/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11941787]

what is a good argument against antinatalim? I have never come acroas a good argument against it

[Anonymous No.11941805]

>>11941787
>if, stance = true, 'counterarguments' = false. Output, <<"Conclusion, all counter arguements are invalid">>
>I have never come acroas a good argument against it

[Anonymous No.11941811]

I can't control muh dick, that's, meat portals have the numbers so is loss anyway.

[Anonymous No.11941832]

>>11941805
the npc: posts npc meme no matter what context anybody cares about
the non-npc: actually responds to conversation sincerely

[Anonymous No.11941854]

>>11941832
If you unironically have never "come across a good argument", you are already biased. Even if you disagree with counter arguments, you often find good ones. You're someone who reacts emotionally and discounts things when he shouldn't.

[Anonymous No.11941877]

>>11941787
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

[Anonymous No.11941887]

>>11941877
that is just a myth that is used to justify breeding. post an actual argument.
>>11941854
>>11941805
post an argument

[Anonymous No.11941895]

The Bible

[Anonymous No.11941954]

>>11941787
life aint that bad

[Anonymous No.11941986]

>>11941787
Spreading your gens, the only reason for your existance. If your gens make you think you should not breed, they are probably fucked, so stay that way. The eugenic society says "Thank you".

[Anonymous No.11941993]

>>11941787
Life isn't that bad for most people. It's not for you to decide whether a person should live or not. If a person doesn't like life he always has a way out.

[Anonymous No.11942009]

>>11941986
The goal of every living is immortality, breeding is just a cheap cope.

[Anonymous No.11942015]

>>11941993
Life isn't bad, yet, continue to breed and you'll see.

[Anonymous No.11942022]

>>11941787
the only good argument is for good looking and intelligent people. im sorry anon, you are being discriminated against by your own brain. on the upside, you'll forget about it in a few minutes.

[Anonymous No.11942054]

>>11941877
This

[Anonymous No.11942058]

>>11942009
>The goal of every living is immortality
Cringe. Immortality is counter evolutionary, you retard. You have to die so better copies of yourself can live otherwise the world would be shat up full with eternal amöba.

Every living thing has the goal to reproduce, not live eternally. You can't accept this because even the basic fact of your existance disqualifies your antinatal nonsense. Speak about cope, my Kerl.

[Anonymous No.11942073]

>>11941887
>The word of God is just a myth.

[Anonymous No.11942079]

>>11942058
Cope.

[Anonymous No.11942110]

>>11942079
Well, if you call biological facts and religious justification cope, it's pretty clear that you don't really want explanations why anti-natalism is but a mental disorder and natures way of culling the weak.

[Anonymous No.11942141]

>>11942110
Is pretty obvious you post this >>11942073
so there's no point discussing it further, you are some pathetic "white" boy, kissless and hugless that think being christian will make him "based" and "redpilled", you don't go to university because you think is "commie propaganda" and you just parrot some pseudo science cope for your inherent inferiority.

the demiurge is a nigger.

[Anonymous No.11942153]

>>11942141
>Is pretty obvious you post this >>11942073
Wrong, pic related.

>you are some pathetic "white" boy, kissless and hugless that think being christian will make him "based" and "redpilled"
Wrong, I'm a married slavette agnostic.

>you don't go to university because you think is "commie propaganda" and you just parrot some pseudo science cope for your inherent inferiority.
Wrong, I studied molecular biology.

Just accept that you're biological waste.

[Anonymous No.11942160]

>>11942153
Point proven, fragile masculinity.

[Anonymous No.11942161]

>>11941787
Suffering is good. That is all.

[Anonymous No.11942170]

>>11942160
>those are the people advocating and living the unreproductive life

[Anonymous No.11942228]

>>11941787
You can’t know whether or not the baby in question would prefer to never have lived at all.

[Anonymous No.11942231]

>>11941954
unironically this

[Anonymous No.11942232]

>>11942228
Isn't about morals you curtain.

[Anonymous No.11942240]

Life denying garbage to cope with their shitty life thus other lives will be shitty. Or they unironically buy into the overpopulation meme.

[Anonymous No.11942242]

>>11942240
ahyuk ahyuk

[Anonymous No.11942249]

>>11942141

Kek so butblasted over litteraly truth, you have to start with the insults. Kind of pathetic

[Anonymous No.11942255]

>>11942249
you tell them cletus

[Anonymous No.11942263]

>>11942228
>but I can know the ohter way!
Antinatalism may be unjustified shite but so is popping out children. The strongest live beyond their mere genetic links (thats what I tell myself constantly so I dont lose it from the retarded urge to mate)

On the real though i cant wait to laugh sadly at you all when you start complaining yet again

[Anonymous No.11942320]

>>11941787
>what is a good argument against antinatalim?
Everything good that can be experienced by a human.

[Anonymous No.11942325]

>>11942141
Epic cringe

[Anonymous No.11942330]

>>11941787
You can't consistently defend antinatalism without defending suicide. Then all of the arguments against suicide apply, though I can think of none.

[Anonymous No.11942505]

>>11941877
>buying into the materialist jew god when even the NT says to renounce all of this

[Anonymous No.11942530]

>>11942330
>You can't consistently defend antinatalism without defending suicide
Commiting suicide to escape suffering is just submitting to the will to life which is causing the very suffering you are trying to escape. You can live without adding more suffering to the world.

[Anonymous No.11942554]

>>11941787
Multiple ways.
First is the afterlife, if you don't have kids that don't have any chance getting into it.

Second is choice, if someone really dislikes life they can always commit suicide.

[Anonymous No.11942563]

>>11942141
TrueRationalAtheistGamer is really schooling us with real science and atheism guys.

[Anonymous No.11942565]

>>11942554
>suicide
Stopped reading there.

[Anonymous No.11942569]

>>11942563
>video games
point proven.

[Anonymous No.11942571]

>>11942263
The other way gives people a choice, you fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.11942574]

>>11942565
What's wrong with suicide?

>>11942530
Why should you care about the suffering of the world?

[Anonymous No.11942576]

Antinatalism presupposes two things: that suffering is bad, and that suffering is inavoidable.

[Anonymous No.11942577]

>>11942576
>denying a noble truth

[Anonymous No.11942588]

Surveys show that the majority of people are generally happy with the conditions of life, despite the inevitable suffering they face at times. Just because some depressed philosophers going through existential crises see no positive value in existence, it doesn't mean that the average joe feels that way

[Anonymous No.11942600]

>>11941787
Hmm I've never had to think about this before, lemme collect my thoughts and...

>>11942141

...oh.

>pic related

[Anonymous No.11942604]

>>11942588
>the majority
Point proven, the majority doesn't know

[Anonymous No.11942610]

>>11942600
No I think he's really just autistic.

[Anonymous No.11942612]

>>11942009
>>11942058
There is no goal. Just that the genes that pass themselves on were passed on. Stop trying to jump the is ought gap so flippantly.

[Anonymous No.11942623]

Looks like natalist bros don't really have an argument beyond muh dick and muh demiurge told me so.

[Anonymous No.11942635]

>>11942623
You ignored half the arguments.

[Anonymous No.11942636]

>>11941993
>It's not for you to decide whether a person should live or not
Not exactly a natalist argument...

[Anonymous No.11942641]

>>11942635
>i-isn't really that bad tfw no trad gf
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHA

[Anonymous No.11942649]

>>11942641
If it's so bad why not kill yourself?

[Anonymous No.11942661]

>>11941877
Why are you taking heed to something a goat herder wrote like 2000 years ago? C'mon.

[Anonymous No.11942676]

>>11942661
Why do you believe in Ecuildian geometry if it was made by some guy 3000 years ago.

[Anonymous No.11942680]

>>11942641
What are your arguments against suffering=bad? Before any other argument against natalism or antinatalism can be addressed, the concept and qualities of suffering have to br defined first.

[Anonymous No.11942688]

>>11942649
If nothing is tying you down besides your will to live, you're not living much of a life either. Plenty of reasons someone would go on living even when they feel life isn't worth living

[Anonymous No.11942696]

>>11942676
You don't need belief for that

[Anonymous No.11942698]

>>11942688
>Plenty of reasons someone would go on living even when they feel life isn't worth living

Like what exactly?

[Anonymous No.11942699]

>>11942680
>>11942649

[Anonymous No.11942704]

>>11942696
Prove the parallel postulate

[Anonymous No.11942711]

>>11942699
>There no good arguments because I ignore the good arumgents.

200000 IQ

[Anonymous No.11942713]

>>11942641
You can't disprove it though. The foundation of anti-natalism is that life isn't worth living and that's incorrect for most people.

[Anonymous No.11942716]

>>11942698
Family and friends you'd hurt, people you need to provide for or haveany sense of responsibility for

[Anonymous No.11942717]

>>11942711
I'm solipsistic btw so your (mine) statement is true.
>>11942713
Wrong, but I'm not going to explain myself.

[Anonymous No.11942723]

>>11942717
>Wrong, but I'm not going to explain myself.

[Anonymous No.11942731]

>>11942716

If you family and friends want you to have a kid, do you have a moral imperative to do so?

Even so, why should you care about the suffering of your family and friends?

[Anonymous No.11942737]

>>11942717
>solipsistic
That's not what solipsism means you retard.

[Anonymous No.11942744]

>>11942737
It was unrelated to my post, I'm also an ascetic hedonist btw (this is also unrelated).

[Anonymous No.11942745]

>>11942704
Those are accepted as postulates or axioms within his theory and the theorems derived from them are true without the need of belief. I'm not a mathematical realist, which would be something requiring belief. Some phenomena are better described using hyperbolic geometry, so what? Still the same axiom and theorem shit. Euclid is "right" not because you can use his geometry to model our world but because of his method of proof.

[Anonymous No.11942747]

Reposting what I said in a similar thread on r9k.

It doesn't make sense to reason about the suffering/happiness of guaranteed non-existent people, such as the ones you are "sparing" by not procreating.

I say "guaranteed" non-existent people in order to pre-empt the objection that we routinely make moral considerations for non-existent, namely future generations affected by climate change. The difference is that although those people don't exist yet, we can be reasonably certain that *some* people will exist in the near future, and that their basic needs won't be radically different from our own.

This kind of reasoning is altogether different from talking about the lack of suffering caused by not having children. Suffering only matters because it's happening *to* someone. It has no significance outside the context of the being experiencing it.

That said, I have no plans on having children. But not because it would be some horrible moral wrong to inflict existence upon hypothetical potential children.

[Anonymous No.11942752]

>>11942747
This is ignoring the fact that meat portals are not real, I'm an eunuch btw.

[Anonymous No.11942765]

>>11942731
Caring for your loved ones doesn't mean you have an imperative to follow any of their wishes just to make them happy, obviously

[Anonymous No.11942777]

>>11942765
So if you agree that is case, why not commit suicide?

[Anonymous No.11942782]

>>11942745
I'm asking you to prove the postulates, I don't care if they're accepted.

[Anonymous No.11942784]

>>11942777
I just told you "ANY" of their wishes. Don't you have common sense, like anyone else? You'd run an errand for your mother, right? Would you also rob a bank? Do you think the pain of losing a brother or a son is anywhere near the pain "oh gee I wish you had a kid, anon"?

[Anonymous No.11942788]

>>11942777
Why don't you ? if you support the idea of natalism ?

[Anonymous No.11942793]

>>11942782
Are you retarded? Are you saying you need faith to accept axioms and do math from there?

[Anonymous No.11942799]

>>11942574
>Why should you care about the suffering of the world?
The more the world suffers, the more you suffer. If the possibility of avoiding suffering in life exists and you kys anyways to give up you are just a little pussy bitch boy quitter. Real men commit suicide to deny the will, not submit to it.

[Anonymous No.11942804]

>>11941787
>I have never come acroas a good argument against it
This is how you spot a pseud. Claiming that you've never heard a good argument for something is a clear sign that you're either lying or have done no research on the topic in question.

[Anonymous No.11942812]

>>11942784
Common sense is an illusion. But I'll let it slide for a sec. Do you plan on killing yourself the minute your close family dies?
>>11942788
Why do people who value living not want to commit suicide? Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.11942822]

>>11942793
What do you think a postulate is?

[Anonymous No.11942824]

>>11942804
There's no need to argument against a truth, post body.
>>11942812
>valuing life
>breeding
That's like saying you are fond of your gnome yet ingesting shit ironicallyt, posting body.

[Anonymous No.11942827]

>>11942799
Why should I even care about personal suffering?

[Anonymous No.11942834]

>>11942824
>That's like saying you are fond of your gnome yet ingesting shit ironicallyt, posting body.

What the fuck are you even trying to say, this is like trying to translate retard into normal english.

Did you know what people wanna make more of the things they value, it's a big shocker you inhuman baboon.

[Anonymous No.11942844]

>>11942834
Projecting you meat portal ? post body.

[Anonymous No.11942864]

>>11942822
At this point I don't know if I'm talking to someone who's underage or just a lost cause. I'll spell it out for you: we both know that postulate can't be proven and that there are other mathematics that don't use his postulate, which we would today call an axiom. That doesn't mean you are reading someone who is out-dated: Euclid is interesting as a mathematician anyway, because of the rigour of his proofs. You don't need belief to read mathematics

[Anonymous No.11942870]

>>11942844
This is advanced autism.


But sure, now post yours fatty :)

[Anonymous No.11942877]

>>11942864
The point is, why should you trust axioms. They are, by defintion, improvable.

[Anonymous No.11942881]

>>11941787
Morality is just 'muh feels' and feelings are not truth-apt.

Antinatalism is ultimately dependant on the feeling that life is not worth creating and natalists feel differently.

[Anonymous No.11942903]

>>11942844
Aww is tons of fun scared.

[Anonymous No.11942905]

>>11942604
There is no 'knowing' subjective value judgements. If some pleb thinks his life is alright that is the same as his life being alright, even if some Jewish professor screams at him that it is not because of sophistry.

[Anonymous No.11942935]

>>11942870
My bmi is actually 16 sweatie, I have bullimia ;)

[Anonymous No.11942972]

>>11942935
Post it :)

[Anonymous No.11943003]

>>11941787

I should paste the same reply every time:

Antinatalists are only against life inasmuch as it hurts, but otherwise affirm life's neutral or "good" aspects, and would wholly affirm all of it if their lives or life in general only consisted of them. They think life is bad because of work or disease, instead of correctly ascertaining such things as mere byproducts of life's categorical evil.

[Anonymous No.11943013]

>>11942972

[Anonymous No.11943053]

>what is a good argument against antinatalim?
Open individualism. Your existence was inevitable and the extinction is impossible, so even if AN is true on an ethical ground - it is vacuous

[Anonymous No.11943066]

Most of these are arguments against sad boys who might take up this position not antinatalism

[Anonymous No.11943113]

>>11941787
I don’t need a rational argument to have children

[Anonymous No.11943248]

why would anyone want kids and bring them up in this world anyway?

[Anonymous No.11943254]

I don't know every antinatalist talking point, but here are my answers to some of them.

>Life isn't exclusively suffering, and even so, there is meaning to life beyond sensations such as pain and pleasure.

>Evolution is a framework within which there is a capability for success or failure resulting in a muted immortality of genetic legacy.

>Objective, but non-absolute morality is derived from evolutionary viability of actions and traits.

>Eugenics can vastly reduce inheritable diseases

>Antinatalism is only appealing to those intelligent and/or sad enough to get past the "yuck" factor of taking an anti-life position, so in addition to not being actionable on a large scale, it keeps said intelligent people sad, if they were sad to begin with, by denying them families and descendants, which are usually powerfully emotionally positive and life-stabilizing, if the person can keep his or her family together in the current shitshow of familial destruction.

>Antinatalism is dysgenic with regards to intelligence (although possibly eugenic with regards to vitality) and self-defeating - because it decreases the fertility of said intelligent people and ensures that a smaller portion of the population would be interested in antinatalism with every passing generation.

[Anonymous No.11943263]

>>11943254
Mortal cope

[Anonymous No.11943386]

>>11943263
Mortality isn't as big a deal as people think it is.

[Anonymous No.11943400]

>>11943254
>Life isn't exclusively suffering, and even so, there is meaning to life beyond sensations such as pain and pleasure.
I think this is a straw man of antinatalist arguments. They never say that life is exclusively suffering, just that humans have a propensity to remember and be affected by negative experiences way more than by positive experiences. Basically the bad outweighs the good

[Anonymous No.11943407]

>>11943003
Post it

[Anonymous No.11943529]

>>11943400
The "life is exclusively suffering" could maybe be a strawman. I didn't intend that, but I am under the impression that antinatalists generally think life is meaningless except perhaps for the considerations of physical and emotional sensations antinatalism is based upon.

People can more easily recall negative experiences, but that's not the same as actually having negative experiences, and with a good sense of humor a lot of negative experiences can become funny and take the edge off of the negativity of the memory. Extreme trauma is a bit of a different animal, but those are by definition exceptionally negative experiences. Causing negative experiences is disincentivized socially with punishments such as social ostracization, imprisonment, or death. If a person thinks that there is still too much negative experience, advocating for more severe laws and punishments makes more sense than trying to convince people to give up on reproduction - because it has a better chance of working and it is less of a burdensome position to hold, if holding an antinatalist position causes social ostracism and mental suffering, which I believe it does.

[Anonymous No.11943586]

I’ll give the patrician answer, pay attention now boys:

Antinatalism is based on the flawed assumption of becoming.

[Anonymous No.11943637]

>>11943248
Seriously dude it makes no sense at all

[Anonymous No.11943652]

>>11943637
are you being sarcastic

[Anonymous No.11943654]

having kids and a loyal wife leads to a happier life.

there's a point where conservative christians live happier lifes filled with meaning, but atheist live solitary lives of misery until they commit suicide.

having a kid and raising it is the purpose of life for a male, while spending time on garbage like games, anime and materialism leads to a vapid life without meaning and only leads to suffering.

anti natalists suffer because they contradict what it means to be a human.

[Anonymous No.11943662]

>>11943248
So this is how it ends, not with a bang but with a fap

[Anonymous No.11943663]

>>11943586
elaborate

[Anonymous No.11943671]

I don't like niggers, but I hate Jews more.

[Anonymous No.11943680]

>>11943654
Very nearly based.

[Anonymous No.11943687]

>>11943654
>conservative christians
my family is filled with these types and they are paranoid, controlling, and have beaten their wives.

[Anonymous No.11943699]

>>11943663
Becoming is an illusion and being can’t become non-being and non-being can’t become being.

Antinatalism is founded on incorrect ontology.

[Anonymous No.11943732]

>>11943687
Most women understand that they deserve to be beaten from time to time. How else could a wife be punished? I suppose you could lock them in a cage or something, but that's also illegal.
https://youtu.be/bcGttKu2DIk

[Anonymous No.11943782]

>>11941787
Anti natalism is a spook made for self defeating men

[Anonymous No.11943828]

>>11943782
Anti natalism is gay

[Anonymous No.11944603]

>>11943662
kek

[Anonymous No.11944609]

>>11943671
unironically this

[Anonymous No.11944627]

>>11943248
>>11943637
Because kids are a good way to give your life meaning and purpose

[Anonymous No.11944640]

>>11944627
t. sad dad

[Anonymous No.11944955]

>>11941787
We usually just prefer to let you sort yourselves out with time, one way or the other.

[Anonymous No.11944960]

>>11944640
t. sadder kid

[Anonymous No.11945157]

>>11942935
Post your body

[Anonymous No.11945498]

>>11941787
there is none, because it would have kept you from being born.

[Anonymous No.11946352]

The core premise of antinatalism is that the world is primarily based on suffering, so not helping in the process of creating a child is a selfless act. But you're basically allowing the abstraction of suffering that prevents you from creating life. In a non-memetic way, the view that life is suffering is a spook and prevents you from enacting your ego. Children are essentially a direct method of leaving a legacy of your values through your genes and teachings. So even if you agree that life is terrible and not worth experiencing, there is no reason not to condemn another person to that fate if you choose to do so.
And if you disagree that life is suffering, that you can achieve happiness while alive, you have no reason to think you're condemning a person to suffer. Then it becomes an argument for not having children since they take a lot of effort to raise. There's no reason to assume that reality is just suffering as an excuse to avoid raising a child.