438577
eh, i know what you mean and i could accept it in an ideal world, but seeing the current track record of reproducibility and repeatability crisis on psychology i can't take it as anymore than a modern myth to justify social engineering endeavors at this point, maybe it can change into a decent field at some point, but i doubt it

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 15:02:28 2019 No.12438674

Mastering Asana gets rid of Anatomy-consciousness. Scratching, heat, etc. supposedly involuntarily movements.
Mastering Pranayama gets rid of Physiological consciousness.
Practice Yama and Niyama get rid of Ethical consciousness.
Pratyhara gets rid of the Objective.
Dharana gets rid of the Subjective.
Dhyana gets rid of the Ego.
Samadhi gets rid of the Soul Impersonal.

Asana destroys the static body (Nama).
Pranayama destroys the dynamic body (Rupa).
Yama destroys the emotions. (Vedana).
Niyama destroys the passions.
Dharana destroys the perceptions (Sanna).
Dhyana destroys the tendencies (Sankharas).
Samadhi destroys the consciousness (Vinnanam).

All of these are properly Meditation. The ultimate objective is Samadhi.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 15:13:25 2019 No.12438720 >>12438556 Do you practice something? MCTB, TMI or something else?

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 15:40:06 2019 No.12438860
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>>12438720
i follow mostly TMI with some variations i use, i'm stuck somewhere between stages 4-5 so not very far, i've read MCTB but it isn't so much a system as it's a map of different stages and features of the mind you can encounter while practicing different systems, the author seems very autistic about fitting everything to those stages, i am not far enough to judge his descriptions so i'm open to them but open to them being inaccurate too

i think the author of MCTB follow mostly dry vipassana techniques detailed on Mahasi Sayadaw's The Progress of Insight which i haven't read yet, i am for the moment more inclined to balancing samatha with vipassana as detailed on TMI, something about autistically trying to see suffering+impermanence+noself in everything seems too much like setting a pre-framework instead of letting your practice see what it's there and judge once you've seen. but i haven't read enough and this may be my uneducated perception of dry-vipassana practices

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 16:03:04 2019 No.12438985

>>12438860
>the author seems very autistic about fitting everything to those stages
I have the same impression
>i think the author of MCTB follow mostly dry vipassana techniques detailed on Mahasi Sayadaw's The Progress of Insight
He did.
>something about autistically trying to see suffering+impermanence+noself in everything seems too much like setting a pre-framework instead of letting your practice see what it's there and judge once you've seen.
Seeing these things before actual insights happen can be very helpful, see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbqhyGbIkic&start_radio=1&list=RDWbqhyGbIkic
Especially the handouts in description if you don't have time.
I'm following TMI only. I had Jhanic experience after 3 months (peaking at solid 5 Stage) of practice and regressed into 3-4 Stage territory for a year albeit with many piti experiences anddd after 2 days of 5-6 hour mini-retreat I knew what I was doing wrong - too much effort and too little dilligence in setting intentions. Now I'm back in 4-5 Stage teriitory in half sits.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 16:39:27 2019 No.12439242 >>12437737 How the fuck is reading required to meditate like just focus your mind like nigga close your eyes

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:04:49 2019 No.12439444 >>12438674 so why meditate when you can just shoot yourself in the head?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:09:30 2019 No.12439465 >>12439444 because that doesn't end the ride

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:15:11 2019 No.12439495 >>12439444 don't want to become a hungry ghost

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:19:37 2019 No.12439516 >>12439465 how do you know?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:20:35 2019 No.12439523 >>12439516 it's the nature of the world

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:22:46 2019 No.12439531 >>12439523 that doesn't answer my question

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:27:51 2019 No.12439548

>>12439516
Because I've read eastern texts which establish it on the basis of logic. You would only benefit from them it you took eastern thought seriously enough to seek out and find them on your own though so I won't waste my time listing them (no offense).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:35:01 2019 No.12439594 >>12439548 I doubt any of their titles are longer than 248 characters. Surely if you were concerned with time rather than larping you would have named a few.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:35:47 2019 No.12439600 >>12439444 Why would I want to end my life if I can enjoy it thanks to meditation?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:41:55 2019 No.12439640 >>12439600 Anon's goal was the destruction of consciousness and I offered him a more efficient solution. If you're not interested, it doesn't apply to you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:51:43 2019 No.12439687 >>12439640 >destruction of consciousness but buddhist meditation is about maximizing consciousness, not destroying it

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:56:38 2019 No.12439712 File: 57 KB, 640x968, 1546475538842.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12437707 This is the best book you'll find. The author used to teach at UCLA (med school).

Anonymous Sat Jan 19 17:56:47 2019 No.12439714

>>12437782
This is the wrong approach and will make you worse in the long run. You can't just avoid your emotions and negative thoughts because that causes them to build, it might be fine day to day but the second you get trigger you won't be able to cope.

Meditation is not about avoiding your mind, it's about being aware of it and accepting it in its totality (negative parts and all). The awareness is the main benefit as most people don't know why they react the way they do.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 18:03:03 2019 No.12439750 I think meditating is about doing absolutely nothing and being okay with it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 18:06:18 2019 No.12439772 >>12439750 just be yourself dude

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 18:44:11 2019 No.12440001 >>12437707 >So, does meditation really work? If by "work" you mean "gets you possessed", yes. Buddhism and Hinduism are satanism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 20:10:28 2019 No.12440399 >>12440001 Elaborate please.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 23:24:01 2019 No.12441231 File: 29 KB, 930x1233, d4d016ad10b370a1f6891b7692c8be6724f3826957ec5a5a2b1a50c8d997cd2c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12440001 false witness is a sin

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 23:27:08 2019 No.12441240 >>12439687 It needs to be acknowledged that consensus on the exact goal is disputed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 19 23:29:25 2019 No.12441255 I wasn't going to post but why THE FUCK is this thread on page when it had two new posts!?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 00:17:38 2019 No.12441465 >>12437707 Yoga sutra commentary by hariharananda aranya

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 07:38:14 2019 No.12443042 >>12439712 This. Someone posted this a couple of days ago on /x/, amazing reading

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:22:14 2019 No.12444010

>>12440399
Demons hate you.
Demons create new, fucked up ways to move you further from God
You listen to them because lol Christians are DUMB.
When You're far enought from God you get obsessed and then Possessed.
When they can influence you deeply enought, they use you to catch others.

>>12441231
So I'm safe.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:24:00 2019 No.12444019 >>12444010 Protestantism was a mistake.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:26:00 2019 No.12444028 >>12444010 Lmaooooo Ur 2 dumb to be possessed

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:28:43 2019 No.12444042 >>12444028 imagine what the demon would have to work with

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:28:51 2019 No.12444044 >>12437707 look up hypnagogic hallucinations, they are more fun than meditating

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:36:08 2019 No.12444073

>>12444019
I'm Catholic
>>12444028
>lol christians are dumb!
>lollllll too dumb to be possessed.
Thank you for proving me right.
>>12444044
Alteres states in General free your brain up as real estate for Demons.
99% of hippies got possessed in the '60s. That's why Boomers today are worse than the plague.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:37:12 2019 No.12444080 >>12444042 We don't have to imagine, we just have to look at you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:41:50 2019 No.12444105 >>12444080 you can't see me

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 11:43:25 2019 No.12444111 >>12444105 I see you perfectly.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:10:05 2019 No.12444216 >>12444073 >I'm Catholic >Alteres states in General free your brain up as real estate for Demons. You can choose only one sweaty.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:16:09 2019 No.12444241 >>12444216 No I must choose both.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:17:59 2019 No.12444248 >>12437726 Why do you care about what (((science))) thinks

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:36:54 2019 No.12444353 >>12444241 witchcraft doesn't exist in catholicism

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:38:16 2019 No.12444359

>does science agree with meditation being a useful practice

Who cares, do you need a scientific theory to know that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening? They don't even know what to measure, so just start meditation and find out if it's useful for you or not.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:42:48 2019 No.12444378

>>12444353
The CCC says that all attempt at witchcraft are foolish: nothing works in the way It's said to work.
The CCC Also says that Demons can possess people and use the "occult" (wich is in itself bullshit wich doesn't work and wich they deliberately invented to fuck YOU over) to influence, obsess and finally possess them. It singles out "Trascendental Meditation" as one such methods and "New Age" as one such pseudo occult philosophies.
So no, You don't know shit.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:47:31 2019 No.12444410

>>12444378
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Here

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:53:11 2019 No.12444447 This catholicfag is amusing, but he is partially correct. While samadhi, concentration, and mindfulness do not lead to demonic possession, other meditation systems like Qi Gong and the 5 animal frolics indeed do.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:57:01 2019 No.12444468 >>12444447 They all do. Why would the chinese techniques of the Taoists be any more evil than the Indian? And If so how can one tell the difference? It's all demons. Doom is Eternal.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 12:58:32 2019 No.12444473 >>12439444 >>12439600 >>12439640 When somebody dies in India, or in the East in general, it is not uncommon to say that person has went to Samadhi. The yogi achieves samadhi while living, some achieve it only when they die.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:06:51 2019 No.12444520 File: 29 KB, 600x589, tumblr_lzjrsoo61q1r50h4io1_400.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >People that believe in demons and spirits

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:07:14 2019 No.12444522

Why not just pray instead? Deep trance prayer with mantras is no different and is much safer for your Soul. For example, a common practice among monks is to repeat the phrase, "Lord Jesus Christ, son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner," over and over as they go about their daily work.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:08:17 2019 No.12444526 >>12444520 You do realize that saying you don't believe in demons and spirits is one of the most surefire ways of ensuring that they will work through you?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:08:31 2019 No.12444530 File: 12 KB, 258x245, IMG_2893.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12444520 >>99% of humanity since forever Obviously spirits exist.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:09:14 2019 No.12444542

>>12444522
Oh, Lord, hide me from the secret council of the wicked and from these wretched words of iniquity.
For my enemies be against me,
And they have laid waste my soul in council together. Defend me from he that rises up against me.Save me from he that bears horns...Cloven hooves. For he lies in wait for my soul and desires to take it down a fiery pit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:09:36 2019 No.12444547 >>12444522 This

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:10:04 2019 No.12444551 Long term meditator here. Other states of consciousness are possible. They are blissful. Literally defined by actual bliss.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:14:20 2019 No.12444575 >>12444551 It won't feel so great when you're burning in hell. Think about that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:17:39 2019 No.12444599 how is buddhist zazen meditation any different from kenotic contemplation, you LARPing psueds?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:18:37 2019 No.12444608 You guys are biting the bait REAL HARD. This anon might not even be catholic. See how he mentioned the CCC out of nowhere and it does not even refer to meditation but to occultist practices only. Just stop giving him attention.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:20:43 2019 No.12444624 >>12444608 He is right though Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Taoism etc. may be interesting, but will only lead you to Hell.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:22:48 2019 No.12444640 >>12444575 Whats the problem?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:24:33 2019 No.12444654 >>12444575 But those states are heaven realms, and lead to what Jesus meant by Heaven. Check mate.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:24:38 2019 No.12444656 >>12444575 How is meditation sinful? Catholic and Orthodox spiritualists do it all the time and even encourage it. Unless you're a no fun allowed pr*testant.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:26:00 2019 No.12444665 >>12444656 Meditation is hedonistic and selfish act While you are meditating, you could be instead helping out the poor and needful or healing the sick

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:28:39 2019 No.12444680

>>12437707
If you are curious about or have a desire for meditation, you should absolutely try it. Resist the urge to go into it with any gaining ideas: all too often meditation is touted as a treatment for stress and mental illness, a way to better understand your inner life, or a means of cultivating wisdom. All these outcomes can occur, but if you begin meditation with a goal in mind to "become less stressed" or the like, your practice will inevitably fail you.

Since true meditation is impossible with any preconceptions, I recommend that you begin your practice without reading any books on the subject. Thinking that you need to read up on the subject before you undertake it carries with it a number of fatal misconceptions--namely, that you will be "wasting time" if you are meditating incorrectly, and that meditation is a "complicated" thing that requires specialized knowledge. In fact, you already know what mediation is. All you need to do is sit still and observe the sensations of your body, which includes the thoughts that come into your head. When you have a thought, let it pass without following it--if you try to hard to quiet your mind, the struggle will prevent you from reaching a meditative state. But once many thoughts have crossed your mind and faded, they will barely come at all. Your mind will be quiet without you needing to exert much effort at all.

In terms of posture, you should sit in a way that takes some effort to hold, but not so much that it becomes a challenge. Personally, I like the zazen approach: legs in a lotus postures, hands folded one on top of each other with thumbs touching on top, back straight, arms slightly out so there is space under your armpits, head slightly tilted down. Breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth. Concentrate on your breathing until all your other thoughts quiet. This is all you really need to know. Everything else you can discover on your own.

An important thing to realize is that not every meditative session will produce the same outcomes. Sometimes you will experience bodily pleasure. Sometimes you will have deep insight into your character. Sometimes your stress will melt away and you will be completely at peace. But to have any one of these experience as the goal of sitting will prevent you from reaching these states. If you sit down to meditate thinking, "I need to get rid of my stress," your gaining idea will overtake and pervert your attempt to eliminate all preconceptions, and instead of being entirely in the present, you will be trapped waiting for a future that will never come.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:28:41 2019 No.12444681

>>12444665
So any sort of personal time should be considered sinful? What denomination are you? That's absurd. What's stopping you from living off espresso and adderall to consistently help the poor and needy 24/7, because by that logic sleeping should be selfish and hedonistic as well?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:36:43 2019 No.12444720

>>12437707
>>12444680
Only after you have experienced several different forms of meditative states should you begin studying meditation. Not only will you have a personal knowledge of what the texts describe, you will be less likely to be misled by the cultural baggage they carry. It's so easy for a Westerner (which I assume you are) to be carried away by Oriental romanticism in studying Buddhism or Eastern religions, but if you are already somewhat experienced in meditation it is easier to see these teachers without the mystic shroud that time and distance have thrown over them for us moderns.

[This is not to say either that meditation is limited to Eastern religions. Meister Eckhart, Nicolas of Cusa, and St Teresa of Avila all have insights into meditation within the Christian tradition.]

So, just start meditating. The Buddha himself reiterated that the only way to judge his teachings was to try it for yourself. Just don't be misled by thinking that meditation is a "subject" that you study like any other.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:40:06 2019 No.12444732

>>12444681
I think the best way to summarize this symbolically is think of a man who has fallen into a fiery pit

The flames of hell are drawing closer every minute, but the man has ice cubes and blocks of ice. He could construct a bridge or ladder from those ice cubes, but instead, he brings those ice cubes closer to the flames of damnation to melt himself some cool and chilly water to bathe himself (Meditation). As the flames draw near, the man cools him off the icy water bath and chills himself more and more and melts more ice for himself.

But at some point, the water has evaporated. The ice has melted, the man understands that he has no escape from Hell. He has spend all his life from meditating and the ladder of the heaven has been barred from him. He boils alive in the waters that used to cool him off, but the torture will never end, for Hell and Damnation is eternal.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:40:17 2019 No.12444733 >>12444654 You're confusing prayer with Meditation.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:42:05 2019 No.12444740 >>12444608 Meditation is an occultist pratiche. Unless Of course You accept such a wide definition as to include Meister Eickart. In This case, Meditation is a bicicle.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:42:16 2019 No.12444742 >>12444680 5-star post.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 13:52:31 2019 No.12444792

Sometimes I find myself in situations where I think thoughts but struggle to grasp them in the moment. So basically I think of something to say but can't make the step to actually say it. So I am not thinking of something later which I could have said but actually thinking it at the time.

Will meditation help me to give more attention to my thoughts in the "moment".

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:35:25 2019 No.12445043 >>12444732 Are you Calvinist? Tbh I'm really at a loss for words. I don't understand what or whom you base your interpretation of scripture.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 14:48:13 2019 No.12445109 >>12444732 You are under the illusion that man and his salvation are two different things. This is false--though God gives us the means to attain salvation, this attainment comes from within rather than from on high.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:23:04 2019 No.12445922 File: 103 KB, 800x850, normie pepe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12444520 what if i believe in the existence of 4th dimensional beings?

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:49:00 2019 No.12446055

Meditation is bullshit. Yes, sitting in a low simulati environment and ruminating on stuff may will help you to get the perspective that you need. The problem is that, you can get the same effect by literally doing anything else. Meditation is just a hobby for boring and stupid people.

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:52:18 2019 No.12446069

The fact that a dedicated ascetic can maintain a level of internal tranquility that allows them to stoically bear the destruction, by fire, of their physical form is enough empirical evidence for me to conclude there has to be something to it. Imagine that willpower, to sit calmly while your nerve endings are screaming across your whole body and the heat scorches your lungs while you breathe and your eyes melt in their sockets and your brain cooks in your skull.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 17:54:01 2019 No.12446077 File: 597 KB, 1080x1920, Screenshot_20190120-174055.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12446069 forgot the picture

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:15:45 2019 No.12446197 >>12438367 What are some of the others?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 18:21:50 2019 No.12446234 >>12446197 Shitposting.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:14:34 2019 No.12446834 >>12437707 Sort of. If you believe anon, virtually anything can work. Beware of McTemples.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:45:05 2019 No.12446987 >oh wow a meditation thread on /lit/ >it has over 100 replies >click on thread because im curious about their opinions >a retarded catholic derails the thread almost immediately >most of the posts are connected to the catholic dimwit thanks

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 20:55:24 2019 No.12447020 >>12446987 you´re welcome

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:11:41 2019 No.12447080 >>12437707 work on what ?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 21:40:42 2019 No.12447219 >>12444520 >ignores that Buddha talked about them unironically b-b-but I'll take the meditation though!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 22:17:20 2019 No.12447395 >>12444468 >>12444410 >>12444378 You seem troubled. I will pray for you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 22:20:21 2019 No.12447402 File: 333 KB, 451x469, 1446156570646.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>12447020 >´

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 22:26:38 2019 No.12447435 >>12444073 Your entire hierarchy of spiritual leaders are pedophiles lmao.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 20 22:28:20 2019 No.12447441 >>12447020 PAPACY IS PEDO BEAR

Anonymous Sun Jan 20 22:39:04 2019 No.12447481

>>12446197
Fasting, selfless and absolute devotion to a deity/symbol, mantra-repetition (this is big in Sufism) and similar practices associated with musical instruments. There are also specific meditative practices taught in classical Hindu yoga which differ from Buddhist meditation (which is not the hatha yoga taught in the west!). There are also specific doctrines like Advaita Vedanta for example which teach that meditation is at best only a method of training and purifying the mind, but that actual liberation comes from knowledge which is usually either imparted by a teacher or is the result of reflection on scriptures that one just read, that one actively attains liberation and bliss through knowledge rather than a passive experience of waiting for it while meditating, this aquisition of knowledge is seen as dependent on and simultaneous with the removal of ignorance. This idea is exemplified in Advaita texts like the Ashtavakra Gita which enjoin the reader to meditate on specific ideas at first but by the end are downplaying meditation with such lines as "Give up meditation completely but don't let the mind hold on to anything. You are free by nature so what will you achieve by forcing the mind - 15.20", "You may, as a learned man, indulge in wealth activity and meditation, but your mind will still long for that which is the cessation of desire and beyond all goals - 16.2", "He whose mind does not set out to meditate or act, still meditates and acts but without an object - 18.31" and "There are no rules, dispassion, renunciation or meditation for one who is pure receptivity by nature, and admits no knowable form of being - 18.71".

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 03:59:12 2019 No.12448539

>>12444680
I'll add to this, for first timers, to help quiet your thoughts, visualize a lawnmower blade spinning and whenever a thought comes, it just obliterates the thought. After a little while, begin to distance yourself from this visualization and you should be able quiet your thoughts for a little while. I'm not talking about quieting your thoughts for hours, maybe 2-3 minutes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:04:44 2019 No.12448554 >>12447402 What is that?

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:11:31 2019 No.12448572

>>12447435
No they aren't. It's more probable to encounter a pedophile in your beloved public education apparatus than in the Church, by orders of magnitude.
Also, the whole muslim religion is made of gay pedophiles but nobody attacks them Because It's cultural.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:13:07 2019 No.12448576 >>12447395 No, YOU are troubled. I quites the CCC directly and showed that I'm right, as a Catholic, to hold my positions. If You're Catholic as well and Don't agree with the CCC You're wrong and will go to hell.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:14:10 2019 No.12448580 >>12447020 You're not me. Fuck You. >>12446987 You're welcome.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:40:21 2019 No.12448648 >>12446077 He will surely need that skill in hell.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:43:56 2019 No.12448658 >>12447219 >Buddha was omniscient and knew more about external world than we know now

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:46:43 2019 No.12448665 >>12448658 Buddha was shit-scient. he knew shit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 04:57:22 2019 No.12448685 >>12448658 >Buddha was omniscient Yes, he also had other wicked super powers. He could give Jesus a run for his money. Read the suttas.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 05:07:31 2019 No.12448699

>>12448685
You know What would have happened If Jesus and Buddha met?
Buddha would have fallen to his knees, crying like a little kid, calling Jesus his Lord and making all his disciples convert instantly.
It is What happened when Jesus visited Hell and took all the virtuous pagans out with Him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 07:27:30 2019 No.12448976 >>12444599 how should i know? i'm not a slav

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 07:48:44 2019 No.12449044 >>12448658 >Buddha was omniscient he literally was if you believe in buddhism

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:15:03 2019 No.12449097 >>12444680 Based and satoripilled

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:19:34 2019 No.12449112 >>12448685 >>12449044 >Being devout Mahayanist Also from experience of people who attained high level of concentration siddhis are either meditation experiences misinterpreted or Jedi mind tricks at most.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:24:16 2019 No.12449124

>>12444680
All of that is 100% good advices to take.
I still want to share that for me I like to juste sit on a folded pillow with my leg simply crossed, and my hand just resting on my knees. You see, nothing special, because I find it easier to concentrate when I do nothing special with my body.
Also I light up a candle and try concentrate on the flame, that way I can fall in some kind of meditative trance more easily.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:35:31 2019 No.12449158

>>12449112
the buddha using his eye to see things far away is also on theravada scripture
> 21. “Then I listened to the Brahmā’s pleading, and out of compassion for beings I surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha. Surveying the world with the eye of a Buddha, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach, and some who dwelt seeing fear in blame and in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses that are born and grow in the water thrive immersed in the water without rising out of it, and some other lotuses that are born and grow in the water rest on the water’s surface, and some other lotuses that are born and grow in the water rise out of the water and stand clear, unwetted by it; so too, surveying the world with the eye of a Buddha, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach, and some who dwelt seeing fear in blame and in the other world. Then I replied to the Brahmā Sahampati in stanzas:

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:38:19 2019 No.12449166 >>12449158 >and some who dwelt seeing fear in blame and in the other world catholic shitposting predicted by the buddha

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 08:52:52 2019 No.12449220

>>12449112
It's right there in the Pali canon, broski.
>Also from experience of people who attained high level of concentration siddhis are either meditation experiences misinterpreted or Jedi mind tricks at most.
Retards on forums like dharmaoverground don't have high level attainments. Actual high level practitioners don't hang out on the internet.
The hesitation towards siddhis is typical Western nonsense. Buddhist cosmology is fundamentally incompatible with materialist Western thought anyway, superpowers are the last thing that's unbelievable about Buddhism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 09:24:58 2019 No.12449359 >>12449220 based how to attain a high level of development?

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 09:27:56 2019 No.12449373

>>12449158
I'm aware of that. Hallucinations in deep meditative states being helpful doesn't make them true. Truth of cited experience isn't (and wasn't in the times of Buddha) even verifiable.
What's important in Buddhas teaching is whether they lead to Enlightenment and if it's good as advertised.
>>12449220
>Actual high level practitioners don't hang out on the internet.
and the reason is? If their experiences match suttas (like descriptions of Jhanas or Fetters lost on gaining Enlightenment) then I see no reason for them being wrong.
>The hesitation towards siddhis is typical Western nonsense. Buddhist cosmology is fundamentally incompatible with materialist Western thought anyway, superpowers are the last thing that's unbelievable about Buddhism.
Sure buddy, let's throw everything we know and mindlessly accept scripture without verification. There's Sutta condemning LARPing though.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 09:32:00 2019 No.12449393

>>12438520
I suspect sticking someones head in a loud rhythmically noisy machine is problematic when you are trying to investigate what's going on when someones meditating. Especially as most experienced practitioners will have carefully cultivated an particular posture during their sitting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 09:45:34 2019 No.12449444 >>12449393 Most experienced in cultivating concentration can meditate in any posture and can easily ignore external distractions. In deep Jhanas they stop being aware of external sensations at all.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 09:49:14 2019 No.12449457 >>12438050 this actually changed my life wholeheartedly recommend

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 12:28:35 2019 No.12450155 >>12448572 >other people are pedos too i see catholic larper #3,000,000 has had his slice of rationalization today

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 12:34:10 2019 No.12450181

>>12449373
>What's important in Buddhas teaching is whether they lead to Enlightenment and if it's good as advertised.
but that depends on Buddha's word and achievements being true, if you think it's just feeling good internally then there's no point to enlightenment
>There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 12:41:06 2019 No.12450216 >>12437707 Read Siddharta.

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 14:58:08 2019 No.12450987

>>12449359
Keep to the precepts (pseuds on the internet always conveniently ignore this step), practice mindfulness constantly (not the meme kind) and sit for several hours a day in meditation. Do this for a decade, and if you don't meme yourself into self-delusion you might begin to approach the highest levels of attainment.
>>12449359
>If their experiences match suttas
They don't, but they think they do. That's the problem.
>Sure buddy, let's throw everything we know and mindlessly accept scripture without verification.
Expect that's literally what Buddhism is about. The Buddha very, very, very explicitly states that he is 100% right and everybody else is 100% wrong, because he is the most exalted being that has ever existed above any and all gods, and that the path laid out by him is the only right one. Moreover, Buddhism requires you to axiomatically accept it's cosmology (all the various realms of existence with all their inhabitants and rebirth in these realms) or else there is absolutely no point in Buddhism because you'd be left with Reddit-tier retardation like 'Buddhism is psychological'. If you're willing to believe in angels and demons,heaven and hell, you might as well believe in magic too.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 15:01:19 2019 No.12451005 >>12450987 >because you'd be left with Reddit-tier retardation like 'Buddhism is psychological'. most of the people who post the mind illuminated book on lit seem to think this desu

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 21 15:05:36 2019 No.12451027 >>12450987 thank you anon, guess I'm on the right track

Anonymous Mon Jan 21 15:21:31 2019 No.12451137

>>12450181
>>There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.
There would be no cessation of suffering without it.
>>12450987
>They don't, but they think they do.
They do though.
>because you'd be left with Reddit-tier retardation like 'Buddhism is psychological'
So Enlightenment is not about practicioner's mind? experiencing Three Characteristics in perfect Samadhi won't get me anywhere if I won't believe in realm of Pretas?
>>12451005
Attainment won't teleport you out of reality sweaty.

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